It's about sexualization. It has nothing to do with finctionality. Otherwise everyone would be saying "Oh no, don't include any metal battle armor, it can't withstand my lightning spells." Metal conducting electricity, the wearer would be fried after 1 zap.. less chance of surviving that than if a bikini wearer were struck somewhere with either an axe or lightning.
Hell, even water magic, I'll drown you in your heavy sinking armor.. Bikini wearers just swim outta that shit
Bikini > Battle armor. The facts still stand.
Actually not, being the bikini still metal. Plus if your female character wore a leather bikini or some sort of skimpy leather /cloth armour, then you couldn't disregard the lighting part either, but neither the fire or water one. Are you supposed to be agile enough to evade lighting? Or is your skin magically impervious to elements? If your bikini magic prevents your sking from getting damage, then why wouldn't a full plate be able to be imbued with similar magic?
You would not drown by me filling your full plate with water but I could simply assail your character with a massive wave. Why that could be impossible for a mage?
Either case the lighting and fire thing "is" supposed to happen, otherwise a tank would be nearly invincible
The functionality that's being told about here is about melee combat. With magic, either you have buffs, either you're screwed and that it is how it should be, otherwise mages would be useless.
Lol what? How many girls do you know that go to the beach in a metal bikini? Even if it is a metal bikini, that's like 90% less conductivity, (or do you not know what a lightning rod is lol?) Compared to a full body metal armour suit, so I'll disregard your entire first paragraph.
I never mentioned anything about filling the suit of armor with water lol wtf.. If a mage makes a big pool of water on an enemy, your character is going to struggle to swim out of it with a full suit of amor. - You and me will test this. We'll go to the swimming pool and I'll wear a bikini and you wear full metal, we'll dive in at the same time and see who gets to the other side the quickest.. My prediction, you won't. - Do you understand now?
It was a comment on "functionality" nowhere did he limit it to melee combat. And even if he did, by that logic, you're saying to remove all cloth and light armor because it's functionality isn't as good as full plate.
So why not have all armors and clothes agnostic of gender/race? The devs can then offer the whole gamut of clothes/armors ranging from the skimpiest of dresses to the most bad assery of armors. If a dude wants to wear a thong, great, and if a chick wants to dress in full plate adorned with skulls, great. It shouldn't make a difference, as we are all really just playing mmo dress up.
@Azathoth I had no intention to offend with my mention of identifying as a different race/gender etc. in order to qualify for government programs. I was being sarcastic. I am actually Native American (in reality), and I don't find it offensive in the least if someone makes mention of minorities receiving govt. assistance. There's nothing wrong with receiving government assistance, and I made no statement to indicate that there was.
Point I was making was, if I can choose to become whatever gender I want to be, and I can demand that everyone recognizes it as reality, then I can do the same with my race, gender, and any other situation I deem necessary in order to benefit myself. I know how ridiculous it sounds that a person could be so removed from reality that they choose to be a different race, but how is it any different than believing you are a different gender than the gender you were born.
When I mentioned SJW's, I thought I made it pretty clear the ones I was referring to. I totally believe in equality, but not at the expense of everyones' or anyones' rights. The SJW's I was referring to are the ones that would take away freedom and rights in the name of equality. Like the large group marching for equality, but chanting for police to be killed. Or the transgender man that threatened to cause Ben Shapiro to have to be taken home in an ambulance because Shapiro called him "Sir." Threatening violence because someone will not adopt your view of your gender identity is not only unacceptable, it is against the law.
So why not have all armors and clothes agnostic of gender/race? The devs and can then offer the whole gamut of clothes/armors ranging from the skimpiest of dresses to the most bad assery of armors. If a dude wants to wear a thong, great, and if a chick wants to dress in full plate adorned with skulls, great. It shouldn't make a difference, as we are all really just playing mmo dress up.
Yeah that's exactly it, hence the thread of even a female complaining about females trying to have sexualization of armor removed.
So why not have all armors and clothes agnostic of gender/race? The devs and can then offer the whole gamut of clothes/armors ranging from the skimpiest of dresses to the most bad assery of armors. If a dude wants to wear a thong, great, and if a chick wants to dress in full plate adorned with skulls, great. It shouldn't make a difference, as we are all really just playing mmo dress up.
Agnostic isn't quite the right word I think, but that is probably nitpicky semantics...
If you mean have all armors wearable by any gender or race... I'm all for it. In WoW, I typically have my Trolls and Forsaken dress in Tauren outfits and have Tauren dress in Troll or Forsaken outfits.
Tolkien fantasy has been a bit too focused on Western visions of costumes - specifically too focused on medieval European costumes and armor. Many other cultures we can draw from where people, even today, are not relying on metal for armor or leather for armor - some that are not even relying on cloth for armor. There are cultures where both the males and females wear skirts. There are cultures where both males and females wear thongs. There are cultures in real life where warriors rely solely on warpaint as magical protection.
I hope we see options that run the gamut - where plate and chain and leather and cloth armor fully covers the body - and where plate and chain and leather and cloth scantily covers the body. For both males and females. I hope some of that is racial/cultural. I hope some of that ends up being regional/seasonal. Especially where the game design already has some climate affecting elemental spells.
Wasn't so long ago that it was slutty for women in Western society to show their ankles or show the backs of their necks in public. But, that's all cultural judgment. Ashes has a wide variety of cultures - the Niküaappear to be Polynesian.
In a world of high magic, bikini armor, jewelry armor, war-paint armor, tattoo armor - should all be as viable as plate armor. All depends on the enchantments.
I hope we can get some armor similar to the ones below - in addition to plate mail, chain mail and robes.
What armor? thats clothing.
Maybe that's the misconception we should fight here? the nonsense of "light" and "medium" armor
Simple put, Clothing and Leather is not Armor. There isn't even historical proof of something like leather armor. Leather was used to hold the actual armor together but offers no real protective value. For Armor made out of clothing.... well that actually exists in the form of the gambeson or aketon. But not that above
Now if we go for game mechanics things are a bit different. But i for once would love if "Armor" that's simply clothing and leather doesn't offer any protection(but still has other stats). Real light armor would be only a breastplate, hauberk, brigantine or similar added to the clothing. Medium adding to that also leg and hand protection, and Heavy is the full suit.
And looking at the Predator. Most of his stuff is just Leather and clothing. Should add no Protection. But it seems he has kind of a breastplate. Now it depends of the material. If its metal i could say thats a Light Armor set, which is fitting for a roguish character. If it's only leather it shouldn't be considered Armor, but simply clothing. Would still fit the roguish character. And before those people come arguing "but its magic!". If magic provides all the time such good protection, why bother wearing heavy armor in the first place? There needs to be some logic in the world creation or it will just feel porley created.
Dwarve: Oh yes we dwarves have mastered every craftsmanship and will tailor the finest armor for you! Half naked Elf runs into the battle with its huge twohander Elf: Armor? my Bikini of partial nudity grants me a bigger armor bonus then any heavy armor.... because Magic!
@Enrif Ashes is not historical fiction. Ashes is high fantasy. The images I posted are armor sets. They aren't simply clothing.
It may very well be that the protection of a Niküa grass armor set is greater than that of a Dünir metal/plate armor set. All depends on the power of the specific enchantments.
@Dygz I was using agnostic loosely in relation to not believing in the belief system that all female characters can only have skimpy clothes, and all males characters must have full armor etc. I'm sure everyone knows the real definition of the word, but I felt it was still a good word to imply the gist of what I was trying to say.
In high fantasy, there is magic. Even in real life, armor runs the gamut from full plate mail to warpaint only. The different types exist because of culture and climate and regional resources.
But, in a high fantasy setting, magic is real. Whether a wedding dress offers more protection than a set of armor will depend on the strength of the specific enchantments on the specific dress and set of armor.
@Dygz I was using agnostic loosely in relation to the belief system that all female characters can only have skimpy clothes, and all males characters must have full armor etc. I'm sure everyone knows the real definition of the word, but I felt it was still a good word to imply the gist of what I was trying to say.
In high fantasy, there is magic. Even in real life, armor runs the gamut from full plate mail to warpaint only. The different types exist because of culture and climate and regional resources.
But, in a high fantasy setting, magic is real. Whether a wedding dress offers more protection than a set of armor will depend on the strength of the specific enchantments on the specific dress and set of armor.
So by that logic it would have been okay for let say the Lord of the Rings movies at the battle of helm deep that all those elven soldier would have worn the equivalent of tissue paper? Because thanks to magic it's tougher then steel? It's not like they don't have something that make more sense in that high fantasy universe...like....oh i don't know, the mithrill hauberk frodo gots? which is light, is actual armor and makes sense in the context of the universe. Instead of the cheap way, because magic.
In high fantasy, there is magic. Even in real life, armor runs the gamut from full plate mail to warpaint only. The different types exist because of culture and climate and regional resources.
But, in a high fantasy setting, magic is real. Whether a wedding dress offers more protection than a set of armor will depend on the strength of the specific enchantments on the specific dress and set of armor.
I agree. if the game was reality based then we could reasonably expect the armor to be realistic. But high fantasy, incorporating magic, changes everything.
Boy this thread turned toxic quick. I hope @Steven reads all this he may have to make some serious discussions regarding armor sets and all the expectations of the playing group. It would be good if they did say something about this subject.
i hope they ignore this completely and do their own thing honestly. this thread has gone nowhere. and done almost nothing. with the same thing being repeated every other page. regardless of this thread they will do as they please. they will do what their lore allows. regardless of arguments
I understand both sides. To me the solution is simple. Get the best ideas from both sides and trash the rest. At least then you have a starting point. Never ignore peoples comments regardless of your own view points.
I understand both sides. To me the solution is simple. Get the best ideas from both sides and trash the rest. At least then you have a starting point. Never ignore peoples comments regardless of your own view points.
i feel the devs could have done all that without this toxic post. and im right there with ya
i hope they ignore this completely and do their own thing honestly. this thread has gone nowhere. and done almost nothing. with the same thing being repeated every other page. regardless of this thread they will do as they please. they will do what their lore allows. regardless of arguments
we can only wait and see
Agreed. I believe the Devs will make reasonable decisions regarding clothing and armor. The focus should be on the lore. They simply can't focus on catering to every whim of every player.
Agreed. I believe the Devs will make reasonable decisions regarding clothing and armor. The focus should be on the lore. They simply can't focus on catering to every whim of every player.
I agree catering for every whim of every player would be a nightmare and the game would never be finished. You mentioned Lore, but I'll go one step further there are lots of things we still dont really know about. I am hopeful we can get this information in the next 3 months.
In high fantasy, there is magic. Even in real life, armor runs the gamut from full plate mail to warpaint only. The different types exist because of culture and climate and regional resources.
But, in a high fantasy setting, magic is real. Whether a wedding dress offers more protection than a set of armor will depend on the strength of the specific enchantments on the specific dress and set of armor.
So by that logic it would have been okay for let say the Lord of the Rings movies at the battle of helm deep that all those elven soldier would have worn the equivalent of tissue paper? Because thanks to magic it's tougher then steel? It's not like they don't have something that make more sense in that high fantasy universe...like....oh i don't know, the mithrill hauberk frodo gots? which is light, is actual armor and makes sense in the context of the universe. Instead of the cheap way, because magic.
The equivalent of leaves and warpaint, sure. Because magic. Tolkien was way too European-centric. To put it nicely.
Lol what? How many girls do you know that go to the beach in a metal bikini? Even if it is a metal bikini, that's like 90% less conductivity, (or do you not know what a lightning rod is lol?) Compared to a full body metal armour suit, so I'll disregard your entire first paragraph.
I never mentioned anything about filling the suit of armor with water lol wtf.. If a mage makes a big pool of water on an enemy, your character is going to struggle to swim out of it with a full suit of amor. - You and me will test this. We'll go to the swimming pool and I'll wear a bikini and you wear full metal, we'll dive in at the same time and see who gets to the other side the quickest.. My prediction, you won't. - Do you understand now?
It was a comment on "functionality" nowhere did he limit it to melee combat. And even if he did, by that logic, you're saying to remove all cloth and light armor because it's functionality isn't as good as full plate.
Just stop lol
Yes. You're very smart. I bow to your wisdom.
Now that's settled, on to the answers: 1. wether you wear a bikini or an armour your own body is conductive, so it's pretty pointless. You die in both cases.
2. why would I be so stupid to create a pool of water around a person who would be able to swim out? I'd simply do something else. Thus your point is pointless. Again. If I, as a mage, could control water, I'd simply summon a couple liters and force them up your nose into your lungs. You drown, bikini or not.
3. Functionality as far ar armour is concerned is connected to protection. You can view it in many ways, full plate can be cumbersome but is very sturdy, cloth does not actually protect from anything but you can move at your own natural speed without training, leather protects from minor wounds, blunt weapons hits and arrow shots and does not encumber much, thus leaving some moving capabilities (I am referring to gambesons which, @Enrif , it "is" proved to have been used as armour in itself, by iconography in particular and by archaeology). You can argue that moving quickly, thus dodging projectiles, is part of the functionality of your armour, so yes, cloth and leather armour can be functional, in their own way.
Plus he made an argument about a battle axe, you jumped to explain that lightning wouldn't work, which is like answering "its 7 o'clock" to someone that asks you "where are you from?". ___________________________
It will eventually come down to wether they will deem magic capable of being a reason in itself. Tolkien did not use that argument, I wouldn't have either, but that's the author choice so I guess that's up to the devs.
Surely this topic was interesting enough to show different points of view.
There are always going to be a lot of different opinions on this, and there are at least 3 threads on this now. Ya know what, I really don't care what women or other players think about skimpy clothing. You will have your character, clothe it the way you want. Quit trying to tell everyone else how to clothe theirs. If people want a metal bikini, more power to them, it's their character, not yours.
Geeze, this subject has been beaten more than a dead horse.
@ruairidh i know of gambesons, i mentioned them and i also own one myself And Gambesons are not Leather Armor. they are quilted linen or wool, so would count as cloth armor. But the thing about gambesons is, they are thick and densely layered.
@ruairidh i know of gambesons, i mentioned them and i also own one myself And Gambesons are not Leather Armor. they are quilted linen or wool, so would count as cloth armor. But the thing about gambesons is, they are thick and densely layered.
You're right, I was pretty much convinced they were leather for some reason, my bad. Then no proof at all? I hardly think that people could be all able to afford metal armour outside of statal systems like the roman empire, which provided soldiers with it. Besides pressed cloth, surely hardened leather should have been used, maybe not as depicted in movies and games but...
I for one, believe that choice is the key. Let there be a whole range of armor. Skimpy to fully loaded, male and female. Everyone gets to choose what they wear, and everyone tries not too be too offended with what other people are wearing or look like.
Here is a point that almost (disclaimer: didn't read a lot of the pages) everyone fail to address - body shapes. I for one do not really want the default shape of the male to be the paragon of man's bodybuilding and for the female's to be plucked from some pornstar. If possible, I really hope that there will be a full choice of body shapes for all the races and genders. If I want to play a soft-bodied merchant/summoner/priest, being a herculean male really breaks immersion. If that isn't possible, I rather for all races and genders for something to be more moderate. But that's just me.
Yes, yes yes and yes. But, with an addendum (only on my end, but this is my hope). I hope that the armor sets, skimpy or otherwise, will all reflect the world we inhabit in the game and not the irl world with maid's outfits, blah blah blah.
There is, however, one thing that annoys the heck out of me. That is when people lay down their opinion about which style should be in the game, and that no other styles should be allowed. Every other person here has the same right as you to share their ideas. It has been confirmed that the game will have a High Fantasy, which means that more likely than not there WILL be a large variety of armour/clothing styles. If you cannot accept that, then that is your problem. I am not pointing to anyone in particular at all, I just wanted to share my opinion on this matter.
Lol, does that negate what I just wrote?
No, in all seriousness, I get what you're saying, but I still do hold that I, personally, will find thing more immersive if I'm not being pelted with kitty-cat hats, hoodies, so on and so forth which are a part of our irl world, but not necessarily a part of high-fantasy worlds.
I sometimes wonder if there aren't more women than men in this forum... I really am considering this fact
Not sure there are more women than men in this forum, but there is a higher preponderance of us in these forums than in other games' forums; perhaps because we're drawn here for similar reasons? Having come up through the gaming life as it was being built from the ground up, I can say with certainty that while gaming has been predominated by men, there have actually always been a lot of us females active, as well. Now, here, I think all of us females feel more comfortable giving ourselves the freedom to let our voices be heard.
Comments
I never mentioned anything about filling the suit of armor with water lol wtf..
If a mage makes a big pool of water on an enemy, your character is going to struggle to swim out of it with a full suit of amor. - You and me will test this. We'll go to the swimming pool and I'll wear a bikini and you wear full metal, we'll dive in at the same time and see who gets to the other side the quickest.. My prediction, you won't. - Do you understand now?
It was a comment on "functionality" nowhere did he limit it to melee combat. And even if he did, by that logic, you're saying to remove all cloth and light armor because it's functionality isn't as good as full plate.
Just stop lol
Point I was making was, if I can choose to become whatever gender I want to be, and I can demand that everyone recognizes it as reality, then I can do the same with my race, gender, and any other situation I deem necessary in order to benefit myself. I know how ridiculous it sounds that a person could be so removed from reality that they choose to be a different race, but how is it any different than believing you are a different gender than the gender you were born.
When I mentioned SJW's, I thought I made it pretty clear the ones I was referring to. I totally believe in equality, but not at the expense of everyones' or anyones' rights. The SJW's I was referring to are the ones that would take away freedom and rights in the name of equality. Like the large group marching for equality, but chanting for police to be killed. Or the transgender man that threatened to cause Ben Shapiro to have to be taken home in an ambulance because Shapiro called him "Sir." Threatening violence because someone will not adopt your view of your gender identity is not only unacceptable, it is against the law.
If you mean have all armors wearable by any gender or race... I'm all for it.
In WoW, I typically have my Trolls and Forsaken dress in Tauren outfits and have Tauren dress in Troll or Forsaken outfits.
Tolkien fantasy has been a bit too focused on Western visions of costumes - specifically too focused on medieval European costumes and armor.
Many other cultures we can draw from where people, even today, are not relying on metal for armor or leather for armor - some that are not even relying on cloth for armor.
There are cultures where both the males and females wear skirts. There are cultures where both males and females wear thongs.
There are cultures in real life where warriors rely solely on warpaint as magical protection.
I hope we see options that run the gamut - where plate and chain and leather and cloth armor fully covers the body - and where plate and chain and leather and cloth scantily covers the body. For both males and females.
I hope some of that is racial/cultural.
I hope some of that ends up being regional/seasonal.
Especially where the game design already has some climate affecting elemental spells.
Wasn't so long ago that it was slutty for women in Western society to show their ankles or show the backs of their necks in public.
But, that's all cultural judgment.
Ashes has a wide variety of cultures - the Niküa appear to be Polynesian.
In a world of high magic, bikini armor, jewelry armor, war-paint armor, tattoo armor - should all be as viable as plate armor.
All depends on the enchantments.
Maybe that's the misconception we should fight here?
the nonsense of "light" and "medium" armor
Simple put, Clothing and Leather is not Armor. There isn't even historical proof of something like leather armor. Leather was used to hold the actual armor together but offers no real protective value. For Armor made out of clothing.... well that actually exists in the form of the gambeson or aketon. But not that above
Now if we go for game mechanics things are a bit different. But i for once would love if "Armor" that's simply clothing and leather doesn't offer any protection(but still has other stats). Real light armor would be only a breastplate, hauberk, brigantine or similar added to the clothing. Medium adding to that also leg and hand protection, and Heavy is the full suit.
And looking at the Predator. Most of his stuff is just Leather and clothing. Should add no Protection. But it seems he has kind of a breastplate. Now it depends of the material. If its metal i could say thats a Light Armor set, which is fitting for a roguish character. If it's only leather it shouldn't be considered Armor, but simply clothing. Would still fit the roguish character. And before those people come arguing "but its magic!". If magic provides all the time such good protection, why bother wearing heavy armor in the first place? There needs to be some logic in the world creation or it will just feel porley created.
Dwarve: Oh yes we dwarves have mastered every craftsmanship and will tailor the finest armor for you!
Half naked Elf runs into the battle with its huge twohander
Elf: Armor? my Bikini of partial nudity grants me a bigger armor bonus then any heavy armor.... because Magic!
Ashes is not historical fiction.
Ashes is high fantasy.
The images I posted are armor sets. They aren't simply clothing.
It may very well be that the protection of a Niküa grass armor set is greater than that of a Dünir metal/plate armor set.
All depends on the power of the specific enchantments.
It doesn't make sense that heavy armor exists if people can fight in a wedding dress with the same protective value.
also high fantasy =/= comically over the top nonsense
Even in real life, armor runs the gamut from full plate mail to warpaint only.
The different types exist because of culture and climate and regional resources.
But, in a high fantasy setting, magic is real.
Whether a wedding dress offers more protection than a set of armor will depend on the strength of the specific enchantments on the specific dress and set of armor.
(I need a thumbs-up emoji)
we can only wait and see
Tolkien was way too European-centric. To put it nicely.
Now that's settled, on to the answers:
1. wether you wear a bikini or an armour your own body is conductive, so it's pretty pointless. You die in both cases.
2. why would I be so stupid to create a pool of water around a person who would be able to swim out? I'd simply do something else. Thus your point is pointless. Again. If I, as a mage, could control water, I'd simply summon a couple liters and force them up your nose into your lungs. You drown, bikini or not.
3. Functionality as far ar armour is concerned is connected to protection. You can view it in many ways, full plate can be cumbersome but is very sturdy, cloth does not actually protect from anything but you can move at your own natural speed without training, leather protects from minor wounds, blunt weapons hits and arrow shots and does not encumber much, thus leaving some moving capabilities (I am referring to gambesons which, @Enrif , it "is" proved to have been used as armour in itself, by iconography in particular and by archaeology). You can argue that moving quickly, thus dodging projectiles, is part of the functionality of your armour, so yes, cloth and leather armour can be functional, in their own way.
Plus he made an argument about a battle axe, you jumped to explain that lightning wouldn't work, which is like answering "its 7 o'clock" to someone that asks you "where are you from?".
___________________________
It will eventually come down to wether they will deem magic capable of being a reason in itself. Tolkien did not use that argument, I wouldn't have either, but that's the author choice so I guess that's up to the devs.
Surely this topic was interesting enough to show different points of view.
Geeze, this subject has been beaten more than a dead horse.
Yeah... I can't even anymore
i know of gambesons, i mentioned them and i also own one myself
And Gambesons are not Leather Armor. they are quilted linen or wool, so would count as cloth armor. But the thing about gambesons is, they are thick and densely layered.
Then no proof at all? I hardly think that people could be all able to afford metal armour outside of statal systems like the roman empire, which provided soldiers with it.
Besides pressed cloth, surely hardened leather should have been used, maybe not as depicted in movies and games but...
Lol, does that negate what I just wrote?
No, in all seriousness, I get what you're saying, but I still do hold that I, personally, will find thing more immersive if I'm not being pelted with kitty-cat hats, hoodies, so on and so forth which are a part of our irl world, but not necessarily a part of high-fantasy worlds.
Not sure there are more women than men in this forum, but there is a higher preponderance of us in these forums than in other games' forums; perhaps because we're drawn here for similar reasons? Having come up through the gaming life as it was being built from the ground up, I can say with certainty that while gaming has been predominated by men, there have actually always been a lot of us females active, as well. Now, here, I think all of us females feel more comfortable giving ourselves the freedom to let our voices be heard.