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Flanker wrote: »

Metaphorically saying, removing HP bars makes PvP more similar to poker rather than chess[/b]

In my mind, this is almost the opposite.

I'm not sure how to keep this short without trying to get into a 'credentials measuring contest' though, so I'll do the usual and leave the 'he said/she said' aspect to anyone still paying attention to this poor thread.

'She said': Removing HP bars in a PvP MMO has a minimal effect on the skill check required for combat-related decision making in almost any such game.

You'll be able to make a build that suits your needs. It may not be min-maxed to the min-max, and you may not be as powerful as those who use the full set of skills, but you'll work something out.

Simply put:

• A max level class will have access to 35-40 active skills
• There is a slot reserved for basic weapon attack
• The hotbar/actionbar has space to slot in 15-20 additional actions
• Actions include not only active skills but also things like potions

Looking at the Bard Gameplay as an example, it seems this combo obsessed class will weave its combat mainly through weapon attacks, 2 melodies between they switch and maybe 6 active abilities with the ultimate saga ability to trigger once in a while. Totalling to a "rotation" for standard encounters that would require 9 keys.

That sounds quite managable to me.

Noaani wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

Do you understand what I mean?

Yes.
As I said above, decision making without information isn't skill, it's luck.
If you want to increase the skill ceiling, you give players more information, not less.

No, it's not luck. I'm not sure what's the correct term for it in English, it's something like "decision making under uncertainty" - basically decision making in situations/circumstances when you have limited information.

There is an element of luck in PvP in general - sure, such as getting lucky with crits/debuffs etc. But those are two separate things.

Simple comparison:

1. Chess - a skill-based game with full information and no luck factor involved.

2. Poker (classic NLHE, for example) - a skill-based game with limited information and a luck factor involved.

When it comes to poker, you only see your pocket cards and cards on board (flop/turn/river), but you don't know the pocket cards of your opponents. Does it mean that you can't make calculated and mathematically right decisions based on GTO? Absolutely not

Metaphorically saying, removing HP bars makes PvP more similar to poker rather than chess

Flanker wrote: »

Do you understand what I mean?

Yes.

As I said above, decision making without information isn't skill, it's luck.

If you want to increase the skill ceiling, you give players more information, not less.

Flanker wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

no visible hp is more exciting teehee ;3

This is the only valid argument I have seen for this, honestly.

It is, however, subjective. Some people get an amount of excitement in seeing a rivals health bar going down, especially in large scale PvP.

Technically, we can rephrase this subjective opinion into objective fact - invisible HP bars would increase a skill ceiling? Right?

No, it doesn't.

Flanker wrote: »

Umm... why? Isn't having less information make it a bit more difficult when it comes to decision making?

Yes, but in this case it applies equally to both sides.

Your comment would be true if we were talking about PvE content.

Edit to add; getting lucky with a lack of information isn't skill. Skill is having information and using it well.

If you want to increase the skill ceiling (ie, the amount of skill a player can put to use), you want to give players more informaiton, not less. Less information increases the luck ceiling.

Depraved wrote: »

no visible hp is more exciting teehee ;3

This is the only valid argument I have seen for this, honestly.

It is, however, subjective. Some people get an amount of excitement in seeing a rivals health bar going down, especially in large scale PvP.

On the surface it seems like a good idea, to allow players with an average home system to get some of the additional performance this game will require for the massive battles we all envision. But, money is always an issue and if GeForce Now costs AoC too much money then it's understandable why it wouldn't be used, however, GeForce Now charges the user a good clip as well so maybe Nvidia needs to realign there own fees to increase its' own popularity and use.

Flanker wrote: »

I didn't get anything and never claimed they are correct. The hell are you implying or talking about?
It was him who wrote "those absurd numbers" and I just quoted him.

Yep. And, like I already told you, you answered my question perfectly.
I never said anything like, "Flanker is so stupid he thinks it takes 10 hours to reach max Level in WoW."
I asked you, "Where are you getting those numbers from?"
Where, you said... "Alright, let's start with those. If I understand it correctly, those numbers represent the current state of affairs, right?"
And, you answered perfectly, "I got them from Noanni".
And now I understand why those numbers are so absurd.
Thanks. That's exactly the way discussions are supposed to work.

Flanker wrote: »

Just as I said before, I never played those games and I have no idea whether what he wrote is accurate or not.

Yep. It seems that way. That's OK.
That's why I asked you where you got the numbers from.
And that's why I said your answer that you got them from Noanni is perfect.

Flanker wrote: »

I spoke to a guy in a voice chat in AoC discord around a month ago or so. We were talking about Ashes at first, but then switched to discussing IRL topics. Our opinions were different probably in 80% of cases, but it didn't matter because the conversation was civil, well-structured and properly handled; which, as a result, made it enjoyable and interesting, despite the fact that we disagreed about many things.

I am not familiar with this. I live ~5000 miles away in a country that doesn't have many Africans, Americans or African Americans.

Yep. And that means there will likely be some cultural differences with regard to what is "civil, well-structured and properly handled" discourse. And that's OK.