Should the art of Mezzing mobs return?

ArchivedUser

So... Seeing that the team is made up of old school soe mmo developers (everquest, everquest 2 etc). Do you people think that classes that focus on mesmerizing (a spell that puts a mob to sleep until it is damaged) type roles should be a thing again?

It's been a really long time since I've last played a game that required mezzing and skillful mob pulling by players and I personally find it awfully fun. It used to be found in a lot of early mmos but that role kinda died out as mmos evolved. 

Also feel free to share about your love for Mezzers. Being quick enough to mezz the mob that an overzealous cleric have edged too close to to prevent the group wipe etc. Ahhhhhh... Memories.  

ArchivedUser

My vote is "Other".

I like your idea of mezzers making a "return", but I'm honestly not sure how viable they would be. 

CC's (crowd control) abilities have the potential to be extremely powerful, and possibly game breaking, if not implemented in the correct manner.  The effects of this are probaly not as apparent in PvE. But, in PvP scenarios, it can be devastating.  

The mezzer has unparalleled control of the battlefield, through CC's, because that's how that class is built.  But, to make sure it's balanced, you have to have DR (diminishing returns), meaning the more a target is subjected to CC's, the less effective they become, within a certain time frame.  This is to prevent CC chains, and rightfully so.  Being repeatedly "stun locked", or "chain feared", to death is horribly unfair, and unfun.

But, for the mezzer, it's also unfun if the base of your playstyle is undercut by DR, to the point where, when you're not CC'ing, you're just standing there like a lump on a log.  

I think that's why developers chose to split CC abilities between the various classes, in flavorful ways.  Granted, this means that there are no more "full" CC classes, like Mezz's.  However, if there were a way to make a Mezz class, while avoiding the afore mentioned pitfalls, then cool stuff!

ArchivedUser

We can tame mobs, so it's likely we will have some form of mez - especially Rangers. But also in the Animal Husbandry path of the Artisan role.

ArchivedUser

Haven't played one since the LM in LOTRO but it was a lot of fun, not my favourite class but it was fun. Having said that, the same game proved how awful the PvP could get with so much CC around. It would need to be Implemented carefully but I wouldn't be against it if that's what people wanted.

ArchivedUser

I think this wil be in the game for sure. Like we get so many classes with specialties. We already saw that the mage can put things to fire. So maybe combination with other elements wil also be a thing for controling mobs.

We will see

ArchivedUser

Yeah. Some crowd control will probably have to have a rather different effect in pvp than in pve. Maybe mezzes turns into a severe accuracy debuff, or attack speed debuff. Or a slightly longer stun compared to a long duration mezz. 

I too played a LM in lotro as well. Haha. I think that was my last foray into mezzing. 

ArchivedUser

I voted no because there shouldn't be a specific CC class in a PvP game, that usually leads to imbalance.

All classes should be balanced and have an equal CC potential.

ArchivedUser

I only just read through the description of the Bard on the kickstarter page (I've glanced at it a few times previously but never really paid attention)

"Truly a force multiplier, the Bard weaves songs of glory and conquest, inspiring his comrades to ever greater heights. The Bard knows secret and powerful words, able to speak into being terrible nightmares, or to convince foes to becomes friends.

Looks like crowd control through Fear and Charm's definitely going to be a thing and it seems to be one of the roles of the bard. Woohoo! Can't wait to mezz some mobs.

Or does "speak into being terrible nightmares" mean summoning a nightmare? 

ArchivedUser

I'm not sure how viable it will be in Ashes - only time will tell when we find out more from the team. I do think it will have some sort of role with bard but how I don't know ^^
I really miss mezzing specs though so would be nice to see it return ^^ I can understand if it doesn't though x.x

ArchivedUser

Nice find @AutumnWillow I missed that myself. Can't wait for the chants and stuff. I loved playing a Dwarf Minstrel as I think the Tolkien representation is the best Dwarf representation in gaming (just imo) and the taunts were awesome...Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai menu! etc. Great fun!

ArchivedUser

I wouldn't want to see Mezzer as a dedicated primary role, but it would be cool for the various class combinations to spec into some sort of CC sub-role for PVE. E.g. a Mage with charm spells, a Bard with a sleeping / pacifying song, a Rogue with the ability to stun / knock out an enemy temporarily, and so forth. Bosses and elite mobs would resist these types of skills, but they could potentially count towards a CC counter that players could stack onto a mob (e.g. Wildstar). Again, as everyone else mentioned, CC would have to be handled carefully for PVP.

ArchivedUser

It's probably the healer in me that loves putting a mob to sleep so they're or of the action and the group's easier to heal....but there's nothing so frustrating as a random spanning aoes waking everyone up again, ok once it's an accident, twice is excitement, three times they just .... well you know

ArchivedUser

Megs said:

It's probably the healer in me that loves putting a mob to sleep so they're or of the action and the group's easier to heal....but there's nothing so frustrating as a random spanning aoes waking everyone up again, ok once it's an accident, twice is excitement, three times they just .... well you know

Heh heh, yeah. Make sure you have your mezzing macros set up. 

"Mezzing %t! Do not attack it!"

ArchivedUser

Solarion said:

I wouldn't want to see Mezzer as a dedicated primary role, but it would be cool for the various class combinations to spec into some sort of CC sub-role for PVE. E.g. a Mage with charm spells, a Bard with a sleeping / pacifying song, a Rogue with the ability to stun / knock out an enemy temporarily, and so forth. Bosses and elite mobs would resist these types of skills, but they could potentially count towards a CC counter that players could stack onto a mob (e.g. Wildstar). Again, as everyone else mentioned, CC would have to be handled carefully for PVP.

I think the crowd control role will be more of a secondary role unlike the roles of DPS, Tank and Support.

I kinda hope they limit the classes that have access to good CC though, in the context of PvE at least. 

ArchivedUser

I wouldn't mind if they limited the CC to the instanced PvP like battlegrounds and such. Too much CC in open world is going to get annoying, fast.  

ArchivedUser

Agreed I mean AOE and CC for a summoner is a pain in the ass to deal with so I would like there to be as little as possible but thats just me.

ArchivedUser

Speaking of summoners, I hope pet AI learn to ignore mezzed targets if they do implement it. Heh heh. 

ArchivedUser

AutumnWillow said:

Speaking of summoners, I hope pet AI learn to ignore mezzed targets if they do implement it. Heh heh. 

If you played FF12, they had a very good idea when it came to controlling NPC where they would target certain conditions like despell or peril maybe we could have something like that in the game

ArchivedUser

@AutumnWillow  Yeah, that sounds fair for PVE. All classes could have a few CC skills (e.g. shield bash for a tank etc.), but CC heavy PVE builds should be limited to a smaller pool of classes.

As for PVP, I could see all classes having some CC or anti-CC abilities. If ranged classes have CC in PVP, non-CC classes like tanks should have skills that give them a chance to block the CC altogether (a well-timed barrier or evade) or shrug off the CC effects once struck. Also, melee classes would definitely need gap closers (charge, stealth in the case of rogues, etc.).  

If they balance the resource consumption / frequency of use, there should be a dance of kiting and gap closing abilities where the better player can come out on top (at least if both are DPS). It's impossible to have classes balanced perfectly for 1v1, but every class should have a big impact on the battlefield. I wouldn't expect a tank to beat a ranged DPS 1v1, but it'd be fair if the tank has a way to charge in and shield bash the pesky enemy mage / cleric / ranger. If the tank's DPS allies are around, they can help focus fire the target. It goes both ways though, as I think the enemy mage should have a chance to dodge the incoming charge.

ArchivedUser

If they could somehow make mezzes apply to mobs only, then I could see it being popular with everyone including the PvPers.

ArchivedUser

Too much CC in PvP games gets aggravating and old fast.  Overdone CC too frequently takes game control away from CC'd player forcing them to watch the game or other players play them.  It's an experience that drives many players away from games.

I really like the ice wall that was shown in one of the videos as a crowd control method for both PvE and PvP.  The opponent whether it's another player or an NPC isn't put to sleep, stunned, or otherwise immobilized yet the player or party is temporarily protected.  I'd far rather see more mechanics like that which put up barriers or otherwise put distance between yourself or a party member and the attacker than outright mezzing.

If mezzing is implemented at all I'd like to see it require constant control from the mezzing player as a balance factor.  That way one opponent is removed from the fight but the mezzing player also removes them self from doing anything else.  There should also be the normal skills and abilities for players to break a mez so 2 vs 1 PvP fights are not always a losing situation.

ArchivedUser

Mhyth said:

Too much CC in PvP games gets aggravating and old fast.  Overdone CC too frequently takes game control away from CC'd player forcing them to watch the game or other players play them.  It's an experience that drives many players away from games.

I really like the ice wall that was shown in one of the videos as a crowd control method for both PvE and PvP.  The opponent whether it's another player or an NPC isn't put to sleep, stunned, or otherwise immobilized yet the player or party is temporarily protected.  I'd far rather see more mechanics like that which put up barriers or otherwise put distance between yourself or a party member and the attacker than outright mezzing.

If mezzing is implemented at all I'd like to see it require constant control from the mezzing player as a balance factor.  That way one opponent is removed from the fight but the mezzing player also removes them self from doing anything else.  There should also be the normal skills and abilities for players to break a mez so 2 vs 1 PvP fights are not always a losing situation.

Yeah, I'd go a step further to say that Mezzing should have no place in PvP. A long duration spell there opponents have no ability to move might lead to griefing. 

Perhaps mezz could then be a strong accuracy, slow attack speed or even a defensive debuff in PvP instead. Distracting a combatant during the battle so they can't fight as effectively.

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

AutumnWillow said:

Speaking of summoners, I hope pet AI learn to ignore mezzed targets if they do implement it. Heh heh. 

If you played FF12, they had a very good idea when it came to controlling NPC where they would target certain conditions like despell or peril maybe we could have something like that in the game

Oh no I haven't played FF. 

I think in Everquest 1 and 2 pets don't break/damage mezzed targets unless specifically commanded to attack them. I can't really remember if that was the case, it's been so long. That would be a good workaround as well.

ArchivedUser

I like the results. We want CC (personally both hard and soft control). but we don't want to be the ones who focus on it.

ArchivedUser

One of our guildies is one of the best CC players I've ever seen, and he really loves that playstyle. I can see the debate from both perspectives -- PvE & PvP. I think if it's something that can be done so that a good player can counter/reflect, then there's hope, but if it's something that becomes a perma-stun type situation, then I'd have to say, "Run away, run away!"

ArchivedUser

CC is great as long as the effects are brief and limited. Roots, stuns, snares and the like all have their uses. Mezzing like an enchanter in EQ is likely too strong for most PvP focused games.

ArchivedUser

I'd prefer cc to be more of an active effort to keep a mob or person pinned. Like you have to counter their attempts to escape.

ArchivedUser

Isende said:

One of our guildies is one of the best CC players I've ever seen, and he really loves that playstyle. I can see the debate from both perspectives -- PvE & PvP. I think if it's something that can be done so that a good player can counter/reflect, then there's hope, but if it's something that becomes a perma-stun type situation, then I'd have to say, "Run away, run away!"

I'm totally with you on this in that I can understand what both both perspectives are concerned about. I hope the dev team will be able to find a suitable compromise. Till then... feel free to speculate away on how this pvp/pve problem can be fixed and/or reminisce about the glory days of mezzing. 

ArchivedUser

Ahh good old days. New level, no dungeon, noone has any clue.

<tank> "hey we got a bit of cc so just in case" <proceeds to mark enemies for snares, stuns sleeps>
<heal>"With what happened in the last dungeon, I think it's reasonable to take it a little slower the first few groups" <charges in to pull the rest>
<mage> "Oh come on this takes to long" <AoE bombs the whole group putting everyone in a mad

frency and somehow with no mana, barely any hp and a dead mage, comes out winning as a groupe>
<patrol turns a corner>
Those were the grand days of even trivial dungeons being fun! <cries laughing>

ArchivedUser

Grisu said:

Ahh good old days. New level, no dungeon, noone has any clue.

<tank> "hey we got a bit of cc so just in case" <proceeds to mark enemies for snares, stuns sleeps>
<heal>"With what happened in the last dungeon, I think it's reasonable to take it a little slower the first few groups" <charges in to pull the rest>
<mage> "Oh come on this takes to long" <AoE bombs the whole group putting everyone in a mad

frency and somehow with no mana, barely any hp and a dead mage, comes out winning as a groupe>
<patrol turns a corner>
Those were the grand days of even trivial dungeons being fun! <cries laughing>

Hahah, this is totally how it feels to be a mezzer. 

There's also the times when no one wants to admit that they broke the mezz. Then the quiet checking of combat logs to see who the culprit was... tension. 

ArchivedUser

CC is great, so long as it is somehow limited in PvP