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Easy solution for the June backer reward problem.

Hello Intrepid, hello community,

I started a thread about that it's kinda unfair that some people just didn't have the chance to back during the KS campaign, because there was no Paypal option and some debit cards from european banks are not accepted by KS. I was one of those cases who followed the project right from the start, also tried to ask for Paypal option, but didnt get the chance until the end of the campaign. Personally for me, I like to support games early. But since there is a high risk that a project will not be finished or will change over the time in a direction which is displeasing, I at least want to be rewarded for taking that risk with the pledge rewards, especially the cosmetic stuff. Yes, it is really important to me and many others and that's why I put some effort into my writings.

But now comes the problem: You can't offer the exact same KS-exclusive rewards to the june backers without breaking KS rules. I'm aware of that. But here comes the point: The KS rules say that you can't offer the SAME KS-exclusive items. So there IS a way to solve this problem: How about you offer the same cosmetics, but just change their ingame name or item description? Something like "Horns of evil - KS backer" and "Horns of evil - June backer". This way, it IS a different item, but with the same look

Ofc this doesn't mean you should put this in the main shop later with just a different name. These cosmetic items SHOULD be exclusive for those who took the risk and pledged for the game that isnt finished. But at least you would give June backers the chance to get these visual items without breaking KS rules. 

What do you guys think about this solution? Do you think it is fair? Or not? And if you have an opinion, why do you think it isn't fair? At least the name of the item would show that you are a KS backer, still making it exclusive to KS backers only, but visual wise June backers would get the same.
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Comments

  • I mean, let's be honest here. Do we really need another thread about this?

    If you feel 100% we do, then by all means, but it seems these threads just stir up the bitterness and animosity. And that makes me sad.

    To answer your question though, I feel No, let KS exclusive be what they were advertised. Exclusive.
  • Hmmm... I think that you are skirting the KS contract in a way that might just get Intrepid into very difficult circumstances if adopted. Workarounds/endarounds like this are usually pretty frowned on by ANY law system. I'm no expert in the field though. <shrug>
  • Karthos said:
    I mean, let's be honest here. Do we really need another thread about this?

    If you feel 100% we do, then by all means, but it seems these threads just stir up the bitterness and animosity. And that makes me sad.

    To answer your question though, I feel No, let KS exclusive be what they were advertised. Exclusive.
    They would still be exclusive, but only in the description (it will clearly say it is an item for a KS or June backer) and not visual wise. Don't see a big problem with that and they wouldn't break any rules at all. I opened another thread because this is my last attempt to confront this problem (at least it is one for me) with a creative solution for intrepid, so that they dont have to break any rules at all.
  • Prepare for the people who'll come to tell you it's called a "Kickstarter-EXCLUSIVE", not a "Kickstarter exclusive-but can be bought later as well".

    Personally if the renaming works out with the rules set in place, I don't really mind. I've been in the same position as you were before as well, felt pretty salty also. Though I doubt that's how it works, if its the same product and just a different name, it's still the same. 

    But in order to avoid the problem all together they should've just not have named the items kickstarter exclusive and told people there will be an different payment option after. 

    But yea as karthos said, keep it exclusive as advertised. 
  • Hmmm... I think that you are skirting the KS contract in a way that might just get Intrepid into very difficult circumstances if adopted. Workarounds/endarounds like this are usually pretty frowned on by ANY law system. I'm no expert in the field though. <shrug>
    There is a clear definition when it come to exclusivety. It means the exact offered item must stay exclusive. But an item in a game is not just defined by its look, but also by its description. If you change that, the item must have it's own item slot in the list of all items. Visual-wise it would be a copy, but description-wise it is something different, making it a different item and therefore KS backers would get their own exclusive item and June backers too, but in the end both had the chance to get the same cosmetic stuff.
  • I will keep my reply short and sweet.
    • Cosmetics are awesome to some players, I myself like them.
    • I would like to see "different" cosmetics added to the website funding this month.
    • I do not mind if the website funded items do not automatically get given to Kickstarter backers.
    It's okay if the cosmetics were similar to those on Kickstarter.
    I am a Kickstarter backer and would happily donate a dollar via this website to gain the rewards here too.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    It's unfortunate, by whatever circumstances, you could not use the required payment method to pay. But that's what KS was. Those who were able to support the product did, and those who could not now get another chance to support the product but with different prizes. 

    This may not be what you want to hear, but it should not be Intrepid's responsibility nor KS to cater to those who do not have the means to support at the time of the campaign. Just be happy that they are actually extending crowdfunding through June with alternative payment methods.
  • Karthos said:
    I mean, let's be honest here. Do we really need another thread about this?

    If you feel 100% we do, then by all means, but it seems these threads just stir up the bitterness and animosity. And that makes me sad.

    To answer your question though, I feel No, let KS exclusive be what they were advertised. Exclusive.

    I have to agree with this.  And yes this subject is getting old.  There are many reasons people could not meet the KS deadline.  Some where uncontrollable due to lack of funds or time.  That's life.  It happens to the best of us. Sorry if it effected some here but in actuality there is nothing we can do at this time.

    Intrepid is not out to deliberately hurt people but need to try to make things fair for everyone and they are going to be cursed by some and worshiped by others for their endeavor.


    Pull up a chair and have some ale. Chill out and enjoy the party!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    It's unfortunate, by whatever circumstances, you could not use the required payment method to pay. But that's what KS was. Those who were able to support the product did, and those who could not now get another chance to support the product but with different prizes. 

    This may not be what you want to hear, but it should not be Intrepid's responsibility nor KS to cater to those who do not have the means to support at the time of the campaign. Just be happy that they are actually extending crowdfunding through June with alternative payment methods.
    Don't want to bring up the same arguments again, why I shouldn't be happy for this "chance". Just let me say there are good reasons that it is saddening that some of us didnt get the option, even if there would have been possibilities.

    My question to you is however: Is there any argument against my solution in your opinion? KS backers would get their KS exclusive items, June backers would get theirs too, but both get the same visual items. It wouldnt be much effort for Intrepid and everyone could be happy without breaking any rules at all.


    I have to agree with this.  And yes this subject is getting old.  There are many reasons people could not meet the KS deadline.  Some where uncontrollable due to lack of funds or time.  That's life.  It happens to the best of us. Sorry if it effected some here but in actuality there is nothing we can do at this time.

    Intrepid is not out to deliberately hurt people but need to try to make things fair for everyone and they are going to be cursed by some and worshiped by others for their endeavor.


    Pull up a chair and have some ale. Chill out and enjoy the party!
    And that's exactly why I made this last thread. It would be an option which wouldn't put Intrepid at risk to break any rules, it would help people alot who couldn't back during the KS campaign, it would be fair for everyone and KS backers would still have KS exclusive items, just not visual-wise. If Intrepid would use this solution, I think it would solve multiple problems at once and could stop those threads and complains in the future, at least if Intrepid decides to consider this solution. 
  • You will be able to give money to Ashes of Creation this month via alternative payment methods and if you only adjusted your idea to try and get different cosmetic items added to this months website funding it would be fine.

    The idea of slightly tweaking the Kickstarter exclusive items is legally dubious. Any idea which leaves Ashes of Creation possibly liable for lawsuits should never be allowed to happen.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Read op incorrectly, 
  • I have trouble believing that just changing the name of the items is going to be good enough. Nor changing the description. If the item is the exact same item, it is the same item.

    I could be wrong and am not against it happening if I am.


  • I didn't think that they were suggesting anything like the original items. Completely new, completely different. :)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    No wait, I'm wrong, darn it. No we can't do that, changing to disagree, sorry Ace

    I hate my brain, sorry everyone. Sorry @Kratz
  • Megs said:
    I didn't think that they were suggesting anything like the original items. Completely new, completely different. :)

    Ah see, that's what I thought he/she did mean.
  • Some people just want to be in on all of the possible items that are exclusive and they enjoy having them for the prestige or the satisfaction the collectors feel or whatever. There is nothing wrong with that. I get  that.

    The word "exclusive" is a trigger word for people that have such inclinations. KS knows about trigger words and they regulate them. Projects-in-Making know about these trigger words too and use them to their benefit. Not saying that is bad.

    I do wonder though if a game just offered these bonuses as "will only be available through the cash shop" instead of "exclusive" how much less they might get in KS pledges?

  • I do not believe it is a good idea to just change the name. If the intent is to give non KS backers, KS rewards by means of a loophole, I cannot agree with that. For me, it is really on the borderline of deception. 

    I respect your thought process, and I am truly sorry you were unable to be a KS backer because of reasons outside of your control. I really hope you are able to make peace with the outcome, and more importantly, with yourself.

    Best wishes.
  • @Ace_Nightfire the only real way they could offer the KS exclusive to June backers (which by the way I sincerely hope they dont) would have to be a reskin. A simple color change and the "exclusive" is no longer binding. But that's a shady way to do business. If the kick starter had run longer I would have pledged a lot more. It was a limited time thing and not everyone will get it. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    Welphgryn said:
     I really hope you are able to make peace with the outcome, and more importantly, with yourself.
    Well, in the end it would mean I will probably not back the project and as a result not play the game at all in the end. First of all I dont want to finance new items which will also be offered for free to KS backers (but not even getting the KS items themselves) and secondly, like I already said, the cosmetics are important to me and I would like to have a chance to get the KS items, since Intreprid could have offered alternative methods right from the start, but didn't, sadly. I think it's the responsibility of the developer to plan/consider those things before starting a campaign. If it isn't possible at all, even with the solution I have suggested, I will just probably play other games and live with that. Like you said, that would be my way to make peace with the outcome.
  • Welphgryn said:
     I really hope you are able to make peace with the outcome, and more importantly, with yourself.
    Well, in the end it would mean I will probably not back the project. First of all I dont want to finance new items which will also be offered for free to KS backers and secondly, like I already said, the cosmetics are important to me and I would like to have a chance to get the KS items. If it isn't possible at all, even with the solution I have suggested, I will just probably play other games and live with that. Like you said, that would be my way to make peace with the outcome.
    I understand. 
  • For the matter of cosmetics, would people feel okay if there is a clear visible different between the June backer's exclusive skins and the Kickstarter exclusive skins?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited June 2017
    For the matter of cosmetics, would people feel okay if there is a clear visible different between the June backer's exclusive skins and the Kickstarter exclusive skins?

    Sure thing, I'd even go as far as to say that Ace_Nightfire can have mine if that's all that's stopping him enjoying the game, because it's certainly got nothing to do with why I pledged support to the game.

    EDIT: assuming they'll be tradeable ofc. :)

  • Kratz i don't think they will. Probably account bound and character linked but tradable on account type deal. And ace as far as alternative payments go you could have purchased a prepaid card and pledged that way. It says right on the kickstarter FAQ that's an acceptable form of payment. 
  •  I will just probably play other games and live with that. Like you said, that would be my way to make peace with the outcome.
    aww, get back in here and give me a hug.
    :(
    Don't give up on ashes because of a fluke, they really want everybody to be happy here. 
    So you may miss a few cosmetics, but you still have the chance to be here right at the outset with more exclusives that won't be available come launch. Two years from now and you won't be missing them.

    Life sucks sometimes, personally I have a chronic disease that had left me with the body of a seventy year old and a damaged brain, I would give up all my wonderful planned pledge cosmetics for health.
    Just remember,
    1: first world problem
    2: cutting off your nose to spite your face always ends in regret.

    Join us here, we'd love to have you x
  • Weolian said:
    I will keep my reply short and sweet.
    • Cosmetics are awesome to some players, I myself like them.
    • I would like to see "different" cosmetics added to the website funding this month.
    • I do not mind if the website funded items do not automatically get given to Kickstarter backers.
    It's okay if the cosmetics were similar to those on Kickstarter.
    I am a Kickstarter backer and would happily donate a dollar via this website to gain the rewards here too.


    My thoughts on the matter are very similar.  I was thinking if they created new items for the June backers, it would solve the issue.  It would, however, create more work for Intrepid that isn't in the scope of their existing plan.  It could lead to the dreaded scope creep.  Nobody wants that.
  • Megs said:
     I will just probably play other games and live with that. Like you said, that would be my way to make peace with the outcome.
    aww, get back in here and give me a hug.
    :(
    Don't give up on ashes because of a fluke, they really want everybody to be happy here. 
    So you may miss a few cosmetics, but you still have the chance to be here right at the outset with more exclusives that won't be available come launch. Two years from now and you won't be missing them.

    Life sucks sometimes, personally I have a chronic disease that had left me with the body of a seventy year old and a damaged brain, I would give up all my wonderful planned pledge cosmetics for health.
    Just remember,
    1: first world problem
    2: cutting off your nose to spite your face always ends in regret.

    Join us here, we'd love to have you x


    @Ace_Nightfire read what Megs wrote there. Don't leave a possibly great game because you can't get a few pairs of "exclusive" pants and shirts or a Dandy Horse skin. There will be lots of similar stuff in the cash shop.

    Give it a week to think about. Rash decisions are... rash and usually regrettable.

  • It's unfortunate, by whatever circumstances, you could not use the required payment method to pay. But that's what KS was. Those who were able to support the product did, and those who could not now get another chance to support the product but with different prizes. 

    This may not be what you want to hear, but it should not be Intrepid's responsibility nor KS to cater to those who do not have the means to support at the time of the campaign. Just be happy that they are actually extending crowdfunding through June with alternative payment methods.

    I have also replied to his other thread. If you want a more indepth writing of my viewpoint, I urge you to read it there.

    In short I disagree, because IS has stated in their KS-FAQ they would provide other payment options and thus you can scrutinize them at least for bad communication and marketing.

    Megs said:
    I'm not sure that folks are stopping to read what you're suggesting properly, because it's a great solution, although I'd not be surprised if they're thinking of stuff like this already

    If I understand right:
     this will have nothing to do with kickstand and so we'll not be skirting any legal issues.

    This will give later backers/those unable to support ks, alternative 'exclusive' rewards for still being early bird backers.

    And as intrepid has already said that kick start supporters will also get June's rewards too, it's a win win all around.

    I happen to think you're addressing it calmly and politely so folks before you dismiss her/him/them/it... listen.

    I wholeheartedly disagree. It would cheapen every single pledge made on KS and put IS into a dubious situation, legally speaking. It is pretty much the same as selling a Adidos shirt, it is pretty much the same with a slight change, mocking the original. This "solution" ridicules backers and gives no reason to properly back this during June. The idea is simply bad.
  • I understand it upsets you that you are unable to get the "cosmetics" you so desired by not being able to meet the dead line.  That's unfortunate and I'm sorry.
    What I don't understand is, why would you even want to back a game if it is only the cosmetics that make or break it for you?  Cosmetics do not make the game.

    Most people are backing this game because we believe in the what it hopes to offer us in play.  The cosmetics are only an added perk.  Cosmetics are easily covered and changed where as a really good game is near impossible to find.

    I really hope you have a change of heart.  If not am sorry for what you may ultimately lose out on.

  • I wholeheartedly disagree. It would cheapen every single pledge made on KS and put IS into a dubious situation, legally speaking. It is pretty much the same as selling a Adidos shirt, it is pretty much the same with a slight change, mocking the original. This "solution" ridicules backers and gives no reason to properly back this during June. The idea is simply bad.
    Yup, as I said I got that wrong and misunderstood what ace was asking for, sorry for any misunderstanding
  • Megs said:

    I wholeheartedly disagree. It would cheapen every single pledge made on KS and put IS into a dubious situation, legally speaking. It is pretty much the same as selling a Adidos shirt, it is pretty much the same with a slight change, mocking the original. This "solution" ridicules backers and gives no reason to properly back this during June. The idea is simply bad.
    Yup, as I said I got that wrong and misunderstood what ace was asking for, sorry for any misunderstanding

    Oh, I am really sorry, I did not see your other replies, where you already rectified what you said. I am glad that we agree though, that is something to cherish.

    Thank you very much for clariying once more, so I dont misunderstand you!
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