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Should Healers be able to heal NPCs?

2

Comments

  • Any healer or player who aids another in PvP combat by healing or buffs should definitely be flagged just as anyone else who would use dps to help.  It's also a fair playing field. 
      
    Healing any type PvE npc opens up an explosive chance of explioits.

  • Karthos said:
    This is the most unanimous vote I've ever seen. 
    Now you have jinxed it.
    I beg to differ!
  • They should be able to heal any NPC period, as long as they are either targeted, or within the zone of an aoe heal.
  • I would definitely say yes to this as I would do it all the time during events that required NPCs to stay alive in many different mmos. Now if those NPCs were under attack by players I hope that it would flag them as otherwise it would be rather silly. It looks like we are almost unanimous on the poll so far so yay!
  • They'd have to make sure percent based healing on like, city raid boss defenders isn't too zany. But it'd be super immersion breaking to not be able to heal npcs.
  • @Dominus Kuuk I think the developers have indicated that solo play is feasible. So there will likely be some boss content for solo's. I could be wrong. I am not saying Solo play should be able to take out all bosses and I am a supporter of the 8 man group. I will likely only be solo when hunting/gathering/crafting, but I think my point remains unchanged. I would rather a player PK me than help a boss monster PK me, one seems more honorable to me. The other seems shady and backhanded, imo.

    I do agree with you and your hunter example, if I heal the creature or otherwise help it escape the hunter should be able to, and should, treat me like a dirty poacher. I don't think they will be able to loot anything but "materials," which I also support. If they could steal/raid/confiscate everything I had this would be a different type of game, read as survival.

    I was trying to indicate that if the option was heal everything meaning "NPC's, mobs, anything alive" or "NPC's only" I would likely vote NPC's only.
  • It depends. I would hate to see a primary tactic of a siege being 10 healers AOE healing NPC guards that lay waste to other players. Of course stuff like this gets tweaked in alpha / beta. We shall see. 
  • In most games, if you heal a guard or any npc, you'd get flagged for pvp. Reason is if there is a raid going on the guards would attack the raiders and you could heal them without being flagged, it'd take overwhelming damage to take anything down.
  • Yes, they absolutely should, not only that, but if npcs that defend a caravan are healed, and the healer in question said. "No I do not want to get involved" Healing the npc's should flag the healer for the attacking side. But I see absolutely no reason why they should not be able to.

    I'll even go one further, I think, certain types of creatures, I'll use a zombie as an example. Should be healable, but rather than being healed, take damage. 
  • does healing a Raidboss count too? 
    (on some random L2 private server we used to heal raidbosses to denie enemy guilds the loot, was hilarious xD)

  • Roxx said:
    does healing a Raidboss count too? 
    (on some random L2 private server we used to heal raidbosses to denie enemy guilds the loot, was hilarious xD)

    I'd say so, yes. Interaction like that is what makes world bosses a lot more fun than instanced raid bosses. At least in my opinion. A degree of uncertainty always spices things up y'know?
  • Roxx said:
    does healing a Raidboss count too? 
    (on some random L2 private server we used to heal raidbosses to denie enemy guilds the loot, was hilarious xD)

    I purposely asked about healing NPC guards in sieges.  Anything more such as pvp bosses or mobs are too open for exploitation and griefing. .  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Two options:

    1. If NPC guards are normal HP, like players and can be soloed same like other players, then YES players should be able to heal them.

    2. If NPC guards have high HP like mini bosses, and easily kill players, then NO, players should absolutely not be able to heal them.


    Also the question is what will the respawn time on NPC guards be. Things need to be balanced.
  • Gothix said:
    Two options:

    1. If NPC guards are normal HP, like players and can be soloed same like other players, then YES players should be able to heal them.

    2. If NPC guards are raid mini bosses, with abnormal HP, and 2 shoting players, then NO, players should absolutely not be able to heal them.


    Also the question is what will the respawn time on NPC guards be. Things need to be balanced.
    In a PVP siege on a node or caravan, guards should be considered party of the "group" being attacked.  If they die they should NOT be able to respawn.  

    The question was about NPC siege guards that defend the caravans or nodes, not raid bosses.  Of course they should not be healed unless by another npc.  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    CylverRayne said:

    The question was about NPC siege guards that defend the caravans or nodes, not raid bosses.  Of course they should not be healed unless by another npc.  
    What I meant was, If NPC guards have high HP (like bosses) and are not easily killed, then they should not be allowed to be healer by players.

    (I'll edit for clarity)
  • Healers should be able to heal any kind of NPC/mob  >:)
  • Lucie said:
    Healers should be able to heal any kind of NPC/mob  >:)
    Only if you're into exploits. 
  • Lucie said:
    Healers should be able to heal any kind of NPC/mob  >:)
    Only if you're into exploits. 
    Provided there is proper flagging, I cant see how healing any mob would be any different  than DPS shooting random players in said encounter.

    Gothix said:
    CylverRayne said:

    The question was about NPC siege guards that defend the caravans or nodes, not raid bosses.  Of course they should not be healed unless by another npc.  
    What I meant was, If NPC guards have high HP (like bosses) and are not easily killed, then they should not be allowed to be healer by players.

    (I'll edit for clarity)
    Could you elaborate? I don't quite understand the logic behind this. Provided archetypes are balanced for PVP (since this is a PVP discussion) health contribution of healers should be on par with damage from DPS. You should only see an issue if there is an imbalance there.

    The only way I see this being an issue is if the NPC has outlandish damage reduction. The actual amount of health an NPC has doesn't matter, the healer would be contributing to the battle exactly as DPS would be.
  • I think it depends on the circumstances - probably griefing if I'm hunting mobs and someone else is healing a mob I'm fighting.
    Indirect PvP combat without fear of Corruption.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Dygz said:
    I think it depends on the circumstances - probably griefing if I'm hunting mobs and someone else is healing a mob I'm fighting.
    Indirect PvP combat without fear of Corruption.
    This is all comes down to proper mob flagging.  You should only be able to heal NPCs/mobs that are friendly to you.  I'd like to think caravan guards, quest mobs you need to keep alive, boss mobs you need to keep alive, etc. are all friendly units.  It's probably a safe assumption that mobs out in the world will be either hostile or neutral.  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    @Dominus Kuuk

    Yes. What if each NPC decided who was friend or foe. Either;
    1. By recording every individual player interaction (massive database)
    2. By NPC having dynamic enemies and allying with them makes you an enemy (small database)

    Taking 2 as the simplest option...perhaps rather than a karma system....an NPC or node allegiance system that will make you more or less a friend who may or may not merit aid. And if its dynamic, those allegiances may change from day to day.

    How does it matter if you come across a posse of 30 enemy players or 30 enemy NPCs ? How does it matter if the players heal and buff themselves or the NPC do ? How does it make any difference if a party is all NPC, all players or a mixture ?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Lucie said:
    Healers should be able to heal any kind of NPC/mob  >:)
    This is where an important distinction is made. Others have assumed that an NPC = anything not a player but that's simply not the case.

    NPC = Non Player Character (i.e. Usually representatives of our respective races that are controlled by the AI)

    Mob - A monster or other similar type of being that is placed into the world solely as an adversarial element.

    There of course will be notable exceptions to both sides but everything should be flagged as either an NPC or a Mob, not both.

    Can heal an NPC, can't heal a Mob.
  • NPC = Non Player Character (i.e. Usually representatives of our respective races that are controlled by the AI)

    Mob - A monster or other similar type of bring that is placed into the world solely as an adversarial element.
    Pedantic correction, Mob is short for Mobile (sometimes Mobile OBject). The term originated with MUDs and encompass both NPCs and non NPC monsters (anything that can move).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    Johndoe said:
    NPC = Non Player Character (i.e. Usually representatives of our respective races that are controlled by the AI)

    Mob - A monster or other similar type of bring that is placed into the world solely as an adversarial element.
    Pedantic correction, Mob is short for Mobile (sometimes Mobile OBject). The term originated with MUDs and encompass both NPCs and non NPC monsters (anything that can move).
    HA, to be honest I never even thought mob was an acronym for anything! I always thought it was some derivative of mob; as in gang and never pursued the etymology.

    That being said I think the term has evolved a bit since then to a specific group apart from NPCs
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    If guards will have same amount of HP, and deal same amount of damage like other normal players, then yes, players could heal them.

    If guards will be in any aspect more powerful than players, then no healing should not be allowed because this would create a great imbalance in encounter.

    I know that all PvE focused people just want their caravans safe and they will rip themselves apart voting PRO safety in any poll, even if it creates imbalance in defenders favor (this is what PvE players want).

    But if caravans are impossible (or very hard) to get robbed, game will become dramatically less fun, for PvP part of players at least.

    Sometimes I really wish there was more PvP oriented players in this forums. :(

    Every discussion is so much biased anti PvP, and pro safety.
  • It is a moot point till alpha anyways. They stated that the decision will come out of testing by players and will be tweaked accordingly. Healing of non-player objects that affects other players play has always been an exploitable activity that "smart" players always try to work around. The trick will be to find the balance that allows for healers to have a role, caravan raiding to have sufficient risk vs reward for both the players attacking and the players defending. They will probably have to balance it around something like group size. See a caravan with two guards, easy pickings. See one with 4 probably doable. See one with 8, most likely going to be a tough fight you may lose. This example is based on you having 4-8 people in your attacking group, vs a defending group of npc guards and half the number of players from the opposing group. It is going to be impossible to balance based off of archetype. It should be balanced for group activity. While there is always going to be some meta fotm that people run, it should be a pure buzzsaw for those that run up on it solo. Just like trying to take out an armored car in real life, you will need a group of same-minded criminals.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    NPCs? Yes. Mobs? No.

    They said theyll see in the future because they don't want e.g. guards to be the main line of defense.
    But what when 100% of players defending the node tat some moment will be healer specced clerics? They have to have a way to protect their node.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited July 2017
    Related image@Dominus Kuuk If you want to be a tree hugging hippy I support your ability to heal escaping wildlife. I also support that hunter turning you into a pin cushion then chasing down and killing that poor wildlife.  I support him taking all of your cash and some of your gear for interjecting yourself into his affairs.  

    Just want to make sure that regardless of flagging that you understand you will NOT be able to loot currency (confirmed in Q&A) and unless the healer happened to be flagged "Red", even then he has a small chance of having a piece or pieces of gear destroyed, not looted. 

    Its too early to definitively say this will be in or that won't be in.  The mind of developers have been known to change and considering this game isn't going to be released until as late as 2020 I would say there is plenty of time for things to change.  We are putting ideas and notions on these boards because nothing has been set in stone as of yet.  

    I was involved in a discussion on stealing in which I  supported the idea of not only being able to steal from npc's ala ESO but steal from players as well.  I don't support this because I'm a person that actually plays a thief but because I'm a person who wants the community to have the freedom to follow their own path.  The more freedom the community has the happier I will be as a player because that means the game has become more realistic and walks closer in hand with day to day life.  

    Is stealing from players something that would be appropriate?  Yup.  I can raid your caravan then tell me why I can't pick your pocket?  Seriously is it more likely for someone to steal from a guarded armored car or 1 person on the street?  Don't want all your hard earned gold stolen?  There's a funny thing in the game called banks.  Do you think Bill Gates strolls around with $20 million dollars in his pockets?  This is a player v player, guild v guild, and node v node game.  Stealing gold from players in an opposing node and adding those resources to your own nodes economy fits quite nicely just like sabotaging players in another nodes experience gaining endeavors.  
    This game doesn't operate in a vacuum for someone to get stronger means someone else should be getting weaker in the process.  

    One of my favorite games of all time was called Shadowbane which came out in 2003.  The motto of the game was play to crush and it was a full inventory loot pvp focused game. Once you left the starter area and headed to the mainland it was on like donkey kong.  I played a ranger so I could track and as I sat out  killing mobs earning gold and items I had to spam track every few minutes to see if any new names had popped up.  If someone that I hadn't seen on track came up I would stop killing and wait to see if they were about to roll through the spawns.  If they were a pk then I would toss on my fleet foot spell and it was a race back to the nearest city to cower next to the guards.  The farther you strayed from the city the greater the risk you faced.  If you weren't diligent then say goodbye to your gold. Shadowbane wasn't an item dependent game so they had no use for the junk weapons that you were picking up from the mobs. If you got killed you simply went back picked up the gear you had collected sold  it tossed the gold in the bank and started over again.  

    Shadowbane was a darker game which the developers have said AoC is.  Higher level monsters only spawned in certain areas which defined where the power guilds set down their cities.  Later in the game as a group your guilds "expeditionary" force would sneak into the territory of these guilds to "poach" their mobs for experience and loot.  Scouts and Rangers were essential because we both dpsed and watch track to see if the guild who's territory we were in were sending out a sweeper force or their own xp party.  When the track lit up with unknowns we would all gate back to our own city because the ability to go back home was the extent of the travel system in shadowbane as well.

    This is what I want AoC to be, a dangerous game that has me constantly looking over my shoulder.  I want to feel that at any given moment disaster can strike.  I want the rush of combat knowing if I lose at the very least my gold is going to be gone and whatever I had in my inventory of value is out the window because that is where the adrenaline rush comes from.  I want to have to make the decision at each moment do I go back to town with this awesome drop or do I dare continue hunting.  I want to race back to town shrieking in terror praying that I make it before that pk shuts me down.  I want to overcome his lame ass and dance on his lifeless body as I clean out his ill gotten gains.  I want to go back to my guild hall or local tavern and tell the tale of my impossible victory or humiliating defeat at the hands of that black hearted bastard.  I even salivate at the thought of that pk pretending to be friendly.  Partying with me and sharing in the danger then at the perfect moment sliding his daggers into my weakened back and cackling about it just being business as he strolls away.  Its a game its supposed to be dangerous, exciting, and fun.  I don't login to a game to feel safe and nurtured within its confines.  There are plenty of lame ass games like that on the market already.  

    It is early in the developmental process and I participated in the kickstart even though it ended less than 22 hours after I first heard about the game.  If in the coming months this game begins to mold itself into the gritty dangerous game I want I'll stay if not then I assume 4 months will be plenty of time for me to get bored and gravitate to a f2p game instead.






  • Dominus Kuuk said: "This is what I want AoC to be, a dangerous game that has me constantly looking over my shoulder.  I want to feel that at any given moment disaster can strike.  I want the rush of combat knowing if I lose at the very least my gold is going to be gone and whatever I had in my inventory of value is out the window because that is where the adrenaline rush comes from."

    I would prefer to not pay monthly for the need to constantly look over my shoulder. I think that mind set would prevent a community from growing. Everyone would be in guild and not trust anyone out of their guild or in general just be super paranoid. I would prefer to not HAVE to be in a guild to avoid going crazy with paranoia.

    I do agree with your point of not knowing what will or will not be in the game. I also respect you honestly stating that if Ashes doesn't go that way you will move on.
  • Dominus Kuuk

    In a may discord Q&A  before the kickstarter May 22:

    Thieves, would you be able to steal a small amount from other players?

    1. No, can’t steal from others.
    2. Will have more along the lines of stealing from communities / nodes.
      1. Might have a quest to steal an Item within the Scholar's academy. Will now be an enemy from the npc’s there.
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