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Class Diversity: Keep It Diverse

Diversity: As Different As Possible


I'm scared of "The Great Homogenization" that has befallen many an MMO.

I am very excited about the class structure hinted at by the devs for Ashes of Creation. You choose your primary class, then can choose a secondary class that modifies the skills and abilities of the primary. A fighter with a charge takes the mage sub class, and maybe the charge teleports you to the target. This is very interesting, and very exciting!

My fear rests in the pitfall that many MMOs have experienced. As a game matures, the player base does as well, and they begin to beg for their favourite class to be as effective as the others at their given task. Given enough time, DPS classes are balanced with other DPS classes, healers with healers, and tanks with tanks. 

For the sake of balance, for example, each tank would be given a "damage reduction" ability on a short cooldown, and better "damage reduction" ability on a longer cooldown, etc. On and on, over and over, and eventually over the course of time a lot of the classes begin to feel the same.

Please keep things diverse. Please allow the different classes to function differently, with unique playstyles and mechanics, even at the expense of "balance". There will be a class that deals the most damage, there will be a tank that lives the longest, and there will be a healer that heals the best. Short some obscene unbalance, keep things as diverse as possible.

TLDR: Classes in many MMOs are too similar all in the name of balance. Try your best to keep class diversity as different and unique as possible.
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Comments

  • I agree with your sentiment. It's a shame when you see all the people you used to group with all being a valued team member then a game change comes along and everyone can solo and grouping is relegated for a different type of gameplay.
  • Mythanon said:
    I agree with your sentiment. It's a shame when you see all the people you used to group with all being a valued team member then a game change comes along and everyone can solo and grouping is relegated for a different type of gameplay.

    That's my  fear also. Diversity is good and makes for better game play and more fun. 
  • I hope Stevens love for mmos will reflect your comment and into practice as the game develops :) With open development we are very lucky to be able to voice our opinions and have it heard and help guide ashes into the mmo we all dream of :)
  • As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
  • As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
    As I said in another post I can imagine Steven playing with us after launch cruising between servers on his sandal dragon or trolling us with a monster coin :3 he's making a game he wants to play too and that counts for the entire staff at inrepid.
  • Balancing has to happen to a certain degree, after all if orc/mage/tank/tank end up OP then you'll probably end up seeing hoards of orc/mage/tank/tank roaming around together... this also holds up on diversity. 

    Though overbalancing causes exactly the same problem from the other side. 
    Euch. Tricky one, good luck Intrepid!

  • As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
    I get what you're saying, but what if a "DPS" role has built their character to do more CC and less damage? In this instance, you're losing the "balance with other DPS" due to the player's style of playing and build of their character.

    I think "balance" has become a horrible, dirty word in MMOs, justifiably so. I think that a player building a build that satisfies them, and lets them operate within their comfort zone, will naturally incline that build to be better for that player, regardless of how the rest of the community will see it.

    In the last 10 years or so, I've watched one question become more prevalent, in regards to MMOs, than almost any other. It's this:

    "What's the best build for XYZ?"

    Before the influx of min-maxers with meters to measure everybloodything, the answer to that used to be "Whatever suits your playstyle best." Then the above-mentioned influx began, and it became easier for people to adopt someone else's build than it was for them to play around with the options, explore what made them happiest, and go from there. In short, the producers of games changed the games so that the LCD could always be viable, and experimentation and exploration went out the window. I sincerely hope that "balance" isn't pursued nearly so strongly as exploration is. 
  • Isende said:
    As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
    I get what you're saying, but what if a "DPS" role has built their character to do more CC and less damage? In this instance, you're losing the "balance with other DPS" due to the player's style of playing and build of their character.

    I think "balance" has become a horrible, dirty word in MMOs, justifiably so. I think that a player building a build that satisfies them, and lets them operate within their comfort zone, will naturally incline that build to be better for that player, regardless of how the rest of the community will see it.

    In the last 10 years or so, I've watched one question become more prevalent, in regards to MMOs, than almost any other. It's this:

    "What's the best build for XYZ?"

    Before the influx of min-maxers with meters to measure everybloodything, the answer to that used to be "Whatever suits your playstyle best." Then the above-mentioned influx began, and it became easier for people to adopt someone else's build than it was for them to play around with the options, explore what made them happiest, and go from there. In short, the producers of games changed the games so that the LCD could always be viable, and experimentation and exploration went out the window. I sincerely hope that "balance" isn't pursued nearly so strongly as exploration is. 
    @Isende, I specifically recall your Thief build in GW2.  The "prevailing wisdom" in chat during that time was that all Thieves should be based on stealth and crit.  Anything else just wasn't viable.  The build you created based on mobility and self heals was UH-mazing!  And so much fun.
  • Possum said:
    Isende said:
    As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
    I get what you're saying, but what if a "DPS" role has built their character to do more CC and less damage? In this instance, you're losing the "balance with other DPS" due to the player's style of playing and build of their character.

    I think "balance" has become a horrible, dirty word in MMOs, justifiably so. I think that a player building a build that satisfies them, and lets them operate within their comfort zone, will naturally incline that build to be better for that player, regardless of how the rest of the community will see it.

    In the last 10 years or so, I've watched one question become more prevalent, in regards to MMOs, than almost any other. It's this:

    "What's the best build for XYZ?"

    Before the influx of min-maxers with meters to measure everybloodything, the answer to that used to be "Whatever suits your playstyle best." Then the above-mentioned influx began, and it became easier for people to adopt someone else's build than it was for them to play around with the options, explore what made them happiest, and go from there. In short, the producers of games changed the games so that the LCD could always be viable, and experimentation and exploration went out the window. I sincerely hope that "balance" isn't pursued nearly so strongly as exploration is. 
    @Isende, I specifically recall your Thief build in GW2.  The "prevailing wisdom" in chat during that time was that all Thieves should be based on stealth and crit.  Anything else just wasn't viable.  The build you created based on mobility and self heals was UH-mazing!  And so much fun.
    This is the kind of stuff I hope we see more of.
  • 100%, though I believe in one of the videos they talked about "rock, paper, scissor" balancing where A counters B, B counters C, and C counters A.  Correct me if im wrong.
  • @Possum, that thief build certainly was amazing. Downtrodden because it relied on bleeds to supply the damage that helped with the self-heals, but also just literally bled out your opponent as they stumbled to fall, crumpled, at your feet.

    Ah, yes, good times :smiley:
  • It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Kratz said:
    It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
    If you want something different, you need different people with different perspectives.  If you want the same thing you've always had, you look to the same developers who do the same "tried and true" things.

    The other established game developers criticize that which is different because they fear the change it represents.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Severok said:
    100%, though I believe in one of the videos they talked about "rock, paper, scissor" balancing where A counters B, B counters C, and C counters A.  Correct me if im wrong.
    I really hope this isn't the case. It seems far too simplistic, when there are so many stats that go into making your character:
    • Class stats
    • Secondary class stats
    • Gear stats
    • Node stats
    • Guild stats
    • Religion stats
    • Profession stats
    • Flask/pot spell stats
    Many of these things are dynamic and may go up and down over time, say when your node is attacked or destroyed, or your guild rank changes, or your deity decides to up and leave. There are so many factors that affect balance, I can't see how there could be a simple rock paper scissors way of pre-determining who should win a fight. 

    Also, these stats don't take into account player skill. Some classes might be so hard to master that the average output on the stats might have to be scaled to take that into account.

    Some class combos might be insanely OP or very weak compared to other single classes, but when combined with other class compositions to provide buffs, heals or mitigation, the opposite might be true!

    Given all of this, I don't think class balance is going to be straightforward. Selecting good playtesters will be critical, because Ashes will probably be several times more complex than other MMOs.
  • Kratz said:
    It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
    This actually made me feel more comfortable with Intrepid because it's become so apparent that people feel threatened by this movement of wanting a MMO that isn't all the things companies have been trying to make us like.

    I really hope we see this game( as it's promised) be the new benchmark for MMORPGs.
  • Karthos said:
    Kratz said:
    It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
    This actually made me feel more comfortable with Intrepid because it's become so apparent that people feel threatened by this movement of wanting a MMO that isn't all the things companies have been trying to make us like.

    I really hope we see this game( as it's promised) be the new benchmark for MMORPGs.
    This is my utmost wish. I want to hang my hat on this MMO and say "Look. This here. This is my home, and I'm proud of it."
  • RACE, CLASS, CRAFT, SOCIAL, RELIGION.

    MIX. MATCH. MANY OPTION.

    FIND FAVORITE ROLE!
  • Umji said:
    RACE, CLASS, CRAFT, SOCIAL, RELIGION.

    MIX. MATCH. MANY OPTION.

    FIND FAVORITE ROLE!
    This made me laugh more than it probably should of
  • @Possum! What have you done to your sig? You've ruined it!! :D

    Only kidding my friend, your new one looks great. :3

  • Kratz said:

    @Possum! What have you done to your sig? You've ruined it!! :D

    Only kidding my friend, your new one looks great. :3

    @Krojak & @AutumnWillow inspired me to give it a go.  :)
  • @Possum awwww, nice! omg feign death! Sneaky monks!
  • @Possum awwww, nice! omg feign death! Sneaky monks!
    I like the quote very much. Gives me hope that I'll be around for a few years yet :)
  • Kratz said:
    @Possum awwww, nice! omg feign death! Sneaky monks!
    I like the quote very much. Gives me hope that I'll be around for a few years yet :)
    I modified it a little bit.  I used to say, "Old gamers never die, they just level up."  But I decided that "feign death" was a better choice for someone calling himself "Possum".  :)
  • Possum said:
    Kratz said:
    @Possum awwww, nice! omg feign death! Sneaky monks!
    I like the quote very much. Gives me hope that I'll be around for a few years yet :)
    I modified it a little bit.  I used to say, "Old gamers never die, they just level up."  But I decided that "feign death" was a better choice for someone calling himself "Possum".  :)
    Hah, I like that also but keep it as it. I hope to be feigning death for a long time :)
  • If you tempt death too much you know what happens
  • nagash said:
    If you tempt death too much you know what happens
    It comes for us all. I'm not afraid :)
  • Kratz said:
    nagash said:
    If you tempt death too much you know what happens
    It comes for us all. I'm not afraid :)
    Thats the spirit go out fighting 
  • nagash said:
    If you tempt death too much you know what happens
    I just wanna have as many "perfect moments" each day that, when it happens, and my life replays, that's how I go out.

    To this end, I strive to make each moment as perfect as possible, up to and including giving @Possum as much shite as possible, every moment possible.

    See how he suffers for my benefit? He's a good hubband-type person :wink:
  • Isende said:
    nagash said:
    If you tempt death too much you know what happens
    I just wanna have as many "perfect moments" each day that, when it happens, and my life replays, that's how I go out.

    To this end, I strive to make each moment as perfect as possible, up to and including giving @Possum as much shite as possible, every moment possible.

    See how he suffers for my benefit? He's a good hubband-type person :wink:
    Let's be clear... I happily return the favor.  :)  It's what makes our relationship work.  lol
  • luckily the internet has been rendered immune by kittens, otherwise it may have just died from too much 'awwwww'  @Isende and @Possum <3
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