Group Size/Livestream

ArchivedUser

I think there is one other dev quote where Steven mentions "controlling the narrative".
And should be one where they discuss when the dungeons disappear.
I'll try to look for those this weekend.

ArchivedUser

@Dygz

Thanks for finding the quotes. I do not nesecarily take that to mean we won't have your typical instance dungeons that are run over and over again for loot but can see your perspective on how it could mean exactly what you are saying.  All the quotes posted could just as easily point to having some instance dungeons that are run over and over to try and do well on leaderboards. These leader boards could have all kinds of stats or goals we just don't really know yet. I am sure we will know for sure as we get closer to the alpha that KS backers can play in.

ArchivedUser

@Dygz yeah what @Sintu said. Also typically instanced dungeons in other games are used to tell a part/finale of a narrative. They've also confirmed there will be instanced dungeons and more than few. Now we still don't know about the repeatability of those dungeons. I'm sure some parts are instanced so they can do neat mechanics to tell an awesome fight, then leave the rest to open world. Like a mix between the both to get the best of everything. Since we know they want to do a bit more than your typical dungeon.

But nonetheless thanks for finding the quote. I also remember them saying the part about stuff could disappear because of the narrative and deleveling nodes. Anyway good job @Dygz

ArchivedUser

I didn't say that that there won't be any instanced dungeons with repeatable content.
Let's return to the original context:

Nevithan: The problem with a relative big group size of 8 people is that the chance of problems increase significantly.

The upside is that there will probably be need for an off-tank/healer and dps-support roles in certain situations. 

Random groups will be pure madness, just imagine running with 7 guys who dont know the boss mechanics and perform their role mediocre..

Dygz:  We will rarely know the boss mechanics since instanced dungeons/raids will be rare and repeatable dungeons/raids even rarer.

My point in response to Neviathan is that the common case isn't going to be static, repeatable, instanced dungeons that stick around long enough that everyone should be expected to know the boss mechanics or know the specific roles best suited for the dungeon.

There will be mechanics that need to be learned through trial and error - especially before a boss is defeated.
But the common case will not be that the defeated boss respawns in the same dungeon for those who have already defeated it to defeat it over and over.
Or even respawn so that different parties can return to the dungeon and kill the defeated boss.
The common case will be that we defeat the dungeon and it's repopulated and/or it moves to a different location. 
Because the common case will be that the dungeons exist for a purpose more meaningful to the Narrative than players trying to defeat the dungeon the fastest in order to reach the top of a leaderboard.

Dungeons that we can repeat like a daily to the degree that people can be upset because someone doesn't know the boss mechanics or the specific utilities best suited for physical challenges, like traps and secret doors, are going to be rare compared to previous MMORPGs.

ArchivedUser

Did not mean that you had said there won't be instanced dungeons. I just wrote what we know is confirmed (so far, could change) and expanded on what I think they'll do with those instanced parts and why they are instanced.

But from all we've dug up it seems they won't be as rare as you originally thought, but more part of a mixed system with open and instanced parts. Boss mechanics will probably be leaked online when a server discovers one boss and after a while we'll start getting info when more and more is discovered and unlocked.

Edit Update: Hmm well I think I disagree there, from what they've said about dungeons it seems they'll be somewhat repeatable as long as they are unlocked. Mostly so you can help friends that haven't done the dungeon yet, and I doubt they'll let one group clear a whole dungeon, then never let anyone on the server see that place. They might have rare mobs that could be a one time kill. Definitely in the open world section and they have mentioned one time kill bosses in the world. The instanced parts will probably be repeatable though. I guess we'll see in the betas.

ArchivedUser

TheCouchNerd said:

I know the devs have said that choices made by the playerbase will decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node, or if something else is discovered there.

We also don't know if you can unlock the same dungeon someplace else? Or if it only can be unlocked near one specific unique node.

Let's say it only can be that (unlocked near one specific unique node). I'd still doubt they would spend that much resources on developing it, just so you can only do it once, and also, why develope a leaderboard system, if they've want dungeons not to be repeatable? What's the point with having a leaderboard/scoreboard system then?

I just wanted to return to this for a moment.
It's not really that players decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node.
It's not an option that players literally choose.

Dungeons appear in response to player choices like which buildings get built, but we aren't intended to know that a dungeon will appear as a result of building those buildings.
As villages expand into cities and metropolises, the growth of the nodes will awaken dormant mobs and bosses.
The growth of a city might awaken a dragon and that dragon will be associated with a dungeon, but that doesn't mean that we get to kill that same dragon over and over and over again so that we can reach the top of the leaderboards.
Because our actions and adventures are intended to impact the world and cause meaningful change to the Narrative.
Not just have static content that we repeat over and over.

Again, I'm not saying we will never have repeatable content.
I'm saying that repeatable content where everyone is expected to know the boss mechanics, because everyone is expected to have completed the boss fight at least once, will be rare.

(It might turn out that we will know which buildings trigger a dungeon for cities built at the same node on different servers - if we're able to wiki the details of our experiences sufficiently. Doesn't necessarily mean the dungeons will have the exact same mobs in the exact same order.)

But these are great details for us to try to get the devs to (re-) confirm.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

TheCouchNerd said:

I know the devs have said that choices made by the playerbase will decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node, or if something else is discovered there.

We also don't know if you can unlock the same dungeon someplace else? Or if it only can be unlocked near one specific unique node.

Let's say it only can be that (unlocked near one specific unique node). I'd still doubt they would spend that much resources on developing it, just so you can only do it once, and also, why develope a leaderboard system, if they've want dungeons not to be repeatable? What's the point with having a leaderboard/scoreboard system then?

I just wanted to return to this for a moment.
It's not really that players decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node.
It's not an option that players literally choose.

Dungeons appear in response to player choices like which buildings get built, but we aren't intended to know that a dungeon will appear as a result of building those buildings.
As villages expand into cities and metropolises, the growth of the nodes will awaken dormant mobs and bosses.
The growth of a city might awaken a dragon and that dragon will be associated with a dungeon, but that doesn't mean that we get to kill that same dragon over and over and over again so that we can reach the top of the leaderboards.
Because our actions and adventures are intended to impact the world and cause meaningful change to the Narrative.
Not just have static content that we repeat over and over.

I know didn't I say that?

"We know dungeons get discovered by unlocking certain steps in a nodes development, we also know the node type will decide what content that dungeon could have (monster types, what wings will be open etc)"

That info can be found in the google doc.
Update: here's the info from the doc.

How will dungeons be affected by or affect node development and progression?

• Certain dungeons and other points of interest across the map will all be affected by the server’s node development. Some dungeons will only be unlocked if nodes are developed to certain stages. The storyline objectives for players inside dungeons will also be dependent on the story arc paths chosen through the node system. The drop tables in area and dungeons will also be tied into the progression of certain areas. For example, let’s say that the humans have developed a node in Region A, and a storyline has opened up that leads players to inspect the ruins (dungeon) of a nearby area. And let’s say that this node was developed in a scientific (crafting) zone… Well before the node developed, this dungeon was accessible… But now the dungeon has propagated new monster assets that include a drop table catering to a crafting emphasis because of the development of that scientific node. And perhaps, a new boss appears in different rooms of the dungeon that includes different adventure quest starts, like a mysterious item with a storyline that can only be progressed if a node develops to the metropolis stage in a certain region, across the world. Our system is so vast, when it comes to interconnectivity and how the world reacts to the players, it is difficult to explain in one Q&A, which is why we will have very in-depth developer’s blogs as we move further into our development.

Edit Update: And just to make myself clear, just because I say a dungeon will be repeatable, I don't need mean it will be like your typical wow dungeon. We know dungeons will be more dynamic in Ashes, with reasons to go back and redo them besides helping friends or do leaderboards. We know new stuff could be unlocked when a node develops or a narrative opens up. So yes I believe the instanced parts will be repeatable, but for how long that's undecided since the world changes. And we've already seen similar stuff but much more basic in other mmos when they redo a dungeon and the old one is lost. Hope that clarifies it more, sorry if im unclear sometimes, English is not my native tongue.

ArchivedUser

TheCouchNerd said:

Dygz said:

TheCouchNerd said:

I know the devs have said that choices made by the playerbase will decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node, or if something else is discovered there.

Let's say it only can be that (unlocked near one specific unique node). I'd still doubt they would spend that much resources on developing it, just so you can only do it once, and also, why develop a leaderboard system, if they've want dungeons not to be repeatable? What's the point with having a leaderboard/scoreboard system then?

I just wanted to return to this for a moment.
It's not really that players decide if a dungeon is discovered near a node.
It's not an option that players literally choose.

I know didn't I say that?

"We know dungeons get discovered by unlocking certain steps in a nodes development, we also know the node type will decide what content that dungeon could have (monster types, what wings will be open etc)"

Ah. I needed your clarification to reinterpret my initial reading of what you wrote.
I had a problem parsing who "they" was intended to reference with regard to spending resources developing it.
 I read it as "they" (the playerbase) deciding if a dungeon is discovered in a nearby node and spending node resources to make the dungeon appear.

You meant "they" (the devs) spending time and effort to design and implement a dungeon that can only be completed once.

The answer to the question of why the devs would design the dungeons as they are way is because, primarily, the repeatable part will be re-entering the dungeon in order to learn the mechanics of the dungeon before we are able to complete it, rather than repeating the completed dungeon to improve performance and gain a higher place on the leaderboards.
Their expectation is that we won't always be able to defeat the dungeon/boss.
Often, we will have to retreat and review tactics or wipe.  
Sometimes we will have to make the boss go dormant. Sometimes we will have to appease the boss via non-combat methods. Sometimes we may be fighting other players over who gets to hunt in that dungeon.
And, even, after we defeat the mobs and bosses, the dungeon will likely repopulate with different mobs and bosses.

Again, the context of my reply to Nevithan was not that we can't enter the dungeon repeatedly, rather it was that we will rarely be repeating the content in the dungeon such that everyone in a random pick-up group should be expected to know the boss mechanics for that iteration of the dungeon.

TheCouchNerd said:

Edit Update: And just to make myself clear, just because I say a dungeon will be repeatable, I don't need mean it will be like your typical wow dungeon. We know dungeons will be more dynamic in Ashes, with reasons to go back and redo them besides helping friends or do leaderboards. We know new stuff could be unlocked when a node develops or a narrative opens up. So yes I believe the instanced parts will be repeatable, but for how long that's undecided since the world changes. And we've already seen similar stuff but much more basic in other mmos when they redo a dungeon and the old one is lost. Hope that clarifies it more, sorry if im unclear sometimes, English is not my native tongue.

I think, at this point, we probably mostly agree, but...

I believe that most of the dungeons will be open world rather than instanced.
We will commonly be repeating the dungeon, but once the boss has been defeated, we won't be repeating that content or repeating that boss. Instead that dungeon will have different challenges and mobs and bosses with different mechanics we will have to learn to defeat.
It will be rare or uncommon that we're in an instanced dungeon repeatedly killing the same boss in order to get a higher placement on the leaderboard.
Such that everyone in a random pick-up group should be expected to know the boss mechanics.
I'm being very specific about what I mean by "not repeating the dungeon".

We're in agreement about instanced dungeons existing.
We're in agreement about repeatable content in certain dungeons that have instancing.
We may not be in agreement about the frequency of instanced dungeons. I'm not sure.

But, I think it's fine.
We've shared enough dev quotes to illustrate our understandings of the game design.
We can probably just wait for more details from the devs to nail down the nuances.

ArchivedUser

Yeah I think what we don't agree on is that I think we will be able to kill an instanced boss more than once and you think not? Is that correct? The rest we seem to agree on. Well beta will let us know  

ArchivedUser

Nocht said:

I'm hoping that dungeons will have different levels, as in a party of eight can split into groups of four and cover different areas of the dungeon to accomplish different tasks/take down different monsters to trigger things in the dungeon.. constantly communicating due to some areas having some kind of effect on the others. I just want something different from the typical, "go to first room -> kill boss -> second room -> kill boss -> 3rd room -> kill boss -> finish". Hmm.. seems I'm recalling Log Horizon.

I really like the way you're thinking here.  Reminds me of FF3 where you have two groups that need to open doors for each other.  Also in WoW Thorim had a gauntlet that half the group had to clear while the other half held the arena.  Naxx also had a fight where the group was split. 

ArchivedUser

One thing that I hope they do is make non-skippable "trash mobs". The ridiculous lengths people go to skip encounters and run straight to the boss in almost every mmo out there is laughable. Make mobs mean something rather than have just random trash standing around in an area for no reason. I always wonder about those two guys who have been standing there for years just watching groups of adventurers jump over rocks just out of there range of "maybe we should go check that out" are thinking. "Hey, it is your turn to go stand in the tunnel for no reason for hours on end."

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

We will rarely know the boss mechanics since instanced dungeons/raids will be rare and repeatable dungeons/raids even rarer.
And, I'm not sure who will be deciding what a character's role is.

In Ashes, we shouldn't really have to rely much on PUGs.
Since we will be living in a town/city that we continue support -especially if we are citizens- we should be very familiar with the other characters supporting the town.
We should know who like to group with, how they like to play, where in town they live and the time they are likely to be online.

We should expect to not know what group config is best when we first encounter a dungeon or raid.
And expect that we might need to return to town without completing the dungeon in order to recruit other people who have the specific skills and abilities needed for that specific dungeon or raid.

Maybe not at first but when a town reaches metropolis status dungeons will be done several times. Also the devs wont make hundreds of different boss mechanics, its simply not possible with a small team. So its save to assume certain types of bosses will have certain mechanics. 

PUGs are basically out of the question if the game is somewhat difficult. Thats good news for hardcore gamers but bad news for casual players. Personally I like to share my knowledge when I run with an inexperienced group so they learn something that makes them better players. I just hope casual players arent discouraged to run dungeons because its often the best content.

ArchivedUser

Neviathan said:

The problem with a relative big group size of 8 people is that the chance of problems increase significantly.

The upside is that there will probably be need for an off-tank/healer and dps-support roles in certain situations. 

Random groups will be pure madness, just imagine running with 7 guys who dont know the boss mechanics and perform their role mediocre..

This is something I like.
The bigger group size, puts in a bigger "allowance" for non optimal group setups.
If this is done right, it will encourage people (yeah right) to actually be more patient with new people and allow those new people a more relaxed environment to learn the ropes.

I have big hopes for this game, and I hope it will bring back a better community sense than the games of the last decade lacks. 

This and Pantheon is my hopes for mmorpgs... however, since I'm not so patient it's a shame both games are so far away from release yet