[Information] World PvP

lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod

I’ve combined and summarized the info we’ve been given so far on open world PvP. This info is subject to change as new information is provided.

PvP is the catalyst for change in Ashes of Creation. Player combat is intended to be meaningful, ranging from caravan battles to vast open world conflicts fought for the pride of Kings.

For open world PvP, we have designed a flagging system that severely deters people from griefing other players (described below). 

Our players can participate in PvP with one another without having to resort to murder. The penalties are intended to be severe enough to deter any type of spawn camping

Players will naturally come across both PvP and PvE aspects in Ashes, which is why it is labelled as a PvX game.

PvP Zones (also called Battlegrounds)

The PvP mechanics follow static PvP zones at certain points of interest where players fight for control over cities, castles, caravans, or open world hunting grounds. These are open world PvP zones that flag everyone for battle.

Outside of these zones, normal PvP flagging rules apply (see Player flagging below).

Arenas are separate instanced PvP scenarios and are not part of open world PvP.

Player flagging

There is a flagging system that's in place that highly disincentivizes outright murder.

There are three levels of flagging for world PvP.

  • Non-combatant (green) - Everyone in the world starts as a non-combatant. 
  • Combatant (purple) - If a non-combatant enters a PvP zone (see above) they are automatically flagged as combatant while in the zone and for a period of time after leaving that zone. Players are also flagged as combatants if they attack another player. If the attacked players fight back, they are also flagged as combatants, otherwise the attacked player will remain flagged as a non-combatant. Players can kill combatants without repercussions, and are encouraged to do so, since dying while a Combatant means you suffer reduced death penalties (See Player death below).
  • Corrupt (red) - If a combatant player kills a non-combatant player, they will be flagged as corrupt. If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant. 

Party members, raid members, guild members and alliance members do not flag each other.

Caravans (see also)

The caravan system is an open world PvP system that revolves around opportunity and risk. Caravans facilitate the transfer of goods for players wishing to turn a profit. Initiating a caravan from one city to another will create an objective that players will need to defend while it moves along its chosen route to the selected destination.

Player corruption

  • A player’s corruption score increases with each non-combatant player killed.

  • The wider the level disparity between the players the more corruption will be gained.

  • The higher the corruption score, the higher drop percentage when the corrupted player is killed (see Player death below).

  • The higher the corruption score, the more skill and stat dampening applies, until the corrupt player ultimately becomes ineffective at combat.

  • Corruption is removed through death. Multiple deaths may be necessary to remove all corruption. There may be other mechanics to reduce corruption.

  • Corruption has a visible effect on a player’s appearance.

  • A corrupt player’s location is revealed to bounty hunters.

  • Corruption duration is reduced in military nodes.

Player death

  • A non-combatant who dies suffers normal penalties, which include experience debt, durability loss, as well as dropping a percentage of carried raw materials.

  • A combatant who dies suffers these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant.

  • A corrupt player suffers penalties at three or four times the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes weapons, gear, and inventory items. 

  • Corrupt players respawn at random locations in the vicinity of their death, not at regular spawn points.

Bounty hunters

  • Players can acquire the bounty hunter title through a quest available only to citizens of Military Stage 4 (Town) nodes.

  • Bounty hunters will be able to see corrupted players on their map.

  • Corrupted players may kill bounty hunters without acquiring additional corruption score.

Edit: Updated references and added more info on Caravans.

Edit: Added a flagging diagram

Edit: Fixed typo. Thanks @Trinnox

Edit: Clarified player respawning rule. Thanks to @UnknownSystemError and @Shunex :love:

Other informational posts


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Comments

  • RootedBaneRootedBane Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Pretty much works exactly how Lineage 2 worked...
    This video shows the flagging system from L2 for anyone who hasn't played

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKhbtog_pI

  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    I've made some small updates to the article. Thanks for your feedback guys.

  • RhoqaroRhoqaro Member ✭✭✭
    Nice post. I'm going to read ALL this, as soon as I collect a couple of free minutes :)
  • WelphgrynWelphgryn Member ✭✭✭✭
    Great write up lemax!
  • RootedBaneRootedBane Member ✭✭✭
    I really hope they allow grinding/xp gain to lower your corruption. It should take a while to do but nonetheless should be a thing. The rush you get while trying to work your karma of whilst constantly looking over your shoulder for some random individual to see you red and jump you. It causes you to grind where few try and go.

    The last time I had to do this in a game with this system I had to grind for 4.5 hours to try and get it off (I killed most of an entire party) but died from a random who had seen me red  :D
  • MrWafflesMrWaffles Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 2017
    Not sure I like the "if the combatant fights back, they get flagged", so we just stand there and get killed, but try to defend ourselves and the PK'er gets legitimised.
    Kind of. This exact system was in Lineage 2. If they are a PK'er then they are already red and you wont flag if you attack/kill them. People did one of two of the follow strategies: Let them drop you and come back to kill the (now red) and dont flag and maybe get some of their gear. Or two, message friends, guild members, or shout in region/world chat that there is a flagged player. You'd be surprised how many people show up for a kill.

    The system was pretty effective. Yes some times you will get annoyed because you want to try to fight back and this does flag you. 
    waffles
  • MrWafflesMrWaffles Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 2017
    I will say that the biggest flaw with this system was  present in Lineage 2. People had "perma Red" characters. The pretty much gave up on trying to get rid of their karma and when they wanted to PK they would log into that character, PK, and switch back to the non flagged character. Not a lot of people did this but there were some that did with really high lvl characters. All that work and to turn them into that seemed like a waste but to each their own. 

    Overall I like this system. Open pvp is the best kind. There needs to be consequences for sure, but the system has it's merits. Take for instance this example that I know every person has experienced:

    You are trying to get some material (mine ore, forage plans, etc) and someone snipes your spot. From the other perspective some one is monopolizing every spot (some times bots...).

    Most of the time (non open pvp) you yell, complain, or simply try to beat the other person to the spawn of the mat. It's really annoying. With open pvp you still have these things, but you can try to compete over them as well. You have to make a decision, "Is this worth going red over?" 

    In the event that pvp happens, you now have a more complex situation. Are they going to come back? Should I move? Did you flag/still flagged? It's the same system as every MMO but with another level of complexity. It's exciting.

    If you not a big fan of this system you can still play like before.Yes worst case is you die (without fighting back) and they are now red. When you come back I bet they are gone. Those mats are not worth possibly losing gear and xp. If they are there still, call some friends and take them out. Will be fun and you might get lucky and be rewarded with some gear :smiley:
    waffles
  • RhoqaroRhoqaro Member ✭✭✭
    lexmax said:
    Players can acquire the bounty hunter title through a quest available only to citizens of Military Stage 4 (Town) nodes.
    Damn. I just found another pretty good reason for aiming at a Military node.

    Time to give up the scientific career, I guess. Always hated those boring Alchemy lessons anyway.
  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    Rhoqaro said:
    Damn. I just found another pretty good reason for aiming at a Military node.

    Time to give up the scientific career, I guess. Always hated those boring Alchemy lessons anyway.
    Oh the irony of alchemy being part of science :disappointed:

  • RhoqaroRhoqaro Member ✭✭✭
    I wanted to say Merchant's Microeconomics, but that sounded even worse.
  • WinterAssassinWinterAssassin Member ✭✭✭
    MrWaffles said:
    I will say that the biggest flaw with this system was  present in Lineage 2. People had "perma Red" characters. The pretty much gave up on trying to get rid of their karma and when they wanted to PK they would log into that character, PK, and switch back to the non flagged character. Not a lot of people did this but there were some that did with really high lvl characters. All that work and to turn them into that seemed like a waste but to each their own. 

    Overall I like this system. Open pvp is the best kind. There needs to be consequences for sure, but the system has it's merits. Take for instance this example that I know every person has experienced:

    You are trying to get some material (mine ore, forage plans, etc) and someone snipes your spot. From the other perspective some one is monopolizing every spot (some times bots...).

    Most of the time (non open pvp) you yell, complain, or simply try to beat the other person to the spawn of the mat. It's really annoying. With open pvp you still have these things, but you can try to compete over them as well. You have to make a decision, "Is this worth going red over?" 

    In the event that pvp happens, you now have a more complex situation. Are they going to come back? Should I move? Did you flag/still flagged? It's the same system as every MMO but with another level of complexity. It's exciting.

    If you not a big fan of this system you can still play like before.Yes worst case is you die (without fighting back) and they are now red. When you come back I bet they are gone. Those mats are not worth possibly losing gear and xp. If they are there still, call some friends and take them out. Will be fun and you might get lucky and be rewarded with some gear :smiley:
    That wasn't so much of a flaw. Most of us with permareds didn't have gear along with them. If they had gear they weren't doing much with that character.

    The biggest flaw in L2's system was P2W. Before the game went P2W nobody could afford to have a permared. The very few that did left the game (that was their "@#$%^ this i'm taking everyone out"). Lineage 2's system was near perfect.

    If they just never introduced soulshots I would have been happier as we all depended on it after the first year LOL.

    But seriously, before the bots took over and it went P2W, Lineage 2 didn't have a PK problem. Leveling was intense so losing xp was worth more than most any other game. People would also protect lower levels from bullies. I personally would hang out at Talking Island because PKers loved to hang out there for some reason.

    My lineage 2 experience was 2006-2014. It died too much for me to stay any longer
    (servers: Kain--->Chronos Main: Spraxx Lvl:98 Tank)

  • Iscoed1815Iscoed1815 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    MrWaffles said:
    Not sure I like the "if the combatant fights back, they get flagged", so we just stand there and get killed, but try to defend ourselves and the PK'er gets legitimised.
    Kind of. This exact system was in Lineage 2. If they are a PK'er then they are already red and you wont flag if you attack/kill them. People did one of two of the follow strategies: Let them drop you and come back to kill the (now red) and dont flag and maybe get some of their gear. Or two, message friends, guild members, or shout in region/world chat that there is a flagged player. You'd be surprised how many people show up for a kill.

    The system was pretty effective. Yes some times you will get annoyed because you want to try to fight back and this does flag you. 
    Hmm, thats ok, but the op doesn't say that, it says "if you attack a player you get flagged, if that player fights back, they flag"  so if you kill the person, your technically not PK'ing as the player fought back and got flagged.

    So I take that as if I'm going about my business, a player runs up and flags and attacks me, I'm best of just standing there and getting killed, if I fight back I also flag up, and if I die the attacking player won't get any corruption.

    If the player is already corrupt, whats to stop them running into a group of non flagged players, the players flag to kill the corrupt person, only for the corrupt person to have friends near by, watching and waiting for innocent players to flag, so they can then rush in and kill them?  Or whats to stop one player who has no corruption again rushing in and attacking others, letting them all get flagged when they turn around and defend themselves, and again the attacker has buddies waiting in the wings just for the moment the innocents flag?
  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    If the player is already corrupt, whats to stop them running into a group of non flagged players, the players flag to kill the corrupt person, only for the corrupt person to have friends near by, watching and waiting for innocent players to flag, so they can then rush in and kill them?  
    "If a non-combatant attacks a corrupt player, the non-combatant will not flag as a combatant."
    Or whats to stop one player who has no corruption again rushing in and attacking others, letting them all get flagged when they turn around and defend themselves
    "If a combatant player kills a non-combatant player, they will be flagged as corrupt."

    The player being attacked may take one of the following actions:
    1. Choose not to fight back if they know the fight is hopeless or they cannot PvP. The PKer will be flagged corrupt.
    2. Be too low level and simply instadie from the attack. The PKer will be flagged corrupt.
    3. Be bait so that an entire guild of BH can counter gank the PKers. The PKer will be flagged corrupt.
    and again the attacker has buddies waiting in the wings just for the moment the innocents flag?
    "If the attacked players fight back, they are also flagged as combatants... Players can kill combatants without repercussions, and are encouraged to do so, since dying while a Combatant means you suffer reduced death penalties"
    1. If they fight back, then both parties will be flagged as combattants. Because combatants have reduced death penalties, the gank squad joining in will not get much reward from this fight.
    2. Again, this might be bait and switch. 
    TL;DR There aren't any loopholes in this system. PK griefing will probably still happen but it carries huge penalties and little or no reward, so it's not going to be an epidemic like in full loot games.

  • AldienAldien Member
    The pvp/pve implementation is one of my biggest concerns. I am sold on most aspects of this game (assuming what has been promised actually happens). What I am concerned about after playing many mmo's is the monopoly I see happen again and again when ti comes to resources. I know the resources are spread out and unique to a node, but what prevents one guild from monopolizing several nodes? Are all town nodes potential pvp or just some? I assume all nodes are pve? Does this also mean that if you are in a guild and an opposing guild declares war on your node that you are now flagged as combatant even if your build is not set up to fight? I mention this because I prefer to craft in mmo's these days. I prefer supporting my guild mates or selling etc and the big attraction for me to this game is the stress on economy. So I'm very curious about how much punishment is going to be inflicted on a crafting/economy oriented player.
  • MrWafflesMrWaffles Member alpha-0-rank
    edited June 2017
    Aldien said:
    The pvp/pve implementation is one of my biggest concerns. I am sold on most aspects of this game (assuming what has been promised actually happens). What I am concerned about after playing many mmo's is the monopoly I see happen again and again when ti comes to resources. I know the resources are spread out and unique to a node, but what prevents one guild from monopolizing several nodes? Are all town nodes potential pvp or just some? I assume all nodes are pve? Does this also mean that if you are in a guild and an opposing guild declares war on your node that you are now flagged as combatant even if your build is not set up to fight? I mention this because I prefer to craft in mmo's these days. I prefer supporting my guild mates or selling etc and the big attraction for me to this game is the stress on economy. So I'm very curious about how much punishment is going to be inflicted on a crafting/economy oriented player.
    This is a great point! I will say I love this system and hope to glob this is what happens. Let me first explain this system will have to have a both party agree system. A declared war will be on both sides. If your guild goes to war with another guild it's on like Donkey Kong. This is why knowing your guilds intentions and being a part of their discussions is crucial. 

    If you are not into this system don't join a guild that has pvp/waring in their agenda. If another guild declares war on your guild and you do not declare it back they are flagged by default (only for the declared guild), but you are not (unless you actually attack them). 

    In other games this meant you had to always have your pvp setup ready. I had pvp gear on a macro to switch out from my pve gear. There were also pvp items that helped you escape, and overall boosted the economy.  

    In lower levels I did however join a guild that did no pvp and so I was able to pve in peace. Yes I did get the occasional jerk that tried to get me to flag. I would just get naked and wait for him to hit me. I would drop, they'd go red, and would shout that there was a RED outside and I would have random people come to my rescue. 

    I met some of my best MMO friends simply because they wanted to help/kill REDs.
    waffles
  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    I think the idea is that nodes of different types are necessary to form a viable society. In my mind, Nodes are both dependent and in conflict at the same time. No node type can exist in isolation without the other nodes to support it. Some nodes will likely be more dependent on adjacent nodes in order to achieve balance.

    Adjacent nodes will require military nodes to provide defence, such as Bounty Hunters and defence against castle and node sieges. On the flipside, military nodes depend on scientific nodes for transportation, economic nodes for supply and religious nodes for buffs etc. I expect that the devs will be putting a lot of effort into ensuring this system is balanced at a meta level. Especially in the geographic arrangement of node types.

    Nodes will be in conflict, but for specific reasons:
    • Disputes over supply lines and trade routes.
    • Fight for control of the zone of influence by deleveling or destroying nodes (mini battles) or metropolises (epic battles).
    • Castle sieges by competing guilds, drawing in surrounding nodes into battle.
    This goes to the point about balance. It would be mad for a military node to destroy nodes in their ZOI for no reason because this will ultimately weaken themselves. 

  • BrirBrir Member
    edited June 2017
    Do we already know how aoe damage / heals / buffs will work in open pvp?
    Let's say I find 2 (pvp-flagged) players A and B fighting somewhere in the wilderness. If I also attack A, will that turn B into a temporary ally? Or can I decide to attack both at the same time?
    Or let's say I I fight someone, using a ground target aoe dot. If another (pvp-flagged) player walks into it without attacking me, will he instantly take damage from my skill? Or will I have to target him with some single target skill to show the system that I also want to fight him?
    And same for aoe heals and buffs. What happens if I use them next to players who are fighting each other? Or will those support skills be limited to target group members only?
  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    Brir said:
    Do we already know how aoe damage / heals / buffs will work in open pvp?
    Let's say I find 2 (pvp-flagged) players A and B fighting somewhere in the wilderness. If I also attack A, will that turn B into a temporary ally? Or can I decide to attack both at the same time?
    Or let's say I I fight someone, using a ground target aoe dot. If another (pvp-flagged) player walks into it without attacking me, will he instantly take damage from my skill? Or will I have to target him with some single target skill to show the system that I also want to fight him?
    And same for aoe heals and buffs. What happens if I use them next to players who are fighting each other? Or will those support skills be limited to target group members only?
    These are very good questions. Like you I'm waiting for clarification on how AoE, healing, dots, utility skill and passive effects will work with flagging. I hope we get more on the upcoming livestream.

  • WinterAssassinWinterAssassin Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2017
    Brir said:
    Do we already know how aoe damage / heals / buffs will work in open pvp?
    Let's say I find 2 (pvp-flagged) players A and B fighting somewhere in the wilderness. If I also attack A, will that turn B into a temporary ally? Or can I decide to attack both at the same time?
    Or let's say I I fight someone, using a ground target aoe dot. If another (pvp-flagged) player walks into it without attacking me, will he instantly take damage from my skill? Or will I have to target him with some single target skill to show the system that I also want to fight him?
    And same for aoe heals and buffs. What happens if I use them next to players who are fighting each other? Or will those support skills be limited to target group members only?
    I am basing this off Lineage 2's flagging system in which this system is based off of. They may come up with another method but most likely it will work as follows:

    If player A and B are both flagged and fighting, you attack with AOE, you will hit both targets assuming both are within range. The way to NOT attack one of the two players is for them to be in your party.

    Same scenario, If player B is in your party and you cast aoe on both player A and player B; Only player A will be hit by the attack

    I can't imagine it working much differently just do to the fact of the game having no clue who your ally is unless they are in your party.

    Odds are if it's not a single target buff, it will be a party buff. I don't imagine a buff that is just AOE, party or not. I have played L2 with classes that buffed if you were in range and in the same guild, THAT is pretty cool. Also, if you buff or heal a player while they are "flagged", I am willing to bet that will flag you also

    Now, in Lineage 2 in order to attack another player you needed to hold Cntrl while attacking. This was implemented to prevent you from accidentally attacking a player because you meant to click on a mob instead. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something similar here.... In fact I really hope they do.

  • ValerianValerian Member
    I hope your corruption level does not decay while offline, cause then people will be logging off as soon as they gank someone, only to log back on a few hours later to have their corruption erased. That won't be good for bounty hunters since they won't see any corrupt players on the map as much.
  • KratzKratz Member alpha-0-rank
    I personally can't imagine any players logging off for a few hours just to avoid corruption. I simply wouldn't have that kind of time to throw away in a day. The only exception would be to PK someone just before I go to sleep. .......hmmmm :cookie:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  
  • ValerianValerian Member
    Ok but wouldn't it be smart to turn off the corruption timer when you log off?
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bounty hunter via quest only available in Miltitary nodes sounds not quite true since Clerics can detect corruption.
  • DygzDygz Member ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kratz said:
    I personally can't imagine any players logging off for a few hours just to avoid corruption. I simply wouldn't have that kind of time to throw away in a day. The only exception would be to PK someone just before I go to sleep. .......hmmmm :cookie:
    If I enjoyed ganking people I would have several zombie alts dedicated to that activity.
    The majority of my time would be spent playing my non-corrupted main character.
  • Iscoed1815Iscoed1815 Member ✭✭✭
    That's why the corruption needs to be so severe, so after say 5 or 6 ganks, your character is basically unplayable, movement is slowed right down, your mount won't let you ride them, and in fact runs off and won't return until your back to normal, your regen is negative, so in fact your dying all the time.  On top of city/town guards "killing on sight", this should deter most gankers.
  • SovorackSovorack Member alpha-0-rank
    if you attack a non-combatment, do you get insta-flagged? Or only when he/she dies?

    Reason I ask is: what would happen if you attack a non-combatment and because (s)he's not fighting back you move on without killing him/her.

  • lexmaxlexmax Moderator mod
    Sovorack said:
    if you attack a non-combatment, do you get insta-flagged? Or only when he/she dies?

    Reason I ask is: what would happen if you attack a non-combatment and because (s)he's not fighting back you move on without killing him/her.
    You only get flagged corrupt if you kill a non-combatant without them fighting back, so it gives you a bit of grace if you're looking to engage in "meaningful" combat rather than just gank.

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