@Eragale, if this is possible you are allowing players to quickly make an alt character and spend little to no time leveling them so they can use them as their "perma red" This will cause nobody's main character to have to have corruption if the player wants to kill someone without them fighting back
There WILL be chaos in this situation
You may want to be more specific. Because I don't see how.
It's already easy enough to do this by leveling an alt to 10 and ganking lowbies. You just make that your red, zombie alt.
If it easy for lowbies to gank high levs, there will be that much more ganking. And it won't even take that much to level to a point where you can gank folks.
For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... I am filled with corruption. I take my main to the area and kill my alt so i retain all drops and remove his corruption by doing so. I now still have my alt with no corruption and wait for you to return.
I define this as causing chaos on the server. It will be much more difficult if i have to use my higher main to kill your main.
In fact, this will eliminate any reasoning for the corruption system to have been created in the first place and just made that entire system null and void
The ability in the MMO i played, was basically a Counter Ability. to avoid it, you just simply wait for the " Ability's Duration to end "
but you choose what you did next wisely. Because it only Countered Melee Hits. And NOT Long-Range Hits
(i.e. Arrow or Magic hits ... and I guess Spells with Word-Enchantments too since that seems to Be a Bard Play-Style based on Reading the KickStarter Bard info.
Update: Lets presume its a Level 25 Countered a Level 85 .If you get Countered, the Damage will be based on the Difference Between the Level-gap. And a Percentage of that Difference will be taken out of the Countered-Player
Soo ... if its a Level 1 confronted by a Level 100 ... and that Character does a Melee Hit ... Less than 5% HP will remain . However, that doesn't mean that same Level 1 can still inflict damage onto the Level 100 due to obvious difference in Gear. Which would result in the Level 1 doing ... like 0.021 Damage
( the entirety of this Situation would be based on Imaginative Numbers - so Damage Calc with imaginary numbers ... not worth going any furtther. ) ( Referencing @AutumnWillow Statement btw )
" I'm sorry but I disagree. This example has been made with too much of a level gap for there to be any possibility for it to end any other way regardless of how they make the level differences. If the level 100 couldn't easily kill the other two than this game would collapse soon after people achieved higher levels "
" Heh. Just joining in even though it's pure speculation. Also the "disagree" statement made me laugh out loud (not insulting you but I genuinely found it quite amusing) a little since everything is speculation and we're disagreeing with each other's imagination. Hahah. "
@eragale and if you read my response it's going off of probabilities.... extremely high odds. Yes, i can't say "this will definitely happen" but we are talking about something that is inevitable because of the above reasons
For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... I am filled with corruption. I take my main to the area and kill my alt so i retain all drops and remove his corruption by doing so. I now still have my alt with no corruption and wait for you to return.
I define this as causing chaos on the server. It will be much more difficult if i have to use my higher main to kill your main.
In fact, this will eliminate any reasoning for the corruption system to have been created in the first place and just made that entire system null and void
I don't think anyone is making an argument for a low level to be on par with a high level. The high level player should have an advantage. You make an alt, you're lower leveled, possibly less well equipped, chances are you might not win. If the skill level of combatants is wide enough to overcome the level gap, then you might win. But if the difference in skill level of the combatants isn't high enough to overcome the advantage granted by the character level gap, you'll probably lose.
You'll probably need a small party of lower leveled gankers to attempt to gank a high level. And yes, that could be a possible problem, it might make people want to travel in pairs or groups to ensure their safety because of the possibility of highwaymen.
Travel could made safer by ensuring regular NPC guard patrols on main roads, allowing people to escape to safety quicker and forcing lower leveled gank crew to prowl the lesser patrolled routes.
If PK and ganking on alts might be an issue, perhaps corruption should affect the entire account instead of just the corrupted alt.
" For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... "
i wouldn't call that a Good Representation - you're insinuating that a the LvL 50 would Kill the LvL 100 so easily ? Why Would the Level 100 run ?
added something else to my Previous Post ( forgot to add it )
@eragale You just took a fraction of a sentence of my entire response that can be removed completely. In that case:
Use the same scenario and pretend no running away is involved. The much higher skilled should kill the not-so-skilled as per what you said. Even assuming these characters are only 10 levels difference. This will cause a huge problem with griefing and player killing.
yes, a player with a high level should be the "bad-ass" when fighting someone of significantly lower level. his skill will determine if he is actually a bad-ass when up against his own level
Honestly in all my PvP exprience. Gear has caused more of a problem than level gaps. Raid gear and epic gear specifically which is always harder to be obtained... meaning it's more likely for hardcore players to get them than the casuals. Levels will come regardless of your play style or time to play the game
Are we debating on the basis that the level cap is 100 right now?
On a related note then, on the assumption that the level 100 is the level cap, the pinnacle of everything you can possibly do to improve your character until an expansion or something:
At what level X, can two characters of level X defeat a character of level 2X? Assuming they are of the same skill level and their equipment is average for their level.
I assume that two level 1s should be able to beat one level 2? But at which point is it not feasible for the team of two to be able beat the solo side?
I don't think that there is a correct answer here. I just want to understand how you think power will scale by level. I think this is a more meaningful discussion that the original question.
For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... I am filled with corruption. I take my main to the area and kill my alt so i retain all drops and remove his corruption by doing so. I now still have my alt with no corruption and wait for you to return.
I define this as causing chaos on the server. It will be much more difficult if i have to use my higher main to kill your main.
In fact, this will eliminate any reasoning for the corruption system to have been created in the first place and just made that entire system null and void
I don't think anyone is making an argument for a low level to be on par with a high level. The high level player should have an advantage. You make an alt, you're lower leveled, possibly less well equipped, chances are you might not win. If the skill level of combatants is wide enough to overcome the level gap, then you might win. But if the difference in skill level of the combatants isn't high enough to overcome the advantage granted by the character level gap, you'll probably lose.
You'll probably need a small party of lower leveled gankers to attempt to gank a high level. And yes, that could be a possible problem, it might make people want to travel in pairs or groups to ensure their safety because of the possibility of highwaymen.
Travel could made safer by ensuring regular NPC guard patrols on main roads, allowing people to escape to safety quicker and forcing lower leveled gank crew to prowl the lesser patrolled routes.
If PK and ganking on alts might be an issue, perhaps corruption should affect the entire account instead of just the corrupted alt.
If i have a high level main it's easy to equip top gear with my alt no? Like I said, things will be manipulated to win. This is causing a massive loophole. Also if gear and skill are the deciding factors and not levels, a casual player will stand no chance due to rare items.
@AutumnWillow Eragale wrote: I distinctively recall playing an MMO where a low-Level could potentially defeat a High-Level. And yes, that DOES include One-Shotting a a High Level by using a Defensive Skill.
The low level doesn't have to be "on par" with the high level if it's possible for a low level to one-shot a high-level.
For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... I am filled with corruption. I take my main to the area and kill my alt so i retain all drops and remove his corruption by doing so. I now still have my alt with no corruption and wait for you to return.
I define this as causing chaos on the server. It will be much more difficult if i have to use my higher main to kill your main.
In fact, this will eliminate any reasoning for the corruption system to have been created in the first place and just made that entire system null and void
I don't think anyone is making an argument for a low level to be on par with a high level. The high level player should have an advantage. You make an alt, you're lower leveled, possibly less well equipped, chances are you might not win. If the skill level of combatants is wide enough to overcome the level gap, then you might win. But if the difference in skill level of the combatants isn't high enough to overcome the advantage granted by the character level gap, you'll probably lose.
You'll probably need a small party of lower leveled gankers to attempt to gank a high level. And yes, that could be a possible problem, it might make people want to travel in pairs or groups to ensure their safety because of the possibility of highwaymen.
Travel could made safer by ensuring regular NPC guard patrols on main roads, allowing people to escape to safety quicker and forcing lower leveled gank crew to prowl the lesser patrolled routes.
If PK and ganking on alts might be an issue, perhaps corruption should affect the entire account instead of just the corrupted alt.
If i have a high level main it's easy to equip top gear with my alt no? Like I said, things will be manipulated to win. This is causing a massive loophole. Also if gear and skill are the deciding factors and not levels, a casual player will stand no chance due to rare items.
Gearwise it would depend on how powerful lower level gear can get, and the gap between good low level gear and normal high level gear.
Would it help if I said, "I hope to see that player level is LESS of a deciding factor than it is in other games?" I'm totally fine with levels being the deciding factor in other games. But in ashes, meaningful conflict is on of the main pillars of the games and it doesn't make sense that if pillar can only be truly accessed at the level cap. Unlike other games, the PvP in ashes is supposed to have meaning.
If this game takes 500 game hours to reach level cap for example, it should be balanced to allow a wider range of of levels to engage each other in battle. If leveling is quick, then it's fine to have a wide gulf in power between high levels and low levels.
That statement would be very reasonable as long as a large gap such as given in the example would be too large of a gap for a comparison. I personally think about 10 levels difference should be a big advantage. 20 levels difference should be deciding a 1v1 fight
" Are we debating on the basis that the level cap is 100 right now?
On a related note then, on the assumption that the level 100 is the level cap, the pinnacle of everything you can possibly do to improve your character until an expansion or something:
At what level X, can two characters of level X defeat a character of level 2X? Assuming they are of the same skill level and their equipment is average for their level.
I assume that two level 1s should be able to beat one level 2? But at which point is it not feasible for the team of two to be able beat the solo side?
I don't think that there is a correct answer here. I just want to understand how you think power will scale by level. I think this is a more meaningful discussion that the original question. "
I personally wanted a Level cap of 150 - 300 ( you may have seen this posted differently on a few other threads )
I personally hoped for their to be different Kinds of EXP Gained - such as Ability Experience, Crafting / Artisan EXP, Mining EXP all of which function & (slowly)increases independently from one another.
Back to the point, I'm hoping Level should not directly determine the Player's Power / Strength . But Rather, indirectly ; I'm hoping it determines what that Player's ... " Overall ForeFront " by an insignificantly smalll margin / increment
( via Effectiveness-Output (DPS, Healer, Tank Role ), Chances of Being Elected via King/Queen / how much they contributed in creating the Node throughout the Stages until it gets to ... Stage 4 (?) ( Based on that Node's Function . )
( I.e. Military Node's King/Queen is based on Martial Prowess / The Strongest , while the Scientific Node's King/Queen is based on Voting )
In other words, once the " Node is at Stage 4, i anticipated anin-town Event to Occur" - Military Node will most likely host a Fighting- Tournament, Scientific Node will most likely host a Voting Pole, Economic Node will most likely host a ... " Who has the Most Money " Chart/Graph , and the Divine Node will most likely host ... a " Faith Gauge " , who has the highest " Faith " )
And since Factions, don't exist, anyone - from any Node - can participate ( unless they already have Node Citizenship from another Node ? )
In other words, I'd hope for the Player's Level would indirectly dictate that Player's "Activity-Eligibility " . Such as Zones that are not Off-Limits to Low-Levels. And Low-Level monsters should NOT be in Low-Level Zones, rather ... the Level-Difficulty of Monsters will scattered throughout the World. Encouraging Players to Explore.
But I'd hope for the Gearing in this MMO to break-away from the "common-trend" from newer-MMOs. The Gearing Progressing is usually Linear & gets boring quickly
In other words, I hope that Gearing would be Determined by Exploring the Open-World (via Mining, Crafting, Digging, Combining Crafting Materials (like Alchemy),
including the Loot-Drops within Open-World Areas & a instanced areas( maybe none ?) But these 2 not as Prominent.
Craft for a diverse & viable Gear Set ( not to say Crafting would be so Linear & Simple, but rather lots Variety - where they'll actually be an unfathomable amount of Crafting Material to be discovered. And each new discovered Crafting Material can be combined with Other-Crafting Material to create new things . via undiscovered armor pieces, undiscovered relics, undiscovered Weapons, etc .. )
Additionally, I'd hope for Gear to be able to be "Upgraded" / Enchanted " - being able to Provide Additional Stats and/or " Armor-Abilities " . Obtainable via ... "Experimenting Crafting Materials & Rare Crafting materials " and Producing items for upgrades . Gems & Elemental Gems to produce additional Variety of other Upgrades. And Enchantments. Spells found in Books / Scribes for other Enhancements and other "Rarities" found in-Game World & rarely in Town Shops . (since the items value & accessibility will be based on the Node's Level )
@Cyreph , This is what I'm hoping to see and how i view Player Level & Gearing.... and other things.
P.S I'm still hoping Devs add the feature of Players "Crafting new abilities " via combining Crafting Material + Abilities you learn as you lvl up = New Ability
@Eragale haha Thank you for including line breaks!
The devs said we will gain xp from unexpected activities - compared to previous MMORPGs. Combat effectiveness may not be as reliant on vertical power as most people seem to expect. Horizontal progression is a primary focus of Ashes.
There are no factions, but citizenship will be the gate that bars voting participation from other nodes.
I think there's a good chance of seeing some form of most of what you've outlined.
@Eragale " haha Thank you for including line breaks!
The devs said we will gain xp from unexpected activities - compared to previous MMORPGs. Combat effectiveness may not be as reliant on vertical power as most people seem to expect. Horizontal progression is a primary focus of Ashes.
There are no factions, but citizenship will be the gate that bars voting participation from other nodes.
I think there's a good chance of seeing some form of most of what you've outlined. "
I think it will depend if it is just the 2 50s vs the 1 lvl 100, the lvl 100 will win. But there is also the group battle balancing they were talking about which could enable them to come out on top in a larger group battle.
If a level 50 could kill a level 100 then there is something wrong with the game in my opinion. Even if we scale it down to level 25 killing a level 50, it shouldn't be possible. Maybe if there are multiple level 25s verse 1 level 50 but it should still be quite a task. Of course, this is my opinion. I feel the amount of time you spend in a game should determine your power. Time spent in the game determines not only your skills and knowledge but what level you are, how proficient your skills should be and the kind of gear you have, not to mention someone's status. Ashes seem to be going in a direction where players can gain titles/rank and skills based on those titles such as high ranking in religion or kings, to me this should make you more difficult to kill.
Comments
You just make that your red, zombie alt.
If it easy for lowbies to gank high levs, there will be that much more ganking.
And it won't even take that much to level to a point where you can gank folks.
For this situation i will be playing a top pvper in the server and we will use you as the casual player who likes pve only:
I decide I want to kill you so i create another character who's purpose is to kill you without your consent for a fight. I then get myself a few levels which shouldn't take too long. I then find you... Since the lower level is better at PvP i should be able to kill you and you'll have to try and get away right?
Now we assume I killed you... I am filled with corruption. I take my main to the area and kill my alt so i retain all drops and remove his corruption by doing so. I now still have my alt with no corruption and wait for you to return.
I define this as causing chaos on the server. It will be much more difficult if i have to use my higher main to kill your main.
In fact, this will eliminate any reasoning for the corruption system to have been created in the first place and just made that entire system null and void
The ability in the MMO i played, was basically a Counter Ability. to avoid it, you just simply wait for the " Ability's Duration to end "
but you choose what you did next wisely. Because it only Countered Melee Hits. And NOT Long-Range Hits
(i.e. Arrow or Magic hits ... and I guess Spells with Word-Enchantments too since that seems to Be a Bard Play-Style based on Reading the KickStarter Bard info.
none of these can be " countered "
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Update: Lets presume its a Level 25 Countered a Level 85 .If you get Countered, the Damage will be based on the Difference Between the Level-gap. And a Percentage of that Difference will be taken out of the Countered-Player
Soo ... if its a Level 1 confronted by a Level 100 ... and that Character does a Melee Hit ... Less than 5% HP will remain . However, that doesn't mean that same Level 1 can still inflict damage onto the Level 100 due to obvious difference in Gear. Which would result in the Level 1 doing ... like 0.021 Damage
( the entirety of this Situation would be based on Imaginative Numbers - so Damage Calc with imaginary numbers ... not worth going any furtther. )
( Referencing @AutumnWillow Statement btw )
I don't think anyone is making an argument for a low level to be on par with a high level. The high level player should have an advantage. You make an alt, you're lower leveled, possibly less well equipped, chances are you might not win. If the skill level of combatants is wide enough to overcome the level gap, then you might win. But if the difference in skill level of the combatants isn't high enough to overcome the advantage granted by the character level gap, you'll probably lose.
You'll probably need a small party of lower leveled gankers to attempt to gank a high level. And yes, that could be a possible problem, it might make people want to travel in pairs or groups to ensure their safety because of the possibility of highwaymen.
Travel could made safer by ensuring regular NPC guard patrols on main roads, allowing people to escape to safety quicker and forcing lower leveled gank crew to prowl the lesser patrolled routes.
If PK and ganking on alts might be an issue, perhaps corruption should affect the entire account instead of just the corrupted alt.
added something else to my Previous Post ( forgot to add it )
Please Take a look
Use the same scenario and pretend no running away is involved. The much higher skilled should kill the not-so-skilled as per what you said. Even assuming these characters are only 10 levels difference. This will cause a huge problem with griefing and player killing.
yes, a player with a high level should be the "bad-ass" when fighting someone of significantly lower level. his skill will determine if he is actually a bad-ass when up against his own level
Honestly in all my PvP exprience. Gear has caused more of a problem than level gaps. Raid gear and epic gear specifically which is always harder to be obtained... meaning it's more likely for hardcore players to get them than the casuals. Levels will come regardless of your play style or time to play the game
On a related note then, on the assumption that the level 100 is the level cap, the pinnacle of everything you can possibly do to improve your character until an expansion or something:
At what level X, can two characters of level X defeat a character of level 2X? Assuming they are of the same skill level and their equipment is average for their level.
I assume that two level 1s should be able to beat one level 2? But at which point is it not feasible for the team of two to be able beat the solo side?
I don't think that there is a correct answer here. I just want to understand how you think power will scale by level. I think this is a more meaningful discussion that the original question.
This game will have corruption and player killing.. Therefor my answer to you has already been posted above
Eragale wrote: I distinctively recall playing an MMO where a low-Level could potentially defeat a High-Level. And yes, that DOES include One-Shotting a a High Level by using a Defensive Skill.
The low level doesn't have to be "on par" with the high level if it's possible for a low level to one-shot a high-level.
Would it help if I said, "I hope to see that player level is LESS of a deciding factor than it is in other games?" I'm totally fine with levels being the deciding factor in other games. But in ashes, meaningful conflict is on of the main pillars of the games and it doesn't make sense that if pillar can only be truly accessed at the level cap. Unlike other games, the PvP in ashes is supposed to have meaning.
If this game takes 500 game hours to reach level cap for example, it should be balanced to allow a wider range of of levels to engage each other in battle. If leveling is quick, then it's fine to have a wide gulf in power between high levels and low levels.
That statement would be very reasonable as long as a large gap such as given in the example would be too large of a gap for a comparison. I personally think about 10 levels difference should be a big advantage. 20 levels difference should be deciding a 1v1 fight
( you may have seen this posted differently on a few other threads )
I personally hoped for their to be different Kinds of EXP Gained - such as Ability Experience, Crafting / Artisan EXP, Mining EXP all of which function & (slowly)increases independently from one another.
Back to the point, I'm hoping Level should not directly determine the Player's Power / Strength . But Rather, indirectly ; I'm hoping it determines what that Player's ... " Overall ForeFront " by an insignificantly smalll margin / increment
( via Effectiveness-Output (DPS, Healer, Tank Role ), Chances of Being Elected via King/Queen / how much they contributed in creating the Node throughout the Stages until it gets to ... Stage 4 (?)
( Based on that Node's Function . )
( I.e. Military Node's King/Queen is based on Martial Prowess / The Strongest , while
the Scientific Node's King/Queen is based on Voting )
In other words,
once the " Node is at Stage 4, i anticipated an in-town Event to Occur" - Military Node will most likely host a Fighting- Tournament, Scientific Node will most likely host a Voting Pole, Economic Node will most likely host a ... " Who has the Most Money " Chart/Graph , and the Divine Node will most likely host ... a " Faith Gauge " , who has the highest " Faith " )
And since Factions, don't exist, anyone - from any Node - can participate
( unless they already have Node Citizenship from another Node ? )
In other words, I'd hope for the Player's Level would indirectly dictate that Player's "Activity-Eligibility " . Such as Zones that are not Off-Limits to Low-Levels. And Low-Level monsters should NOT be in Low-Level Zones, rather ... the Level-Difficulty of Monsters will scattered throughout the World. Encouraging Players to Explore.
But I'd hope for the Gearing in this MMO to break-away from the "common-trend" from newer-MMOs. The Gearing Progressing is usually Linear & gets boring quickly
In other words, I hope that Gearing would be Determined by Exploring the Open-World (via Mining, Crafting, Digging, Combining Crafting Materials (like Alchemy),
including the Loot-Drops within Open-World Areas & a instanced areas( maybe none ?)
But these 2 not as Prominent.
Craft for a diverse & viable Gear Set
( not to say Crafting would be so Linear & Simple, but rather lots Variety - where they'll actually be an unfathomable amount of Crafting Material to be discovered. And each new discovered Crafting Material can be combined with Other-Crafting Material to create new things . via undiscovered armor pieces, undiscovered relics, undiscovered Weapons, etc .. )
Additionally, I'd hope for Gear to be able to be "Upgraded" / Enchanted " - being able to Provide Additional Stats and/or " Armor-Abilities " . Obtainable via ... "Experimenting Crafting Materials & Rare Crafting materials " and Producing items for upgrades .
Gems & Elemental Gems to produce additional Variety of other Upgrades. And Enchantments. Spells found in Books / Scribes for other Enhancements and other "Rarities" found in-Game World & rarely in Town Shops .
(since the items value & accessibility will be based on the Node's Level )
@Cyreph , This is what I'm hoping to see and how i view Player Level & Gearing.... and other things.
P.S I'm still hoping Devs add the feature of Players "Crafting new abilities " via combining Crafting Material + Abilities you learn as you lvl up = New Ability
haha Thank you for including line breaks!
The devs said we will gain xp from unexpected activities - compared to previous MMORPGs.
Combat effectiveness may not be as reliant on vertical power as most people seem to expect. Horizontal progression is a primary focus of Ashes.
There are no factions, but citizenship will be the gate that bars voting participation from other nodes.
I think there's a good chance of seeing some form of most of what you've outlined.