Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
let's face it guys,we've all " been there,dont that", hardly any MMO with a normal concept will make anyone happy,WOW has ruined that for everyone. new concepts are needed and exciting story driven content with a rabbit on the stick is a good start.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12035" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12030" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
</blockquote>
Cute tantrum. It gave me a smile, thanks <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
[/quote]
Just Stating the True. People like you feel like copying and pasting the same dam MMORPG you are playing. Just to screw up a new MMORPG and go back to your old one. Truth is you should stay there. I am tired of the WOW Clones, very fucking tired.
I'm starting to think you hate doing dungeons. I hate grinding them, yes but doing them 10-15 times to try and get that powerful piece of gear, while it can be tedious, when you do finally get it you are ecstatic. And if you are going to not play ashes because of the gear system, all i can say is bye! There is so much more to the game than gear. If you want to stay at home and craft gear, more power to you, but i want to go out into the world, explore, do hard dungeons and get rewarded for my effort with more powerful items. But to each their own i guess. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it and this is mine. But in the end Intrepid is going to do it how they want to.
[/quote]
No because Crafters will be useless. They really need to look at SWG type of gear system because then there is 0 treadmill you just buy the gear you want from some crafter who likes to sit and craft all day.
[quote quote=12050]GW2 and ESO had no gear treadmill and look what it got them. there has to be some kind of gear progression. it doesn’t necessarily have to be gained from PVE (raids,dungeons),it could be gotten from PVP also or by crafting. as long as people do what they like and get rewards for it they will be happy. if someone is forced to do something he doesn’t like just to stay competitive,he wont play for long.
let’s face it guys,we’ve all ” been there,dont that”, hardly any MMO with a normal concept will make anyone happy,WOW has ruined that for everyone. new concepts are needed and exciting story driven content with a rabbit on the stick is a good start.
[/quote]
GW2 and ESO where not Sandbox MMORPGS. There are Themepark MMORPGs where you focus on building content for people to consume. The reason why ESO does not work is the entire focus of the game was a WOW style leveling system with PVE dungeons then switch to Solely PVP in 1 zone. That is a piss poor design and I said it the day the information came out about ESO.
Ashes needs to focus on the SANDBOX part of being an MMORPG. Which is not gear progression. It is progression of the world. Its building player run cities. Its going where you want and killing what you want. Its doing stuff like UO style treasure hunting. Or Running a dungeon for the hell of it. Should easily buy gear from any player run vendor in the game that the player wants to buy and forget about gear progression.
If you never played an MMORPG prior to 2004 WOW then you do not understand. You are comparing WOW Clones to WOW Clones just with changes in how things are done. There is no comparison to games like SWG, or UO, or other Pre-WOW MMORPGS because they are not the same build. Hell Even BDO its a WOW Clone. Albion Online would be a good representation of MMORPGS prior to WOW, but you dont need full corpse looting and all that which Albion Online has. The point is you do not need gear progression in Ashes. If that is what you want there are already how many MMORPGS on the market that have that design. Ashes should be designed just like Pre-WOW MMORPGS are. The reason for that is the lack of newer MMORPGS with Pre-WOW design because everyone thinks they will be the next WOW if they clone WOW. That didnt work for LOTRO, DDO, Rift, FFXIV, SWTOR and so on. Yes some better than others BUT the point still stands they are not better for being a WOW clone. Ashes must be different.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12047" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12035" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12030" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
</blockquote>
Cute tantrum. It gave me a smile, thanks <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
</blockquote>
Just Stating the True. People like you feel like copying and pasting the same dam MMORPG you are playing. Just to screw up a new MMORPG and go back to your old one. Truth is you should stay there. I am tired of the WOW Clones, very fucking tired.
[/quote]
No, you're not even close to stating the truth. In fact, all you've done is wail into the wind and pour presumption on me, like a child (in both instances), that some how I want an exact copy of FF14. Run along and let the adults speak please. People who scream vitriol and hyperbole on your level get tiresome fast.
I’m starting to think you hate doing dungeons. I hate grinding them, yes but doing them 10-15 times to try and get that powerful piece of gear, while it can be tedious, when you do finally get it you are ecstatic. And if you are going to not play ashes because of the gear system, all i can say is bye! There is so much more to the game than gear. If you want to stay at home and craft gear, more power to you, but i want to go out into the world, explore, do hard dungeons and get rewarded for my effort with more powerful items. But to each their own i guess. That’s your opinion and you are entitled to it and this is mine. But in the end Intrepid is going to do it how they want to.
[/quote]
Answer this. Did you EVER play an MMORPG Pre-WOW like UO or SWG? If you have not. Then you dont know you are just going on WOW because you know nothing else period.
O and BTW Hating Dungeons. Nope I love Dungeons. Give me a Vanilla WOW or TBC Dungeon any day over FFXIV or Current WOW dungeons. Why? They are engaging. Also people did them just for fun even when they didnt need the gear. Because they were fun to do. You know how many times my group and I did Shattered Halls Heroic when we didnt need gear? A half dozen or more. Same can be said about Scholo or Strat.
What I am tired of is Today's 10 minute rinse and repeat dungeons that do not belong in MMORPGs . And no you cannot make Dungeons in an MMORPGS with a treadmill without making the 15 a minute a week warriors happy. You just cannot. The reason is because the treadmills are so dam pronounced today that they are no longer fun. Add to that then people will bitch that there is no automated grouping tool to get them into these dungeons. The FACT is that if you go with WOW type progression you are not making Ashes any different from WOW Period.
I am not bitching that there should be no dungeons. I am saying there should be 0 focus on gear progression as why to do them outside of you get an big ass pot of gold and now go buy that piece of gear you want.
And BTW Yes if you have hard dungeons very soon after people will Bitch that it requires coordination and how there is no duty finder system. What I am saying is those people can go and either be social and do dungeons to get the gold they need to buy the gear or go solo and get the gold for the gear.
O and BTW you think I am being a Dick. Tough. Honestly go over the the Pantheon forums and talk about how they must have instances and you will have people jump down your throat there telling you the same thing I am. Not every game has to be a WOW Clone. they are going to have corpse runs and open world raids and gear that might take you 6 months to get but also you will have for 12 months or more. They say the same shit I am saying now. They are tired of cloning WOW, though they are cloning EQ1. Which is what people there Want. If they wanted WOW or FFXIV that would be focused there. I played FFXIV I love it because my friends and I do dungeons or POTD once a week and primals on weekends for fun. No one needs the gear out of this content. We are doing it just to do it and have fun with each other. Everyone of us is going to raid come SB but honestly we will not step into savage because we do not want the gear treadmill. We want to do the dungeons for the dungeons and be able to buy our gear away from the treadmill.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12052" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12047" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12035" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12030" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
</blockquote>
Cute tantrum. It gave me a smile, thanks <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
</blockquote>
Just Stating the True. People like you feel like copying and pasting the same dam MMORPG you are playing. Just to screw up a new MMORPG and go back to your old one. Truth is you should stay there. I am tired of the WOW Clones, very fucking tired.
</blockquote>
No, you’re not even close to stating the truth. In fact, all you’ve done is wail into the wind and pour presumption on me, like a child (in both instances), that some how I want an exact copy of FF14. Run along and let the adults speak please. People who scream vitriol and hyperbole on your level get tiresome fast.
[/quote]
Then why do you want the same FFXIV Gear Progression?
[quote quote=12047]Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.[/quote]
You say it right here. I am telling you if that is what you want stay in FFXIV. If I wanted and FFXIV Gear treadmill I wouldn't be on the Ashes of Creation forums. I would be on the FFXIV forums begging for more dungeons. There is a Difference. I dont want FFXIV; you do.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12061" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12052" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12047" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12035" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/2/#post-12030" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
Then stay in FFXIV. Why do people like you come to another games forms and asking for the same exact shit you have in another game when you will just end up back in that game. Why? Not every game should copy shit from another game. Stay in FFXIV if you want a Gear Treadmill. I play FFXIV too and if I wanted a fucking gear treadmill I would be there, not trying to help a game not have a gear treadmill. Stop asking for new games just to be another game just in a different skin. Its Boring as fuck.
</blockquote>
Cute tantrum. It gave me a smile, thanks <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
</blockquote>
Just Stating the True. People like you feel like copying and pasting the same dam MMORPG you are playing. Just to screw up a new MMORPG and go back to your old one. Truth is you should stay there. I am tired of the WOW Clones, very fucking tired.
</blockquote>
No, you’re not even close to stating the truth. In fact, all you’ve done is wail into the wind and pour presumption on me, like a child (in both instances), that some how I want an exact copy of FF14. Run along and let the adults speak please. People who scream vitriol and hyperbole on your level get tiresome fast.
</blockquote>
Then why do you want the same FFXIV Gear Progression?
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12047" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Just to be succinct: I want a gear Treadmill – I like working for my gear as long as its done right. I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.
</blockquote>
You say it right here. I am telling you if that is what you want stay in FFXIV. If I wanted and FFXIV Gear treadmill I wouldn’t be on the Ashes of Creation forums. I would be on the FFXIV forums begging for more dungeons. There is a Difference. I dont want FFXIV; you do.
[/quote]
Maybe work on your general reading comprehension there. " I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids." this doesn't even come close to saying I want an exact carbon copy. It's a non-detail sentence that was precursor-ed by me saying I am going to be succinct. Yet somehow you gleamed from that all the diatribe you vomited all over me and (to a lesser degree) borntoexile.
Nice try.
Edit: Like aforementioned, time to move on and let the adults speak about what they think rather than this nonsense you're superimposing on everyone.
Maybe work on your general reading comprehension there. ” I think FF14 does it rather well with being able to grind dungeons for bits and bobs to help get gear from raids.” this doesn’t even come close to saying I want an exact carbon copy. It’s a non-detail sentence that was precursor-ed by me saying I am going to be succinct. Yet somehow you gleamed from that all the diatribe you vomited all over me and (to a lesser degree) borntoexile.
Nice try.
[/quote]
Ok lets start over here and see where we can get to.
First how can you create Dungeons and Raids without being setup in a way that is not a WOW/FFXIV/ETC game clone?
Two, How can you have Dungeons and Raids without making the weekend warrior happy who wants Community killing tools like Automated Group Finders, Duty Finder, LFD/LFR and so on?
Three, How can you create a dungeon and Raid setup without being a 10 minute rinse and repeat setup like the rest of the MMORPG game genera right now?
Four, How can you make it so that people are not doing the same 2 or 3 dungeons over and over and over again for the same gear that everyone else has? Basically make gear interesting and not create a treadmill where gear is replaced every 2 or 3 months which is why MMORPG subs drop like a rock when people complete the treadmill.
First how can you create Dungeons and Raids without being setup in a way that is not a WOW/FFXIV/ETC game clone?
Two, How can you have Dungeons and Raids without making the weekend warrior happy who wants Community killing tools like Automated Group Finders, Duty Finder, LFD/LFR and so on?
Three, How can you create a dungeon and Raid setup without being a 10 minute rinse and repeat setup like the rest of the MMORPG game genera right now?
Four, How can you make it so that people are not doing the same 2 or 3 dungeons over and over and over again for the same gear that everyone else has? Basically make gear interesting and not create a treadmill where gear is replaced every 2 or 3 months which is why MMORPG subs drop like a rock when people complete the treadmill.[/quote]
1: I am honestly not sure. This falls back on the sparse nature of what I have been playing. In part, I sure as hell don't want to be forced to grind weeklies and dailies - yet at the same time I do recognize its efficiency.
2: I'm not sure you can do that nowadays. Automated grouping tools to me, are terrible, because you often end up with bad people/players - generally speaking.
3: Thats the million dollar question to which again, I have no idea. I don't even know if its possible.
4: The only game I can think of that didn't fall into that trap (completely) was CoH - when you wne into a dungeon it was randomly generated etc. Even that though got boring after awhile.
Like I keep saying, you have prescribed waaaaay too much off my sparse words. Really, the only thing I meant I liked in (14) that you don't have to have the Alex gear to be able to do everything but the highest raids - and even still you can get by if you want. Wearing your tome bought gear will get you the I-level you need to be effective anywhere. So yes, I do think its a good system for gearing up everyone leaving that absolute best for raiders. Yet that said the difference isn't even close to be astronomical so in reality everyone is strong. My biggest problem with it, generally speaking is I don't like how made gear is basically useless for combat. I am a maxed melded crafter and I have always been vocal about how useless crafted gear is.
If anything, I wish it was more akin to FF11 where crafted gear (at least when I played) was often better than raid gear. How that worked was the NM (notorious monster) would drop a particular item that was needed for some amazing piece of gear to be made. It was a win win in the sense of only the best crafters could make it and thusly it was worth a lot of gil. The person who won the drop could sell the dropped ingredient for a lot and actually buy what he wanted.
Anyway I digress - like I have kept saying, my statement was very nebulous and based on one small aspect that I liked: Pretty much everyone has a way to get gear that is effective.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12048" rel="nofollow">Jaxson wrote:</a></div>
Would gear that levels like the player be viable? Like instead of enchanting gear like in BDO why not have the gear level up as you use it to kill mobs. And btw Boss gear is a think in BDO so it isn’t as awesome anymore since now you need boss gear to be relevant in PvP.
</blockquote>
No because Crafters will be useless. They really need to look at SWG type of gear system because then there is 0 treadmill you just buy the gear you want from some crafter who likes to sit and craft all day.
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12050" rel="nofollow">Mortix wrote:</a></div>
GW2 and ESO had no gear treadmill and look what it got them. there has to be some kind of gear progression. it doesn’t necessarily have to be gained from PVE (raids,dungeons),it could be gotten from PVP also or by crafting. as long as people do what they like and get rewards for it they will be happy. if someone is forced to do something he doesn’t like just to stay competitive,he wont play for long.
let’s face it guys,we’ve all ” been there,dont that”, hardly any MMO with a normal concept will make anyone happy,WOW has ruined that for everyone. new concepts are needed and exciting story driven content with a rabbit on the stick is a good start.
</blockquote>
GW2 and ESO where not Sandbox MMORPGS. There are Themepark MMORPGs where you focus on building content for people to consume. The reason why ESO does not work is the entire focus of the game was a WOW style leveling system with PVE dungeons then switch to Solely PVP in 1 zone. That is a piss poor design and I said it the day the information came out about ESO.
Ashes needs to focus on the SANDBOX part of being an MMORPG. Which is not gear progression. It is progression of the world. Its building player run cities. Its going where you want and killing what you want. Its doing stuff like UO style treasure hunting. Or Running a dungeon for the hell of it. Should easily buy gear from any player run vendor in the game that the player wants to buy and forget about gear progression.
If you never played an MMORPG prior to 2004 WOW then you do not understand. You are comparing WOW Clones to WOW Clones just with changes in how things are done. There is no comparison to games like SWG, or UO, or other Pre-WOW MMORPGS because they are not the same build. Hell Even BDO its a WOW Clone. Albion Online would be a good representation of MMORPGS prior to WOW, but you dont need full corpse looting and all that which Albion Online has. The point is you do not need gear progression in Ashes. If that is what you want there are already how many MMORPGS on the market that have that design. Ashes should be designed just like Pre-WOW MMORPGS are. The reason for that is the lack of newer MMORPGS with Pre-WOW design because everyone thinks they will be the next WOW if they clone WOW. That didnt work for LOTRO, DDO, Rift, FFXIV, SWTOR and so on. Yes some better than others BUT the point still stands they are not better for being a WOW clone. Ashes must be different.
[/quote]
you have your opinion,i have mine. don't mistake yours more valid then mine. give your opinion and let others give theirs.
i've played games before and after WoW,i don't base my opinion on MMOs solely on experience i had there. i prefer PvP over PvE,Warhammer online was my favorite MMO due to reasons you might not undertand.
2: I’m not sure you can do that nowadays. Automated grouping tools to me, are terrible, because you often end up with bad people/players – generally speaking.
3: Thats the million dollar question to which again, I have no idea. I don’t even know if its possible.
4: The only game I can think of that didn’t fall into that trap (completely) was CoH – when you wne into a dungeon it was randomly generated etc. Even that though got boring after awhile.[/quote]
Let's focus on this so we can understand one another. I understand a bit about FFXI, I played it for 6 months before WOW. It was fun but well I hated that 100+ people would be farming a single mob for 1 item like the pally sword I wanted.
What I do not want is a game where people come in here and click on button queque up for a dungeon and never talk. That is never good for a game that wants to be sandbox like and wants reliance on player interaction. Queues kill player interaction and then just make all aspects of the game garbage.
I also dont want games like I am playing right now where I have to log in daily 5 times a week to cap my stones just to buy gear. This type of game play believe it or not burns a lot of players out too quickly. So while its efficient its detrimental to subscriptions because when subs drop that means less revenue for the game.
So what I am seeing is a 2 fold problem. First problem is that Dungeons become repetitive with because to gear up you have to run the content over and over until you get an RNG drop OR you get enough stones to buy gear. Both have a high burnout rate now in MMORPGs which again circles back to revenue and its very important for a healthy game, you dont need WOW numbers but if you go from 500K subs to under 100K subs because people are bored because the content got so repetitive that is no good.
The second problem is creating content that requires groups to consistently progress ended up with people bitching endlessly for Duty Finde /LFD/LFR. Which kills the social aspect, social ties so people are playing a single player game and then dont have ties to keep them playing.
My Solution is to scrap the model for a system that gear is not the solo focus. Yea I get that well you dont feel like you are getting powerful because gear is not dropping. I get that I hear where you are coming from. I feel there is still away to do that if you focus on players making Gold. The reason is, is gold can buy you a better house, it can buy you gear, hell it can buy you a bounty hunter killing a PKer. It's universal and can get you what ever you want. You can also make Dungeons true dungeons again and not some 15 minute ride. What I am saying is you then answer my 4 questions and you are keeping away from 2 very tough issues for MMORPGS. You also can build more social ties into the game with a heavy reliance on always needing crafters around because maybe you take them through a dungeon and let them grab up all the crafting mats they can use.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12076" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Ok lets start over here and see where we can get to.
First how can you create Dungeons and Raids without being setup in a way that is not a WOW/FFXIV/ETC game clone?
Two, How can you have Dungeons and Raids without making the weekend warrior happy who wants Community killing tools like Automated Group Finders, Duty Finder, LFD/LFR and so on?
Three, How can you create a dungeon and Raid setup without being a 10 minute rinse and repeat setup like the rest of the MMORPG game genera right now?
Four, How can you make it so that people are not doing the same 2 or 3 dungeons over and over and over again for the same gear that everyone else has? Basically make gear interesting and not create a treadmill where gear is replaced every 2 or 3 months which is why MMORPG subs drop like a rock when people complete the treadmill.
</blockquote>
[/quote]
I'll even answer this...
1) The way you are even talking about setting it up is EXACTLY like WoW/FFXIV/etc. without the higher level gear. THE EXACT SAME just with dropping mounts/gold/glamour gear, so this question is irellevant.
2)Plenty of people are happy without the LFG tool and tools like that. It brings bad and toxic players to the game and those that bitch and complain about not having one probably don't need to be running it in the first place. There is a greater sense of community and fun when you ahve to go out and actually ask in general chat for people that want to run a dungeon. You wont make everyone happy but its better to piss off the toxic weekend warriors who are going to cry about that kind of stuff who are probably bad players looking to be carried anyway.
3) another irrelevant question as it applies to the first one. I haven't seen you give any kind of example of how to change a dungeon aside from "NO GEAR TREADMILL, NO 10 MIN RINSE AND REPEAT" With just being a gold/mater/glamour setup it would be the exact same as a gear treadmill dungeon, just with those items instead of gear, so another irrelevant question.
4) and yet ANOTHER irrelevant question, because even with the mounts/gold/materials/glamour gear that you were suggesting instead of the gear treadmill, people will still be doing the same dungeons over and over for the mounts/materials/gold/glamour.
Now im not expecting you to come up with all the answers because not everyone has them. And i know this was a "how can we fix this" thread so suggestions are gonna be thrown around, but don't say just because we like gear progression we need to go back to WoW/FFXIV. It's going to be a small aspect of the game (or not) and if gear progression is in game i will run dungeons happily, if not then i probably wont because there will be no incentive for me personally to do so
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12080" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12076" rel="nofollow">ScardyFox wrote:</a></div>
Ok lets start over here and see where we can get to.
First how can you create Dungeons and Raids without being setup in a way that is not a WOW/FFXIV/ETC game clone?
Two, How can you have Dungeons and Raids without making the weekend warrior happy who wants Community killing tools like Automated Group Finders, Duty Finder, LFD/LFR and so on?
Three, How can you create a dungeon and Raid setup without being a 10 minute rinse and repeat setup like the rest of the MMORPG game genera right now?
Four, How can you make it so that people are not doing the same 2 or 3 dungeons over and over and over again for the same gear that everyone else has? Basically make gear interesting and not create a treadmill where gear is replaced every 2 or 3 months which is why MMORPG subs drop like a rock when people complete the treadmill.
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
I’ll even answer this…
1) The way you are even talking about setting it up is EXACTLY like WoW/FFXIV/etc. without the higher level gear. THE EXACT SAME just with dropping mounts/gold/glamour gear, so this question is irellevant.
2)Plenty of people are happy without the LFG tool and tools like that. It brings bad and toxic players to the game and those that bitch and complain about not having one probably don’t need to be running it in the first place. There is a greater sense of community and fun when you ahve to go out and actually ask in general chat for people that want to run a dungeon. You wont make everyone happy but its better to piss off the toxic weekend warriors who are going to cry about that kind of stuff who are probably bad players looking to be carried anyway.
3) another irrelevant question as it applies to the first one. I haven’t seen you give any kind of example of how to change a dungeon aside from “NO GEAR TREADMILL, NO 10 MIN RINSE AND REPEAT” With just being a gold/mater/glamour setup it would be the exact same as a gear treadmill dungeon, just with those items instead of gear, so another irrelevant question.
4) and yet ANOTHER irrelevant question, because even with the mounts/gold/materials/glamour gear that you were suggesting instead of the gear treadmill, people will still be doing the same dungeons over and over for the mounts/materials/gold/glamour.
Now im not expecting you to come up with all the answers because not everyone has them. And i know this was a “how can we fix this” thread so suggestions are gonna be thrown around, but don’t say just because we like gear progression we need to go back to WoW/FFXIV. It’s going to be a small aspect of the game (or not) and if gear progression is in game i will run dungeons happily, if not then i probably wont because there will be no incentive for me personally to do so
[/quote]
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/ideas-to-help-keep-dungeons-from-becoming-so-repetitive/#post-6857/">ideas to help keep dungeons from becoming so repetitive </a> This is one of my post which I came up with solutions to my questions. Please spend some time and reading them.
<a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/crafting-vs-gear-dropped-from-bosses/">Craafting vs Gear Dropped from Bosses</a>
If you read my ideas that I have posted in other threads and sit down and think about what I am proposing you will get an overview of what I am saying.
You would also see that you wouldnt be doing Dungeons just for Gear. You would be doing it for Gold so you can do stuff like buy mats for your siege that is going to happen this Saturday. Or maybe your guild is small on a level 2 node but you want to use the level 6 node's crafting stations near you, get some gold hire players to protect your caravan. You could do the Dungeon for your wife who loves mounts. You reduce the need to do dungeons but make it still more efficient by making it a better place for gold but not so much better that people need to farm dungeons. For example if you can farm 10K gold an hour off high end mobs, not world bosses and we make dungeons challenging and something you can do in 90 minutes to 2 hours. Drop 25K gold off the last boss plus some gold off mobs and bosses. It might come to about 30K gold when done but it needs to be tough like Vanilla WOW or TBC WOW tough not today's Dungeon bosses. Something that makes it so if players dont really want to farm it and put the effort in they will spend the extra hour or so farming.
Now that does not include stuff that you can sell. There is no way to balance that and you shouldnt balance that.
i’ve played games before and after WoW,i don’t base my opinion on MMOs solely on experience i had there. i prefer PvP over PvE,Warhammer online was my favorite MMO due to reasons you might not undertand[/quote]
I base my opinion on the tens of thousands of hours I played MMORPGS. I am not joking when I can tell you I been playing MMORPGs since 1998. I have played more than 2 dozen MMORPGs, been in more than a Dozen Beta and alphas. I base my opinion on everything I have ever played and what I seen work as well as the times today with MMORPGS. I am not saying yours is not valid, but I am saying that its time for MMORPGS to get away from the WOW clones with changes so its not exactly WOW because that formula is not working. Its also made MMORPGS very stale.
What I feel would work is more focus on older school Sandbox designs like a SWG or UO vs the run of the mill MMORPGS. One of my grips about Wildstar when I was in the beta was it felt like WOW and was trying to be Vanilla WOW with a little better casual feel. I brought up the same thing then, why are you trying to copy WOW when these same people will go back to WOW? Look at wildstar today? This is why I want games like Ashes and Pantheon to succeed with older school designs because it will show that the formula for MMORPGS are broke. Hell Star Citizen could have been something but it is P2W. That game could have been great if one it didnt allow scope creep and 2 didnt focus on buying space ships that have power.
[/quote]
That does not sound bad either. The problem then becomes how do make it not feel like a grind. Right for example with FFXIV its a grind. You have to do X amount of dungeons a week to Cap your stones. You have to do that for X amount of weeks until you have all your pieces of gear. This gets very boring.
So how do you make it not a grind or less pronounced a grind? We need to be careful with grinds because if you ever played SWG when the added holocrons. That Jedi grind broke a lot of players. Since everyone wanted a Jedi you had to grind 2 progressions up to max skills. Those 2 you knew of, the 3rd you had to find on your own and players spend thousands of hours grinding. I can tell you from personal experience that my guild of about 50 people went down to 8 of us about 3 months after the holocrons. It dropped like a rock because everyone was grinding for a jedi. That grind pissed them off and in the end they quit playing. A friend of mind named Goji quit MMORPGS all together on that day.
Then grinding was acceptable to some level but some grinds well are just too much. Today though people dont like the grind as much. So if you got any ideas throw them out there about balancing the grind. (WOW fishing Grind nightmares)
$0.02: Random generated dungeons. Though that would have a Diablo-ish feel to it.
[/quote]
Ok so yes Vanilla WOW had great gear progression. I will agree with that and I loved that. Here is your critical problem. Wildstar tried that and look where Wildstar is today? It is one step from shutting down. The reason why is outside a very small group of players will do that grind ever again. I know I was a raid leader during MC and BWL. I can tell you I will never again do that shit with 40 people. The drama on an epic scale is not fun. Add to that it takes a lot of hours to balance the content in that way. What other content will suffer when you already know that another game tried to clone Vanilla WOW and did an epic fail?
I am not saying the content was bad. It was great. The gear progression too was great because it really meant something when you got the gear. But how many people today really care who has what gear anymore. I can tell you I am not going to look at another Warrior today in Tier 2 WOW gear while I am on Tier 1 working on Tier 2. I am going to basically say its a waste of time. Besides how many people who use to raid 4 days a week, 8pm to 1am could do that again today? I sure the hell cannot. So you create what could be very good content for honestly less than what a few hundred people?
Now I am not saying everything should be for everyone BUT I am saying this it will take a lot of time to develop that really high quality content without getting a real benefit out of it. You would be better off with tiered Dungeons that scale form 5 to 12 players. This way you dont need a bench because if you have a static 12 players and only have 7 today you take 7. The problem is balancing the boss fights for that type of content to make it challenging enough for the scale of players as well as all the different class combos. This might be more doable but it still becomes a gear treadmill because you run on 1 tier until you get to the next tier. Again it can still burn people out, the question then becomes can some of this gear be crafted by crafters but take the mats from these bosses to make? You do that and it might work better. The problem is you end up with power creep and raiding curves. Players who got behind the raiding curves could have issues catching up, but the scaled content could help reduce this problem.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12101" rel="nofollow">Tholren wrote:</a></div>
Lineage II (C1-Interlude) had one of the best gear systems I’ve ever seen, and I hope they take it as inspiration. Especially considering the other similarities in this game. The way it worked was that gear was acquired through crafting, with insane amounts of materials and 60% chance recipes. I actually thought it was great, since the frustrating and arduous grind was a great filter. I understand such a system wouldn’t work in today’s market, but with some adjustments certain similarities can remain.
</blockquote>
That does not sound bad either. The problem then becomes how do make it not feel like a grind. Right for example with FFXIV its a grind. You have to do X amount of dungeons a week to Cap your stones. You have to do that for X amount of weeks until you have all your pieces of gear. This gets very boring.
So how do you make it not a grind or less pronounced a grind? We need to be careful with grinds because if you ever played SWG when the added holocrons. That Jedi grind broke a lot of players. Since everyone wanted a Jedi you had to grind 2 progressions up to max skills. Those 2 you knew of, the 3rd you had to find on your own and players spend thousands of hours grinding. I can tell you from personal experience that my guild of about 50 people went down to 8 of us about 3 months after the holocrons. It dropped like a rock because everyone was grinding for a jedi. That grind pissed them off and in the end they quit playing. A friend of mind named Goji quit MMORPGS all together on that day.
Then grinding was acceptable to some level but some grinds well are just too much. Today though people dont like the grind as much. So if you got any ideas throw them out there about balancing the grind. (WOW fishing Grind nightmares)
[/quote]
Unfortunately you can't fix the grind, its going to be in every single MMO out there in some form. AoC is going to be no exception. The only thing that is going to make the grind absolutely fantastic is the new world, the new experience, the new node system that hasn't been done before. You can't get away from the grind when there is any kind of leveling system or need for money :(
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12110" rel="nofollow">Bornforexile wrote:</a></div>
3) another irrelevant question as it applies to the first one. I haven’t seen you give any kind of example of how to change a dungeon aside from “NO GEAR TREADMILL, NO 10 MIN RINSE AND REPEAT” With just being a gold/mater/glamour setup it would be the exact same as a gear treadmill dungeon, just with those items instead of gear, so another irrelevant question.
</blockquote>
$0.02: Random generated dungeons. Though that would have a Diablo-ish feel to it.
[/quote]
+1
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/3/#post-12098" rel="nofollow">Mortix wrote:</a></div>
you have your opinion,i have mine. don’t mistake yours more valid then mine. give your opinion and let others give theirs.
i’ve played games before and after WoW,i don’t base my opinion on MMOs solely on experience i had there. i prefer PvP over PvE,Warhammer online was my favorite MMO due to reasons you might not undertand
</blockquote>
I base my opinion on the tens of thousands of hours I played MMORPGS. I am not joking when I can tell you I been playing MMORPGs since 1998. I have played more than 2 dozen MMORPGs, been in more than a Dozen Beta and alphas. I base my opinion on everything I have ever played and what I seen work as well as the times today with MMORPGS. I am not saying yours is not valid, but I am saying that its time for MMORPGS to get away from the WOW clones with changes so its not exactly WOW because that formula is not working. Its also made MMORPGS very stale.
What I feel would work is more focus on older school Sandbox designs like a SWG or UO vs the run of the mill MMORPGS. One of my grips about Wildstar when I was in the beta was it felt like WOW and was trying to be Vanilla WOW with a little better casual feel. I brought up the same thing then, why are you trying to copy WOW when these same people will go back to WOW? Look at wildstar today? This is why I want games like Ashes and Pantheon to succeed with older school designs because it will show that the formula for MMORPGS are broke. Hell Star Citizen could have been something but it is P2W. That game could have been great if one it didnt allow scope creep and 2 didnt focus on buying space ships that have power.
[/quote]
i played every MMO from SWG to BDO and inbetween,does that make my opinion more valid then someone else? no.
people don't go back to WoW because it's the best MMO,Wildstar for instance had every aspect better (except arena).
they go back because of the original feeling they had playing that game,nostalgia,friendship,endless hours exploring and sharing that experience with friends. it's a safe thing,they know Blizz will take all the good things from other games and give it to their players so in a way,other games aren't really copying WoW,it's WoW that's leeching of them. WoW didn't invent the genre,Blizz just hit the right spot at the right time.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12133" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12101" rel="nofollow">Tholren wrote:</a></div>
Lineage II (C1-Interlude) had one of the best gear systems I’ve ever seen, and I hope they take it as inspiration. Especially considering the other similarities in this game. The way it worked was that gear was acquired through crafting, with insane amounts of materials and 60% chance recipes. I actually thought it was great, since the frustrating and arduous grind was a great filter. I understand such a system wouldn’t work in today’s market, but with some adjustments certain similarities can remain.
</blockquote>
That does not sound bad either. The problem then becomes how do make it not feel like a grind. Right for example with FFXIV its a grind. You have to do X amount of dungeons a week to Cap your stones. You have to do that for X amount of weeks until you have all your pieces of gear. This gets very boring.
So how do you make it not a grind or less pronounced a grind? We need to be careful with grinds because if you ever played SWG when the added holocrons. That Jedi grind broke a lot of players. Since everyone wanted a Jedi you had to grind 2 progressions up to max skills. Those 2 you knew of, the 3rd you had to find on your own and players spend thousands of hours grinding. I can tell you from personal experience that my guild of about 50 people went down to 8 of us about 3 months after the holocrons. It dropped like a rock because everyone was grinding for a jedi. That grind pissed them off and in the end they quit playing. A friend of mind named Goji quit MMORPGS all together on that day.
Then grinding was acceptable to some level but some grinds well are just too much. Today though people dont like the grind as much. So if you got any ideas throw them out there about balancing the grind. (WOW fishing Grind nightmares)
</blockquote>
Unfortunately you can’t fix the grind, its going to be in every single MMO out there in some form. AoC is going to be no exception. The only thing that is going to make the grind absolutely fantastic is the new world, the new experience, the new node system that hasn’t been done before. You can’t get away from the grind when there is any kind of leveling system or need for money <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f641.svg" />
[/quote]
No you cannot fix the grind. But you can make it feel less like a grind. For example in UO when I was working on getting gold for my house in the game I would get a Earth Shattering Kat and go into the first level of Shame and kill Earth Elementals. It was a grind but that was not the only way to make money. I could have done other dungeons with other mobs. Because I could chose what I could do or how I would make gold for the house I was not pigeon holed into 1 way of getting the gold for the house. This is what I am trying to suggest here. Players can craft, Gather, Do Dungeons, Do PVP, Go kill random mobs or what ever they want to get gold for gear because then you are not grinding. When I think of grinding I think of doing the same repetitive activity over and over with no options to do something else. Again in UO I could kill ementals for a day and then tomorrow make recall scrolls to sell, then the next day after that make gear to sell, then after that take my bard and provoke Shadow Wyrms.
Again its a grind but its different than today's grinds.
they go back because of the original feeling they had playing that game,nostalgia,friendship,endless hours exploring and sharing that experience with friends. it’s a safe thing,they know Blizz will take all the good things from other games and give it to their players so in a way,other games aren’t really copying WoW,it’s WoW that’s leeching of them. WoW didn’t invent the genre,Blizz just hit the right spot at the right time.[/quote]
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this. Wildstar didnt have every aspect better than WOW. If it did wouldnt people be playing Wildstar in droves? Yes. But it didnt. It was trying to be Vanilla WOW and failed 1 because of the cost of the game, 2 because the MMORPG Population changed that the hard core raider of Vanilla WOW is just no longer there.
Also I have countless friends that go back to WOW. They hold WOW up to every other game out there, you also see that on countless MMORPG forms out there on why WOW is so much better than every other MMORPG out there. Its because they say why play X game when WOW has more or what I would agree with you leechs off other features from other games. Which other games do clone WOW. You dont see many games trying to do like Pantheon is doing which is an EQ1 clone.
Yes Blizzard hit the timing right but also balanced the social aspect of MMORPGS and the Challenge of MMORPGS. Also people then where more willing to put up with in fighting in the middle of an MC Raid.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/the-dreaded-gear-treadmill/page/4/#post-12144" rel="nofollow">Bornforexile wrote:</a></div>
No you cannot fix the grind. But you can make it feel less like a grind. For example in UO when I was working on getting gold for my house in the game I would get a Earth Shattering Kat and go into the first level of Shame and kill Earth Elementals. It was a grind but that was not the only way to make money. I could have done other dungeons with other mobs. Because I could chose what I could do or how I would make gold for the house I was not pigeon holed into 1 way of getting the gold for the house. This is what I am trying to suggest here. Players can craft, Gather, Do Dungeons, Do PVP, Go kill random mobs or what ever they want to get gold for gear because then you are not grinding. When I think of grinding I think of doing the same repetitive activity over and over with no options to do something else. Again in UO I could kill ementals for a day and then tomorrow make recall scrolls to sell, then the next day after that make gear to sell, then after that take my bard and provoke Shadow Wyrms.
Again its a grind but its different than today’s grinds.
[/quote]
But that wasnt your original argument, your original argument was to make crafted gear really the only gear and only make dungeon gear , what we call in WoW, transmog gear
<strong>Everquest</strong> -
Like - Gear was meaningful, one piece of gear could take you months to get, and the epic quest took me over a year. I liked how even without gear I could still be usefull to a group, *as a ranger being able to pull mobs at a steady peace without adds was difficult and being good at it made you valuable*. And I appreciated the change in gameplay mechanics due to obtaining certain items *You were better off doing meele until you got a certain bow and AA's afterwhich you became primarily range dmg*
Dislike- Needing 70+ people to all be online at the same time to do a 4 hour raid which at the end only dropped 1-3 items that you may or may not need. Half the content in the game was limited to hardcore players and was hidden behind a gear cap.
<strong>SWG</strong>-
Like - The introduction of item decay created a steady demand for items which kept the crafters and merchants happy,
Dislike - Best in slot gear was to easy to obtain and gear at this point felt like a tool needed to get the job done, the feeling of *omg I can't believe I finally got this* was gone. Also it became a bit of a burden - *oh lets go hunt a jedi...... oh darn I don't have all the things I need let me go shop for the next hour to get them*
<strong>WOW Vanila</strong> -
Like - Gear was hard to get but not as hard as EQ, and some of the more difficult to obtain items were only obtainable by a few *Hand of Rag* and when you had those items everyone knew who you were *Legendary Items making people legendary*. Also I liked getting PVP gear from PVE, it incentivized me to go PVE.
Dislike - RNG on class specific items that would drop. Occasionally we would get 10x pally drops in a row with only 2-3 pallies then you would get 1 hunter drop and you would have 10 hunters, this lead to what felt like I lot of wasted time. Later on they came out with BG specific gear that was slightly less then raid gear, and then High Warlord gear which was godlike, It was at this point I started PVEing a little less because best in slot gear for PVP now came from PVPing.
<strong>Everquest2</strong> -
Like - mini bosses that you would cross while grinding in a party would drop intermediate gear that would prepare you for raiding, High rated crafted gear was usefull. And Crafted skill updages also made crafting invaluable. Had many of the same perks as EQ
Dislike - randomness of Loot, lead to alot of raid nights that were just a waste of time.
<strong>Darkfall</strong>
Like - Top gear items were difficult to come by. Only a few crafters could make certain items and the rare mats required usually meant people had to pool resources into one-two people to get them to the point they could actually make the items. Gear decay also created a constant demand for items. Also since it was a full loot pvp game, Gear provided an advantage but someone in the best gear *really hard to obtain* could be out played and beat by someone with a few tiers lower gear, also 1 player with top end gear couldn't 1v10 people, but an amazing player with top end gear could 1v10 people. Also t1-t4 gear wasn't that difficult to obtain but t5 gear was very difficult, and it only provided the same amount of increase as lets say t2 to t3 or t3 to t4.
Dislike- Item decay in the game lead people to use their gear in PVE until it was very low dura then go PVP with it, that way if it was lost the person would recieve a crap item that was about to break. Also that *omg I got this item* didn't really exist and people rarely used their best gear because of the risk and because of the decay in item durability.
<strong>SWTOR</strong>
Like - Nothing, offered nothing new.
Dislike - Best PVP gear came from PVP, I don't think I ever did any endgame PVE in that game.
<strong>Blade and Soul</strong>
Like/Dislike - Most gear in that game was just upgraded over time, it was an interesting approach not sure how I felt about it. *the weapon you got around level 20 is the weapon you used the entire game you just raided for mats to upgrade that weapon to its next tier.
<strong>Black Desert </strong>
Like- That feeling when you get a rare boss dropped item either from the AH or off the boss themself.
Dislike - When your TET boss item fails to enchant and downgrades to TRI for the 100th time. I think this game taught us that RNG elements that result in a loss of progression isn't the best of ideas.
I think gear is important in an MMO. Building up your character and making them stronger is something that gives people meaning. I'm not saying this couldn't change but in my opinion you have two options. Make gear the driving factor, or make skill the driving factor, or some combination of the two. Usually if gear is the driving factor less skilled players can be gear carried which allows them to compete, however if something is skill carried to much, then low skilled players end up constantly unable to do content or compete in pvp. Also maybe consider something like AA's from everquest, they were alternate skills that were gained by grinding that made your character much more powerfull.