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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
[Caution, requires thinking] Dragonslayers: Why you need PVP in this game
Now I'm sure most of you wont watch this video that explains your exact problem, and why your proposed solution is strictly inferior in every way, because its complicated and uninteresting but if you don't understand the god of war example @ 2 minutes then you're probably a lost cause.
This is not a new problem to MMOs and as a veteran of WoW private servers, its not uncommon to find max level chars hanging out at level ~20 quest hubs ganking people and killing NPCs. Even though this is a great inconvenience and absolutely CRUSHING to your exp per hour statistics.... its required, in the bigger picture, for you to enjoy the game you're playing long term.
Please watch, Exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBR1z-ue-I
-Prisom
This is not a new problem to MMOs and as a veteran of WoW private servers, its not uncommon to find max level chars hanging out at level ~20 quest hubs ganking people and killing NPCs. Even though this is a great inconvenience and absolutely CRUSHING to your exp per hour statistics.... its required, in the bigger picture, for you to enjoy the game you're playing long term.
Please watch, Exhibit A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBR1z-ue-I
-Prisom
0
Comments
Something got lost in translation I think
:D
Something got lost in translation I think
<img alt="" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f600.svg" />
[/quote]
PVP adds "differences in kind" situations. Instead of picking berries completely safe until the basket is full, you always feel that "something unexpected' could happen. When it does, it is a completely different situation...
I don't know if I'll do much of pvp combat aside from caravan battles, or larger scale. Still will make the world interesting tho to have some random pvp, long as it isn't capable of allowing griefing.
In conjunction with Building/Destruction.
Players killing players....not so much.
PvP is everywhere. There are certainly penalties for people killing those who aren't flagged for it, and those penalties become cumulative over time.
But even if you're not flagged for PvP, yes, the "fear" is always there that you could potentially be attacked.
So I'm not sure what the OP is really driving at. CoE is already doing what s/he wants, to my understanding thus far.
PvP is everywhere. There are certainly penalties for people killing those who aren’t flagged for it, and those penalties become cumulative over time.
But even if you’re not flagged for PvP, yes, the “fear” is always there that you could potentially be attacked.
So I’m not sure what the OP is really driving at. CoE is already doing what s/he wants, to my understanding thus far.
[/quote]
I agree with what you said and so did my OP. This is directed towards the people who are arguing that anything that involves players directly killing other players is bad.
Care Bears wanna be cared for.
-Prisom
Well, to play devil's advocate... they're entitled to think it's "bad"; they're entitled to not like it/not enjoy it happening to them.
The flipside is, of course, that they're backing a game where it can still happen to them, so the only way to avoid it, is to not back.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18711" rel="nofollow">phocus26 wrote:</a></div>
I agree with what you said and so did my OP. This is directed towards the people who are arguing that anything that involves players directly killing other players is bad.
</blockquote>
Well, to play devil’s advocate… they’re entitled to think it’s “bad”; they’re entitled to not like it/not enjoy it happening to them.
The flipside is, of course, that they’re backing a game where it can still happen to them, so the only way to avoid it, is to not back.
[/quote]
It has nothing to do with Devil's Advocate. I will put it in plain English. The TLDR of the video. This game would be strictly worse without the PvP. The game would be monotonous, vanilla and garbage. It would just be a super pretty care bear game that would not attract a large audience and would eventually die let alone breaking any barriers, which is exactly what the creators are trying to do.
The OP is not saying its bad to dislike PvP. It's not bad to dislike tomatoes. Tons of people hate tomatoes. Spaghetti without tomatoes is strictly worse. Has nothing to do with right or wrong, like or dislike. It needs the tomatoes just like good games need the monotony broken and in this case, PvP.
Thanks,
Lex
I especially get the feeling you only read the last one (which, by the way, has a perfect example of me playing devil's advocate on behalf of how people who are backing the game feel, but let's not bog down on that ), and not the first one.
TL;DR - I'm perfectly fine with the way PvP is handled in AoC. No need to be arguing it out with me.
I especially get the feeling you only read the last one (which, by the way, has a perfect example of me playing devil’s advocate on behalf of how people who are backing the game feel, but let’s not bog down on that ), and not the first one.
TL;DR – I’m perfectly fine with the way PvP is handled in AoC. No need to be arguing it out with me.
[/quote]
I did understand your quote you just didn't read my spaghetti response. I will rephrase. They may not like PvP but a game without PvP is a worse game for not having it. You need to break up the PvE. You need to have risk and reward.
But to your point, yes. If they don't like it go play some inferior game that has no PvP in it and stop trying to belittle this title.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18711" rel="nofollow">phocus26 wrote:</a></div>
I agree with what you said and so did my OP. This is directed towards the people who are arguing that anything that involves players directly killing other players is bad.
</blockquote>
Well, to play devil’s advocate… they’re entitled to think it’s “bad”; they’re entitled to not like it/not enjoy it happening to them.
The flipside is, of course, that they’re backing a game where it can still happen to them, so the only way to avoid it, is to not back.
[/quote]
You are missing the point, Sir. You are making the false assumption that just because you/they don't like something you/they shouldn't have to do it.
Since we're talking about food, lets say that spaghetti with tomato sauce is your favorite meal. If you eat spaghetti with tomato sauce, every. single. day. You will get tired of it. It doesn't matter how much you LOOOOVE spaghetti, you will get tired of it if all you eat is spaghetti with tomato sauce. If you take a break for a while though... eat some soup/sandwiches/salads, maybe spaghetti with pesto sauce and THEN go back to eating spaghetti with tomato sauce you'll realize "Man! I really love spaghetti with tomato sauce!"
Even though NOTHING compares to spaghetti with tomato sauce, you'll enjoy your spaghetti more by eating other things that you like less.
-Prisom
[/quote]
In all fairness, I know of some industrialists and PVE players who singularly love to get into PVE, and nothing else. And they are monstrously good at it. When we are in a system which encourages interdependent behavior in partnership between leaders, PVP and PVE players, it becomes the leaders' job to ensure PVE players have a safe environment to do what they want and produce the materiel PVP players need to fight with, and in return PVP players provide that security which PVE players need to continue their economic activities.
We need to stop making the assumption of "Oh no, my PVE bros are simply going to get ganked" and start planning for how players on both sides of the PVE/PVP aisle can help each other out.
Personally as much as I love pvp, I find killing the same player over and over again with ease to be boring and pointless; Adding severe penalties to such behavior is going to deter people even more, though not in all cases.
If something as litttle as being killed in a virtual world once or twice a day deters you from playing an otherwise enjoyable game I feel that's a personal problem you might want to look into. As mentioned above you're not going to like everything that you have to do but you may still need to do it at some point.
Like providing a PvE server for those players who don't like PvP combat.
Sounds like Skyrim to me, I'm gonna go play some.
Like providing a PvE server for those players who don’t like PvP combat.
[/quote]
This server would get five times the population of a PvP one ^^
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18950" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
What I find amusing in all this is that the people who are crying the most about the open world PvP appear to be the crafters, which is fair enough I guess since in most games those types of players are easy pickings for PKers. However, what they forget to mention is that crafting for long periods of time can get very very boring, and so bringing in that unknown element of potentially dieing to ganks makes the experience more interesting.
</blockquote>
In all fairness, I know of some industrialists and PVE players who singularly love to get into PVE, and nothing else. And they are monstrously good at it. When we are in a system which encourages interdependent behavior in partnership between leaders, PVP and PVE players, it becomes the leaders’ job to ensure PVE players have a safe environment to do what they want and produce the materiel PVP players need to fight with, and in return PVP players provide that security which PVE players need to continue their economic activities.
We need to stop making the assumption of “Oh no, my PVE bros are simply going to get ganked” and start planning for how players on both sides of the PVE/PVP aisle can help each other out.
[/quote]
^ This guy gets it
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18950" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
What I find amusing in all this is that the people who are crying the most about the open world PvP appear to be the crafters, which is fair enough I guess since in most games those types of players are easy pickings for PKers. However, what they forget to mention is that crafting for long periods of time can get very very boring, and so bringing in that unknown element of potentially dieing to ganks makes the experience more interesting.
</blockquote>
In all fairness, I know of some industrialists and PVE players who singularly love to get into PVE, and nothing else. And they are monstrously good at it. When we are in a system which encourages interdependent behavior in partnership between leaders, PVP and PVE players, it becomes the leaders’ job to ensure PVE players have a safe environment to do what they want and produce the materiel PVP players need to fight with, and in return PVP players provide that security which PVE players need to continue their economic activities.
We need to stop making the assumption of “Oh no, my PVE bros are simply going to get ganked” and start planning for how players on both sides of the PVE/PVP aisle can help each other out.
[/quote]
Gotta say I agree with this person 100%.
Sometimes people seem to look at PVP and PVE like 2 different things which have nothing to do with each other. The fact is, that in this game they pretty much depend on one another. How I see it from the information that we currently have, is that the community will be able to interact with each other and form very meaningful alliances. If someone does not like what is going on in another node (as an example) they can do their part in challenging the development of said node. If this catches enough attention, people from said node can fight back and protect what is theirs. I am a player who usually sticks to PVE and crafting, but I really like the sound of how PVP and PVE in this game will interact and impact each other in such a meaningful way.
[/quote]
Not all the crafters. I love the Idea of having OWPVP and I am a crafter. I like too the corruption system as well and feel as long as it is balanced properly there should be no issue for me. I will have a few friends with while I am gathering. Now if I can get PKed in my own house that might be an issue. I think its people who dont want anything to do with PVP period and they feel that they should be catered to no matter if it will chance what this game is. They just need to either play the game and see or go play another game that is designed for them.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18958" rel="nofollow">Davlos wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18950" rel="nofollow">midnight-shadow wrote:</a></div>
What I find amusing in all this is that the people who are crying the most about the open world PvP appear to be the crafters, which is fair enough I guess since in most games those types of players are easy pickings for PKers. However, what they forget to mention is that crafting for long periods of time can get very very boring, and so bringing in that unknown element of potentially dieing to ganks makes the experience more interesting.
</blockquote>
In all fairness, I know of some industrialists and PVE players who singularly love to get into PVE, and nothing else. And they are monstrously good at it. When we are in a system which encourages interdependent behavior in partnership between leaders, PVP and PVE players, it becomes the leaders’ job to ensure PVE players have a safe environment to do what they want and produce the materiel PVP players need to fight with, and in return PVP players provide that security which PVE players need to continue their economic activities.
We need to stop making the assumption of “Oh no, my PVE bros are simply going to get ganked” and start planning for how players on both sides of the PVE/PVP aisle can help each other out.
</blockquote>
Gotta say I agree with this person 100%.
Sometimes people seem to look at PVP and PVE like 2 different things which have nothing to do with each other. The fact is, that in this game they pretty much depend on one another. How I see it from the information that we currently have, is that the community will be able to interact with each other and form very meaningful alliances. If someone does not like what is going on in another node (as an example) they can do their part in challenging the development of said node. If this catches enough attention, people from said node can fight back and protect what is theirs. I am a player who usually sticks to PVE and crafting, but I really like the sound of how PVP and PVE in this game will interact and impact each other in such a meaningful way.
[/quote]
I agree with all 3 of you guys.
Not all the crafters. I love the Idea of having OWPVP and I am a crafter. I like too the corruption system as well and feel as long as it is balanced properly there should be no issue for me. I will have a few friends with while I am gathering. Now if I can get PKed in my own house that might be an issue. I think its people who dont want anything to do with PVP period and they feel that they should be catered to no matter if it will chance what this game is. They just need to either play the game and see or go play another game that is designed for them.
[/quote]To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don't want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not.
Just for you Dygz ;)
http://wizard.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/carebare.png
-Prisom
I think the main thing we need to stop doing (both sides) kinda boils down to a microcosm of the world currently. Many PVE oriented people already consider the PVP community people "PK/Gankers" and bad guys while many of the PVP oriented people already consider people who stick to PVE to be "Carebears." and bad guys. There's already a label. Already a preconception. It's an obstacle that we're on two different sides of before the game has even come out. While yes conflict will happen as part of the game I think that's what needs to go away as part of the pre-release community. See peoples points, provide constructive criticism while avoiding namecalling and stereotyping. Offer solutions to peoples ideas rather than just shooting them down because they are not your own.
A lot of us are already trying to do this, but I think it could always be better.
While PvP scenarios are a "difference in kind" from PvE scenarios, the video does not prove that PvP is necessary to create differences in kind; only that it is one way to create differences in kind. Furthermore, "player versus player" is not really a difference in kind on its own. A successful game should ideally feature differences in kind within the PvP sphere, and also within the PvE sphere. It's not quite so simple as calling PvP a difference in kind.
Finally, the video explains that having too many differences in kind, or failing to use them properly, can actually diminish the experience. I think the argument in favor of PvP could potentially be turned around using this logic. A person against the inclusion of PvP might say that trying to fit both PvE and PvP into the same game (or at least, on the same server) constitutes a failure to properly implement differences in kind. That person might argue that it is not only possible, but preferable, for all differences in kind to originate from the same sphere of gameplay (either PvE or PvP, but not both simultaneously.)
Like I said, I'm of the mind that PvP should be included in Ashes of Creation. And, while I like idea of going down this avenue of talking about differences in kind (any excuse to bring up Extra Credits is ok by me) the OP hasn't actually demonstrated any benefit pertaining to the inclusion of PvP, specifically. All that video shows is that a good game will have differences in kind, not that one of those differences must come in the form of player versus player encounters, nor does it show that including PvP will offer a difference in kind which enhances the gameplay experience.
The question the OP must now answer is: How might PvP provide a difference in kind that enhances the experience of a player who believes that a satisfactory number of differences in kind can be generated through a PvE-only experience?
Lots of PvE only people don't like the zeal with PvP lovers revel over killing the avatars of other players.
Lots of PvE only people don't like the PvPers vision of consensual PvP combat... the rules of engagement.
In one thread a couple days ago, I explained how on the EQNext forums, the easiest way to get banned was to have a discussion about consensual PvP.
The PvP folk would explain that if you're in a status that enables your avatar to be killed, that is implied consent at it is OK for them to attack and kill you. If you are in designated PvP space, you should not be able to be immune to PvP combat. And the PvE folk would rage at the immorality of that vision of fairness.
The PvE folk would state that just because their avatar is flagged for PvP combat against the will of the player does not mean it's OK for a player to attack them without verbal consent. Sometimes, they are in PvP space because they want to explore the whole world and they need to recon that area to complete their map. That does not mean they want to engage in PvP combat. If I have tired of engaging in PvP combat from defending a city and I just want to harvest for a while in peace I a secluded space away from PvP combat, it is not OK for someone to attacks me without my consent. And having other players act as an entourage to fight for me does nothing to alter the fact that I'm not in the mood to engage in PvP content at that moment. If that were the case then I would have just stayed at the town I was defending. I am a PvP-sometimes person. When I am in the mood, I am happy to participate in PvP combat. When I am not in the mood for PvP combat, I want to be able to participate in PvE stuff with out being involved in any way in PvP combat. "We will act as your bodyguards is not a solution." The solution is players honoring the fact that I am not in the mood to be molested by PvP combat, despite the fact that I'm not able to turn the PvP flag off for another 30 minutes.
And...the PvEers concepts of consensual PvP would send the PvPers into a rage.
One of the biggest issues is that those opposing playstyles have different values and a different set of ethics when it comes to the rules of engagement for PvP combat. Even in an OWPVP world.
Just last night, while discussing the difference between honorable PvPers and dishonorable PvPers in the AoC world I was in a debate with someone who said that attacking a non-combatant without the player's verbal consent is dishonorable and the attacker who does so is a PK griefer.
I explained that according to AoC rules, attacking a non-combatant is honorable, there is no corruption gain for attacking a combatant. Killing a non-combatant is dishonorable and will cause the killer to gain corruption.
The non-combatant can chose to not fight back and that is the clear indication that the player is not giving consent. If the attacker stops and honors that, that is the honorable response. There is no corruption score for that.
If the person attacked fights back, both will be flagged for PvP combat and that honorable combat will be rewarded by halving their death penalties.
The other person responded that the fact that the non-combatant was not already flagged for PvP is the clear indication that they are not interested in PvP combat and that attacking the non-combatant without verbal consent is griefing.
I told her I understand why she feels that way, but PvPers are not going to agree with that. And the game's mechanics don't agree with that but the game is designed by a PvP combat fan, the rules are going to be biased to reflect PvPer ethics.
So...if she actually plays AoC, she's going to spend a lot of time feeling abused. And she probably won't stick around for long. Because even if she isn't personally ganked, she's going to be disgusted by the behavior of those who attack non-combatants without verbal consent. And she's unlikely to feel inclined to support "griefers" who don't give consent before attacking a non-combatants... which will be, like, 95% of the AoC population.
The great thing about this discussion (for me) is that it's reminded me of why I keep falling into the PvP combat trap. I am a PvP combat sometimes person. I like defending cities in PvP combat...sometimes. But, because I'm a casual challenge person, I only enjoy it for maybe 30 or 45 minutes. After that, I just want to go PvE in peace.
And I'm happy to do that in a secluded place...especially while my PvP flag timer is still active. Having my friends join me so they can protect me if I get jumped is absurd. We fight as a group defending the city, but then now that I'm ready to harvest for an hour, they have to stop defending the town and watch me harvest...just in case some of the enemies find me. And then I'm expected to what? Watch them get killed if the enemy outmatched them. Not try to save them from being murdered in front of me simply because I wanted to harvest. That makes no sense. Nobody is going to agree to any of that. That's the absurd PvPer solution of fighting PvP combat with more PvP combat.
But, I always forget that part. Because I typically think..."Yes. I want to be on a PvP server with my friends. So a PvP flag server should be OK. I will flag sometimes. The problem being, when I'm no longer in the mood for PvP combat...I absolutely don't want to participate in PvP combat. And at that point, I want to be able to say to the player, "Hey, I am done with PvP combat for now, please leave me alone. We can schedule a PvP combat session some other time, but for now, I just want to harvest in peace."
But, PvPers don't honor that. So I end up moving to a PvE-only even though I enjoy PvP sometimes.
That's not only true for PvP, though.
That's actually been my temperament since I was a little kid.
I am non-competitive. I am a casual challenge guy. I am Chaotic. I like to go where the wind blows me.
When the kids on my street asked me to play basketball or football with them in order to make the teams even, I would agree, because I like being social. I don't care who wins. I'm just trying to be helpful. But...my threshold for playing was shorter than everyone else's. Playing for a couple hours might be fun, but then I'd be done. And everybody else would be pissed off because they wanted to keep playing. I might even be convince to play for another 30 minutes, but after that - I'm done.
That's probably also why I mostly solo. I rarely do dungeons and almost never raid.
I like to drop in to help fill a position for a group if they ask. But, after the dungeon is completed, I'll probably be ready to go do something else. I don't necessarily want to be stuck doing the same dungeon repeatedly just so everyone has a chance for their RNG loot.
One of the reasons that I backed AoC, is because it's actually the successor of the EQNext game design.
And, although, I am typically a carebear who avoids combat as much as possible but sometimes like defending towns in PvP combat, the examples EQNext gave of PvP conflict (which in AoC is Node v Node conflict) flipped a switch and actually turned me into an aggressor.
If I have to kill some dryads to steal their Life and transmute it into Shadow energy, which powers my Stealth abilities, I will go kill some dryads. And if I have to kill some player avatars protecting the dryads, I will kill them.
If I'm a Druid protecting the dryads and I have to blow up the dark elf processor that transmutes Life magic into Shadow energy, I will blow up that processor. And if I have to kill some dark elf player avatars protecting the processor, I will kill them.
I love that what EQNext calls PvP conflict, what AoC calls "meaningful PvP" and what I call Node v Node conflict can motivate me to become an aggressor in PvP combat. That is brilliant! And I have been eagerly awaiting that experience for over two years now.
But, writing this post has caused me to realize I have not properly evaluated the impact of time.
In the abstract, I'm going to want to defend the processor if I'm a Rogue and blow up the processor if I'm a Druid.
And any avatars attacking me to prevent me from achieving my goals will just have to be killed.
Sounds like fun. But fun for how long??!!?? I hadn't thought about that.
60 minutes? 90 minutes? I don't know what my threshold for prolonged PvP combat is. Probably around 60 minutes. I think. There is some limit for how long I will enjoy hardcore challenge.
Let's say it's going to take 3 days to destroy the processor. After 60 minutes of PvP combat, I'm likely to be done and ready to something that does not involve PvP combat. I will go harvest or craft or go exploring for several hours. I want to do something in the world that is more casual.
Even if I want to head to my house to craft in supposed safety, there is no fast travel.
I'm probably flagged as a combatant for 20 minutes - when I'm in no mood to fight.
Even if I'm not flagged, anyone could attack me - when I'm in no mood to fight.
If I refuse to fight or lose, I have to deal with XP debt, durability loss and probably a corpse run.
If I fight and win, I have to spend another 20 minutes flagged as a combatant - when I'm in no mood to fight.
The corruption mechanics do nothing to curtail that. In fact, it exacerbates that issue because I'm flagged as combatant and being attacked won't lead to corruption.
Also, I don't know why some people equate PvE folk with crafters as if PvE folk don't want like to fight.
Plenty of PvE folk are fine with fighting mobs - on there own terms.
How does a party of PvE-fighters mixed with PvP-fighters work??
I am a PvE Paladin so I agree to kill any mobs and refuse to participate in combat if we get attacked by player characters. Again, "Sorry, I could save you but, you're being attacked by player avatars. I'm not helping you!"
I have a feeling that's not going to go over very well.
It isn't realistic to ask a small Indie Developer to make 2 games (or even 1.5) and also to pay for extra servers with staff for them and all that before their first version is finished. No one is going to delay reaching the point of having returns flowing back into the company. They can clearly see that they have a large perfectly happy(with the direction of design as is) fan base begging to throw subscription money at them!
For one other thing, without PVP combat, there likely will not be enough content to keep PVE players happy. Players burn through scripted content like nothing else. It is pretty hard for Devs to keep up and much more expensive to try.
You all realize that just discussing this topic so much, we have likely spent more time than we ever will suffering non consensual PVP in AoC? lol That is ironic.
To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don’t want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not. [/quote]
On one server.
Primarily so that players who think they want to play on a server with PvP-combat shut off can experience for themselves how much they like what's left. While they are paying a sub for that, they can also check out the normal servers and see if they like that better.
If the PvE server works, why not let it run? If the population that stays is too low, sunset it.