I don't see why not. If you are escorting your goods in a caravan with npc guards some one who has chosen to be a cleric is going to have little to no influence on the defense without being able to heal the guards. That goes for any support class really.
I think PJ has hit the nail on the head. It would also make caravan raids more interesting because a smaller coordinated defence group could hold out against a larger zerg and that would bring a lot of adrenaline to the mix.
I don't see why not. If you are escorting your goods in a caravan with npc guards some one who has chosen to be a cleric is going to have little to no influence on the defense without being able to heal the guards. That goes for any support class really.
I must disagree on one part of your statement. Healers and other support classes will have as much impact as dps people. Who do you think will keep them standing?
@CylverRayne No disrespect to support classes men't I was referring to the situation where a support class is solo guarding a caravan with NPC guards. A dps toon will have far more impact on the out come of an attack on the caravan dps wise than a healer. however if the healer can heal the guards that combination Healer & guards will be better than dps & guards. Does that make more sense?
I think all NPC's should be valid targets for buffs/heals.
I also think undead enemies should take damage from heals and purification spells. Go full FF cheese strats when you use a Pheonix Down on an undead for insta-victory.
Absolutely players should be able to heal NPCs. PJ has covered the main PvP concern, but lets focus on PvE for a moment. Lets look strictly at a boss encounter where you can't let a friendly NPC die or you fail the fight. You can't control a NPC to move it out of ground effects or abilities that a player could otherwise avoid. The only way to keep it alive at that point is to heal it.
And yes I realize this is mainly a PvP discussion but the same principle applies.
Cant argue with the logic or the premise. NPC are at the end of the day supposed to be AI versions of players. Shield, buff, hot, dots.....I see no reason that shouldnt apply. The only requirement is that NPC are citizen, alliance, guild tagged etc. This ensures enemy, friend and neutral NPC can be determined.
Absolutely players should be able to heal NPCs. PJ has covered the main PvP concern, but lets focus on PvE for a moment. Lets look strictly at a boss encounter where you can't let a friendly NPC die or you fail the fight. You can't control a NPC to move it out of ground effects or abilities that a player could otherwise avoid. The only way to keep it alive at that point is to heal it.
And yes I realize this is mainly a PvP discussion but the same principle applies.
Yes it did turn out as mainly a pvp question but I most certainly agree with you. This too had crossed my mind before I made the poll.
@CylverRayne No disrespect to support classes men't I was referring to the situation where a support class is solo guarding a caravan with NPC guards. A dps toon will have far more impact on the out come of an attack on the caravan dps wise than a healer. however if the healer can heal the guards that combination Healer & guards will be better than dps & guards. Does that make more sense?
I'd like to add to what PJ said in terms of node sieges:
@CylverRayne No disrespect to support classes men't I was referring to the situation where a support class is solo guarding a caravan with NPC guards. A dps toon will have far more impact on the out come of an attack on the caravan dps wise than a healer. however if the healer can heal the guards that combination Healer & guards will be better than dps & guards. Does that make more sense?
Lexmax beat me to it, with the heavy role NPCs will play in the node mechanics, and as the node mechanics are a major portion of the "end game" (maybe it would be better to say max level content than endgame), I think archetype balance would be thrown off if you could not support/heal NPCs.
Specifically, if objectives are often related to killable NPCs, securing victory conditions would come down to how fast you can issue damage. Without am other defensive option, the only way to protect an NPC would be to burn down the DPS first, leaving DPS overemphasized in objective based PVP.
Not only do I think healers should be able to heal, but I think tanks should be able to protect NPCs just like players.
However, I do think that healing am NPC should flag you for PVP if you are not already flagged.
Awesome idea. Guild A)stages raid on dungeon clears all mobs and proceeds to boss. Guild hates guild A and runs in during the boss fight with a battalion of healers to heal said boss and slaughter guild A). Boss thanks guild B for their assistance against the wicked players of Guild A and rewards his new friends in guild B. I think I did play a game back in the day where something like this happened. Jerks would come and heal monsters I was fighting till I had to retreat lol.
Awesome idea. Guild A)stages raid on dungeon clears all mobs and proceeds to boss. Guild hates guild A and runs in during the boss fight with a battalion of healers to heal said boss and slaughter guild A). Boss thanks guild B for their assistance against the wicked players of Guild A and rewards his new friends in guild B. I think I did play a game back in the day where something like this happened. Jerks would come and heal monsters I was fighting till I had to retreat lol.
Yes, it is an exploitable mechanic that can be used for griefing, but only in pve games where you had separate pvp. As long as they make healing an npc or mob flag you purple then it shouldn't be an issue. Then as the person fighting the monster you get the option of fighting the monster and the healer. Not ideal, but solves the problem of healers standing there healing your opponents with no repercussions. The same flagging mechanic needs to be put in place for tanks who taunt monsters. Have seen individuals taunt world bosses to make them run to end of leash mechanics to heal back to full, taunt to get them out of position for mechanics, and for a final example taunt boss onto healers and other support. If it is allowed with no flagging mechanic, then people will do it "for the lulz!"
Awesome idea. Guild A)stages raid on dungeon clears all mobs and proceeds to boss. Guild hates guild A and runs in during the boss fight with a battalion of healers to heal said boss and slaughter guild A). Boss thanks guild B for their assistance against the wicked players of Guild A and rewards his new friends in guild B. I think I did play a game back in the day where something like this happened. Jerks would come and heal monsters I was fighting till I had to retreat lol.
Yes, it is an exploitable mechanic that can be used for griefing, but only in pve games where you had separate pvp. As long as they make healing an npc or mob flag you purple then it shouldn't be an issue. Then as the person fighting the monster you get the option of fighting the monster and the healer. Not ideal, but solves the problem of healers standing there healing your opponents with no repercussions. The same flagging mechanic needs to be put in place for tanks who taunt monsters. Have seen individuals taunt world bosses to make them run to end of leash mechanics to heal back to full, taunt to get them out of position for mechanics, and for a final example taunt boss onto healers and other support. If it is allowed with no flagging mechanic, then people will do it "for the lulz!"
I've seen someone pull a world boss that could just about 1 shot into a town... in a full loot game
Awesome idea. Guild A)stages raid on dungeon clears all mobs and proceeds to boss. Guild hates guild A and runs in during the boss fight with a battalion of healers to heal said boss and slaughter guild A). Boss thanks guild B for their assistance against the wicked players of Guild A and rewards his new friends in guild B. I think I did play a game back in the day where something like this happened. Jerks would come and heal monsters I was fighting till I had to retreat lol.
So long as healing an NPC flags you, this won't be any worse than following the opposing guild and attacking them when their health is low.
The mechanic you describe might actually be a relevant choice in node vs node conflicts. If two nodes are at war, and a powerful world boss spawns in one, they may need to kill it (based on descriptions of world bosses from the devs). The other node should be able to defend that boss.
I like this idea a lot, and some of my prior favorite quest from other games have started off with a mortally wounded NPC. That might be harder in an MMO with multiple players trying to achieve the same quest line, but if possible it would be fun.
At first I wanted to disagree with the whole "if you heal you should be flagged" point of view. But many good arguments were made and I also support that healers in PvP & PvE that interject themselves into a combat to heal should be treated as combatants.
I am still not a fan of healing mobs/bosses. If this was possible it would be done. My play style relies are careful resource management. If I go into a dungeon and make it to the boss all Han Solo style with just one heal potion left, and some player heals the boss back to full, I would be less disappointed if the player just ganked me at that point.
On a double standard level I would want to be able to heal wildlife that was trying to escape a hunter. To be fair I would vote for not being able to heal mob/boss/wildlife .
Awesome idea. Guild A)stages raid on dungeon clears all mobs and proceeds to boss. Guild hates guild A and runs in during the boss fight with a battalion of healers to heal said boss and slaughter guild A). Boss thanks guild B for their assistance against the wicked players of Guild A and rewards his new friends in guild B. I think I did play a game back in the day where something like this happened. Jerks would come and heal monsters I was fighting till I had to retreat lol.
So long as healing an NPC flags you, this won't be any worse than following the opposing guild and attacking them when their health is low.
The mechanic you describe might actually be a relevant choice in node vs node conflicts. If two nodes are at war, and a powerful world boss spawns in one, they may need to kill it (based on descriptions of world bosses from the devs). The other node should be able to defend that boss.
That was another part of the thought process as well. We had the conversation about players being able to lose encounters that I commented on. My point wasn't so much about griefing as winning by any means necessary. Lets say guild A has been raiding guild B's caravans and guild B isn't strong enough to stand up to guild A. This is a way for guild B to use whatever means are at their disposal to punish guild A.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Why can't this apply to npc's as well? Can the devs make it so a boss differentiates between players that hurt it and those who help it and have it bring up a dialogue with them instead of attacking them after the offending party is destroyed? Maybe the mob isn't smart enough to have a detailed conversation but some kind of scripted dialog shouldn't be too unachievable. If its a world boss maybe its coded to strike a mutually beneficial deal with the guild who helped it? "We'll continue to heal you if you goto this node and fight against its players with us?"
Now if its an individual player out being a douche healing crappy mobs I completely agree flag him for "x" amount of time because I'm going to run from the encounter if I can't win it then I'm going to stomp him into the dirt or return the favor. My overall point is to add another layer of depth to this game though.
There was talk about a few uber guilds owning all the metropolis and the game becoming stagnant. This is a way that the smaller guilds could band together AND the developers help those underdogs inject a little conflict if the server did become stagnant. I personally feel the stagnation should be an issue because people may like the status quo but there are always a few rebels who desire to be the kingpin themselves. I myself don't care to lead but a little anarchy always makes me feel better.
I like this idea a lot, and some of my prior favorite quest from other games have started off with a mortally wounded NPC. That might be harder in an MMO with multiple players trying to achieve the same quest line, but if possible it would be fun.
At first I wanted to disagree with the whole "if you heal you should be flagged" point of view. But many good arguments were made and I also support that healers in PvP & PvE that interject themselves into a combat to heal should be treated as combatants.
I am still not a fan of healing mobs/bosses. If this was possible it would be done. My play style relies are careful resource management. If I go into a dungeon and make it to the boss all Han Solo style with just one heal potion left, and some player heals the boss back to full, I would be less disappointed if the player just ganked me at that point.
On a double standard level I would want to be able to heal wildlife that was trying to escape a hunter. To be fair I would vote for not being able to heal mob/boss/wildlife .
The devs have said that you can't zerg a boss encounter in a dungeon so I'm going to have to say its highly doubtful that you're going to be able to Yoda your way through any boss encounter in any dungeon. Dungeon bosses will require strategy and tactics and brute strength will not work. This is a community based game and the devs have said that they are planning to incorporate a 8 man group. They've further said that each of the 8 archetypes will play a necessary role in dungeon encounters. If you can solo a dungeon by yourself and beat the boss no matter how many potions you can carry then the devs have obviously screwed up somewhere along the way.
If you want to be a tree hugging hippy I support your ability to heal escaping wildlife. I also support that hunter turning you into a pin cushion then chasing down and killing that poor wildlife. I support him taking all of your cash and some of your gear for interjecting yourself into his affairs.
@Dominus KuukIf you want to be a tree hugging hippy I support your ability to heal escaping wildlife. I also support that hunter turning you into a pin cushion then chasing down and killing that poor wildlife. I support him taking all of your cash and some of your gear for interjecting yourself into his affairs.
Just want to make sure that regardless of flagging that you understand you will NOT be able to loot currency (confirmed in Q&A) and unless the healer happened to be flagged "Red", even then he has a small chance of having a piece or pieces of gear destroyed, not looted.
Comments
I also think undead enemies should take damage from heals and purification spells. Go full FF cheese strats when you use a Pheonix Down on an undead for insta-victory.
And yes I realize this is mainly a PvP discussion but the same principle applies.
NPC are at the end of the day supposed to be AI versions of players.
Shield, buff, hot, dots.....I see no reason that shouldnt apply.
The only requirement is that NPC are citizen, alliance, guild tagged etc.
This ensures enemy, friend and neutral NPC can be determined.
Allowing healers to heal the node's defensive NPCs would add more dynamics to the fight. Making it less of a "DPS race".
Specifically, if objectives are often related to killable NPCs, securing victory conditions would come down to how fast you can issue damage. Without am other defensive option, the only way to protect an NPC would be to burn down the DPS first, leaving DPS overemphasized in objective based PVP.
Not only do I think healers should be able to heal, but I think tanks should be able to protect NPCs just like players.
However, I do think that healing am NPC should flag you for PVP if you are not already flagged.
The mechanic you describe might actually be a relevant choice in node vs node conflicts. If two nodes are at war, and a powerful world boss spawns in one, they may need to kill it (based on descriptions of world bosses from the devs). The other node should be able to defend that boss.
At first I wanted to disagree with the whole "if you heal you should be flagged" point of view. But many good arguments were made and I also support that healers in PvP & PvE that interject themselves into a combat to heal should be treated as combatants.
I am still not a fan of healing mobs/bosses. If this was possible it would be done. My play style relies are careful resource management. If I go into a dungeon and make it to the boss all Han Solo style with just one heal potion left, and some player heals the boss back to full, I would be less disappointed if the player just ganked me at that point.
On a double standard level I would want to be able to heal wildlife that was trying to escape a hunter. To be fair I would vote for not being able to heal mob/boss/wildlife .
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Why can't this apply to npc's as well? Can the devs make it so a boss differentiates between players that hurt it and those who help it and have it bring up a dialogue with them instead of attacking them after the offending party is destroyed? Maybe the mob isn't smart enough to have a detailed conversation but some kind of scripted dialog shouldn't be too unachievable. If its a world boss maybe its coded to strike a mutually beneficial deal with the guild who helped it? "We'll continue to heal you if you goto this node and fight against its players with us?"
Now if its an individual player out being a douche healing crappy mobs I completely agree flag him for "x" amount of time because I'm going to run from the encounter if I can't win it then I'm going to stomp him into the dirt or return the favor. My overall point is to add another layer of depth to this game though.
There was talk about a few uber guilds owning all the metropolis and the game becoming stagnant. This is a way that the smaller guilds could band together AND the developers help those underdogs inject a little conflict if the server did become stagnant. I personally feel the stagnation should be an issue because people may like the status quo but there are always a few rebels who desire to be the kingpin themselves. I myself don't care to lead but a little anarchy always makes me feel better.
If you want to be a tree hugging hippy I support your ability to heal escaping wildlife. I also support that hunter turning you into a pin cushion then chasing down and killing that poor wildlife. I support him taking all of your cash and some of your gear for interjecting yourself into his affairs.
Freedom with repercussions is what I'm all about.
Just want to make sure that regardless of flagging that you understand you will NOT be able to loot currency (confirmed in Q&A) and unless the healer happened to be flagged "Red", even then he has a small chance of having a piece or pieces of gear destroyed, not looted.