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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The Dreaded Gear Treadmill.
I scanned other forums in regards to finding information about how items influence the player. Couldn't find any.
So....
How impact full are the expected stats going to be, relevant to baseline?
will Gear be a tool for delusional elitist exclusion?
I fear a gear treadmill and power creep.
will the Hypothetical max level be another moving goal post scenario? is there a leveling exp system for that matter?
In an MMO being promoted as sandbox refreshingly. With a stat and item system suggested what mechanics are being considered to balance gear progression?
So....
How impact full are the expected stats going to be, relevant to baseline?
will Gear be a tool for delusional elitist exclusion?
I fear a gear treadmill and power creep.
will the Hypothetical max level be another moving goal post scenario? is there a leveling exp system for that matter?
In an MMO being promoted as sandbox refreshingly. With a stat and item system suggested what mechanics are being considered to balance gear progression?
0
Comments
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/">Crafting vs gear dropped from bosses</a>
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/">Item Decay</a>
If they continue thinking that the best gear should come from Raids and Crafting it will not be different enough because they will still create a treadmill. Again then what the point is playing Ashes vs FFXIV?
I agree with you that the Treadmill needs to die in Ashes. Gear personally should be exactly like SWG just add instances like I said above.
There should always be a gear treadmill. If most players are max level with a full set of the best gear then I believe the MMORPG has failed. Though I might have a very different view to a lot of people of what a mmorpg should be.
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/" rel="nofollow">Crafting vs gear dropped from bosses</a>
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/" rel="nofollow">Item Decay</a>
If they continue thinking that the best gear should come from Raids and Crafting it will not be different enough because they will still create a treadmill. Again then what the point is playing Ashes vs FFXIV?
I agree with you that the Treadmill needs to die in Ashes. Gear personally should be exactly like SWG just add instances like I said above.
[/quote]
This just makes NO sense to me whatsoever... of course i come from WoW so gear progression is always what i have enjoyed. Why would i go do a dungeon or raid that is hard in order to get the same gear i can from crafting? Gear progression adds more content to the game even if it is redundant content... Harder dungeons/raids means better gear. Without that aspect the game would be missing a HUGE playerbase.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/#post-11691" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
This is why I keep bringing up that gear should be flat, instances should be run for crafting mats, glamour gear, gold, and mounts vs gear. If gear drops it should be the same gear a player can craft. As I said if they continue down the path of making this game just like WOW or FFXIV I am just going to stick with with FFXIV because its already a gear treadmill and there is no point in moving to Ashes.
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/" rel="nofollow">Crafting vs gear dropped from bosses</a>
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/item-decay-2/" rel="nofollow">Item Decay</a>
If they continue thinking that the best gear should come from Raids and Crafting it will not be different enough because they will still create a treadmill. Again then what the point is playing Ashes vs FFXIV?
I agree with you that the Treadmill needs to die in Ashes. Gear personally should be exactly like SWG just add instances like I said above.
</blockquote>
This just makes NO sense to me whatsoever… of course i come from WoW so gear progression is always what i have enjoyed. Why would i go do a dungeon or raid that is hard in order to get the same gear i can from crafting? Gear progression adds more content to the game even if it is redundant content… Harder dungeons/raids means better gear. Without that aspect the game would be missing a HUGE playerbase.
[/quote]
First, Why would you play Ashes if Ashes Copies WOW? I hate to tell you the Truth but you will not. Just like the hundreds of people I played with in other MMORPGS that are not WOW BUT copied WOW (Rift, SWTOR, FFXIV, ESO, LOTRO, DDO, and so on) Guess what the vast majority of them just end up going back to WOW and doing the WOW Sub Dance. Sorry but its time an MMORPG stopped copying WOW. I hate to tell you this but players like me who want something Different who would stick around will not stick around for another WOW Clone. Great you love WOW. Stick with WOW. If this becomes a WOW clone I will stick with FFXIV because Ashes will not offer anything different to me.
Second, If crafters need the materials out of Dungeons, plus Dungeons have you a Pile of gold and other things you could sell if you didnt want for gold. It is a good way of doing content even if it takes 1 to 2 hours to do. Without a LFD tool you will not be running these dungeons like a Treadmill. It will be something you do for fun. People during Vanilla WOW and TBC a times didnt need gear out of a Dungeon (I am thinking of Heroic Shattered Halls) and they ran it for fun.
Third, No adding a Gear Treadmill have is redundant does not add more content. It just makes it so that you have to log in Daily to progress with gear you will in a matter of weeks replace again. It just adds an illusion of content, FFXIV is a great example of this. You get to see 2 dungeons over and over again for 3 months until the next 2 dungeons come out. What great fun is that? Its not its just a treadmill to get you to run on a treadmill.
Again if you want WOW by all means stay in WOW. If Ashes copies WOW in this way Ashes will just become the same old pile of shit that other MMORPGS have become since 2008 because people like you that think that WOW is the ONLY way to go for MMORPG content. Guess what? Many other MMORPGs being made are breaking that mold. Pantheon is an example of this. While Yes there is a gear treadmill is there, they are making it that it will take you 6+ months to get some of the gear you want and you will hold on to that gear for a year or more. Its going back to a more of an old school treadmill that you spend more than a few weeks to gear up.
There should always be a gear treadmill. If most players are max level with a full set of the best gear then I believe the MMORPG has failed. Though I might have a very different view to a lot of people of what a mmorpg should be.
[/quote]
The problem is this mentality of "THE BEST GEAR". MMORPGS prior to WOW didnt really have this mentality outside maybe EQ. SWG for example had really good gear, but that good gear was very common. People didnt strive for just gear, they went and they played the game doing what they wanted to do that day. Yea there were items have were situational that was the best gear for the job. For example my 8K damage rocket launchers were the best weapon for the job when it came to taking down AT-STs which was needed when attacking a player run base. But them rocket launchers did me no good against a bounty under that was within 10 meters of me. We need to go back to that time where people use different gear for different things. We need to get the hell away from the gear treadmill.
Here is a Critical question. Why the hell would players want to go from 1 Gear Treadmill to another Gear Treadmill? I can tell you they dont. Countless MMORPG players today are tired of the Gear Treadmills. It shows by people going to the newest MMORPG seeing is the same as the one they left and then going back to that old game.
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Not True. Read above. It's just something that has been happening since WOW because people think that it is the way it must be. Which is not True. Players who played MMORPGs long before WOW know this.
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The problem is the entire Raid = best gear possible mentality. While I will say yes raids are hard to pull together, I know I lead 40 man MC and BWL raids in Vanilla WOW. It was a bitch. The Problem is the idea that, that is the best formula for MMORPGS. This is why I like the idea of SWG like gear system because some of the best crafting mats came from killing mobs you would take a handful of friends and farm. This is a better design in today's MMORPG climate than the WOW model. Just look at how many Raiding guilds in WOW shut down recently. FFXIV is the same way few and few people are raiding. Yea you have Raids that you can queue for but people do those for a few weeks until they get their gear then quit and developers cannot keep up the development of this type of content.
Its better to create an instance that for example has a Dragon boss that was recently killed in the open world where people can go kill it in the instance because its no longer roaming the world. Or Dungeons that are real time sinks and focused on what treasures you can get out of it like a Ruby that will increase the fire damage on a fire elemental weapon. These type of things are better than copying and pasting WOW gear treadmills.
Sandbox MMOs rely on guilds, guild leaders and the community in general to create their own content. Hense the world is what we the community make of it and not what the devs hand fed us. They put the machanics in we the players decide how to use them. Those that need the gear treadmill can relax it's still there and you are doing those dungeons and world bosses/mobs for it you just go to the vendor(auction house) when you have enough currency to buy it.
Sandbox MMOs are also cruel and dangerous places there is strength in numbers. You will want to be in a guild as soon as you can. Your best bet will be to find one before you even start playing. People to socialize with and ask questions about the game will go a long way as well as people helping gernerate that content we all always want. Solo players usually don't last long in any kind of sandbox game reguardless of how difficult the mobs are to kill. Sandboxes are about enjoying the games theme and the people you play with and what you do together. It could be farming dungeons and world bosses or pvp guild vs guild or destroying nodes forming alliances and rivalries with other guilds or players . It's not about world first and how fast you can ride all the rides in the theme park.
Sandbox MMOs rely on guilds, guild leaders and the community in general to create their own content. Hense the world is what we the community make of it and not what the devs hand fed us. They put the machanics in we the players decide how to use them. Those that need the gear treadmill can relax it’s still there and you are doing those dungeons and world bosses/mobs for it you just go to the vendor(auction house) when you have enough currency to buy it.
Sandbox MMOs are also cruel and dangerous places there is strength in numbers. You will want to be in a guild as soon as you can. Your best bet will be to find one before you even start playing. People to socialize with and ask questions about the game will go a long way as well as people helping gernerate that content we all always want. Solo players usually don’t last long in any kind of sandbox game reguardless of how difficult the mobs are to kill. Sandboxes are about enjoying the games theme and the people you play with and what you do together. It could be farming dungeons and world bosses or pvp guild vs guild or destroying nodes forming alliances and rivalries with other guilds or players . It’s not about world first and how fast you can ride all the rides in the theme park.
[/quote]
Well said
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AO is just copying games like UO and SWG which is good system. It will remove any need for a gear treadmill.
[quote quote=11766]<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/#post-11758" rel="nofollow">Jastorin wrote:</a></div>
If it follows a true sandbox theme then the best gear in the game will be crafted. The mobs in the world and dungeons will be there for grinding for hours for currency to pay the the best gear the person had to grind for hours to make. Dungeons would perhaps have large gathering nodes after bosses and most likely award more currency for less time investment due to being harder content for the none crafted/gatherers.
Sandbox MMOs rely on guilds, guild leaders and the community in general to create their own content. Hense the world is what we the community make of it and not what the devs hand fed us. They put the machanics in we the players decide how to use them. Those that need the gear treadmill can relax it’s still there and you are doing those dungeons and world bosses/mobs for it you just go to the vendor(auction house) when you have enough currency to buy it.
Sandbox MMOs are also cruel and dangerous places there is strength in numbers. You will want to be in a guild as soon as you can. Your best bet will be to find one before you even start playing. People to socialize with and ask questions about the game will go a long way as well as people helping gernerate that content we all always want. Solo players usually don’t last long in any kind of sandbox game reguardless of how difficult the mobs are to kill. Sandboxes are about enjoying the games theme and the people you play with and what you do together. It could be farming dungeons and world bosses or pvp guild vs guild or destroying nodes forming alliances and rivalries with other guilds or players . It’s not about world first and how fast you can ride all the rides in the theme park.
</blockquote>
Well said
[/quote]
Exactly. This is why I am saying what is the point of playing Ashes if it just copy and paste WOW's Dungeon and Gear Treadmills. I would just play FFXIV which I am playing now if thats all that Ashes will be is just the same game I am playing today.
Here is a question. Why would you want another MMORPG with the same Gear Treadmill that 2 Dozen MMORPGs has today when you can play any of these?
I don't mean the scale of it and how massive it is with all the different systems it would need to be in space for that. It does have some gear from PVE in it that is really good but you can also get recipes to craft them and you never fly with anything you can't afford to lose. Which means they could also put recipes in dungeons or a possible drop from world bosses but only to craft a few and maybe even a chance the peace of gear the recipe is for drops you can use or sell for a lot of currency to make repeating it desirable. As long as they stay away from the god awful skill system EVE used lol.
Having all your progress wiped every expansion with the first quest reward items received and all the previous global content more or less made redundant is why I became disenfranchised with Blizzards smug attitude towards its players.
I am done with Theme park MMos,
So many alternatives just copy pasted the metric and failed.
Curently as a bored GW2 player, the way Max level is capped and the way gear and stats are handled demonstrate that there are valid alternative options. (unfortunately their mechanics and systems narrowed potential build diversity to a handful of META min max elitist options, but allowed for a rich assortment of cosmetic customisation and vanity items)
AOC, needs to find its own methodology towards gear and stats. IMO World content should provide materials and vanity items only. Gear should primarily be crafted. And stats should be attributed to the player not the gear.
And any hypothetical expansion should not make the previous content irrelevant or increase the level cap.
Having all your progress wiped every expansion with the first quest reward items received and all the previous global content more or less made redundant is why I became disenfranchised with Blizzards smug attitude towards its players.
I am done with Theme park MMos,
So many alternatives just copy pasted the metric and failed.
Curently as a bored GW2 player, the way Max level is capped and the way gear and stats are handled demonstrate that there are valid alternative options. (unfortunately their mechanics and systems narrowed potential build diversity to a handful of META min max elitist options, but allowed for a rich assortment of cosmetic customisation and vanity items)
AOC, needs to find its own methodology towards gear and stats. IMO World content should provide materials and vanity items only. Gear should primarily be crafted. And stats should be attributed to the player not the gear.
And any hypothetical expansion should not make the previous content irrelevant or increase the level cap.
[/quote]
I agree if any thing it should add more craftable items and more mechanics the players can find interesting ways to use.
Having all your progress wiped every expansion with the first quest reward items received and all the previous global content more or less made redundant is why I became disenfranchised with Blizzards smug attitude towards its players.
I am done with Theme park MMos,
So many alternatives just copy pasted the metric and failed.
Curently as a bored GW2 player, the way Max level is capped and the way gear and stats are handled demonstrate that there are valid alternative options. (unfortunately their mechanics and systems narrowed potential build diversity to a handful of META min max elitist options, but allowed for a rich assortment of cosmetic customisation and vanity items)
AOC, needs to find its own methodology towards gear and stats. IMO World content should provide materials and vanity items only. Gear should primarily be crafted. And stats should be attributed to the player not the gear.
And any hypothetical expansion should not make the previous content irrelevant or increase the level cap.
[/quote]
Agreed.
As for dungeon drops I don't think bosses should drop gear, I'd like to see them drop crafting mats....really what are the odds you share the same boot size as that oger anyway? Tge crafting mats should be exclusive to boss drops but boss drops should be the fastest and most sure fire way of getting them
As for dungeon drops I don’t think bosses should drop gear, I’d like to see them drop crafting mats….really what are the odds you share the same boot size as that oger anyway? Tge crafting mats should be exclusive to boss drops but boss drops should be the fastest and most sure fire way of getting them
[/quote]
Steven has said the the highest level gear will be a acquired from a combination of boss drops and crafting. So I'm guessing you will get the raw mats from a boss and then have to use crafting to turn them into the finished item.
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Yes if the materials were only in dungeons it just pushes people to grind dungeons the same as if there was gear in the dungeons. My idea is the drop rate for crafting mats is higher in Dungeons than out in the world BUT Its not the only way. The main reason to do Dungeons should be glamour gear, Gold and Mounts, but crafting mats is in there too because you can sell them mats for gold if not a crafter or not helping a crafter friend out.
I am actually sick of instant gratification rewards in MMO's and how it's dumbed down content to the lowest common denominator.
The issue is power creep from gear progression obtainable from drops based on RNG.
A dungeon in theme park MMOs is typicaly gated gear checks. Where by a set is obtained to grant access to the next dungeon and by the end of the systems progression all previous content becomes trivial. Also gear becomes a vast imbalance towards player vs player interactions.
From what i understand of the Node sytem in AoC, Dungeons/raids are player input gated.
So obtained access should allow all player characters an opportunity to farm/grind and master the content mechanics and systems.
the rewards as i mentioned previously should be materials and vanity items.
Crafting in AOC should be the primary way to obtain gear in a player driven economy.
And those materials should augment the aesthetics/durability
But I also acknowledge the ingrained pursuit of stratified items levels and the "Legendary drop" dopamine rush.
But without knowing any more information on gear progression we can only speculate.
Having an MMO that empowers crafting with a gated 'rare' material sources does a number of things. (does not have to be materials for gear specifics either)
1, It promotes player interaction and exchanges of goods and services, both good and bad.
2, It creates a player made economy of supply and demand.
3, It allows the Players to interact directly with the world environment and determine the effects.
These 3 points are in fact player driven "End Game" content. Not the typical theme park raiding roller coaster on rails + dressing up dolls.
Having an MMO that empowers crafting with a gated ‘rare’ material sources does a number of things. (does not have to be materials for gear specifics either)
1, It promotes player interaction and exchanges of goods and services, both good and bad.
2, It creates a player made economy of supply and demand.
3, It allows the Players to interact directly with the world environment and determine the effects.
These 3 points are in fact player driven “End Game” content. Not the typical theme park raiding roller coaster on rails + dressing up dolls.
[/quote]
This is why I say they need to copy SWG gear system where gear breaks people have to replace their gear every so many deaths. Also gear should be easy to get, you just have to find a vendor in a player's house, in a city, or have a friend who can craft it for you and there you got the gear. Yea some gear from better skilled crafters will be better than mid tier crafters but that is OK. Its up to the player to get the gear they want. The only real gear that should be dropping off the bosses is Glamour gear. This gear allows you to chance the look of your gear. Make them 1 use pieces and people will farm them to sell on vendors of farm for themselves.
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Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
The very best item should be god made and only handed out to the god's most trusted follower during time of a god war, so that follower can have a chance to kill the other god.
Otherwise the best items being PC crafted made. Unless the PC crafter is a very high level mage, a crafter can only make none magical items. They must find high level mages to enchant it item to make it magical. (This helps get more people into helping make high level items and make getting magical items harder.)
Dungoen mat treadmill should be kept to a very minum, with only items like scales from the boss dragon or a rare item recipe that has never been seen before.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12030" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
[/quote]
Cute tantrum. It gave me a smile, thanks :)