Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/2/#post-20156" rel="nofollow">phocus26 wrote:</a></div>
To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don’t want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not.
</blockquote>
On one server.
Primarily so that players who think they want to play on a server with PvP-combat shut off can experience for themselves how much they like what’s left. While they are paying a sub for that, they can also check out the normal servers and see if they like that better.
If the PvE server works, why not let it run? If the population that stays is too low, sunset it.
[/quote]
Because the people that are making the game have already said it will not work. Stop trolling
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/2/#post-20156" rel="nofollow">phocus26 wrote:</a></div>
To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don’t want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not.
</blockquote>
On one server.
Primarily so that players who think they want to play on a server with PvP-combat shut off can experience for themselves how much they like what’s left. While they are paying a sub for that, they can also check out the normal servers and see if they like that better.
If the PvE server works, why not let it run? If the population that stays is too low, sunset it.
[/quote]
They don't want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.
[Snip]
[/quote]
The way I've thought about PvP in OWPvP games is that it's just another mechanic like any typical PvE mechanic. Just like in some games, mana bars are a thing you have to abide by (out of mana? no spells for you!), so why treat PvP differently? It's a consequence of player interaction, just like flooding the auction house with copper ore in WoW, or dance offs in Stormwind, or needing 4 other players to complete Hellfire Ramparts.
So why do you care so much about players limiting your experience in one way, but not others? Sure, some players get a kick out of making you do laps to your corpse, or killing all the quest givers and stuff, but sometimes it's actual competition for something. What if you're out there in your PvE hidey hole picking some rare flowers to make stuff, and I come along and think "Hey, I want those flowers". Is it tough shit for me because you were there first? Well, now you're preventing ME from doing something I want to do.
Basically what I'm trying to get at is it's all a matter of perspective, and the best system is one that can effectively deal with the most perspectives. At the core of this issue, we have players that don't want to be 'always in danger', and others that want to have that danger always there. Both sides have their merit, but ultimately I lean towards having the danger. It makes the game far more interesting when you have to compete for resources, or be clever about how you obtain them. To me, fighting a player for that rare flower patch is no different then killing that pack of minotaurs pathing around it.
It's simply an obstacle to get to something I want.
And that's why I love their concept of "Meaningful PvP" as much as you do. Even the PvP I don't want to have should have "meaning", even if it's simply a "consequence". Corruption seems like an excellent mechanic to dissuade meaningless killings while still allowing competition for PvE resources. Black Desert had an excellent working example in their Karma system. Too much killing of innocent players meant you were permanently flagged until you worked off your karma. Dying while at negative Karma would <em>devastate</em> you, causing you to lose potentially hundreds of hours of work from your gear getting degraded.
That, and I really look forward to the bounty system. I've always loved being an assassin.
They don’t want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.[/quote]
I know they don't want to split the playerbase, but they will do so anyway by pushing away tons of people who are actually eager to play the game.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/3/#post-20372" rel="nofollow">Kyrios_the_Hierophant wrote:</a></div>
They don’t want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.
</blockquote>
I know they don’t want to split the playerbase, but they will do so anyway by pushing away tons of people who are actually eager to play the game.
[/quote]
Pve only players won't play this game , it is no mystery that pvp is in the game. The people who are going to play are pvp'ers or pve players who are content with the purpose ruleset for pvp. I know a pvp player that drop support for the game because it was too restrictive for his likely, it is not just pve-only players that the game is not catering to.
The way I’ve thought about PvP in OWPvP games is that it’s just another mechanic like any typical PvE mechanic. Just like in some games, mana bars are a thing you have to abide by (out of mana? no spells for you!), so why treat PvP differently? It’s a consequence of player interaction, just like flooding the auction house with copper ore in WoW, or dance offs in Stormwind, or needing 4 other players to complete Hellfire Ramparts.[/quote]
That's an interesting question because, none of the other stuff you listed bothers me.
The one thing I hate is when I'm no longer in the mood for PvP combat and just want to be left alone to do some casual harvesting... and some asshat forces me into PvP combat...while I'm waiting for the timer on my PvP combat timer to run out.
Either I waste time engaged in a combat that I don't want and win...thereby restarting the cooldown on the PvP combat flag or I waste time fighting or fleeing and lose. Then I have to deal with a corpse run, xp debt and requiring stolen loot all because some other player wanted 5 minutes of fun.
So....no. It's not the consequence of player interaction. People can have all kinds of player itneractions that don't force people to do something they don;t want to do.
I don't worry about flooding of the auction house because I only trade with NPCs.
I'm pretty sure that another player can't force me into a dance off when I'm not in the mood.
I typically solo or duo. I'm generally not enticed to do quests that can't be completed alone.
I will help groups that ask me to join, but it's up to them to gather the group. I group in order to be social and helpful, not because I want to complete a quest that takes four people to complete. And I don't spend much time waiting for groups to form.
I am an Explorer, so I'm not going to be camping one spot, waiting for some uber mob nor am I going to stick around incessantly waiting for a raid to form.
[quote]So why do you care so much about players limiting your experience in one way, but not others? Sure, some players get a kick out of making you do laps to your corpse, or killing all the quest givers and stuff, but sometimes it’s actual competition for something. What if you’re out there in your PvE hidey hole picking some rare flowers to make stuff, and I come along and think “Hey, I want those flowers”. Is it tough shit for me because you were there first? Well, now you’re preventing ME from doing something I want to do.[/quote]
I've been playing MMORPGs for 20 years. Never once have I had the thought, "That player is limiting my experience."
The closest to that I've had is, "That asshat won't leave me the f* alone! I am not in the mood for PvP combat! Why can't he take no for an answer and find someone who wants to fight him."
I am non-competitive. So, the "sometimes it's competitive" doesn't help matters at all. In the instances I'm talking about it was just someone wanting to kill a player avatar because it was possible to kill a player avatar.
[quote]Basically what I’m trying to get at is it’s all a matter of perspective, and the best system is one that can effectively deal with the most perspectives. At the core of this issue, we have players that don’t want to be ‘always in danger’, and others that want to have that danger always there. Both sides have their merit, but ultimately I lean towards having the danger. It makes the game far more interesting when you have to compete for resources, or be clever about how you obtain them. To me, fighting a player for that rare flower patch is no different then killing that pack of minotaurs pathing around it. <ul>
It’s simply an obstacle to get to something I want.</ul>[/quote]
I apologize in advance. I'm not trying to be personal.
I know that PvPers tend to consider player avatars to be no different than NPCs.
And I find that view to be disgusting. To me, that's like a slavemaster thinking that his slaves are just property.
The difference is that the minotaur pack doesn't actually have any feelings. The players controlling avatars do have feelings.
When I'm tired of fighting other player avatars...because my hardcore threshold has been filled and I'm ready to go back to doing something casual. I expect that people will respect my feelings. rather than treat me like their property and force me to what they want me to do against my will. You know... no means no.
But PvPers tend not to care about the feelings of the players controlling the avatars.
And that is one of the major reasons that PvE sometimes folk leave the PvP servers and go play on PvE-only servers.
It really has nothing to do with not liking to fight or only wanting to craft. What really pisses people off and has them demanding separate servers is different perspectives regarding consent in regard to PvP combat.
So, yes, I know full well it's a matter of perspective.
The slave owner thinks it's OK to do whatever he wants to his slaves because he has the power to do so and the law is behind him and because the slaves are his property. He thinks that it is criminal for slaves to run away.
The slaves don't agree.
People who like the danger you crave should have that experience.
I have fun with PvP combat...sometimes. For about 60 minutes. After that I want to spend my time doing casual stuff in the world because I am a casual player whose bartle scores are Explorer 87% Killer 0%.
Once my player avatar killing threshold is filled for the day, that killer 0% truly is a hard 0% :
I am 0% interested in fighting with other avatars.
[quote]And that’s why I love their concept of “Meaningful PvP” as much as you do. Even the PvP I don’t want to have should have “meaning”, even if it’s simply a “consequence”. Corruption seems like an excellent mechanic to dissuade meaningless killings while still allowing competition for PvE resources. Black Desert had an excellent working example in their Karma system. Too much killing of innocent players meant you were permanently flagged until you worked off your karma. Dying while at negative Karma would <em>devastate</em> you, causing you to lose potentially hundreds of hours of work from your gear getting degraded.
That, and I really look forward to the bounty system. I’ve always loved being an assassin. [/quote]
Yes, what I love about PvP conflict is that it gives us reasons to quest besides just kill xx rats for yy rewards. And reasons to fight NPCs or player avatars, besides "I'm supposed to hate you because this is a race war server." Or because it provides xp or gear as rewards.
I'm killing dryads because that's going to fuel my stealth...which will allow me to explore more. Because first and foremost I'm an explorer. Instead of just killing player avatars to defend a town, Node v Node conflict means what players do in one node will indirectly affect the goals of players in another node and we will be pushed to resolve those conflicts which will have practical consequences throughout the world. It flips my switch from being passive to being aggressive. That is a brilliant design. And seems like it will be fun. I've invested more than $400 to the development of this concept between EQNext and AoC.
During EQNext development, I met a lot of cool guys who happen to be PvP combat afficionados. Even though i was saying hell no i would never play on a PvP server again, they convinced me that we shouldn't split the player base, we should find a way to do so.
And after a while, I realized, "Hey, I would love to be on the same server with these guys (who are my friends). How can we find a way to exist on the same server together?" After the devs dropped the reveal of the PvP conflict concept on us, I was so blown away that I was now eager to engage in PvP combat that we focused on that more than the solution for getting PvP haters, pvP sometimes and PvP always folk on the same server.
And it was moot for me because I envisioned myself having fun with PvP combat on the same server as my friends.
I forgot..or really never realized until last night... that my real issue with PvP combat is that I only like it for about 60 minutes, then I'm over it for that day. And, PvPers won't respect that.
From the PvPer perspective, if it's possible to kill you, it's OK to kill you. And, since i can only deal with that for about 60 minutes... a day, even though I play about 8 hours per day... that probably means I'm going to rage quit just as I typically do because none of the "griefing" deterrents in AoC address that problem. It especially has no solution for avatars that are flagged as combatant while they're not interested in PvP combat. Especially, not for an avatar with a role that is a combat class.
[Double Snip]
[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from, to a degree. However, you're not really considering the PvPer's perspective in all of this. You didn't really address the concept of competition for resources. In BDO, I was in a PvP guild and we'd often declare war on other guilds for farm spots. This was common practice, and even many smaller guilds would declare war in order to defend their farm spot (if you're unfamiliar, a guild war means both guilds are flagged against each other with no penalty until the war ends). This was a core concept of BDO and appears to be a core concept of AoC.
Because of the inherent resource limitation, there will be things that are in low availability that you may want to farm. Other players may want that, and may be willing to fight for it. That's the nature of the game. This is one way in which a player/guild can exert control over the game world. And you said it perfectly, if it's allowed in game it's considered fair. So, if I want the fancy flowers you're picking, I'm going to fight you for them.
The whole notion of stopping to consider the player's feelings in every instance is... Well, it's not feasible. Like, at all. It'd be like getting offended at another player dropping a full house in poker. How am I supposed to know in advance that this perfectly legal action of killing your avatar, or buying up all of the iron to create a monopoly, or killing your favorite shopkeeper NPC?
Also, I'm not even going to address the comparison of killing a player avatar to slavery as an even remotely valid analogy. That's asinine and you know it.
Anywho, my point is Intrepid has already stated that they will do what they can to quell griefers. From the looks of things, it'll be a damn big risk for someone to camp you over and over again. We don't have the exact specifics of the intended mechanics, but they seem dedicated to anti-griefing. However, just because <em>you</em> don't feel up to PvP doesn't mean I don't. That might mean I'm going after those pretty flowers. I (and pretty much everyone else in my boat) am not going to waste my time and ask every person whether or not they want to PvP. Just like I'm not going to ask every person that happens to be near a smoking area if they want me to put out my cigarette. The sign clearly says "Smoking Area/PvP", so it's on you.
If they are 10 minutes, that sounds like just enough time to log off and get a sandwich! <--lol I am assuming that flag cooldowns tick away when character is offline. Without ANY knowledge! ;)
They don’t want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.
Pve only players won’t play this game , it is no mystery that pvp is in the game. The people who are going to play are pvp’ers or pve players who are content with the purpose ruleset for pvp. I know a pvp player that drop support for the game because it was too restrictive for his likely, it is not just pve-only players that the game is not catering to. [/quote]
The reason I was advocating for a PvE-Only server is that it gives the PvE-only folk a chance to learn for themselves first-hand how broken the game will be if you all you do is turn the PvP combat off.
I am a PvP sometimes person. And I have been eager to play this game since 2013 when EQNext first revealed the pillars of this game design. I became even more eager to in 2014 when the EQNext provided detailed examples of PvP conflict or (what in AoC will be Node v Node conflict) because that conflict actually inspires me to be an aggressor, not just a defender, when it comes to PvP combat. I've been looking forward to exploring that exploring that for 4 years.
But, I realized a couple days ago that the reason I always get pushed from PvP servers to play on PvE servers...and finally just stopped trying to play on PvP servers is because I enjoy PvP combat for about 60 minutes per day out of an 8 hour play session.
And when I'm done with PvP combat - I'm done. I don't want to participate in PvP combat any more for that day.
The moments I get "ganked" are almost always when I'm waiting for the PvP flag to cooldown so I can turn it off.
So, I will probably be pushed off the "normal" servers, too. Even though I love everything else about the game, most of all the PvP conflict... what Steven calls "meaningful PvP". I am even eager for PvP combat...sometimes.
Steven keeps saying they're going to bring PvE players and PvP players together so that the PvE players support the PvP players and the PvP players can support the PvE players. Have everyone on the same serever in order to "not split the playerbase".
Which sounds great. But it sounds great because he;s not using terms in a truly meaningful way. Because he's not talking about how to bring together the MMORPG fans who only like to fight NPCs and mobs or the MMORPG fans who enjoy PvP combat sometimes and who love to kill mobs.
What Steven is talking about is making a game where Crafters can support PvPers and PvPers can support Crafters.
The game completely ignores those who enjoy love the concepts of Node v Node conflict but prefer to fight mobs rather than fight players characters, those who even enjoy fighting player characters...sometimes.
And at the same time there is the double-speak of "We don't want to split the playerbase."
Except you really do want to split the playerbase.
On the EQNext forums the PvPers who kept arguing that it's wrong to split the playerbase would also turn around and say, "Why play in PvP space if you don't want to PvP??!!??"
And my answer is that when I played games like EQ, EQ and WoW, my PvP friends would always say - "Come play with us on the PvP servers, we will protect you! It's going to be great!" But, it never ends up that way because I am an Explorer. I'm not sticking around for hours at a time to camp a mob. I'm not sticking around for hours at a time while we wait for a raid. I might run a dungeon with a group two or three times, but I'm not running a dungeon 4, 5 or 6 times.
So, I solo. A lot.
Even if I was in a group defending a town from attacks from player avatars, after about 60 minutes, I'm done with PvP combat and I'm ready to go exploring again or harvest for a while...in no mood for PvP combat. So, yeah I get pissed off when some PvPer pushes me into PvP combat when I'm not in the mood. Doesn't matter to me who wins. I'm pissed that a players is forcing me to do something I don't want to do right then.
I keep trying to avoid the R-word, but that really is the crux. It's about consent. No means no.
It's not that I don't PvP combat. It's not that PvPers are better at PvP combat than I am so I need other PvPers to protect me.
I don't care about PvPer friends exacting revenge or bounty hunters killing the person who killed...especially since it's not always me who gets killed. What pisses me off is players not taking no for an answer an forcing themselves on me when I am not in the mood to participate in PvP combat.
And that really is the main reason that PvE folk want to be on PvE servers. And that is why we say that PvPers are...jerks.
Has nothing to do with needing PvPers to fight for us. That is not the protection we need. It's just an excuse PvPers use to glorify themselves and try to solve the problem with more PvP combat.
Most of the AoC game design is from EQNext. Pretty much the successor of EQNext.
Black Desert Online isn't really on my radar. I watched LockSixTime play ArchAge when it first came out.
Lock was the person who convinced me that we should have everybody on the same server in EQNext - which I actually have been on board with right up until two days ago even though I've been advocating strongly for one PvE-only as an experiment so that everyone can see first hand how broken AoC would be with the ability for players to kill players disabled.
What I saw was an hour of the people on his ship getting wiped time after time after time after time as they tried to reach the shore by the players who had reached the shore before them. Didn't look like fun to me, so, I pretty much ignored that game.
Neither of them had the revolutionary game design I've been waiting for since I stopped playing MMORPGs in 2013 while waiting for the release of the first module for NWO. I realized that that generation of MMORPGs could no longer entice me. I needed some revolutionary new design for MMORPGs if I'm going to play them.
And then, two days, later came the reveal of EQNext and the 4 pillars of their game design. I realized that was exactly what I was craving without even knowing it. AoC is basically the successor of EQNext. Their vision of PvP conflict which I've been foaming at the bit to pursue for 4 years now is what Steven calls "meaningful PvP" it's really Node v Node conflict in AoC.
Even those people who say they won't play unless there is a PvE-Only server love that aspect of the game design.
The only part they don't like is being forced to participate in avatars killing avatars 24/7.
I'm an Explorer so I want one server to actually explore if it's true that the game will be so broken if the ability for avatars to kill avatars is shut off that PvE folk reach the conclusion that it's better for them to play on the normal servers. They will be paying a sub while they try that out..and that very well may be what it takes to get them to play on the normal servers.
Turns out I might need that damned PvE-only server for my own self. lmao
Steven's proposed deterrents do nothing at all to resolve the reasons I leave PvP servers to play on PvE servers.
I'm still going to "play on the normal servers". Now that I remember that my issue is with the limited amount of time per day I enjoy PvP combat, my expectation is that I won't be playing for long. But, the $400+ I've invested in the game design won't be wasted in any case because what I'm really investing in is the development of PvP conflict...the Node v Node conflict that is the core of AoC.
That is the future of MMORPGs regardless of whether PvE players can stand playing on the same server with PvP players.
Makes it more likely that a PvE game will harness implement that concept.
I was planning to play a Rogue/Bard, but now I'm thinking I'll need to play a Rogue/Ranger so that I can maximize stealth.
Dunno. But, we will see.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/3/#post-20418" rel="nofollow">Kyrios_the_Hierophant wrote:</a></div>
They don’t want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.
Pve only players won’t play this game , it is no mystery that pvp is in the game. The people who are going to play are pvp’ers or pve players who are content with the purpose ruleset for pvp. I know a pvp player that drop support for the game because it was too restrictive for his likely, it is not just pve-only players that the game is not catering to.
</blockquote>
The reason I was advocating for a PvE-Only server is that it gives the PvE-only folk a chance to learn for themselves first-hand how broken the game will be if you all you do is turn the PvP combat off.
I am a PvP sometimes person. And I have been eager to play this game since 2013 when EQNext first revealed the pillars of this game design. I became even more eager to in 2014 when the EQNext provided detailed examples of PvP conflict or (what in AoC will be Node v Node conflict) because that conflict actually inspires me to be an aggressor, not just a defender, when it comes to PvP combat. I’ve been looking forward to exploring that exploring that for 4 years.
But, I realized a couple days ago that the reason I always get pushed from PvP servers to play on PvE servers…and finally just stopped trying to play on PvP servers is because I enjoy PvP combat for about 60 minutes per day out of an 8 hour play session.
And when I’m done with PvP combat – I’m done. I don’t want to participate in PvP combat any more for that day.
The moments I get “ganked” are almost always when I’m waiting for the PvP flag to cooldown so I can turn it off.
So, I will probably be pushed off the “normal” servers, too. Even though I love everything else about the game, most of all the PvP conflict… what Steven calls “meaningful PvP”. I am even eager for PvP combat…sometimes.
Steven keeps saying they’re going to bring PvE players and PvP players together so that the PvE players support the PvP players and the PvP players can support the PvE players. Have everyone on the same serever in order to “not split the playerbase”.
Which sounds great. But it sounds great because he;s not using terms in a truly meaningful way. Because he’s not talking about how to bring together the MMORPG fans who only like to fight NPCs and mobs or the MMORPG fans who enjoy PvP combat sometimes and who love to kill mobs.
What Steven is talking about is making a game where Crafters can support PvPers and PvPers can support Crafters.
The game completely ignores those who enjoy love the concepts of Node v Node conflict but prefer to fight mobs rather than fight players characters, those who even enjoy fighting player characters…sometimes.
And at the same time there is the double-speak of “We don’t want to split the playerbase.”
Except you really do want to split the playerbase.
On the EQNext forums the PvPers who kept arguing that it’s wrong to split the playerbase would also turn around and say, “Why play in PvP space if you don’t want to PvP??!!??”
And my answer is that when I played games like EQ, EQ and WoW, my PvP friends would always say – “Come play with us on the PvP servers, we will protect you! It’s going to be great!” But, it never ends up that way because I am an Explorer. I’m not sticking around for hours at a time to camp a mob. I’m not sticking around for hours at a time while we wait for a raid. I might run a dungeon with a group two or three times, but I’m not running a dungeon 4, 5 or 6 times.
So, I solo. A lot.
Even if I was in a group defending a town from attacks from player avatars, after about 60 minutes, I’m done with PvP combat and I’m ready to go exploring again or harvest for a while…in no mood for PvP combat. So, yeah I get pissed off when some PvPer pushes me into PvP combat when I’m not in the mood. Doesn’t matter to me who wins. I’m pissed that a players is forcing me to do something I don’t want to do right then.
I keep trying to avoid the R-word, but that really is the crux. It’s about consent. No means no.
It’s not that I don’t PvP combat. It’s not that PvPers are better at PvP combat than I am so I need other PvPers to protect me.
I don’t care about PvPer friends exacting revenge or bounty hunters killing the person who killed…especially since it’s not always me who gets killed. What pisses me off is players not taking no for an answer an forcing themselves on me when I am not in the mood to participate in PvP combat.
And that really is the main reason that PvE folk want to be on PvE servers. And that is why we say that PvPers are…jerks.
Has nothing to do with needing PvPers to fight for us. That is not the protection we need. It’s just an excuse PvPers use to glorify themselves and try to solve the problem with more PvP combat.
Most of the AoC game design is from EQNext. Pretty much the successor of EQNext.
Black Desert Online isn’t really on my radar. I watched LockSixTime play ArchAge when it first came out.
Lock was the person who convinced me that we should have everybody on the same server in EQNext – which I actually have been on board with right up until two days ago even though I’ve been advocating strongly for one PvE-only as an experiment so that everyone can see first hand how broken AoC would be with the ability for players to kill players disabled.
What I saw was an hour of the people on his ship getting wiped time after time after time after time as they tried to reach the shore by the players who had reached the shore before them. Didn’t look like fun to me, so, I pretty much ignored that game.
Neither of them had the revolutionary game design I’ve been waiting for since I stopped playing MMORPGs in 2013 while waiting for the release of the first module for NWO. I realized that that generation of MMORPGs could no longer entice me. I needed some revolutionary new design for MMORPGs if I’m going to play them.
And then, two days, later came the reveal of EQNext and the 4 pillars of their game design. I realized that was exactly what I was craving without even knowing it. AoC is basically the successor of EQNext. Their vision of PvP conflict which I’ve been foaming at the bit to pursue for 4 years now is what Steven calls “meaningful PvP” it’s really Node v Node conflict in AoC.
Even those people who say they won’t play unless there is a PvE-Only server love that aspect of the game design.
The only part they don’t like is being forced to participate in avatars killing avatars 24/7.
I’m an Explorer so I want one server to actually explore if it’s true that the game will be so broken if the ability for avatars to kill avatars is shut off that PvE folk reach the conclusion that it’s better for them to play on the normal servers. They will be paying a sub while they try that out..and that very well may be what it takes to get them to play on the normal servers.
Turns out I might need that damned PvE-only server for my own self. lmao
Steven’s proposed deterrents do nothing at all to resolve the reasons I leave PvP servers to play on PvE servers.
I’m still going to “play on the normal servers”. Now that I remember that my issue is with the limited amount of time per day I enjoy PvP combat, my expectation is that I won’t be playing for long. But, the $400+ I’ve invested in the game design won’t be wasted in any case because what I’m really investing in is the development of PvP conflict…the Node v Node conflict that is the core of AoC.
That is the future of MMORPGs regardless of whether PvE players can stand playing on the same server with PvP players.
Makes it more likely that a PvE game will harness implement that concept.
I was planning to play a Rogue/Bard, but now I’m thinking I’ll need to play a Rogue/Ranger so that I can maximize stealth.
Dunno. But, we will see.
[/quote]
PvE server only, would require a completely different version of the game will vastly different mechanics. So many things in Ashes will be effected in AoC passively, directly and indirectly by PvP, to remove it in small amounts would break some systems, new ones would need to be developed with PvE aspects JUST for the PVE Only servers. PvE only servers also divides the community, the whole point of ashes of creation is to produce a world with consequences, with community interaction between all types of players.
Splitting the community in such a huge way would undermine one of the main focus points of the game.
Also I've been in alot of Top tier guilds, and i always find the notion almost silly that people have to declare themselves as a "PvEr" or "PvPr" and tbh most people engage in both elements most of the time. PvP is not just killing players, PvP is any element of the game where you compete with another player at all. This can be trading, gathering, trying to outbid someone... Its alot of things.
EVE online has one of the best mind sets, even "PvE Only" players understand as soon as they undock from the station, death can happen at anytime, event in the safest regions of space (highsec). Though just because it CAN happen doesnt always mean it will. Ashes of Creation just needs to establish a mindset for its playerbase, one that is accepted by all players, by doing this it will provide an enjoyable atmosphere for the majority if its playerbase, but both PvE and PvP are important aspects of this game in general, they are infact somewhat intertwined. Thats one thing that wont likely change with the games development, they want both PvE and PvP communities to interact, and embrace a more PvX kind of attitude.
Thanks,
Lex</blockquote>
I always eat spaghetti with no tomatoes or sauce and love it.
Not all the crafters. I love the Idea of having OWPVP and I am a crafter. I like too the corruption system as well and feel as long as it is balanced properly there should be no issue for me. I will have a few friends with while I am gathering. Now if I can get PKed in my own house that might be an issue. I think its people who dont want anything to do with PVP period and they feel that they should be catered to no matter if it will chance what this game is. They just need to either play the game and see or go play another game that is designed for them.
</blockquote>
To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don’t want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not.
Just for you Dygz ????
<a href="http://wizard.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/carebare.png" rel="nofollow">http://wizard.gamebanana.com/img/ico/sprays/carebare.png</a>
-Prisom
[/quote]
PvE server only, would require a completely different version of the game will vastly different mechanics. So many things in Ashes will be effected in AoC passively, directly and indirectly by PvP, to remove it in small amounts would break some systems, new ones would need to be developed with PvE aspects JUST for the PVE Only servers. PvE only servers also divides the community, the whole point of ashes of creation is to produce a world with consequences, with community interaction between all types of players.[/quote]
Completely different is clearly hyperbole. Disabling the ability for player avatars to kill other player avatars might break some systems, but it shouldn't be too different from disabling the corruption mechanic during PvP events. If it truly breaks systems to the degree that the game is not fun to play, then the PvE-only folk would learn first-hand -while paying a sub- that it's not fun to play. and they will either move over to the normal servers or quit the game. But they will quit with a clear understanding of why the game must include player avatars killing player avatars.
What new systems would need to be developed to replace player avatars killing player avatars? Please provide a couple of examples?
The community will already be split if PvE-Only aren't playing. And if those who only like PvP combat sometimes aren't playing.
Consequences can still occur without the consequence of player avatars killing player avatars.
Ashes of Creation wants interaction between Crafters and PvP combat-always enthusiasts. That's it. And that leaves out a huge chunk of the MMORPG community.
[quote]Splitting the community in such a huge way would undermine one of the main focus points of the game.[/quote]
Again I don;'t understand what that means because it's going to be split anyway. Instead of playing on a separate server, they won't be playing at all.
[quote]Also I’ve been in alot of Top tier guilds, and i always find the notion almost silly that people have to declare themselves as a “PvEr” or “PvPr” and tbh most people engage in both elements most of the time. PvP is not just killing players, PvP is any element of the game where you compete with another player at all. This can be trading, gathering, trying to outbid someone… Its alot of things.[/quote]
That's right. PvP is not just player avatars killing other player avatars. Which is why it's important to be more precise with terms than just saying PvP. PvP that does not involve player avatars killing other player avatars is PvP conflict. Everyone interested in playing Ashes of Creation love the concept of PvP conflict. What the PvE-Only and the PvP somtimes folk want is to be able to play without having to worry about other players forcing them into direct PvP combat when they aren't in the mood. And the only way to do that is to have areas where the ability for player avatars to attack player avatars is shut off.
Trading, gathering, trying to outbid someone is PvP conflict. PvE-only folk are fine with that. What they don't want to deal with is specifically being forced into PvP combat - player avatars killing player avatars- when a player is not in the mood for PvP combat.
[quote]EVE online has one of the best mind sets, even “PvE Only” players understand as soon as they undock from the station, death can happen at anytime, event in the safest regions of space (highsec). Though just because it CAN happen doesnt always mean it will. Ashes of Creation just needs to establish a mindset for its playerbase, one that is accepted by all players, by doing this it will provide an enjoyable atmosphere for the majority if its playerbase, but both PvE and PvP are important aspects of this game in general, they are infact somewhat intertwined. Thats one thing that wont likely change with the games development, they want both PvE and PvP communities to interact, and embrace a more PvX kind of attitude.[/quote]
Right because PvE-only players won't play EVE. And most PvP-sometimes players won't play EVE, either.
Ashes of Creation can't really establish a mindset that all players can accept. It will just exclude the players who only enjoy PvP combat sometimes. It's not really creating a world where everyone accepts PvP combat. It's just catering only to the people who play on PvP servers while excluding those who play on PvE-Only servers.
That's not difficult to accomplish. That's just the easiest way to split the community.
What Steven wants is for both Crafters and and people who love PvP combat to be symbiotic. He wants the Crafters to support the PvPers and the PvPers to support the Crafters.
He's not doing anything about those players who enjoying blowing up buildings and fighting mobs - but don't enjoy fighting other players 24/7. And that is a huge portion of the community.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/3/#post-20372" rel="nofollow">Kyrios_the_Hierophant wrote:</a></div>
They don’t want to split the player base , your crusade for a pve-only sever is a dead end. A lot of people supporting the game are people who played Black Desert and Archeage, this is target audience they are aiming the game at.
</blockquote>
I know they don’t want to split the playerbase, but they will do so anyway by pushing away tons of people who are actually eager to play the game.
[/quote]
No its called making a game for a certain market. Just like they are not cloning WOW to get the WOW market into Ashes. Again you do not understand the game because if you did you would know the demographic they are aiming for and it is not the PVE only crowd.
1. I’m not an easy kill. A lot of PKers suck at it, really that’s not meant to point the finger at PVP only players but at least in AA anyway a lot of them were horrible. The good ones are going to kill you anyway but the mediocre to bad ones? It’s not like they pop up and you lower your head and wait for the sword to drop, you can beat these people.
2. There appears to be powerful mechanism in this game model to combat gankers/Pker’s. If you are part of a guild or a crafter right off the bat you have 2 ways to retaliate beyond item 1 above. You can elicit your guild to hunt this person down and take your revenge. Second you can black ball them in the market. Now I am not 100% certain on this particular mechanic but dependent on what the gear market is like you may be able to exclude players from buying your or your guilds wares.
Imagine a moment there is an infamous PK guild (we had em in AA) and you belonged to a 500+ strong trading guild that had ties to several other guilds in game. Suppose further you could coordinate an embargo on that PK guild.
Now I don’t know that this is going to be in game, but I suspect there will be counters to everything, as there should be. I’m hoping for something more robust than say AA but not completely prohibitive, rogue play is a long standing game play and I’d hate to see it stymied at the behest of another style.
Oh item 3: After reading all the PVP threads and pages over the last two days I’m switching from crafter/healer to a rogue and I’m killing you all for subjecting me to this foolishness. <strong>Everyone is going to die in AoC, including me, be prepared. </strong><ul>
I still don't understand what the word 'bad' is intended to refer to.
You have to take the good with the bad. What is the bad?
If bad is PvP combat. I enjoy PvP combat.
For your analogy, I like tomatoes. I don't want tomatoes in everything I eat. I don't like tomatoes for breakfast. I generally eat tomatoes for lunch. I generally don't eat tomatoes for dinner. Most importantly, I want to be able to choose when I eat tomatoes and when I don't. I don't want my younger brother to be able to force me to eat tomatoes whenever he wants me to eat tomatoes.
And if I want to pick the tomatoes out of my meal on any given day, I want to be able to do that.
If we're talking about monotony - that is precisely my point. I enjoy PvP combat...for about 60 minutes. After that I want to do just about anything else in the game besides PvP combat. But, PvPers want to force other people to combat them whenever.
So, again, what is the bad that people need to accept? That my little brother can force me to eat tomatoes even when I'm tired of eating tomatoes? Does that actually seem like something people generally accept?
I still don't understand what the word 'bad' is intended to refer to.
You have to take the good with the bad. What is the bad supposed to be?
If bad is PvP combat. I enjoy PvP combat.
For your analogy, I like tomatoes. I don't want tomatoes in everything I eat. I don't like tomatoes for breakfast. I generally eat tomatoes for lunch. I generally don't eat tomatoes for dinner. Most importantly, I want to be able to choose when I eat tomatoes and when I don't. I don't want my younger brother to be able to force me to eat tomatoes whenever he wants me to eat tomatoes.
And if I want to pick the tomatoes out of my meal on any given day, I want to be able to do that.
If we're talking about monotony - that is precisely my point. I enjoy PvP combat...for about 60 minutes. After that I want to do just about anything else in the game besides PvP combat. But, PvPers want to force other people to combat them whenever.
So, again, what is the bad that people need to accept? That my little brother can force me to eat tomatoes even when I'm tired of eating tomatoes? Does that actually seem like something people generally accept?
I do understand the game. Steven states that he's creating a game where PvE players and PvP players will work together.
But, that's not what he's actually creating. he's creating a game where Crafters and PVPers will work together.
So... it would be nice if he would say what he actually means. Precisely.
Which is fine. I will push him to do so.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/#post-18638" rel="nofollow">Rune_Relic wrote:</a></div>
Wait wat ?!?!
Something got lost in translation I think
<img alt="" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f600.svg" />
</blockquote>
PVP adds “differences in kind” situations. Instead of picking berries completely safe until the basket is full, you always feel that “something unexpected’ could happen. When it does, it is a completely different situation…
[/quote]
They intend to do this with the world reacting to you and your actions.
PVP ganking is not needed, however to support open world pvp WHICH CAN BE FUN (I say this as a pver) I'd suggest it be structure around diplomatic rivalries between nodes, dueling challenges and open pvp areas like uncharted oceans, unsafe ghettos, uncivilized underground areas and other badlands.
This way people have choices, the carrot on the stick to go to these places can be rare cosmetic items or materials.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/2/#post-20156" rel="nofollow">phocus26 wrote:</a></div>
To quote Helzbelz above, I think this is generally about what it comes down to. People who don’t want direct PVP are kind of asking for the game to be made into something its not.
</blockquote>
On one server.
Primarily so that players who think they want to play on a server with PvP-combat shut off can experience for themselves how much they like what’s left. While they are paying a sub for that, they can also check out the normal servers and see if they like that better.
If the PvE server works, why not let it run? If the population that stays is too low, sunset it.
</blockquote>
Honestly, Steven wasn't even willing to concede to RP servers so I definitely think that PVE vs PVP servers are going to be shot down unless its organized by the community (which is totally possible and I expect to occur to some degree) but it will function mechanically the same. If WoW tells you anything about how players behave though, just look at Tichondrius. That server received custom coding and scripting to handle its MASSIVE population that was over 10X other servers just because it was the place to be if you wanted to arena. Good PVPers want to play with other good PVPers. Sure, its fun to gank some noobs once in a while, but when you can't find an arena partner above 2k, that shit sucks and is in no way worth dealing with just to be able to gloat over some hallow victories in OWPVP.
It should be noted that we don't know how the loot penalties are going to work as they pertain to player deaths. As was mentioned in the most recent live stream, they are modeling their game's economy after EVE Online and in EVE, taking anything valuable with you outside of "sercure space" means that you're liable to be PK'd and looted. So you either: Don't take anything valuable outside of your town's ZOI or; don't go alone while traveling. If the death penalty offers just a couple copper (assuming you're not hauling a load of diamonds) and it takes a minute or two to kill someone, no one will waste their time grinding you down for pennies. It will happen once in a while because... its the internet, but that will be the exception, not the rule. We really have to at least see how this plays out in an alpha before we can lobby for change.
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom
asdf
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asSomewhat @ Dygz but still a good read in general...
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom
-Prisom
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/caution-requires-thinking-dragonslayers-why-you-need-pvp-in-this-game/page/3/#post-20719" rel="nofollow">Vladamyr wrote:</a></div>
The OP is not saying its bad to dislike PvP. It’s not bad to dislike tomatoes. Tons of people hate tomatoes. Spaghetti without tomatoes is strictly worse. Has nothing to do with right or wrong, like or dislike. It needs the tomatoes just like good games need the monotony broken and in this case, PvP.
</blockquote>
I still don’t understand what the word ‘bad’ is intended to refer to.
You have to take the good with the bad. What is the bad supposed to be?
If bad is PvP combat. I enjoy PvP combat.
For your analogy, I like tomatoes. I don’t want tomatoes in everything I eat. I don’t like tomatoes for breakfast. I generally eat tomatoes for lunch. I generally don’t eat tomatoes for dinner. Most importantly, I want to be able to choose when I eat tomatoes and when I don’t. I don’t want my younger brother to be able to force me to eat tomatoes whenever he wants me to eat tomatoes.
And if I want to pick the tomatoes out of my meal on any given day, I want to be able to do that.
If we’re talking about monotony – that is precisely my point. I enjoy PvP combat…for about 60 minutes. After that I want to do just about anything else in the game besides PvP combat. But, PvPers want to force other people to combat them whenever.
So, again, what is the bad that people need to accept? That my little brother can force me to eat tomatoes even when I’m tired of eating tomatoes? Does that actually seem like something people generally accept?
</blockquote>
Somewhat @ Dygz but still a good read...
Considering that Steven wouldn't even label specific RP servers, there DEFINITELY wont be mechanically diverse PVP and PVE servers. I imagine there will be community organized Elite PVP servers and Progression oriented PVE servers.
We can't petition for change until we have at least an alpha version to go off of. Even if the game was released as is we have no idea how the player death mechanics will play out. If you getting killed results in a few pennies (assuming you aren't hauling a load of diamonds), it wont be worth the 2-3 minutes to grind you down and people will just naturally avoid PVP without some specific objective. Steven has already referenced EVE Online by name in the most recent live stream and if they are following their model then it will be exceedingly unwise to carry anything of value with you outside of "safe space" (where ever that ends up being). Again, if players who aren't with a caravan or other objective don't offer anything particularly valuable, then player behavior will reflect that.
We can also learn from WoW, in terms of player behavior, that PVPers want to play with other PVPers. In WOD Tichondrius had to receive custom coding and server software to handle the 100,000+ player base because, if you want to arena, that was the place to do it. Its fun winning a few OWPVP fights by a landslide but when you can't find an arena partner over 2k, that shit sucks.
I am not against PVP and PVE servers, PVP having a larger portion of its zones flaged for PVP, but that might not be the world they are trying to create. I don't know if you've ever played EVE Online, but if you have then you'll know what I am talking about. When you go out into zero sec space (which is basically unpoliced-anything-goes-with-no-consiquences-whatsoever) its terrifying. You're constantly scanning and looking for other ships. If you even see someone within 100,000 m of you, you immediately align to a nearby planet and engage your hyper drive. That experience, of the world inherently being a frightening place to go alone, might be what they are after. They've also mentioned that the world will be a VERY large place with limited travel options. Maybe that's how it will be. When you're out picking carrots and you see someone off in the distance, you saddle up and ride because you don't know what their intentions are and you don't want to find out...
There is also the bounty system in place to consider. If you're doing solo PVE style work chopping trees or slaying evil bunnies in the woods outside of town, who is really going to put themselves on a bounty list just to get a few copper and waste a few minutes of your time? Being corrupt can cause you to not just drop raw materials, but ANY piece of gear equipped.
I really do believe you're going to be able to do what you want to do in the way you want to do it given the systems they've described but we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out.
-Prisom