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RonDog98 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

Let’s start with this:

Ash’s is a game with XP debt
At least 25% material loss on death
And some of the most insane travel time in any game.

First one is objectively bad game design

Second one, in my opinion, should be tweaked so that you either don’t lose materials on PVE death or make it so you can recover 100% of dropped materials.

Question: Why is xp debt "objectively bad game design"?

It’s not fun or meaningful. No one, in real life or videos games, enjoys the feeling of going back words or getting worse at something. Is a negative feeling that serves no purpose but to make a game hardcore in a way that isn’t fun, but instead annoying.

Also, just look at history. Wow took over the world and a large part of that is credited to it having gotten rid of outdated mechanics like XP Debt or loot dropping.

Demon souls, Fromsoftwares dark souls before dark souls, had XP debt which was taken out in every subsequent game but it was deemed not fun difficulty.

If a game company known for its hardcore games decides to remove a mechanic because it’s shitty and not fun, you know might want a o take notes as to why.

Context is important here. You talk about Fromsoft games here but they work very differently to Ashes. When you die in a Fromsoft game all the enemies respawn and some of the runs from the closest bonfire to the boss you died on are brutal, usually comprising of tight corridors with lots of mobs that you have to fight through or dodge past, and every time you get hit on one of those runbacks you lose health and/or healing that you might need for the boss fight. That is the true punishment for dying in those games, so there was no need to add exp debt on top of it, which is probably why they took it out.

Ashes doesn't work like that. Not only do the mobs not all instantly respawn when you die, but it's far easier to avoid groups of mobs in Ashes than it is in a Fromsoft game, plus you don't really need to save resources for some kind of boss fight at the end of the runback. Completely different scenario.

But let's run with your idea anyway. Let's say we remove the exp debt and allow players to recover 100% of their dropped loot. What then is the consequence for dying? Is there even a consequence at all?

Following from that, if there is no consequence to dying, what purpose does death even have in the game? If death is meaningless, losing health is also meaningless, at which point we might as well get rid of the player health bar entirely. This is where I'm at when it comes to modern WoW. Outside of mythic dungeons or raids there is no consequence for dying at all. Oh sure you lose a tiny bit of time on the runback but that's it, and in fact sometimes you can abuse that by intentionally dying knowing the game will respawn you closer to your desired destination. The same applies to FFVIX, GW2, ESO, the list goes on. None of them have any true consequence for dying and because of that the world feels inconsequential and meaningless to traverse (in my opinion).

I would argue that one of Ashes biggest strengths is that the world feels dangerous. You can die very easily if you aren't careful, and death does have meaningful consequences.

EDIT: I'd like to add to this that punishment in a video game isn't a bad thing. A punishment like exp debt is the game telling you "you f***ked up, learn from your mistake" which is good, and reflects real life. The time when punishment is bad is when the game punishes you for doing things that it has previously taught you.

Here's an example. In Paper Mario Sticker Star there is a level that, in order to progress, you have to stand still in the sinking sand, which then drops you down to the exit. In the very next level, without any hint or warning, doing the exact same thing gives you an instant game over. THAT is bad game design, because the game expected you to do a certain action, then immediately punishes you for doing that same action later on.

We are in an Alpha 2 and this means we need to help DEV to test stuff out and help them see how the game runs. We try handing them all kinds of suggestions, positive and negative feedback and hope they use it to make the game better....so far so good.

But what do we test now?

MY first suggestion is to upgrade the xp and cash we earn with a kill massively. Why you want to bore alpha 2 players who help testing with endless grinding is pointless.

Questing is bad...to be honest. Its the same system New World got and they got flamed. After first month almost 80% of the players left that game and never return. AoC is heading same direction doing this.
people only want to repeat the same quest a few times before they decide watching grass grow is more fun. I hope they add waaaay more and different quests.

Grinding is tested to the max. Every one needs to do it...and i guess they see that it works.The only down side is that even now some spots are so heavy crowded people fight over who gets to kill what mob.

Grief system works...and what i hear one side enjoys it...stealing from your fellow players is something they like. The rest hate it. Stealing in pvp i could understand...but in pve and high levels who steal from lower levels cause its easy money is bad.
They could put in a timer...lets say 5 minutes that you can get your stuff back or so...but then the idiots start to camp corpses to over and over kill the lower players. THIS is why most games dont do this. Its bad for the game and normal players will say bye bye pretty soon.

PvP not seen at all. Caravans i see and join never get attacked. Everyone ignores it. The one time we got attacked it was by the one guild that does pvp.
No keep attacks. No town attacks. Nothing. The only thing we see are the loot stealing players who attack much lower level players to farm them. 25 years of pvp and this is what we see. I hope it gets better.

Players who are new to pvp get no option to learn how it works.Make some battlegrounds where they can learn it. make it level restricted so lets say first one lvl 10 to 15...second 16 to 20 etc.
Have the different types of pvp the end game will have in it so by the time they reach it they know how it works. This also ad another dimension to the game.

Crafting is fun....but could be a lot better. Its way to complicated and if you not familiar with any off it i wish you good luck.
Also some connections are odd.
If you train a wolf or so you have to chop lumber to Fuel ?????? the beast so you ca ride him...well 50% of the time . You might get a pointless mount for most who is for the caravans. bye bye cash, times and the wood you chopped.

Bosses that are never up. For weeks now i try to kill Ted...well Ted is always on vacation. IF you are lucky and he is here and someone kills him..better delete the quest cause he will not return. Same with many other bosses.

Drag mobs trough other players to get them killed. Works like a charm. We see players do this to wipe a group...then steal the loot off their corpses and take over the spot...but mostly run off before getting caught.
Grief in ultimo style and your not marked pvp before you kill the entire group...by the time they are back after the butchering...you took off with all the loot.
This can easy be fixed if its not suppose to do it.

So AoC tell us what you aim for next...what you want us to test and what is going to change.

our patience?

It's Alpha 2. Should be no surprise that there is a lack of info within the game.
Since we are testing the game... you could just run some tests to determine what 100 speed means to you.

blktauna wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

The problem is, these things are literally what the game has always been. They can't really reduce the number of systems the game has, because it has been sold to players as having all of those systems, and players have made purchasing decisions based on them.

Same with the notion of solo play and PvE - the game has always been based on group play, and PvP has always been at the forefront of them games design.

I always wonder how the PVP only folks think they will be provided for without the PVE element.

In all honest perhaps PVE should just be random bots of certain towns going out and farming so the PVP only gang can hunt and grief them all they like. Like a more focused Mob. Then what you loot from them goes into your guild's coffers and that allows certain gear to spawn for you in the guild store, thus eliminating the whole need for any pve players and it can simply be non stop pvp.

This is such a warped perspective.
1) PvP-only folks aren't playing Ashes, PvP-only folks are playing Eve, and survival games (Ark, Rust)
2) Players who enjoy PvP-centric ("PvX") MMOs like Ashes don't need "PvE players to gank." Ganking isn't what PvP-centric MMOs are about. It's a meaningless side effect.
PvP players need other PvP players to compete with. And some amount of PvE content to compete around.

All the meaningful, objective-based PvP content can prosper and engage players without a single PvE-only player. Territory sieges, guild wars, caravan raids, PvX world bosses, PvX dungeons, node politics in general; these things are all exciting without a single PvE-preferring player in the playerbase.

Don't get me wrong, it's *nice* if there are also PvE-preferring players in the community. It adds to the variety and makes the politics and the decisionmaking more colourful.

But you don't need to dilute what the game is trying to be, in order to lure in PvE players as prey for the PvP predators; that's completely backwards for everyone involved.

1970merlin wrote: »

Vhaeyne, name a recent game that has succeeded by ignoring the market and feedback during development. No game has succeeded in pivoting to meet the desires of the players after release. It must be done early in development. Steven need to be number le now not later. He needs to have a track for PvE now, quests now, adaptation to the market now. Don't sacrifice all the systems and PvP, just add to the game. Subtract nothing.

What you call success is the reason the genre's industry is in the dire, soul-less spot it's in. ESO, FFXIV, GW2, and similar cases to various degrees all became commercial "successes" by copying the WoW-themeparks-but-with-more-options system, the way you're suggesting. They fall in line and appease the mainstream in order to make sure they don't flop.

But in the process they lose the chance at adding anything to the market that gives players something that addresses the lack of any good title for players with niche preferences. Such game concepts are inhibited by mindless participation trophy hunting of dailies, LfG dungeons, meaningless economies where everyone does everything, and inconsequential PvP.
And by not giving players with those preferences a place to thrive, you're also killing the opportunity for the industry to try out new approaches.

If you want innovation, you can't rely on backup plans that copy everything that's worked so far.
If you don't want innovation, you get a dying genre because the WoW treadmill can only breed sad neckbeards for so long before the rest of the world decides the genre isn't worth their time and kids just play MOBAs and single-player games instead.

I've played PvP-centric MMOs. They're fantastic. Players group up to achieve difficult things, the gameplay-loop is player-driven and the realm's story gets written by community goals, instead of being predetermined and mindlessly consumed. People know their opponents and care about their territory.
I've also seen what happens when games try to do both. The PvP becomes an empty shell that might as well not exist, while the playerbase is just a PvE carebear crowd lost in a game that happens to have PvP gameplay systems somewhere forgotten in the background. It's nothing but a counterproductive distractive chore that leads the game away from realising its vision. So the game ultimately ends up disappointing every player type, because there's no coherent identity to the game.

You don't believe in the vision because the only ways you've ever seen PvP play out is mindless ganking or zerging. Because that's all that exists when PvP is a gimmick instead of a challenge central to the gameplay loop. But if you want the game design industry to add something more engaging and community-connecting than the WoW treadmill, you'll have to trust the process of experimenting with something that's different, and the people who have seen something better.

If you're disinterested in territory sieges, guild wars, and caravan raids, that's totally cool, there are 5 highly successful titles for you to go play right now. Surely you must love them, considering how confidently you're advocating for Ashes to copy their success story. You don't need to hold this sermon on the unviability of niche games in order to just go play those successful games.

Keep in mind that at this juncture crafting is so tedious and time consuming that in order to make anything you have to spend a lot of time in town. There will be a revolt is you get interrupted in the middle of building some stupidly involved item and get your mats stolen.