For the sake of discussion, a 'trash mob' is anything that will usually die without posing any credible threat to a player (let's say solo or duo).
If that's not clear enough, think 'anything that can be killed by a bot' (for people who think bots are simplistic, and for anyone else who knows that they aren't, I figure the first definition is enough).
Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.
Every mob can 'become this' if you get high enough level over it, but in at least some games, you also don't get any exp for them. So assume that the game 'intends' for you to kill them.
Thanks.
The issue always revolves around credible threat.
If they can kill you with enough time or enough numbers they can be a fun obstacle to navigate while also being a good source of common loot. Examples would be Classic WoW and Eve.
If they can't kill you they become a tiresome obstacle to what you'd rather be doing. Examples would be current SWTOR and FFXIV.
Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.
I once seen a tiny rat. I had no idea if is killable or not. when I killed it I got an over damage achievement. Why the achievement was there and why they add rats in cities which can be killed?
Maybe some mobs become trash after expansions are added or because they implement them and before release they just change what they drop and whatever.
Diablo is based on the concept that you kill many weak NPCs or you just run through them.
If a map is large, with stronger mobs you would slow down your travel time.
With no mobs at all, you would have an empty world unless is populated by NPCs doing their stuff.
Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.
Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.
Mob placement solves that though. And with fewer stronger mobs instead of groups of weaker ones you need even less space for those mobs, so you have more space for player movement.
Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.
Mob placement solves that though. And with fewer stronger mobs instead of groups of weaker ones you need even less space for those mobs, so you have more space for player movement.
I was talking in general not in the context of AoC with the reduced TTK for average mobs.
Trash does not mean average. Average is at the middle. Trash would be the lowest level or filler which maybe does not even attack players. Does not take space away from player movement.
But yes, from the perspective of players who optimize to speed run to get to some end goal, anything which they avoid is worthless to them.
One thing occurred to me is that some players like to RP. Maybe the presence of such trash mobs help them.
Map size, travel mechanic, space needed, map emptiness are design aspects which are decided in advance to fit the vision of developers. Different developers and players have different opinions.
In some games every single mob has to serve one or more purposes, to make the game more complex. Can be that nothing is added just for immersion because that's how they want it to be. Others prefer to spend time on little useless things too just for immersion, which some players appreciate.
If your class is bad in single target or brings low value in party in PvE, but you can do AoE dmg, then you can farm packs of trash mobs. Sel Mahum Training Grounds it is.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Good trash mobs: Minions type monsters in D&D 3rd 4th edition and up.
What make the minions interesting are that, aside from having only 1 hp, they hit about as hard a normal monsters, they have about the same armour class as normal monsters, they occupy space on the grid and so they interfere with the players' movement (blocking or attacks of opportunities) and they can give allies bonus such as flanking... And players must spend actions, spells, short rests, potions, etc. because of them.
In short: even with 1 hp, their defence and potential damage make them a real threat.
If that kind of purpose was to be transposed to a MMO, we'd have interesting trash mobs. Sentries and patrols who run back to get more when they aggro instead of joining the fray. Healers staying at range. DPSs hitting as hard as the rest but with lower HPs...
I'd be a happy raccoon with those.
edit: had to open some old books to make a correction...
Can we agree that for example most if not ALL Goblins in the Fighter Presentation are probably on "Trashmob-Level" ?? You all know what this means, right ?
Sometimes -> the so called Trashmobs are just the many, many Mobs that fill the World. And for a good Reason. We would all bore of such a grandiose, vast World - if it wouldn't be filled with Mobs we can interact with.
The Minotauer-Questgiver. Many of his hostile Clan Members a bit further,
i wish for a living World populated by many Beings i can challenge or do Quests for.
And Trashmobs are the Reason why for Example a "Goblin Camp" or Ruin filled with Goblins, shouldn't be empty. Plus i personally would love Area's i can not clear completely alone. Like there is so many "Trash(lol) Mobs" that i alone would either have a nigh Impossible time, or just no way of challenging them alone.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Typically Goblins are not trash when you first leave the starting areas.
And then once they begin to start being "trash" you've moved to a new zone.
Originally, trash mobs were the ones that are around to distract you from the boss.
Where I've seen some helpful trash mobs is leading up to some boss fights. I've always liked when these creatures replicate boss abilities or mechanics, or a simplified version of them. I've found that it helps build muscle memory for when it's time to interact with that boss. Sometimes that's the only way my guildies will bother learning the mechanics 🙃
Does anybody else see these mechanics, or find them helpful in MMOs and/or RPGs that you enjoy?
Typically Goblins are not trash when you first leave the starting areas.
And then once they begin to start being "trash" you've moved to a new zone.
Originally, trash mobs were the ones that are around to distract you from the boss.
In World of WoW-Token Craft -> pretty much all Monsters roaming around Instances and especially Raid Instances between the Bosses are usually called Trash Mobs by many Members of the Groups.
What would you think of those ? Fitting Description or might they be off ? Because i mean also Mobs that run around in Mob Patrols and are not necessarily anywhere near any Boss Mob.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 17
I think the mobs roaming around Raids that are not the boss and the bosses dukes fit my description of a Trash Mob.
Yes.
Where I've seen some helpful trash mobs is leading up to some boss fights. I've always liked when these creatures replicate boss abilities or mechanics, or a simplified version of them. I've found that it helps build muscle memory for when it's time to interact with that boss. Sometimes that's the only way my guildies will bother learning the mechanics 🙃
Does anybody else see these mechanics, or find them helpful in MMOs and/or RPGs that you enjoy?
Honestly no, usually the mobs themselves seem more like place holders for the most part. Eve is the only one I can think of that had common mobs that use mechanics resembling what players, and more difficult mobs, would toss at you.
If you guys were to implement smaller versions of boss mechanics, and really lean into it for the common stuff, it would be fantastic.
I'm sure other games may have tried something similar in the past but the mobs themselves were usually not impactful enough to be noticeable.
Where I've seen some helpful trash mobs is leading up to some boss fights. I've always liked when these creatures replicate boss abilities or mechanics, or a simplified version of them. I've found that it helps build muscle memory for when it's time to interact with that boss. Sometimes that's the only way my guildies will bother learning the mechanics 🙃
Does anybody else see these mechanics, or find them helpful in MMOs and/or RPGs that you enjoy?
The only game I've really seen something like that in any meaningful sense was Wildstar. They had that telegraph system showing on the ground for both trash mobs and boss-types.
Even tho i see some reasons for their existance, i see their main purpose as a matter of contrast, their existence can truly highlight the abyss that can exist between them and the apex, i could only truly value how insane something like L2's Original Sin Warden's Group was when looking at lackluster average solo mobs in L2, the disparity was so great it's hard to accept both existed in the same game in the same period.
Aren't we all sinners?
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I don’t know that I want combat to be so static and predictable that I’m relying on muscle memory - ever.
I do like map areas and dungeons and raids to be thematic.
For the sake of discussion, a 'trash mob' is anything that will usually die without posing any credible threat to a player (let's say solo or duo).
If that's not clear enough, think 'anything that can be killed by a bot' (for people who think bots are simplistic, and for anyone else who knows that they aren't, I figure the first definition is enough).
Why do games have these? If you prefer that a game has these, please clarify what they are adding to the game experience, for you personally.
Every mob can 'become this' if you get high enough level over it, but in at least some games, you also don't get any exp for them. So assume that the game 'intends' for you to kill them.
Thanks.
hey bots can kill elite mobs and bosses too!
anyways, trash mbos are important. you cant have difficult mobs only. different levels of difficulties for different players, basically. plus you get to practice your skills and combos with little threat of dying if you mess up ;3
Some of them roam the Games they are in. Others roam the Forum of the Company which made the Game and defend disrespectful to unforgivable Circumstances in- and outside the Game against Critique against their D~x~lers, the Developers. Activision Lizzard deploys both kinds of them on a daily Basis. 😁
Comments
The issue always revolves around credible threat.
If they can kill you with enough time or enough numbers they can be a fun obstacle to navigate while also being a good source of common loot. Examples would be Classic WoW and Eve.
If they can't kill you they become a tiresome obstacle to what you'd rather be doing. Examples would be current SWTOR and FFXIV.
I once seen a tiny rat. I had no idea if is killable or not. when I killed it I got an over damage achievement. Why the achievement was there and why they add rats in cities which can be killed?
Maybe some mobs become trash after expansions are added or because they implement them and before release they just change what they drop and whatever.
Diablo is based on the concept that you kill many weak NPCs or you just run through them.
If a map is large, with stronger mobs you would slow down your travel time.
With no mobs at all, you would have an empty world unless is populated by NPCs doing their stuff.
Edit: the travel time is also an interesting concept to consider. If we reduce the game just to combat to have interesting fight and get their drops, we don't need travel at all. We can just have a 20s cutscene which shows us traveling to the place. Or a portal. Or we get smaller maps.
I was talking in general not in the context of AoC with the reduced TTK for average mobs.
Trash does not mean average. Average is at the middle. Trash would be the lowest level or filler which maybe does not even attack players. Does not take space away from player movement.
But yes, from the perspective of players who optimize to speed run to get to some end goal, anything which they avoid is worthless to them.
One thing occurred to me is that some players like to RP. Maybe the presence of such trash mobs help them.
Map size, travel mechanic, space needed, map emptiness are design aspects which are decided in advance to fit the vision of developers. Different developers and players have different opinions.
In some games every single mob has to serve one or more purposes, to make the game more complex. Can be that nothing is added just for immersion because that's how they want it to be. Others prefer to spend time on little useless things too just for immersion, which some players appreciate.
Good trash mobs: Minions type monsters in D&D 3rd 4th edition and up.
What make the minions interesting are that, aside from having only 1 hp, they hit about as hard a normal monsters, they have about the same armour class as normal monsters, they occupy space on the grid and so they interfere with the players' movement (blocking or attacks of opportunities) and they can give allies bonus such as flanking... And players must spend actions, spells, short rests, potions, etc. because of them.
In short: even with 1 hp, their defence and potential damage make them a real threat.
If that kind of purpose was to be transposed to a MMO, we'd have interesting trash mobs. Sentries and patrols who run back to get more when they aggro instead of joining the fray. Healers staying at range. DPSs hitting as hard as the rest but with lower HPs...
I'd be a happy raccoon with those.
edit: had to open some old books to make a correction...
Sometimes -> the so called Trashmobs are just the many, many Mobs that fill the World. And for a good Reason. We would all bore of such a grandiose, vast World - if it wouldn't be filled with Mobs we can interact with.
The Minotauer-Questgiver. Many of his hostile Clan Members a bit further,
i wish for a living World populated by many Beings i can challenge or do Quests for.
And Trashmobs are the Reason why for Example a "Goblin Camp" or Ruin filled with Goblins, shouldn't be empty. Plus i personally would love Area's i can not clear completely alone. Like there is so many "Trash(lol) Mobs" that i alone would either have a nigh Impossible time, or just no way of challenging them alone.
And then once they begin to start being "trash" you've moved to a new zone.
Originally, trash mobs were the ones that are around to distract you from the boss.
Where I've seen some helpful trash mobs is leading up to some boss fights. I've always liked when these creatures replicate boss abilities or mechanics, or a simplified version of them. I've found that it helps build muscle memory for when it's time to interact with that boss. Sometimes that's the only way my guildies will bother learning the mechanics 🙃
Does anybody else see these mechanics, or find them helpful in MMOs and/or RPGs that you enjoy?
In World of WoW-Token Craft -> pretty much all Monsters roaming around Instances and especially Raid Instances between the Bosses are usually called Trash Mobs by many Members of the Groups.
What would you think of those ? Fitting Description or might they be off ? Because i mean also Mobs that run around in Mob Patrols and are not necessarily anywhere near any Boss Mob.
Yes.
Honestly no, usually the mobs themselves seem more like place holders for the most part. Eve is the only one I can think of that had common mobs that use mechanics resembling what players, and more difficult mobs, would toss at you.
If you guys were to implement smaller versions of boss mechanics, and really lean into it for the common stuff, it would be fantastic.
I'm sure other games may have tried something similar in the past but the mobs themselves were usually not impactful enough to be noticeable.
The only game I've really seen something like that in any meaningful sense was Wildstar. They had that telegraph system showing on the ground for both trash mobs and boss-types.
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Aren't we all sinners?
I do like map areas and dungeons and raids to be thematic.
I have to agree here.
hey bots can kill elite mobs and bosses too!
anyways, trash mbos are important. you cant have difficult mobs only. different levels of difficulties for different players, basically. plus you get to practice your skills and combos with little threat of dying if you mess up ;3
Some of them roam the Games they are in. Others roam the Forum of the Company which made the Game and defend disrespectful to unforgivable Circumstances in- and outside the Game against Critique against their D~x~lers, the Developers. Activision Lizzard deploys both kinds of them on a daily Basis. 😁