Death penalty

ArchivedUser

@WinterAssassin I can see your point.  I'm not saying that it's a bad system or a good system, we'll just have to wait till it's released to find out.  

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Dygz said:

lexmax said:

Negative XP, stat dampening, loot and gear loss penalties apply to PvP deaths.

There isn't much information on PvE death penalties at the moment.

PvE death penalties: includes experience debt, durability loss, as well as dropping a portion of carried raw materials (which can then be looted).

PvP death penalties are either normal, half or 3x-4x depending on how one is flagged when killed, etc.

Well, IS started off by saying that PvE death penalties are the same as PvP, which is fine. But then they went on to say that XP debit may not be a thing in PvE. Durability loss and percentage of raw materials are still on the table, but they are also talking about other debuffs (such as HP loss) and then they say that they're not exactly sure how PvE death penalties will work. So IDK

You have a quote for that? (por favor)

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:
You have a quote for that? (por favor)

Here ya go

ArchivedUser

Glad to see the enthusiasm on this topic! 

ArchivedUser

I like the idea of negative EXP, would like to see another mechanic added to it for people who had died multiple times. For example, the game Vindictus shows the players gear getting ripped a bit or make it appear dull compared to its original appearance. 
 

ArchivedUser

VisualizeZ said:

I like the idea of negative EXP, would like to see another mechanic added to it for people who had died multiple times. For example, the game Vindictus shows the players gear getting ripped a bit or make it appear dull compared to its original appearance. 
 

Though the appearance of gear seems like it would relate more to the current durability of the item, how much it has worn down, ect.. but it would be interesting to have a visual indicator for someone that has negative xp

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Negative XP, stat dampening, loot and gear loss penalties apply to PvP deaths.

There isn't much information on PvE death penalties at the moment.

IS started off by saying that PvE death penalties are the same as PvP, which is fine. But then they went on to say that XP debit may not be a thing in PvE. Durability loss and percentage of raw materials are still on the table, but they are also talking about other debuffs (such as HP loss) and then they say that they're not exactly sure how PvE death penalties will work. So IDK

lexmax said:

Dygz said:
You have a quote for that? (por favor)

Here ya go

Thanks for the link. I don't think the devs said quite what you said they did.
I'm going to quote verbatim instead of notes in a bit, but even just from the Lazy Peon notes:
What are the punishments for dying in this game? Do they differ for PvP and PvE?

• At the moment they do not and we don’t think they will.
• May accrue negative experience that will affect how effectively you can play the game
• We are still talking about what those death penalties might include
• Could be things like debuffs, could have time preventing you from immediately re-entering combat, hp levels, etc

ArchivedUser

Ashes of Creation Kickstarter Livestream May 15, 2017
    36:25

What are the punishments for dying in this game? Do they differ for PvP and PvE?
STEVEN: Do they differ for PvP and PvE? At the moment they do not and I don't think they will, but that's something we're still discussing.
Penalties include things like experience debt penalties -and that's not like to a de-leveling sense- you're going to accrue negative experience that may have an impact on your performance in the game with certain skills and abilities.
And we're still talking about what exactly those death penalties are going to be.

OK so maybe like debuffs and stuff?
STEVEN: Mmm hmmmn. Could be things like debuffs that might have some time to allow you to re-enter combat or something so you just can't just spawn run.
It could include penalties on you overall health. It could include penalties on your skill damage and percentages, your casting time. I mean, there could be certain things that are associated with this that we're still discussing.

ArchivedUser

I just posted this to the livestream Q&A

We know a lot of detail about PvP death penalties, but can you clarify what the PvE death penalties are? Are these exactly the same as PvP or if not what are the differences?

ArchivedUser

This will be something I am definitely not use to... Lmao, shoot in WoW if anything you get a BUFF for deaths in their Looking for Raid shindig that gives a steady 5% buff to all damage, healing, and stamina stacking every death up to 50%. I'll probably cry about this change to me but I welcome it, I am still trying to get mentally prepared for losing some of my good loot and stuff if I mess up or get caught slippin'

ArchivedUser

Uranu5 said:

This will be something I am definitely not use to... Lmao, shoot in WoW if anything you get a BUFF for deaths in their Looking for Raid shindig that gives a steady 5% buff to all damage, healing, and stamina stacking every death up to 50%. I'll probably cry about this change to me but I welcome it, I am still trying to get mentally prepared for losing some of my good loot and stuff if I mess up or get caught slippin'

There used to be a (mild) death penalty in WoW in terms of durability loss. Back in Wrath we had to do regular gold drives to fund the guild bank repair bills. Not sure if it's still there or if gold and repair devices are so plentiful that you can bypass it without a problem?

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

There used to be a (mild) death penalty in WoW in terms of durability loss. Back in Wrath we had to do regular gold drives to fund the guild bank repair bills. Not sure if it's still there or if gold and repair devices are so plentiful that you can bypass it without a problem?

There are 10% durability los on PvE death in wow, but that isn't a real punishment, but a gold sink, so it helps countering gold inflation.
Also your death respawn timer temporally increased with every death, but that also was to make farming your own character with other account/friend harder.

Also if there would be stat punishment when you have loots of negative xp, then it's basically equals with deleveling, even if you call it on a different name.


Heavy punishment for deaths impact the PvP negatively. One can say that be good and not die, but that's not work this way. If you got ambushed by a 10man group you will die, your skill doesn't matter. Losing hard earned xp or items cause you got ambushed isn't fun, it just forces geared players to stay in safe zones whole day, which will eventually kill the PvP.

Not to mention that a good player needs to die some times. It's better sometimes if you sacrifice yourself for your teammate. Well it would, but you will going to get punished for defending your teammate?

Not to mention that while a skilled one can stay safe and it maybe just end in a boring game, a casual one will going to die loots, and will quit fast when he would need to re level/gear in the 20th time.

Simply a heavy durability lose is enough. It's not that big punishment to make someone quit the game, but it's very good for the economy, as it makes constant need for new gear.

It's also much more easy to implement a simple durability lose, than calculating every possibilities to when and how much xp/item should a player lose on death. Not to mention that random item drop is much worse than losing every item, and stat dampening is just ****.

ArchivedUser

MADE said:

It's also much more easy to implement a simple durability lose, than calculating every possibilities to when and how much xp/item should a player lose on death. Not to mention that random item drop is much worse than losing every item, and stat dampening is just ****.

PvP stat dampening in Ashes is not a death penalty and only affects corrupt players. It is a countermeasure to toxic gameplay, not a penalty that will affect peeps who want meaningful PvP combat.

ArchivedUser

think a death penalty in a game that has a lot of PvP , is a bad idea but in PvE fine  

ArchivedUser

Death penalty systems.

Loosing xp is certainly valid for PVE. I don't mind you leaving certain items on your corpse so you have to go back and recover them i think it is totally valid and adds to realism. I think the Vitae system they HAD in AC was great, first death 5% loss ( 5% per death) to all stats up to a maximum reduction of 40% in PVE. This was great because as you recovered your xp your vitae would diminish until you were back at 100% stats. This encourages thoughtful play as the player is now sensitive to and respectful of the xyz mob that just kicked their butt. In the process you may have to ask others to go help retrieve your corpse and recover your vitae in a group.  I think it builds better community and gives players pause before they decide to just jump in on something without penalty. It builds community, character and may actually improve us as human beings (not that, that is the job of the game) which i think is incredibly positive.  So please lets have a death penalty, simple durability loss is not sufficient because repairs are NOT a huge economic motivator.

ArchivedUser

My 2 cents on PvP vs PvE deaths. Please try and stay with me because my sentence structure can suck sometimes

I believe both need xp loss especially in an open PvP enviornment. Without any loss there is less of a fear of death correct?

Now i firmly believe that PvP death should be more or less than PvE depending on the circumstances. I will be using PvE as a base model of what 100% would be. These are just examples to show that I believe it's never just a fixed number of percentage loss and many factors should play a role. Such as:

• purple player kills purple player (assuming equal level or lower level wins) = 100%

• red player kills green player = 75%

• green or purple player kills red player = 200%

• Level difference = An equation should  be implemented for level differences prior to the above percentages being applied. such as: [100 - ("level difference" * 2)] So, if a level 50 kills a level 40 in a fair fight this would cause the level 40 to lose only 80%. If that same difference was a PK. It would translate to 75% of the currently calculated 80%. Coming to only a loss of  60% 
• No percentage number should ever fall below 50%

Using any remainer beyond that 50% should be multiplied by 2 and added as a percentage of corruption accrued So..
Using the same equation if a level 50 pks a level 1 the level 1 would only lose 50%.
BUT. Because that would normally come to 1.5% there is a remainder of 48.5% that was ignored and will be applied to the PKers Corruption as [(48.5 * 2) + 100]  = 197% the normal corruption that would have been obtained.
This solves a lot of issues I experienced and some of you are worried about such as:

1. high levels ganking lower levels still is a loss but less
2. Farm/botters deliberately killing their crafters to bring them to a lower level (this also needs all skills lost if a level is lost)
3. PK's of mass level difference would drop and PKers would focus more on people their level.
4. PK still serves a purpose but at a higher cost to the one killing if the levels are too far difference. This would make the kills have to be more meaningful or have a better reason for it

****ALL OF THE ABOVE SHOULD ONLY APPLY TO OPEN PVP. THIS EXCLUDES ANYTHING SUCH AS GUILD WARS, NODE BATTLES, CASTLE SIEGES AND MORE.**** I believe those should all stay 100% regardless

thoughts?

ArchivedUser

As someone who is expecting to encounter this often, I can't say how excited I am.

I mean that I often do stupid things such as falling off cliffs etc.
The extra added panic that I probably ought not to walk off that cliff is a great incentive to use my brain more often

However I can't say I'm not concerned with player death around a jumping puzzle etc that would require a higher level of dexterity.
Being physically disabled I tend to die a lot when doing jumping puzzles.
And whilst I have to turn off any voice chat whilst doing them to hide the torrent of swearing... I love doing them...after the event of course...after I've achieved it and calmed down.

I would really appreciate a death penalty free zone surrounding the ground underneath jumping puzzles...

ArchivedUser

lexmax said:

Negative XP, stat dampening, loot and gear loss penalties apply to PvP deaths.

There isn't much information on PvE death penalties at the moment.

You didn't understood what was written in that topic, you don't get stat dampening for death.

ArchivedUser

I am a veteran of old school EQ and a fan of harsh death penalties. Hefty experience loss and or random item loss is keeping it real and forces players to play smart. It also allows quality players to advance faster than the masses and shine.

ArchivedUser

I like the idea of giving players the 'choice' to sacirfice game progress in ceratain scenarios. As that is the only currency that has any real worth in the game.

ArchivedUser

You dont need EXP loss in a game to make death hurt.  Having a SWG like Item Decay system where Items do break for good is better.  It makes the player run economy work.  EXP loss will only make people not try anything challenging especially if they dont have a lot of play time.   

ArchivedUser

would like it if yu have to repair your stuff when u died or something like this but negative XP could make it hard for beginners like imagine they get farmed from 10 lvl higher People then they will leave the game again

ArchivedUser

Jorev said:

I am a veteran of old school EQ and a fan of harsh death penalties. Hefty experience loss and or random item loss is keeping it real and forces players to play smart. It also allows quality players to advance faster than the masses and shine.

The problem is the times have changed so much that people when they play the older school games and see how punishing the game was will just leave.   We need to maintain around 250K subs for Ashes to be successful and making people feel like they are bashing their head against a wall will not keep subs up.   

I played UO, SWG, and FFXI before WOW even came out.  I know how these games push players to be better.  However the best method I found of keeping players around and pushing them to be better was the SWG model.    In SWG if you died and didnt clone near by you ended up with a Stat penalty and had to spend time getting the stats healed by a doctor and a dancer.   Also the Gear broke fairly fast in SWG.   It was punishment enough that players didnt just go around being stupid because it cost credits and time.   It didnt de-level you or perma death unless you were a jedi.

SWG had very good death mechanics that can be used in Ashes.  Let's make it so a Cleric can heal a persons stat loss due to death.  Let them buy gear to replace their current gear.  Do not make gear that can always be repaired endlessly.   

ArchivedUser

Imo durability loss is a lazy death penalty. 

ArchivedUser

I do not like the durability sytem. No fast travel and your sword breaks???????? Yeah. However, I would go for a bit of a stat loss on the weopon. This way there is a penalty for death but at the same time you are not going to drift down a river with no paddle.