Glorious Alpha Two Testers!

Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.

Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

Class Diversity: Keep It Diverse

2»

Comments

  • This is why gaming is great for marriage ^^
  • Isende said:
    Before the influx of min-maxers with meters to measure everybloodything, the answer to that used to be "Whatever suits your playstyle best." Then the above-mentioned influx began, and it became easier for people to adopt someone else's build than it was for them to play around with the options, explore what made them happiest, and go from there. In short, the producers of games changed the games so that the LCD could always be viable, and experimentation and exploration went out the window. I sincerely hope that "balance" isn't pursued nearly so strongly as exploration is. 
    The ironic thing is of course that over the last 10 years it's become substantially easier to experiment since many games allow for respeccing/reallocation of stat points on your character in some way.
  • The homogenisation for me was one of the worst things to happen to World of Warcraft.

    They initially had a bunch of individual classes with their own flavour that all brought useful tools to the table, playing as an Alliance player and bumping into a Horde-exclusive Shaman was one of those things that was exciting, just as a Horde player bumping into a Paladin would have been super cool.

    Each of the classes would have their own unique spells that added to the unique flavour of the classes; hunters would have 'Eyes of the Beast' which allowed them to take control of their pet, Priests would have different spells depending on which race they were, Paladins had a spell called Divine Intervention where they would sacrifice themselves to give a protective bubble to a party member, etc. etc.

    All of these super cool unique spells were removed which in my eyes removed a lot of the flavour from these different classes.
  • Possum said:
    Kratz said:
    @Possum awwww, nice! omg feign death! Sneaky monks!
    I like the quote very much. Gives me hope that I'll be around for a few years yet :)
    I modified it a little bit.  I used to say, "Old gamers never die, they just level up."  But I decided that "feign death" was a better choice for someone calling himself "Possum".  :)
    Your sig and your name never even twigged in my mind. suddenly i think that's the best combination i've seen, and in keeping with the thread, VERY diverse. 
  • nagash said:
    This is why gaming is great for marriage ^^
    I'm very lucky in many, many ways but I think my wife would disagree :)
  • nagash said:
    This is why gaming is great for marriage ^^
    Gaming IS great for marriage!
  • Krojak said:
    nagash said:
    This is why gaming is great for marriage ^^
    Gaming IS great for marriage!
    I agree wholeheartedly @Krojak. My marriage is great because we are both gamers... but I can't speak for marriages where this is not the case :cold_sweat:
  • Krojak said:

    Diversity: As Different As Possible


    I'm scared of "The Great Homogenization" that has befallen many an MMO.

    I am very excited about the class structure hinted at by the devs for Ashes of Creation. You choose your primary class, then can choose a secondary class that modifies the skills and abilities of the primary. A fighter with a charge takes the mage sub class, and maybe the charge teleports you to the target. This is very interesting, and very exciting!

    My fear rests in the pitfall that many MMOs have experienced. As a game matures, the player base does as well, and they begin to beg for their favourite class to be as effective as the others at their given task. Given enough time, DPS classes are balanced with other DPS classes, healers with healers, and tanks with tanks. 

    For the sake of balance, for example, each tank would be given a "damage reduction" ability on a short cooldown, and better "damage reduction" ability on a longer cooldown, etc. On and on, over and over, and eventually over the course of time a lot of the classes begin to feel the same.

    Please keep things diverse. Please allow the different classes to function differently, with unique playstyles and mechanics, even at the expense of "balance". There will be a class that deals the most damage, there will be a tank that lives the longest, and there will be a healer that heals the best. Short some obscene unbalance, keep things as diverse as possible.

    TLDR: Classes in many MMOs are too similar all in the name of balance. Try your best to keep class diversity as different and unique as possible.
    Agreed! And players need to realize that if they pick Cleric/mage for example. They will not be able to heal as well as a Cleric/Cleric. They are sacrificing heals for other utilities or dps (Which is fine!). Or Somebody who goes Tank/Rogue may not be able to take as much abuse as a tank/tank, but they may be able  to evade better, tank/Cleric will have good self heals or more utility stuff like that is what will make the game great!

    As long as every Archtype has its place in all the content then there should be no need to Homogenize every Archtype.
  • Possum said:
    Kratz said:
    It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
    If you want something different, you need different people with different perspectives.  If you want the same thing you've always had, you look to the same developers who do the same "tried and true" things.

    The other established game developers criticize that which is different because they fear the change it represents.
    That's it in a nutshell.  Not just the change but the profit a good game will take from the not so good games that they try to push off on people.
    The first review I read was on the negative side by a blogger.  ESO ads where featured on the page.  I immediately looked for more information and here I am.  We will hear and read more negative reviews as time goes on because they don't want the competition to succeed.
  • Eh I've always been torn between unique visuals and unique combat type. I enjoy having classes very distinct yet easy to balance. This is easier to do if left in types. So I wonder what exactly people like when it comes to having distinct classes.

    Balance burst damage like mage and fighter (even longbowman/sniper). Balance DoT classes like rogue (poisons) and warlock (diseases). These have similar combat styles with very distinct visuals (leather wearer in melee range vs the clothie in long range).

    That way they are easier to balance while leaving their combat style and visual style very unique.

    The same can be done with healers (HoT vs Burst) and tanks (armor vs evasion vs damage sponge)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    lexmax said:
    Severok said:
    100%, though I believe in one of the videos they talked about "rock, paper, scissor" balancing where A counters B, B counters C, and C counters A.  Correct me if im wrong.
    I really hope this isn't the case. It seems far too simplistic, when there are so many stats that go into making your character:
    • Class stats
    • Secondary class stats
    • Gear stats
    • Node stats
    • Guild stats
    • Religion stats
    • Profession stats
    • Flask/pot spell stats
    Many of these things are dynamic and may go up and down over time, say when your node is attacked or destroyed, or your guild rank changes, or your deity decides to up and leave. There are so many factors that affect balance, I can't see how there could be a simple rock paper scissors way of pre-determining who should win a fight. 

    Also, these stats don't take into account player skill. Some classes might be so hard to master that the average output on the stats might have to be scaled to take that into account.

    Some class combos might be insanely OP or very weak compared to other single classes, but when combined with other class compositions to provide buffs, heals or mitigation, the opposite might be true!

    Given all of this, I don't think class balance is going to be straightforward. Selecting good playtesters will be critical, because Ashes will probably be several times more complex than other MMOs.
    The problem isn't the rock paper scissors system if  you base it off of skills and not the class themselves. You make it a battle of skills than a battle of classes. Meaning one "mage build" may not be as effective against another "mage build" against a certain type of "cleric build" but the less effective mage build may be rockingly good against that other "cleric build" there on the side all based on what skills are chosen.

    Don't look at it as a battle of classes. It should be a battle of skills.
  • As long as they balance with the idea of roles in mind (dps classes balanced with other dps), that should be good. 

    I like having an mmo gamer as a lead designer. It make me feel somewhat safer. 
    I so agree with you on that... a game.. made by a gamer for the gamers out there that wish they could make a game for gamers..... :D   
  • tylerr385 said:
    -snip- (sorry @Krojak!)
    Agreed! And players need to realize that if they pick Cleric/mage for example. They will not be able to heal as well as a Cleric/Cleric. They are sacrificing heals for other utilities or dps (Which is fine!). Or Somebody who goes Tank/Rogue may not be able to take as much abuse as a tank/tank, but they may be able  to evade better, tank/Cleric will have good self heals or more utility stuff like that is what will make the game great!

    -snip-
    Actually, we don't know that a Cleric/Mage wouldn't be able to heal as well as a Cleric/Cleric. What if, by merging into the Mage line, we pick up an ability that decreases our mana cost for spells? Or one that increases our Crit ability? These will be different ways of healing, but not necessarily lesser. Honestly, until we do know how things shake out, we just don't know enough to know whether different will also mean lesser.
  • This is very important to me, each class needs to be unique and different.  I have seen one post, and I can't remember what section it was, they were asking for all classes to be able to do everything.  I'll quit if that happens.....
  • Isende said:
    tylerr385 said:
    -snip- (sorry @Krojak!)
    Agreed! And players need to realize that if they pick Cleric/mage for example. They will not be able to heal as well as a Cleric/Cleric. They are sacrificing heals for other utilities or dps (Which is fine!). Or Somebody who goes Tank/Rogue may not be able to take as much abuse as a tank/tank, but they may be able  to evade better, tank/Cleric will have good self heals or more utility stuff like that is what will make the game great!

    -snip-
    Actually, we don't know that a Cleric/Mage wouldn't be able to heal as well as a Cleric/Cleric. What if, by merging into the Mage line, we pick up an ability that decreases our mana cost for spells? Or one that increases our Crit ability? These will be different ways of healing, but not necessarily lesser. Honestly, until we do know how things shake out, we just don't know enough to know whether different will also mean lesser.
    Well, all else being equal, Cleric/Cleric has double heals, so should be able to out heal a Cleric/Mage... based on what the devs have said in the livestreams.
    But, yeah, it's generally not going to be that simple.
    Depends on the specific builds: race, gear and Religion/Social/Guild augments will also play a factor..

  • Dygz said:

    Well, all else being equal, Cleric/Cleric has double heals, so should be able to out heal a Cleric/Mage... based on what the devs have said in the livestreams.
    But, yeah, it's generally not going to be that simple.
    Depends on the specific builds: race, gear and Religion/Social/Guild augments will also play a factor..


        I would add that being Cleric/Cleric "might" have lesser heals than a Cleric/Mage IF that Cleric Mage chose a God with bonus healing, came from a Node with special bonuses for healing, had specific gear to give better healing, along with having a mana decrease concept, AND from one Race that had bonuses to healing vs that Cleric/Cleric who might choose a God of Defense, a Node of War (to give more DPS), gear with defense, and a Race of sturdiness. 

       With the amount of options to make a character unique, it seems that just picking a certain "second" will not be the end-all for having an L33T maxed out character for one particular function.  It will probably also be supremely beneficial in sieges and wars when you "think" that character isn't going to be a big deal, but in reality they have extra support abilities from all of the things you don't see beyond being a Cleric/Mage or Cleric/Cleric.
  • I think with the amount of choices you make for a particular character, it would be tough to make them all cookie-cutter in the sense that each character type can do "everything" on their own.  It is definitely something to look forward to, especially with the vast amount of options.

    The issue with other games, like WoW, is that they are around so long that people get into the "I'm going to make another alt on this server" attitude and they just want to power level it, complain it is so boring, and the Devs just start changing things to make every class have a heal, have a taunt, have a defensive ability, have a DPS attack, etc etc., which then allows someone to just solo up so they can do "end game" stuff with that new alt.  I don't see that being a possibility in AoC world because of the vast array of choices.  And not every MMO caves to that kind of thing, i.e., RIFT still has its Soul Tree concepts and different Souls with various capabilities. 

    I went back last summer to play WoW after not playing for 10 years.  I was astonished at how simplified it is.  My old 65ish level characters were all turned into "oh! you are level 65, well here are your 7 abilities for your level.  Enjoy!" and every single character was exactly the same.  Every Hunter in the game is a mirror, with maybe different gear.  I am glad I didn't pay for that week, it was just a trial.  I pre-ordered the Collector's edition for WoW and played on day 1 too.  Just shake my head at what all they've done to it.  But, time can be a factor I guess.
  • Kratz said:
    It's funny how many in the profession are trying to discredit Intrepid, and specifically Steven for his lack of experience as a Lead Designer and MMO developer, but it's for that very reason that many of us are here. Who better to lead a soccer team than a person who played it to the highest level domestically and internationally? This is what Steven is to MMOs in terms of experience so I look forward to seeing where he takes us.
    I saw the link to AoC KS in another game's forums I was reading, (Maybe ESO?) and I watched the initial video about the game that Steven talked at length in.  His charisma was a substantial factor in my wanting to support the game.  The biggest draw was the "you the player will truly be able to change the world" because of how it will all work out.  Add to that his attitude of "I'm dropping millions of my own money into this, but you can support it" as significant as well.  I also did research Steven and learn about what he's done in the past, his net worth, and his business sense.  I started out with a lower contribution, but raised it after a couple of discussion feeds and that "lifetime sub" option.

    I think there have been too many games with promising ideas that were "different" than the status quo which failed miserably over the years.  That, I believe, causes many to immediately discount anyone trying to do something "different" and create a game with new concepts and a new way of doing things.  I've watched a few of the YouTube videos and there are concerns, but some that are just flat out, "Nah, it sucks and it'll fail miserably" who don't want anything to do with it because they can't do comparisons of it to other games.  Nor can they be optimistic about a new game that isn't being done by the same companies that have done games for years n' years.

    The only thing that is tough to swallow is the amount of time we will have to wait to play.  I'd like to think "Alpha" will start earlier next year than "December", but we shall see.
Sign In or Register to comment.