Glorious Alpha Two Testers!

Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.

Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

The Dreaded Gear Treadmill.

13

Comments

  • The topic became somewhat derailed so I will try to get back on track.
    We can all agree that WoW has/is the benchmark for "Theme Park" MMO content. (Pre cata was great the rest is a travesty IMO)

    AoC has suggested that it's is primarily a "Sand Box" MMO

    That means AoC doen not have to, and should not adhere to the same design tropes as a"Theme Park" will.

    The Gear treadmill and it's power creep symptom (generated by a hyper inflating stat/buff/set/perk bonus) are notoriously flawed, in that the make previous content irrelevant and create massive power imbalances between the community. This is best avoided in an Sand Box were player interaction is paramount to the success of the 'world'.

    So how to sustain the feeling of progression commonly associated with the RPG genre.
    Do we still have items with stats?
    Do we still have experience gain and a level up system?
    Do we still have quests/chains and completion rewards?
    Do we still have NPC/mob entities with RNG loot tables?
    Do we still have a scripted end game?

    A Sand Box does not have to answer yes to any of these.

    But it is likely that these elements will inherently be implemented to some degree.

    So, whats the point?
    Firstly i would like to propose that the primary reason an MMO succeeds or fails is its COMMUNITY!
    And that the world instance needs to encourage it's development.

    Now as for gear progression,
    Some honorable mentions that i personally have experienced:
    GW2 has it's Max level capped and was intended to have minimal stat creep with its gear, with the "Legendary" perk being the ability to swap the item stats out of combat and also have a desirable aesthetic. Also all armor and weapon items when found or made unlock that items appearance in a 'wardrobe' and many of those can re-skined and be coloured with a collectable dye pallet.

    Warhammer Online, if i recall my time with it. promoted the "trophy" system, which was an achievement reward item. These trophies when player unlocked though various means allowed the PC to augment their appearance. These were not armor or weapons but little trinkets slotted onto the character, allowing the player to 'show off' his or her deeds.

    If there are no item stats that whats the point of doing content? you might ask.
    If you are asking yourself this then the "Sand Box" genre might not be what you are looking for.

    The simple fact for me personally is I do not want to do game content because it gets me things. I want to do content because it's fun with other people. And i don;t want to to have my ability to have fun with other people gated behind a gear wall.
    Getting things is just a bonus.
  • Read a few of the posts and respectfully some of the proposals are very stupid.

    First --- the idea implied that only 1% should be able to reach max level....utterly ridiculous. Though I get the spirit of the comment which is likely "Leveling shouldn't be super brain dead easy and should require some effort and challenge" -- and to that sentiment alone I wholly agree. I as well am tired of being able to go from level 1 to 10 in an hour (or less as the case is with some MMOs)...that's silly. There's no feeling of accomplishment, when there's no feeling of accomplishment two basic things happen up front -- 1) you don't really value any investment in your character (because its too easy) and 2) when there's no investment at all into your character in a genre that is largely focus on character investment (MMORPGs) --- you get bored and stop playing...or at least question why keep playing? But no -- anyone with some patience and determination should be able to max level and while it shouldn't be a walk in the park...I'd say average time should take a 3-4 months for someone casually playing 10 or so hours per week, so the hard core guy who bangs out 40 hours per week should be max in a month (my mindset on that is ...the guy that plays a video game 40 hours a week , week after week....well that's a sad life so let him at least have is video game glory as it doesn't seem he has anything else going on).

    Second - The notion of gear being flat is another ridiculous thing. Gear should get better as you level, there's a reason this is the traditional model of RPG since pen and paper D & D --- it makes sense. There's not a single MMORPG (worth anything to play at least) I know of that doesn't use the model of "hey the more powerful you grow in level -- we have better gear for you...." I know sometimes the treadmill of MMOs gets frustration -- even to me....but guess what if the content in the MMO is rich and fun I can put up with it -- if its not....that's generally when I go "ok I'm out". I left WoW for nearly 2 years for that reason during a crap expansion.
  • People on this thread arguing about crafting only gear vs. gear from boss drops are a bit full of themselves. There is a thing called compromise, but a lot of people are too stubborn to settle for anything short of what they want, exactly the way they want it. I don't see a problem with the in between. Now I'm not as clever as the people at Intrepid or probably most of the people here, but I can give an example of compromise.

    This is purely an example of the compromise I suggested. Gear can drop from bosses, but have worse stats than crafting gear. Let's say the best boss gear will have roughly half the stats of the best crafting gear. So why would you ever use said gear? Well, because you can reinforce said boss gear with crafting gear. Now this reinforcement isn't permanent. It deteriorates after said amount of combat. This system would not only make dungeons/raids still worth the hassle, but make crafting a constant necessity. They could also make the crafting like SWG where crafting a piece of gear a certain way/with certain materials will make it superior to the same item made with materials of lesser quality. That adds a fun aspect to the crafting, so you can discover the 'best' way to make an item to make it more desirable.

    There is probably a better way to do this than my way, but it's just an example that I thought of that could satisfy the expectations of most people. I want this game to succeed and I'm sure most of you do too, so let's all work together to make it a success instead of being at each others throats. Looking forward to May 1st, I hope everyone else is too!
  • So right now I'm playing this MMORPG called Allods and just like some other games here you need to grind dungeons to upgrade your gear to the max. As expected, these dungeons get boring after you've done them 10 times and you already know each and every one of them.

    And that's not even the worst part about it. Allods keeps increasing the level cap by bringing in new questlines (which is actually good, new content etc.) but a new level cap means new end game gear. All those hours spent grinding for "Legendary" gear, gone. Your "Legendary" gear is now nothing but scrap compared to the new end game gear.

    I know for sure that at one point in time I will give up and stop trying. Let's hope AoC will do something entirely different.
  • I'm not sure how they will handle this, some people love an end to the means and others don't. I have always like Minecraft for the way they made the "levelling" not towards your actual character/s but the points accumulated go towards the making of better items; given its Minecraft, but I always wondered how that system would work in an mmorpg of this type. Would people get bored of it quickly? Will they have various types of levelling for how you choose to play? Maybe when you get experience from said raid or dungeon not only will it upgrade your camp to the next level of course, but maybe it will give you bonuses towards your crafting abilities? Sure you can work on them but maybe it will give you some sort of "limited/timed" bonus on account of how much you helped your town or if you spent so much of your energy elsewhere it gave you a hand-up of sorts towards something your already actively trying to accomplish. My goodness I could speculate all day long!
  • I would like to see professions play a bigger role than they do in other MMO's. To me, it feeld very weirdto find armor and weapons (especially epic+) as loot from monsters. I would love to see a system, where enemies drop more materials (especially non-human, but also magical creatures which could drop e.g. essences.) IMO, if a player crafts an item, it feels like he really achieved something and was not just lucky to find special gear from some other monsters. Referring to WoW, the lore implications are, that the playable races are not able to craft strong epic gear. Just NPR like the ones to find in raids can craft it, and we get it by killing them.

    By needing many different ingredients for lets say leather shoulder pads you would need to:

    *Look for very strong beasts, (in the open world or hidden in a dungeon, but not always the same dungeon! Look for it! You want to craft epic loot, it shouls feel epic. -> a gatherers job(Btw. I consider myself a casual gamer. Don't even know if I could experience that)

    * Get essences and maybe special herbs to craft the enchantment to make the armor epic. Foe example the needed herb could either be found in the wild, or certain ones can only be bred and grown by master herbalists.

    .
    .
    .

    Finnally someone who crafts it.


    Let me stress again the point I would like to make:
    I do not say, that there should be no gear as drops at all. But let the races feel mighty by letting them forge the strongest / or at least equally strong armor themselves to overcome to challenges in the world.
    One could easily combine this system with the nodes. E.g. requiring a metropolis to forge such powerful items. Of course many players would need to invest time to craft them. A master blacksmith alone cannot do it without the help of master gatherers and so on. Thus giving the players the possibility to advance as a servee community.

    Regarding the trademilling: I do think there should be increase in strength with better gear. However, I don`t see the reason why (with the example of WoW) a character at 110 needs to be incomparably stronger then a 101 lvl character.
    And the worst thing would be a random system like in WoW... just awful...
  • I think Ashes of Creation will need to decide if it is an MMORPG that caters to players in the world or caters to players in raids down the road. These two groups are obviously at odds.

    Having an ever increasing gear level, which is something that raiding players want, means that the open world eventually gets squeezed out of the end game. The NPCs around the world can't keep up with players who have the best gear when it increases too high. Next thing you know the developers need to create a new world with NPCs that can handle the players and the cycle starts all over again. Older content is then abandoned.

    Keeping gear flat means that raiders get bored and move on. They don't really want the open world to always be relevant. They eventually want to crush it under the weight of their item level 1000 boots. If a hard cap or soft cap is in place to balance things out and keep the world content somewhat more difficult, they'll state that they aren't actually progressing because of a stat cap.
  • [quote quote=12267]I think Ashes of Creation will need to decide if it is an MMORPG that caters to players in the world or caters to players in raids down the road. These two groups are obviously at odds.

    Having an ever increasing gear level, which is something that raiding players want, means that the open world eventually gets squeezed out of the end game. The NPCs around the world can’t keep up with players who have the best gear when it increases too high. Next thing you know the developers need to create a new world with NPCs that can handle the players and the cycle starts all over again. Older content is then abandoned.

    Keeping gear flat means that raiders get bored and move on. They don’t really want the open world to always be relevant. They eventually want to crush it under the weight of their item level 1000 boots. If a hard cap or soft cap is in place to balance things out and keep the world content somewhat more difficult, they’ll state that they aren’t actually progressing because of a stat cap.

    [/quote]

    But then it will be just another WoW clone. I think they need to decide if they want to be a fresh, new MMO and creating new needs or if they want a game that attracts WoW players because it handles WoW like content better. Up to now, the latter always failed.
  • Do you enjoy being a donkey with a carrot dangled in front of it.
    or
    Being a Rabbit in a vegetable garden.

    Another important aspect is how will the class/race/skills/ability/talent systems function and synergise with character progression either by leveling or an alternative method, and items/gear.

    I would much rather see gear and leveling up unlock/augment/evolve character skills/abilities in a flavorful way. Than a typical flat stat bonus increase. Assuming these systems are in AoC.
  • [quote quote=12269]Do you enjoy being a donkey with a carrot dangled in front of it.
    or
    Being a Rabbit in a vegetable garden.
    [...]
    I would much rather see gear and leveling up unlock/augment/evolve character skills/abilities in a flavorful way. Than a typical flat stat bonus increase. Assuming these systems are in AoC.

    [/quote]

    I agree. And that's where I think crafting would fit perfectly.
  • [quote quote=12230]SWG–
    Like – The introduction of item decay created a steady demand for items which kept the crafters and merchants happy,

    Dislike – Best in slot gear was to easy to obtain and gear at this point felt like a tool needed to get the job done, the feeling of *omg I can’t believe I finally got this* was gone. Also it became a bit of a burden – *oh lets go hunt a jedi…… oh darn I don’t have all the things I need let me go shop for the next hour to get them*[/quote]

    Yes That was one tough thing about SWG is you had to go fine the gear. For me it was not bad at all because I was in a player run city with 18 guilds and their vendors. I think with Ashes having market places in economic nodes you will have 1 node were you could focus your search. You could even have a central system that will search what vendors have what items on them, this way you can find what you wanted easily. You do that, buying the gear becomes easy to do as long as you have the gold.
  • [quote quote=12237]If there are no item stats that whats the point of doing content? you might ask.
    If you are asking yourself this then the “Sand Box” genre might not be what you are looking for.

    The simple fact for me personally is I do not want to do game content because it gets me things. I want to do content because it’s fun with other people. And i don;t want to to have my ability to have fun with other people gated behind a gear wall.
    Getting things is just a bonus.[/quote]

    This is exactly why I am wanting more of a SWG like gear system and not have Dungeons and Raid be the focus of gear. I too am very tired of doing the same content over and over just for gear. Dont get me wrong having some reward that helps you get the stuff (I used stuff because it could be a house in the game, it could be you want crafting mats, it could be you want gear it does not matter) you want.
  • [quote quote=12238]Read a few of the posts and respectfully some of the proposals are very stupid.

    First — the idea implied that only 1% should be able to reach max level….utterly ridiculous. Though I get the spirit of the comment which is likely “Leveling shouldn’t be super brain dead easy and should require some effort and challenge” — and to that sentiment alone I wholly agree. I as well am tired of being able to go from level 1 to 10 in an hour (or less as the case is with some MMOs)…that’s silly. There’s no feeling of accomplishment, when there’s no feeling of accomplishment two basic things happen up front — 1) you don’t really value any investment in your character (because its too easy) and 2) when there’s no investment at all into your character in a genre that is largely focus on character investment (MMORPGs) — you get bored and stop playing…or at least question why keep playing? But no — anyone with some patience and determination should be able to max level and while it shouldn’t be a walk in the park…I’d say average time should take a 3-4 months for someone casually playing 10 or so hours per week, so the hard core guy who bangs out 40 hours per week should be max in a month (my mindset on that is …the guy that plays a video game 40 hours a week , week after week….well that’s a sad life so let him at least have is video game glory as it doesn’t seem he has anything else going on).

    Second – The notion of gear being flat is another ridiculous thing. Gear should get better as you level, there’s a reason this is the traditional model of RPG since pen and paper D & D — it makes sense. There’s not a single MMORPG (worth anything to play at least) I know of that doesn’t use the model of “hey the more powerful you grow in level — we have better gear for you….” I know sometimes the treadmill of MMOs gets frustration — even to me….but guess what if the content in the MMO is rich and fun I can put up with it — if its not….that’s generally when I go “ok I’m out”. I left WoW for nearly 2 years for that reason during a crap expansion.

    [/quote]

    Your first point I completely agree with.

    Your second point I disagree with. No you do not need more powerful gear as you level. In UO a new player could get the best gear in game if someone gave it to them (It was expensive so new players didnt get this gear but I did give my friends very good gear to start with). It helped them play the game and skill up so they could join me in harder dungeons without the high risk of dying. In SWG Gear was flat and people just needed to get the gear they needed for the situation they found themselves in.

    The reasons people are use to the gearing systems in MMORPGS today is because they never played other MMORPGS outside of WOW and WOW clones. If you did you know that gear was not a gating factor in content and in a Sandbox gear should not be a gating factor. Your skills while leveling should get better not because you spend X amount of hours grinding gear there are other games that focus on this and its time for a game to not copy this dam model that 2 dozen other MMORPGs have, most are not successful MMORPGS.
  • [quote quote=12133]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12101" rel="nofollow">Tholren wrote:</a></div>
    Lineage II (C1-Interlude) had one of the best gear systems I’ve ever seen, and I hope they take it as inspiration. Especially considering the other similarities in this game. The way it worked was that gear was acquired through crafting, with insane amounts of materials and 60% chance recipes. I actually thought it was great, since the frustrating and arduous grind was a great filter. I understand such a system wouldn’t work in today’s market, but with some adjustments certain similarities can remain.

    </blockquote>
    That does not sound bad either. The problem then becomes how do make it not feel like a grind. Right for example with FFXIV its a grind. You have to do X amount of dungeons a week to Cap your stones. You have to do that for X amount of weeks until you have all your pieces of gear. This gets very boring.

    So how do you make it not a grind or less pronounced a grind? We need to be careful with grinds because if you ever played SWG when the added holocrons. That Jedi grind broke a lot of players. Since everyone wanted a Jedi you had to grind 2 progressions up to max skills. Those 2 you knew of, the 3rd you had to find on your own and players spend thousands of hours grinding. I can tell you from personal experience that my guild of about 50 people went down to 8 of us about 3 months after the holocrons. It dropped like a rock because everyone was grinding for a jedi. That grind pissed them off and in the end they quit playing. A friend of mind named Goji quit MMORPGS all together on that day.

    Then grinding was acceptable to some level but some grinds well are just too much. Today though people dont like the grind as much. So if you got any ideas throw them out there about balancing the grind. (WOW fishing Grind nightmares)

    [/quote]

    I'll be honest, I don't mind grinding. I much prefer to go to a farming spot and stay there for 5 hours killing the same mobs with my friends, talking nonsense on voice comms or watching a movie on my second monitor than any attempt at hiding the grind from what it is, a tedious time-sink. But I understand how that is me, and not everyone can enjoy such a system.

    I don't presume to have a perfect solution to the problem at hand, I don't really think there is any. Only a compromise from both grinders and non-grinders can lead to a system that will appeal to everyone. The hybrid system of both crafting and world boss drops sound like a reasonable compromise for me. I suppose we'll have to wait and see.
  • [quote quote=12240]People on this thread arguing about crafting only gear vs. gear from boss drops are a bit full of themselves. There is a thing called compromise, but a lot of people are too stubborn to settle for anything short of what they want, exactly the way they want it. I don’t see a problem with the in between. Now I’m not as clever as the people at Intrepid or probably most of the people here, but I can give an example of compromise.

    This is purely an example of the compromise I suggested. Gear can drop from bosses, but have worse stats than crafting gear. Let’s say the best boss gear will have roughly half the stats of the best crafting gear. So why would you ever use said gear? Well, because you can reinforce said boss gear with crafting gear. Now this reinforcement isn’t permanent. It deteriorates after said amount of combat. This system would not only make dungeons/raids still worth the hassle, but make crafting a constant necessity. They could also make the crafting like SWG where crafting a piece of gear a certain way/with certain materials will make it superior to the same item made with materials of lesser quality. That adds a fun aspect to the crafting, so you can discover the ‘best’ way to make an item to make it more desirable.

    There is probably a better way to do this than my way, but it’s just an example that I thought of that could satisfy the expectations of most people. I want this game to succeed and I’m sure most of you do too, so let’s all work together to make it a success instead of being at each others throats. Looking forward to May 1st, I hope everyone else is too!

    [/quote]

    No the people who are against having the same old gear treadmill are just tired of it period. If we wanted that gear treadmill we would stay in our game they we are playing currently or play the 2 dozen plus other MMORPGS that do the same shit.

    Now I agree that your idea has a lot of merit to it. Making dungeon gear drops weaker than crafted gear is a good thing because it makes crafters very happy. Now I would even say that taking that Dungeon gear and having an upgrade path with it would also work but it would require dungeon boss mats to upgrade. Now My only problem is then you can get into a situation where gear after lets say 3 months becomes devalued because everyone has the gear they want. The only way to combat that is making gear Decay and break were people need to replace the gear. But if the gear is easy to get, (Not saying boss fights and dungeons easy just saying the market should have a lot of gear on vendors at all times) crafters will always be upgrading items and crafting items. What I want to avoid is what happens to crafters today in MMORPGS where they are only useful for 4 or 6 months total out of 24 months of an expansion. This is because when people have their gear they never replace it.
  • [quote quote=12384]I’ll be honest, I don’t mind grinding. I much prefer to go to a farming spot and stay there for 5 hours killing the same mobs with my friends, talking nonsense on voice comms or watching a movie on my second monitor than any attempt at hiding the grind from what it is, a tedious time-sink. But I understand how that is me, and not everyone can enjoy such a system.

    I don’t presume to have a perfect solution to the problem at hand, I don’t really think there is any. Only a compromise from both grinders and non-grinders can lead to a system that will appeal to everyone. The hybrid system of both crafting and world boss drops sound like a reasonable compromise for me. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see[/quote]

    Yea and honestly that too is not a bad system to have players farm certain mobs. For example I farmed Balron's in UO for gold and gear. Thing is you would want something like Balrons spread out throughout the world and not just in 1 spot. Also if you make it where its easy to buy gear what the gold you get then that is good too.

    My problem with the grind is when its something like the SWG Jedi grind. That I hate and could never do that.
  • [quote quote=12259]I’m not sure how they will handle this, some people love an end to the means and others don’t. I have always like Minecraft for the way they made the “levelling” not towards your actual character/s but the points accumulated go towards the making of better items; given its Minecraft, but I always wondered how that system would work in an mmorpg of this type. Would people get bored of it quickly? Will they have various types of levelling for how you choose to play? Maybe when you get experience from said raid or dungeon not only will it upgrade your camp to the next level of course, but maybe it will give you bonuses towards your crafting abilities? Sure you can work on them but maybe it will give you some sort of “limited/timed” bonus on account of how much you helped your town or if you spent so much of your energy elsewhere it gave you a hand-up of sorts towards something your already actively trying to accomplish. My goodness I could speculate all day long!

    [/quote]

    Minecraft honestly is very much like UO type of gearing other than in UO you could only get the magically enchanted items from killing monsters or killing other players and looting their stuff. Minecraft makes it so you have to gather the items to make the gear and then allows you to upgrade that gear with enchanting them or using books that are enchanted. This system would work well in a Sandbox MMORPG that does not focus on Raid Tier 1 then gear up for Tier 2 Raid and so on. I feel that there is more than enough games that are designed around raiding like FFXIV that its time we mode away from this model and go with a free wheeling crafting systems.
  • [quote quote=12268]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/5/#post-12267" rel="nofollow">Hartwell wrote:</a></div>
    I think Ashes of Creation will need to decide if it is an MMORPG that caters to players in the world or caters to players in raids down the road. These two groups are obviously at odds.

    Having an ever increasing gear level, which is something that raiding players want, means that the open world eventually gets squeezed out of the end game. The NPCs around the world can’t keep up with players who have the best gear when it increases too high. Next thing you know the developers need to create a new world with NPCs that can handle the players and the cycle starts all over again. Older content is then abandoned.

    Keeping gear flat means that raiders get bored and move on. They don’t really want the open world to always be relevant. They eventually want to crush it under the weight of their item level 1000 boots. If a hard cap or soft cap is in place to balance things out and keep the world content somewhat more difficult, they’ll state that they aren’t actually progressing because of a stat cap.

    </blockquote>
    But then it will be just another WoW clone. I think they need to decide if they want to be a fresh, new MMO and creating new needs or if they want a game that attracts WoW players because it handles WoW like content better. Up to now, the latter always failed.

    [/quote]

    I agree with Hartwell here as a problem with dungeon/raid progression and how it will hurt the open world. For example if I lets say just wants to PVP and never do any Dungeons or Raids but that is where the best gear is I would get forced in that cycle again. Also they could put a Arena system in but then again it would require I be a certain spec with a cookie cuter 3v3 or 5 v 5 or what ever encounter to grind for gear. I cannot just roam around the world doing what I want in the world. I get stuck in the treadmill of PVP and PVE that are pronounced in other MMORPGs.

    Sindarael is also right. If they create a gear treadmill much like WOW it will just be a WOW Clone instead of a fresh new MMORPG. Also Steven said that not everyone will like Ashes of Creation and thats why I tell people that Ashes should not do the same old gear treadmill and if thats what they want stay in their MMORPG that does that. Ashes should be different not just another Themepark clone.
  • [quote quote=12270]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/5/#post-12269" rel="nofollow">Whocando wrote:</a></div>
    Do you enjoy being a donkey with a carrot dangled in front of it.
    or
    Being a Rabbit in a vegetable garden.
    […]
    I would much rather see gear and leveling up unlock/augment/evolve character skills/abilities in a flavorful way. Than a typical flat stat bonus increase. Assuming these systems are in AoC.

    </blockquote>
    I agree. And that’s where I think crafting would fit perfectly.



    [/quote]

    Again I agree with both of you. I think focusing gear from crafters is the best solution. My old problem is that if players dont ever have to replace the gear after they have the gear; gear after 2 or 3 months will have no value for crafters. This would push crafters not to play because they are not selling there wares, just upgrade services. FFXIV has this system with the materia, and I can tell you today they have a NPC that lets players pay it to add materia to their gear because there are not enough crafters in the game to support the materia enchantments. It's because FFXIV crafters are only needed for 1 maybe 2 months after new crafted gear comes out. Then they dont sell any new crafted gear so they leave.

    This is why I want a flat system for gear where the main focus is on buying it off of vendors and crafters and having Item Decay with items breaking. Crafters will not stick around for just Enchanting gear and thats it. Some like me like being a Blacksmith and making endless amounts of gear. Some good, some high end and some good for new players. That as a crafter is what I like to do. But when it comes down to FFXIV like crafting where at a certain point in the game I as a crafter is no longer needed for months; I will just no longer be a crafter. There is 0 point.
  • I dont mind a gear treadmill even a slow one.. With a few exceptions

    1. no Archeage working on your gear for 6 months to lose it all in an upgrade . If your going to craft or buy your gear lets make this a slow build rather then RNG win / lose it all.
    2. New players should be able to gear in a reasonable amount of time. No one wants to spend 6 months as cannon fodder
    3. Play-style should have gear available. Aka if your a commerce player buy it . if your a PvE Hunt/ Instance / Raid it. If your a pvper umm i don't grief newbs for it or something ? Anyway gear grind should be adaptable.
  • I am curious how player deaths will also be handled, but not to hijack my own thread....
    But lets assume that player deaths incur a gear 'stat' degradation penalty
    And crafters are required to repair degraded gear. and or enhance/improve with specific materials.
    Higher skilled crafters can repair to a higher standard too, subject to the location of the service.

    Higher tiered gear pieces though more durable require higher tier materials to maintain.
    Better quality degrades less per death penalty.
    Gear that has been not been repaired in time will become scrap base materials.

    Also remeber that the 'Node' system will inhibit access to raids/dungeons at least that is what i am lead to believe. So there may be a number contributing player/population factors gating the ability to even go and loot these places for whatever the y might offer.
  • But then again apparently there will be cosmetic cash shop items....So maybe all that gear/death penalty degradation speculation is moot.
  • If i remember correctly, you can repair your gear "normally" (with gold) unless it breaks. If it breaks, you will need to have a crafter "recraft" it using some of the mats that were needed in it's original creation.

    We also have heard about a mechanic where your gear takes more damage on death based on how much extra damage was done to you in the final blow. So if you are 1 heath and the opponent uses a big nuke on you, your gear is going to take more damage. I think this is meant to add extra randomness to how much damage your gear is taking and add extra risk to combat.

    I've haven't been as active lately so my memory is a little hazy but i believe it's been said that armor will only buff your defenses. I say this because it might be a hint of the kind gear progression we will have.

    On topic, i'm hoping gearing is more about selecting the right pieces for your build rather then finding the pieces with the best stats.
  • [quote quote=12430]But then again apparently there will be cosmetic cash shop items….So maybe all that gear/death penalty degradation speculation is moot.

    [/quote]It really depends on how cosmetics are applied. Some games keep cosmetics in player inventories, while other games integrate cash shop items into a user interface to always be called upon when the player wants to use them. A lot of games are now using gear skin panels for players to select their appearances. Guild Wars 2 and WoW treats item skins almost like an enchant, but you can always access these "enchants" by a wardrobe panel.
  • [quote quote=12445]If i remember correctly, you can repair your gear “normally” (with gold) unless it breaks. If it breaks, you will need to have a crafter “recraft” it using some of the mats that were needed in it’s original creation.

    We also have heard about a mechanic where your gear takes more damage on death based on how much extra damage was done to you in the final blow. So if you are 1 heath and the opponent uses a big nuke on you, your gear is going to take more damage. I think this is meant to add extra randomness to how much damage your gear is taking and add extra risk to combat.

    I’ve haven’t been as active lately so my memory is a little hazy but i believe it’s been said that armor will only buff your defenses. I say this because it might be a hint of the kind gear progression we will have.

    On topic, i’m hoping gearing is more about selecting the right pieces for your build rather then finding the pieces with the best stats.

    [/quote]

    Armor in SWG only buffed your defense and resistances as well. It was nice not to have gear that had stats on it. The Weapons also were just about the damage output not stats. It was a good system because it was what was the right for your build/role.

    If you have to fix a piece of gear with the mats that it took to make it even if its only half the mats why wouldnt it be better just to buy a new piece especially if there are no stats on the gear? It would just make sense to let the item break and buy a new sword.

    One thing that would make sense for gear is if it had a magic ability like Elemental slaying or armor that reduces knockback or CC.
  • [quote quote=12470]
    If you have to fix a piece of gear with the mats that it took to make it even if its only half the mats why wouldnt it be better just to buy a new piece especially if there are no stats on the gear? It would just make sense to let the item break and buy a new sword.

    One thing that would make sense for gear is if it had a magic ability like Elemental slaying or armor that reduces knockback or CC.

    [/quote]
    I think it's more about how the system feels. A lot of people are coming from the wow style gear progression where your gear is your life. This system is there to make those players feel better when an item breaks by making it so they aren't losing the item. We have been in threads where people are having problems imaging a game where it's not as big of a deal if an item breaks. We will have to see how the system plays out. It sounds like we are getting a system similar to swg's resource quality system so it might be common for people to replace gear anyways.

    I agree with items having different passives on them. I'm hoping for something similar to diablo 3's gear with items having different passive, active, and skill augmentations on them. It would be fun to have to theory craft what gear you have and experiment with different builds instead of following a linear path to power.
  • [quote quote=12482]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/6/#post-12470" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
    If you have to fix a piece of gear with the mats that it took to make it even if its only half the mats why wouldnt it be better just to buy a new piece especially if there are no stats on the gear? It would just make sense to let the item break and buy a new sword.

    One thing that would make sense for gear is if it had a magic ability like Elemental slaying or armor that reduces knockback or CC.

    </blockquote>
    I think it’s more about how the system feels. A lot of people are coming from the wow style gear progression where your gear is your life. This system is there to make those players feel better when an item breaks by making it so they aren’t losing the item. We have been in threads where people are having problems imaging a game where it’s not as big of a deal if an item breaks. We will have to see how the system plays out. It sounds like we are getting a system similar to swg’s resource quality system so it might be common for people to replace gear anyways.

    I agree with items having different passives on them. I’m hoping for something similar to diablo 3’s gear with items having different passive, active, and skill augmentations on them. It would be fun to have to theory craft what gear you have and experiment with different builds instead of following a linear path to power.

    [/quote]

    Yea people who never played an MMORPG prior to WOW's release just dont understand that gear in some MMORPGs was really not a big deal. Its not their fault it's just they have a narrow field of experience to pull from. Its like my step daughter looks at me when I say go over to your friends house and see if she wants to play instead of talking to her. She does not understand how that works because well she has a cell phone and can text.

    Yea having passives on items could make for some interesting game play like Demon slayers, or Elemental Slayers, or Human slayers. PVPers would love a Human slayer weapon but it does not work on a Dwarf :)
  • I think gear progression and level progression are both good things. However I don't think that you should have to run dungeons endlessly for the best gear. I would like to see a system where crafted gear makes you competetive, with dungeon/raid drops being only slightly better. Mainly for the guys that want to min/Max Thier toons. But also have everything be tradable/sellable on the market. That way newer players that come into the game don't have to worry about a huge gear gap that they have to catch up on
  • In a shifting world of supply and demand, the ability to just go out and replace your broken armor might not be as convenient as it sounds or as cost effective.

    This will also encourage a competitive crafting scene don't forget, which i am just as interested in, if not more so than dungeon running.

    I am not entirely opposed to gear and item progressive goals, I am more concerned with the power creep aspect commonly associated with it.

    I think item maintenance when applied correctly is the balance needed to pull the reigns on exponential gear power.
  • [quote quote=12547]In a shifting world of supply and demand, the ability to just go out and replace your broken armor might not be as convenient as it sounds or as cost effective.

    This will also encourage a competitive crafting scene don’t forget, which i am just as interested in, if not more so than dungeon running.

    I am not entirely opposed to gear and item progressive goals, I am more concerned with the power creep aspect commonly associated with it.

    I think item maintenance when applied correctly is the balance needed to pull the reigns on exponential gear power.

    [/quote]

    We are going to have to see what happens. McStackerson who is a cool guy said that it sounds like there will be no stats on the armor other than defensive stats. If that is true and gear is very much like SWG was there will be no power creep because it will be bring the right tool for the job.
Sign In or Register to comment.