So you don't think a game can be made where lower levels can contribute meaningfully to a city defence through player combat?
Yes but more in a pve/raid way. PvP within their own level range would have a positive effect as well but would not carry the weight that higher level pvp will.
Thanks for the clarification.
Yeah, I totally agree that they probably won't (and should not) carry the weight of a high leveled character and I'm aware that this is common in a lot of other MMOs. I'll still personally be pushing for level cap (as I'm sure you and many others will) because of the advantage I think it'll bring.
Due to the nature of the Ashes and it's node system, it would be nice if they could be a factor in PvP that'll allow everyone to partake in. Otherwise this might lead to a rush to max level situation in order to ensure the defence of your node type mentality or players who like PvP combat only feeling engaged in node defence when they've spent a significant amount of time in PvE attaining the level cap.
As a player I'll also feel a sense of satisfaction at having outfight/outplay a party of lower leveled highwaymen who're trying to rob lone adventurers/travellers.
I expect a level 1 Banana to still trip a level 100.
I also expect reasonable level gaps to allow for competition. Really if it's skill based and your not good enough to touch your opponent even once well... Level shouldn't matter to much in that scenario lol. Assuming they can do decent damage that is. For those of you who have played Dark souls... for all it's flaws with the PvP system it still does that to a decent level.
If the networking wasn't horrible (like Ashes will most likely have good network systems in place) then skill should be leagues above gear in general. Do I want some level 50 killing a level 100? No not really unless the level 100 is an idiot that can barely use a single skill. Low low loooow odds I know.
Now back to Dark souls. Say for instance I'm level 150 and my opponent is level 50. I can still lose even for all my power. If I make repeated stupid mistakes odds are pretty good that I'll pay for it in blood. Again I'm not saying this should be common or easy to do but a skill factor of 50 vs. 100 should function just as well as a gear/level factor of 50 vs.100.
Basically evening out the fight a bit due to player skill being so far split and gear+levels. This usually works really well in a PvP oriented fast paced game baring infinity heals or no way to counter them.
To summarize: Should it be even for 2 level 50s to fight a 100? No. Should it be impossible? No Should that level 1 banana trip the level 100? Yes. Yes it should.
Lets put a visual to it, the Squirrel is the level 100 in this conversation, and for fun, the smart car is a whole guild of level 50's combined effort.
Lets put a visual to it, the Squirrel is the level 100 in this conversation, and for fun, the smart car is a whole guild of level 50's combined effort.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
That squirrel has some awesome mitigation, what did it have equipped?
I have no issue with 1 or 2 players taking on 100 players and winning, IF it is skill based!
1-3 shot kill capability -> no
Cap number of players for AoE damage -> no
Line of Site -> yes
Range limits -> yes
Elevation advantage for range -> yes
I remember back in the day, watching a video of a skillful solo L2 player take out multiple groups of players all coming at him, picking them off one by one. Not by being over powered, but by careful use of range, terrain and tactics.
The more I play PvP MMOs, the more I feel that gear and level should matter very little. In any game with players competing against other players, if gear and level are the end all be all -- if there is a huge gap -- it becomes impossible for someone to pick up the game after release and be competitive without significant grinding. Why is significant grinding bad? PvP players want to fight other players, not grind forever to be competitive.
The more I play MMOs generally, as well, the more I feel that developers usually do a pretty bad job at handling the PvP in an MMO that also includes PvE. It's gotten so I feel that an MMO needs to be one or the other - it's really hard to be good as both a PvE and PvP MMO, in part because of the level balancing and gearflation issues that this thread is touching upon.
For Ashes, which will offer both PvE and PvP content, it will be interesting to see how they balance it out. I'm a big PvPer myself, so I'm holding out more hope for Crowfall and Camelot Unchained, as they are both PvP-centric. Ashes looks to be further along in development, though, so it may release first and capture some of the PvP crowd if it can offer a good balance, but it's pretty hard to tell at this point.
If the levels will scale exponential, then even two lvl 80 not going to have chance. If it would scale linearly, then they would have chance, but usually noone uses linear lvl scaling.
If the levels will scale exponential, then even two lvl 80 not going to have chance. If it would scale linearly, then they would have chance, but usually noone uses linear lvl scaling.
Yep, that's true. But the choice of type of progression will depend on the developer's goal for the players.
Want people to level up to max before really PvPing? Go exponential and squeeze all the power into the upper levels (lowbies will feel like they can't contribute much)
Want the game to be a little more balanced? Have linear progression with small jumps (but progression via base damage/hp increase won't feel particularly significant)
Want to get new characters up to PVP parity as soon as possible? Use a logarithmic curve and make players improve super fast early and then minor improvements later. (late game progression won't feel very significant)
So it's less of a "no one uses it any more" and more of a "what kind of behaviour will they want their players to have" type idea.
You guys have to take into account and remember that as you go up in levels, it takes more xp and longer grinding to level. So going from level 49->level 50 =/= going from level 99->level 100...not even close. Therefore, it shouldn't be fair for 2 level 50's to beat a level 100, nor should it be fair for even 3v1.
The amount of time and effort to level, should reflect on the advantage the level 100 player has.
You guys have to take into account and remember that as you go up in levels, it takes more xp and longer grinding to level. So going from level 49->level 50 =/= going from level 99->level 100...not even close. Therefore, it shouldn't be fair for 2 level 50's to beat a level 100, nor should it be fair for even 3v1.
The amount of time and effort to level, should reflect on the advantage the level 100 player has.
It takes more time if the game designed with exponential leveling. In linear reaching lvl 100 takes twice as much time as reaching lvl 50.
I have to disagree, if I'm level 100, there's no way in a hell a level 50 should be able to touch me. I should be able to bend them over and smack their rear end like a young child that stepped outta line.
It's not so much about staying the same strength as obtaining a wide array of abilities. Such that player characters still remain relatively human and mortal rather than becoming godlike and impervious
Legendary Knights can still be felled by a well-timed blow from a lowly squire. Rather than it becoming nigh impossible to ever land a hit at all.
It's more about progressing like Batman or Green Arrow than like Superman or Wonder Woman.
I don't know why people keep discussing combat at Level 100 if it's been confirmed that level cap is 50. But, keep in mind, again, that Ashes has a huge focus on horizontal progression. Especially via acquiring augments - different abilities rather than just more powerful abilities.
One person shouldn't be able to solo a dragon. Best when the gaps in power among the races are kept comparatively low - even between Level 1 and max level.
It's not so much about staying the same strength as obtaining a wide array of abilities. Such that player characters still remain relatively human and mortal rather than becoming godlike and impervious
Legendary Knights can still be felled by a well-timed blow from a lowly squire. Rather than it becoming nigh impossible to ever land a hit at all.
It's more about progressing like Batman or Green Arrow than like Superman or Wonder Woman.
I don't know why people keep discussing combat at Level 100 if it's been confirmed that level cap is 50. But, keep in mind, again, that Ashes has a huge focus on horizontal progression. Especially via acquiring augments - different abilities rather than just more powerful abilities.
One person shouldn't be able to solo a dragon. Best when the gaps in power among the races are kept comparatively low - even between Level 1 and max level.
Nobody said a single person should be able to solo. It's best when there is a significant difference between top and bottom level. We will ignore the level 100. It will be a pickup game and you just made it so I can pk players with a brand new account that I didn't have to level up. You see, the system will be flawed and it WILL be abused. Nobody's main will ever go red because we know we can quickly make a new character and pk people with a level 1. Regardless if they are level 50 or not
This is what is known as the tyranny of numbers my friend. The British used it to beat the French in the Napoleonic Wars and it applies to MMOs just the same. Overwhelming numbers does little to help if those numbers lack the ability to act to the same potential.
This is what is known as the tyranny of numbers by friend. The British used it to beat the French in the Napoleonic Wars and it applies to MMOs just the same. overwhelming numbers does little to help if those numbers lack the ability to act to the same potential.
Would you apply it to other historical events where an army used it's numbers like sargon? Napoleon? Alexander? CAESER! GHENGHIS KHAN!?
I agree with you, This can be applied to MMOs such as the real world. Therefor I would prefer it's not possible for a Roman or Mongol Empire to be created in any server
It's not so much about staying the same strength as obtaining a wide array of abilities. Such that player characters still remain relatively human and mortal rather than becoming godlike and impervious
Legendary Knights can still be felled by a well-timed blow from a lowly squire. Rather than it becoming nigh impossible to ever land a hit at all.
It's more about progressing like Batman or Green Arrow than like Superman or Wonder Woman.
I don't know why people keep discussing combat at Level 100 if it's been confirmed that level cap is 50. But, keep in mind, again, that Ashes has a huge focus on horizontal progression. Especially via acquiring augments - different abilities rather than just more powerful abilities.
One person shouldn't be able to solo a dragon. Best when the gaps in power among the races are kept comparatively low - even between Level 1 and max level.
Nobody said a single person should be able to solo. It's best when there is a significant difference between top and bottom level. We will ignore the level 100. It will be a pickup game and you just made it so I can pk players with a brand new account that I didn't have to level up. You see, the system will be flawed and it WILL be abused. Nobody's main will ever go red because we know we can quickly make a new character and pk people with a level 1. Regardless if they are level 50 or not
Nobody said so. I'm raising the point that that is basically what happens once levels reach 100. Typically that happens after several expansions where the vanilla/original cap was 50-60. Making it such that Level 100s can indeed solo the Level 50-60 bosses (dragons) from the vanilla/original endgame.
Level 100 is astronomically high. Even Level 50 is probably too high. Best to go with shallow vertical progression with wide horizontal progression. So that boss fights are raid v raid than raid v epic boss.
Lineage 2 countered this very nicely and a raid that was outside of your level would put you into a long paralyzed state where you couldn't move or do anything at all. Those raids simply were not for your level
Not to mention the way the gaps in levels were made the xp gain from the raid wouldn't have been worth it anyway.
One level 100 would beat a field full of level 50's, and that's it's how it should be. That large of a gap is like an "end game" player going back to the starter zone and killing mobs.
I would actually disagree in this.
I distinctively recall playing an MMO where a low-Level could potentially defeat a High-Level.
And yes, that DOES include One-Shotting a a High Level by using a Defensive Skill. And i liked it - this at least gave the Low-level a chance to defend themselves; this caused the High Level to be hesistant on which Ability to use - involved tactics
( because the MMO was Open-World and anyone could be attacked at anytime ... except towns )
My point is, in MMOs, when a player has achieved the Highest-Level, they think their the "Tough-sh!t" / the " Bee-knees ". But thats solely because of level. And they usually can just handle any kind of Quests with little to no ease. Which is why 'm glad that Skill can actually make a difference ; I'm glad that other Attributes & Variables can determine the Winner in Open-World PvP - I'm glad that Skill vs Gear/Level is a thing
(and vice versa / any other Variants )
And I hope Players can begin to see this at Beginning-to-Mid Level.
@Eragale, if this is possible you are allowing players to quickly make an alt character and spend little to no time leveling them so they can use them as their "perma red" This will cause nobody's main character to have to have corruption if the player wants to kill someone without them fighting back
Comments
fighting someone twice their level? Definitely not
Yeah, I totally agree that they probably won't (and should not) carry the weight of a high leveled character and I'm aware that this is common in a lot of other MMOs. I'll still personally be pushing for level cap (as I'm sure you and many others will) because of the advantage I think it'll bring.
Due to the nature of the Ashes and it's node system, it would be nice if they could be a factor in PvP that'll allow everyone to partake in. Otherwise this might lead to a rush to max level situation in order to ensure the defence of your node type mentality or players who like PvP combat only feeling engaged in node defence when they've spent a significant amount of time in PvE attaining the level cap.
As a player I'll also feel a sense of satisfaction at having outfight/outplay a party of lower leveled highwaymen who're trying to rob lone adventurers/travellers.
I also expect reasonable level gaps to allow for competition. Really if it's skill based and your not good enough to touch your opponent even once well... Level shouldn't matter to much in that scenario lol. Assuming they can do decent damage that is. For those of you who have played Dark souls... for all it's flaws with the PvP system it still does that to a decent level.
If the networking wasn't horrible (like Ashes will most likely have good network systems in place) then skill should be leagues above gear in general. Do I want some level 50 killing a level 100? No not really unless the level 100 is an idiot that can barely use a single skill. Low low loooow odds I know.
Now back to Dark souls. Say for instance I'm level 150 and my opponent is level 50. I can still lose even for all my power. If I make repeated stupid mistakes odds are pretty good that I'll pay for it in blood. Again I'm not saying this should be common or easy to do but a skill factor of 50 vs. 100 should function just as well as a gear/level factor of 50 vs.100.
Basically evening out the fight a bit due to player skill being so far split and gear+levels. This usually works really well in a PvP oriented fast paced game baring infinity heals or no way to counter them.
To summarize: Should it be even for 2 level 50s to fight a 100? No.
Should it be impossible? No
Should that level 1 banana trip the level 100? Yes. Yes it should.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
That squirrel has some awesome mitigation, what did it have equipped?
- 1-3 shot kill capability -> no
- Cap number of players for AoE damage -> no
- Line of Site -> yes
- Range limits -> yes
- Elevation advantage for range -> yes
I remember back in the day, watching a video of a skillful solo L2 player take out multiple groups of players all coming at him, picking them off one by one. Not by being over powered, but by careful use of range, terrain and tactics.If PvP can replicate that, awesome!
The more I play MMOs generally, as well, the more I feel that developers usually do a pretty bad job at handling the PvP in an MMO that also includes PvE. It's gotten so I feel that an MMO needs to be one or the other - it's really hard to be good as both a PvE and PvP MMO, in part because of the level balancing and gearflation issues that this thread is touching upon.
For Ashes, which will offer both PvE and PvP content, it will be interesting to see how they balance it out. I'm a big PvPer myself, so I'm holding out more hope for Crowfall and Camelot Unchained, as they are both PvP-centric. Ashes looks to be further along in development, though, so it may release first and capture some of the PvP crowd if it can offer a good balance, but it's pretty hard to tell at this point.
If it would scale linearly, then they would have chance, but usually noone uses linear lvl scaling.
Yep, that's true. But the choice of type of progression will depend on the developer's goal for the players.
Want people to level up to max before really PvPing? Go exponential and squeeze all the power into the upper levels (lowbies will feel like they can't contribute much)
Want the game to be a little more balanced? Have linear progression with small jumps (but progression via base damage/hp increase won't feel particularly significant)
Want to get new characters up to PVP parity as soon as possible? Use a logarithmic curve and make players improve super fast early and then minor improvements later. (late game progression won't feel very significant)
So it's less of a "no one uses it any more" and more of a "what kind of behaviour will they want their players to have" type idea.
The amount of time and effort to level, should reflect on the advantage the level 100 player has.
It takes more time if the game designed with exponential leveling. In linear reaching lvl 100 takes twice as much time as reaching lvl 50.
Such that player characters still remain relatively human and mortal rather than becoming godlike and impervious
Legendary Knights can still be felled by a well-timed blow from a lowly squire.
Rather than it becoming nigh impossible to ever land a hit at all.
It's more about progressing like Batman or Green Arrow than like Superman or Wonder Woman.
I don't know why people keep discussing combat at Level 100 if it's been confirmed that level cap is 50.
But, keep in mind, again, that Ashes has a huge focus on horizontal progression.
Especially via acquiring augments - different abilities rather than just more powerful abilities.
One person shouldn't be able to solo a dragon.
Best when the gaps in power among the races are kept comparatively low - even between Level 1 and max level.
Nobody said a single person should be able to solo. It's best when there is a significant difference between top and bottom level. We will ignore the level 100. It will be a pickup game and you just made it so I can pk players with a brand new account that I didn't have to level up. You see, the system will be flawed and it WILL be abused. Nobody's main will ever go red because we know we can quickly make a new character and pk people with a level 1. Regardless if they are level 50 or not
I agree with you, This can be applied to MMOs such as the real world. Therefor I would prefer it's not possible for a Roman or Mongol Empire to be created in any server
Level alone should not be determinate of the pvp outcome!
How to play the game and use it well would be my preferred focus than just levels.
Nothing worse in prior games to come across a powerleveled character that has no idea how to play! Undeserving of the status the level befits!
Confirmation? No.
But the developers have mentioned that the number their thinking of is around 50.
Until we have a newer dev quote that says otherwise.
Nobody said so.
I'm raising the point that that is basically what happens once levels reach 100. Typically that happens after several expansions where the vanilla/original cap was 50-60.
Making it such that Level 100s can indeed solo the Level 50-60 bosses (dragons) from the vanilla/original endgame.
Level 100 is astronomically high.
Even Level 50 is probably too high.
Best to go with shallow vertical progression with wide horizontal progression.
So that boss fights are raid v raid than raid v epic boss.
Not to mention the way the gaps in levels were made the xp gain from the raid wouldn't have been worth it anyway.
I distinctively recall playing an MMO where a low-Level could potentially defeat a High-Level.
And yes, that DOES include One-Shotting a a High Level by using a Defensive Skill. And i liked it - this at least gave the Low-level a chance to defend themselves; this caused the High Level to be hesistant on which Ability to use - involved tactics
( because the MMO was Open-World and anyone could be attacked at anytime ... except towns )
My point is, in MMOs, when a player has achieved the Highest-Level, they think their the "Tough-sh!t" / the " Bee-knees ". But thats solely because of level. And they usually can just handle any kind of Quests with little to no ease. Which is why 'm glad that Skill can actually make a difference ; I'm glad that other Attributes & Variables can determine the Winner in Open-World PvP - I'm glad that Skill vs Gear/Level is a thing
(and vice versa / any other Variants )
And I hope Players can begin to see this at Beginning-to-Mid Level.
There WILL be chaos in this situation