I think the potions would take away from the experience the developers are trying to deliver, I also don't believe that world PvP inherently means it's going to be an all out gank fest.
Well said. We've all been ganked before. It's frustrating to say the least, but until we have actual hands on experience with the game, it's hard for me to criticize the dev's original vision for the game.
I understand people don't want to be forced to PvP, but at least try the game as the devs intended. The truth is we don't really know what PvP is going to look like yet.
It’s late for me and the heat is oppressive so I hope what I
say is coherent.
The potions you describe are well thought out. I would love to have that kind of protection
when I go out exploring or gathering. Who wouldn’t? I don’t see it as part of Ashes though. It takes away from the idea of meaningful
conflict and the whole concept of the game I would rather see a skill available in one of
the classes that enables you to detect someone in stealth close by.
Rogues and bounty
hunters should be able to sneak up on people in towns. Mining
areas will be fought over. Ashes
encourages working together with others.
You have the option of finding others to work with or hire others to
guard you.
I’ve said before I love PvE even though I’ve participated in
both. Ashes drew me for it’s ideals
and goals which makes both PvE and PvP dependent on one another so I am going
into this game with my eyes open.
This is the sort of reply I was expecting in regards to disagreement. I know some people will say that others have replied like this, but clearly I didn't feel they did.
I have tried to explain why it doesn't take away meaningful conflict. I don't know if I'm not being clear or if it's just a matter of perspective (I'm inclined to believe it's the former).
As far as stealth in cities, I suppose it depends on how strong the guards are. If you can kill another player in less than five seconds, effectively negating the threat of guards, that seems to be a problem with balance. Conversely, if you don't have a chance to kill another at all because the guards are god-tier, that negates meaningful conflict for PvP in cities. Either way, it negates meaningful conflict. It's been my experience that one or the other always happens. I've yet to see an actual balanced result.
As an instinctive avoider of PvP I do get @cazz' idea. I also see what others are saying about 'meaningful conflict' and the Dev's ideas for the spirit of the game. However, for the first time, I actually find myself wanting to attempt the PvP side of this game. Just to see how it works out for me in 'protecting my own' (node or metropolis, whatever) with others.
The 'community spirit' I'm hoping for is already being genuinely demonstrated in the way this discussion's being conducted so thoughtfully. So for once I dare to hope balanced PvP/PvE might become reality for me...but only time and gameplay will tell how this will work out, I think. And that's got to include the Devs really being willing to listen to all views.
Thank you. I have been trying to be civil about this, but I think some people saw me as being confrontational. I've never been good at being diplomatic. I'm better at speaking my mind and explaining my point.
And I agree about wanting to get involved with the PvP here. I am a Carebear, but I do get involved with PvP from time to time. I played ArcheAge during its open beta weekends. I got to max level. I participated in PvP a few times. Even started a few fights when someone was interfering with my questing and I knew the fight was heavily in my favor. There are days when I prefer to play without that stress of "is someone going to gank me". Even in Lineage 2 I preferred to leave other people alone.
Euch, once again I'm stuck in an unwanted quote box.
I am not at all a PvPer, it can be great fun in a group, but one on one....meh ...just suicide for myself.
Whilst I would use your item IF it existed in game.... I really don't expect the need will be there for it.
Think like a PvPer for a second.... ganking noobs has a place, but it gets boring VERY quickly... the excitement lies in the challenge of taking down someone with more skill... not having to spend all day trying to locate (in this very large world) randoms who might not actually have anything worthwhile to give yourself corruption. After all, inspection isn't going to be there, so attacking randoms will be more chancy than in other games anyway.
That's why I'd be expecting PvPers to end up :
- gathering in one area, possibly battlegrounds etc
- attacking people pointedly, ie because a node needs taking down, a guild, a caravan etc etc
and those kind of scenarios don't require you to stick around to die unless you want to.
But yes, in Ashe all of us carebears will die at the hands of others....possibly not as much though as would warrent a pvp 'force field' pot
But just random thoughts.
Yea, the way the forums work is wonky. I have a reply on this thread with nothing in it and I think I know how that happened (fighting with the forums to post a reply). lol
I get what you're saying. In WoW (i know, the aids of the MMO industry to some lol) I made a character on a PvP server with the sole intent of ganking people. I think that character has maybe two hours played time at max level for the expansion I her in. I hardly ever played on that server despite it being very heavily favored on the side I rolled on. So I understand the mindset of gankers. In fact, I defend ganking in most games with PvP because there's a way to avoid it by staying in cities or other safe areas. Even in Lineage 2 you're safe in cities. But it sounds like that safety net won't be quite as present here.
--- I've explained my idea and why I believe it would honor the Four Pillars the devs are building on. I really don't know how else to explain why it does. But it's clear I'm the only one that believes it does. So I give up trying to explain it and I'm going to let my thread die.
I just want to say, I do think it was a well thought out idea and i appreciate the amount of detail you put in and how you showed how you considered the pillars.
we can't always agree, but we can respect the effort!
Please don't take it to heart, the community seems a little quiet right now, but IS clearly read the ideas here even if they don't always comment upon them...
There have been a lot of great ideas that we've seen posted that haven't appeared to have outright support, but that might still end up festering in the head of the team for later production.
Your idea IS good. It would solve an issue, especially if there ends up being a misbalance between game playstyles. I personally argued against it as I don't believe it will be needed...however, after launch I could be totally wrong.
Personally I've been in exactly the same place as yourself here on the forums several times, you raise an idea you think is great, only to feel shot down. Heck at least you have replies, no one even wanted to respond to my 'homage to Monkey Island/in game insults' thread I'm sticking my ideas into a backburner and will pull then out again at a later date if needs be, but please don't let this stop you from coming up with ideas as the next one could be the mmo gold game changer.
I only check in intermittently because I know it's going to be a while before the game is available for more than dreaming about, but I have to admit, if non-consensual PvP is a major element of this game, I guess I'm kissing my backing $$ bye bye.
"It is a PVP game." - Jeffrey
This should have been made MUCH clearer, MUCH earlier. Oh well.
@Cazz "As far as stealth in cities, I suppose it depends on how strong the guards are. If you can kill another player in less than five seconds, effectively negating the threat of guards, that seems to be a problem with balance. Conversely, if you don't have a chance to kill another at all because the guards are god-tier, that negates meaningful conflict for PvP in cities. Either way, it negates meaningful conflict. It's been my experience that one or the other always happens. I've yet to see an actual balanced result."
The devs stated during one of the livestreams where this came up that pvp will NOT be what you have experienced in other MMOs with the cycle of root/backstab/root/backstab/root/ and dead. Pvp is meant to be a "drawn out affair". We will of course be testing it come alpha, and hopefully our feedback will be listened to. So while nobody likes getting ganked and feeling powerless over the process, the plan is to give someone of even a lower level a fighting chance to fight back if so inclined, yell for help while defending, or use an escape mechanic that you might have specced for. My personal opinion is that the class of gamer that favors the model that Albion Online, EVE, or Crowfall follow of full loot gank fests will become bored rather quickly and move onto bloodier pastures. Will there always be that one idiot? Sure, but that is just like real life, you just bear them till they can be avoided, because the police don't like it when you shoot every stupid fuck in the face.
They already have a system in place to deter gankers. That system will have the volume turned up if it becomes a problem. This has been repeated many times. Intrepid is aware of the potential problems. The game is just as much about PvP as PvE though. I acknowledge you arent trying to escape from PvP in PvP targetted events and areas. But that isnt the kind of PvP murderers will be aiming at. Ganking is not part of the vision outside of PvP areas.
My main concern though is you are asking for a carebear system that can very easily be monetised and the thought of having to pay, or even being able to pay for such a thing, seems wrong to me. It opens the door to a game direction that could open a whole dumpster of worms. And even the possibility of making ganking more probable to increase funding Pay2survive instead of pay2win.
This should have been made MUCH clearer, MUCH earlier. Oh well.
Jeffrey is right. It is a PvP game, but it's also a PvE game. In Ashes, PvP and PvE work together symbiotically to create a dynamic and immersive experience.
I can't get behind this idea at all. That's my honest answer. Because let's say you and I decide
"hey I want to go mine some of that rare ore that popped up selling for a fortune two nodes down"
Now your out there mining making a quick buck immune to PvP for 8 hours and I can't attack you to either A) chase you away or B )kill you and take some of the raw materials you have gathered and further my profits.
I am at a STRICT disadvantage to that character who is PvP immune because they wanted reward with no risk
I only check in intermittently because I know it's going to be a while before the game is available for more than dreaming about, but I have to admit, if non-consensual PvP is a major element of this game, I guess I'm kissing my backing $$ bye bye.
"It is a PVP game." - Jeffrey
This should have been made MUCH clearer, MUCH earlier. Oh well.
The game being PvP based was made clear well before the game even hit kickstarter. The fine people on discord have been keeping a fantastic "what we know so far" and "FAQ" on the server.
Toooo much reading. So I will simply scream my personal opinion. I completely despise any notion of potions negating pvp. I don't care if the cd is 2x the length of the potion its still a horrible idea. "Oh wait let me use a 2 hour potion. Hmm well its over so I'll just go logout for 2-4 hours and come back and pop another potion and play some more." Nope Nope Nope. I don't say this because I randomly gank people or because I'm some pvp god either. I never gank people and I lose more than my fair share of confrontations. I say this because this game is supposed to be about COMMUNITY. This game isn't intended for you to simply be able to stroll out and do your own thing. You find a bunch of gatherers and you travel in a bloody herd. Even if you do suck then enough players should be able to convince the offending ganker to find easier victims. If its a gank squad then use the cash you would have spent on the potion to hire some thugs
If I get smashed because I'm out by myself its what I damn well deserved. I rolled the dice leaving the safety of the city alone and I lost. If I was in a guild and no one plays when I play then find another guild. Hells bells ask the ganker if his guild is recruiting so you can farm/harvest and produce your "leet items" for them instead. Introducing bypasses for a core aspect of this game is inherently a horrid idea. I say this knowing full well I will go out by myself and gather. I say this knowing some douche is going to come up and execute me then rub his junk all over my face. I could do without the junk in my poor avatars face but I welcome the execution. Its a game and I find the unpredictable nature of the game is where the excitement comes from. Am I going to sit there and take it on the chin? Nope. Every time I get killed in a game I go back and look at what they did and what I did. I look for holes in my tactics and character and start thinking about ways to improve. THAT is what makes it fun for me. I'm a planner and a schemer and every loss is a chance for me to learn more about my character and about myself as a player. By attempting to weasel your way out of pvp you are limiting your experience. Embrace death only then will your character truly be alive *bows*
Neatly put @Dominus Kuuk ! I get that...*applauds* and throws a rose from the audience (but definitely NOT underwear!).
Seems it will only be gameplay that will give us any real understanding of how well the the game mechanics have 'tuned' the balance of the game between PvP and PvE...but I fully accept it'll be how well WE 'tune' it also. Hmmm....it's always that 'human* nature' side of things that seems to bring uncertainty. Time will tell!
Personally I'm still cautious about human* nature but very eager to play AoC!
*Please insert nature of choice - human/elven/dwarven/tulnar/Sharif etc - other natures are available. T & C apply. I said 'Maybe' - and that's final!
I think n would be fair, if this were so there should
also be a pvp potion, which would allow you can do pk for a certain time
without restrictions, why someone can do pve quiet and others could not do pvp
without thinking about the consequences.
I think n would be fair, if this were so there should
also be a pvp potion, which would allow you can do pk for a certain time
without restrictions, why someone can do pve quiet and others could not do pvp
without thinking about the consequences.
Good point. What's fair is fair or should we say balanced?
An item that is crafted by players, that can be sold on the markets, ...
--General description-- This consumable item would prevent other players from being able to attack the protected player. If the protected player initiates hostilities against another player, the protection is lost until the consumable item is used again.
No. Something like this should never be Craftable ... it might as well be the " Holy Grail in you Pocket ".
An item with this kinda of effect should be vastly scarce and/or ridiculously hard to find at least. Crafters making them ? This won't fuel the economy ... it'll break it & the game itself. I see something like this being bad in more ways than one.
I've seen stuff like this happen before - where something is implemented to try to make things easier & simple. But that same thing will just " cheese " the whole PvP Aspect
It’s late for me and the heat is oppressive so I hope what I
say is coherent.
The potions you describe are well thought out. I would love to have that kind of protection
when I go out exploring or gathering. Who wouldn’t? I don’t see it as part of Ashes though. It takes away from the idea of meaningful
conflict and the whole concept of the game I would rather see a skill available in one of
the classes that enables you to detect someone in stealth close by.
Rogues and bounty
hunters should be able to sneak up on people in towns. Mining
areas will be fought over. Ashes
encourages working together with others.
You have the option of finding others to work with or hire others to
guard you.
I’ve said before I love PvE even though I’ve participated in
both. Ashes drew me for it’s ideals
and goals which makes both PvE and PvP dependent on one another so I am going
into this game with my eyes open.
This is the sort of reply I was expecting in regards to disagreement. I know some people will say that others have replied like this, but clearly I didn't feel they did.
I have tried to explain why it doesn't take away meaningful conflict. I don't know if I'm not being clear or if it's just a matter of perspective (I'm inclined to believe it's the former).
As far as stealth in cities, I suppose it depends on how strong the guards are. If you can kill another player in less than five seconds, effectively negating the threat of guards, that seems to be a problem with balance. Conversely, if you don't have a chance to kill another at all because the guards are god-tier, that negates meaningful conflict for PvP in cities. Either way, it negates meaningful conflict. It's been my experience that one or the other always happens. I've yet to see an actual balanced result.
@CylverRayne opinion is spot on and what I would have posted.
Life isn't safe and AoC is trying to capture a certain level of realism (as much as they can hopefully cram into it). This will be a dangerous world and PvP is an integral part of that. So to basically nullify the PvP component (however limited) with these potions effectively nullifies a large part of the game. People choosing to go corrupt already face a real challenge, so to have NATs (Non Attack Targets....my acronym ) wandering around everywhere (and lots of people will use these potions...why wouldn't you?) for "safety" may very well make being corrupt TOO challenging.
I personally WANT the game to feel and be dangerous. Gives me a real feeling of accomplishment when I have gone out into the world and returned with my 'phat lootz'. I'm not signing up to play a purely PvE game, there are tons of those out there already that I'm not playing for a specific reason.
The reality is, being "ganked" won't be all that bad if you don't make a habit of trying to kill the PKer. You will lose some of your materials, that's IT (so all that valuable equipment is safe)
I used to avoid avoid PVP like the plague. I was a PVE guy to the core. Until I played a game that "forced me" to PvP. Now I love it. I thank that game and guild that set me up for this while side of gaming I was missing out on.
Will everyone have the same experience? No, not necessarily. But some will, and I'm fine with aspects in a game that challenge me to play better, smarter and keep me playing longer.
I hate the term "carebear" Because I feel it doesn't accurately describe what this person truely is. I prefer the term "mouse" because a mouse is content in their small patch of the world and doesn't care to be involved in the going on outside of this, even though there is a whole world they are missing out on.
I used to avoid avoid PVP like the plague. I was a PVE guy to the core. Until I played a game that "forced me" to PvP. Now I love it. I thank that game and guild that set me up for this while side of gaming I was missing out on.
Will everyone have the same experience? No, not necessarily. But some will, and I'm fine with aspects in a game that challenge me to play better, smarter and keep me playing longer.
I hate the term "carebear" Because I feel it doesn't accurately describe what this person truely is. I prefer the term "mouse" because a mouse is content in their small patch of the world and doesn't care to be involved in the going on outside of this, even though there is a whole world they are missing out on.
Well he called himself a "carebear" so I'm good with it. Mouse works fine too. I've loved pvp from the very start. We had wars in everquest and I was only in one. I lead an small evil rp guilId who got into a beef with the biggest evil guild on the server. They even put plants into our guild to try and talk us out of it and tell us how we had no chance. We already knew we had no chance but my little guild had its evil pride and we fought them anyway. I don't believe we made a single kill against them and we all still had a blast bragging about the fights we ended up having against these ass hats.
Go out gather your mats and periodically bank them. If you get ganked go back out and start again. If he hits you again then go back into town and start producing items with your stockpiled resources until he gets bored and goes away. There are a lot of ways to remedy this situation without involving hard coded measures.
For the record if they had a potion that would leave me immune to pvp I wouldn't ever buy it anyway.
I live in an MMO; we all do. And in this MMO called "life" there IS PvP, but there is also a reasonable expectation that stepping outside your door each day won't result in being murdered. (For which those of us living in 1st world countries should really be much more thankful.)
If I wanted to live as if I was born in Palestine or Israel or Syria or whatever, I'd move.
That's "realistic". That's what I seek in my games. The game being detailed doesn't seem to offer that. In fact, just the opposite... it insists that stepping outside my door means I agree with a considerably higher possibility of being murdered than not.
So, good on ya, those who enjoy the "challenge" of not getting murdered every day.
I'm just not one of those people. I don't see that as a "challenge", I see it as an unwanted intrusion into the enjoyment of what I DO want.
You can hand me any label you like, but the one I'm choosing is defined in the context above... so you'll forgive me if I leave yours laying on the ground in favor of my own.
We'll see what makes it out of the gate. If I like it, I'll stay. If not, I won't. Pretty simple, really. Time will tell.
Saddest part is that article generally outlines what was once common PvP culture and etiquette. If that were to ever make a comeback, perhaps I would, too. But, that's not happening. I know it, you know it, the market knows it. Sooo.... *wanders off*
the system they have talked about for anti ganking is a good deterrent. and have already stated this won't be a gank box. with how it works as they have described is....X player attacks Y player, Y player doesn't fight back, X player turns red (gets corrupted). when this happens X players stats are reduced, and the more they attack people that aren't fighting back the more "corrupted" they become. in essense, no one will be able to grief you because they will eventually become like a lvl 1 town rat you can 1 shot at lvl 10. so i wouldn't worry about it. i mean the options is available to owpvp, but that's more for the systems they have that include such things. as in caravan raiding, city/town sieges, guild vs. guild wars, etc.
oh, one more thing, not sure if this was stated or not in the stream they talked about this, but i am thinking they mentioned if a person griefs a lot they can get listed on a bounty board that players can obtain the task and then it shows said person on the map to be hunted down?....almost positive they talked about having such a feature, but not sure...
the system they have talked about for anti ganking is a good deterrent. and have already stated this won't be a gank box. with how it works as they have described is....X player attacks Y player, Y player doesn't fight back, X player turns red (gets corrupted). when this happens X players stats are reduced, and the more they attack people that aren't fighting back the more "corrupted" they become. in essense, no one will be able to grief you because they will eventually become like a lvl 1 town rat you can 1 shot at lvl 10. so i wouldn't worry about it. i mean the options is available to owpvp, but that's more for the systems they have that include such things. as in caravan raiding, city/town sieges, guild vs. guild wars, etc.
oh, one more thing, not sure if this was stated or not in the stream they talked about this, but i am thinking they mentioned if a person griefs a lot they can get listed on a bounty board that players can obtain the task and then it shows said person on the map to be hunted down?....almost positive they talked about having such a feature, but not sure...
On point @Wizard_Beard. More info can be found here:
X player attacks Y player, Y player doesn't fight back, X player turns red (gets corrupted). when this happens X players stats are reduced, and the more they attack people that aren't fighting back the more "corrupted" they become. in essense, no one will be able to grief you because they will eventually become like a lvl 1 town rat you can 1 shot at lvl 10. so i wouldn't worry about it.
This is actually a wonderfully elegant solution and one I really like; not only does it enforce diminishing returns on known attrition behaviors, it makes it obvious (or should?) which players are playing for sadistic motivations and which are not.
As the OP mentions, there will likely be a rash of street rats as people test the boundaries of what the above actually means, and I'm sure emergent play that "games the system" will present as well.
I've always made it clear that I'm not a conflict target (e.g., /sit, /dance, etc). If the above is how it will be, I'd hope that emotes won't break under combat attack... I want it to be CLEAR that I'm not fighting you, nor do I intend to do so.
In fact, let me leave a "dummy" of myself for that PKer to "enjoy" and we all win. They get their ant-stomping "fun" and I get to go about my business. (impish grin)
From where I sit, if your idea of fun is the MMO equivalent of stomping on ants who are just "do-be-do-be-doing" their little, ant thing, you deserve no more "enjoyment" than that very, very temporary one I assume you get from knowing you killed something. To be sure, there's no "skill" in ganking that any animal in any alley can't demonstrate. (shrug)
Or heck, give me a "dying cockroach" emote that placement and animation locks me until I'm dead or I choose to unlock it. One that doesn't allow attacking player to push/bounce me around - I suspect that will quickly grow quite boring for those who prefer forcing themselves on players who are clearly uninterested in the play/mechanics and UNRESPONSIVE to them.
I miss the days when PKs were considered murderers and "not ok". I remember clans in UO that would make their point eloquently and unequivocally; you PK other than by accident and your own peeps would come for you. This happened because they understood a simple truth that really seems to escape many who are still in the PvP game for this "hunting people" thrill:
If all you do is make new players to the field miserable, don't be surprised when they decide they'd prefer to spend their time doing other things.
Mind you, that was a wonderful, halcyon time in the industry and it's not to say that the tide of rampant PKing was far from new... but there used to be at least some semblance of etiquette/ethic about it. This quoted paragraph seems to be of that "Pepperidge Farm Remembers" type... I like it.
The entire "debate" between PvP and PvE hinges on the premise that any given player not explicitly opting IN should be considered as opted OUT.
This pattern works for everyone EXCEPT players who require the ability to intrude on another player's gaming experience.
We don't consider it "ok" when it's harassing whispers, We don't say it's "ok" when it's ninja-looting, kill-stealing, or any of the other types of forced interaction are witnessed. We don't say it's "ok" when a player renders a channel useless due to their behavior.
Non-consensual PvP is, very literally, intrusive behavior wobbling under the disguise of "it isn't prohibited, so it's allowed"; effectively pitting the game company against their own players (also a lose-lose scenario, by the way), so I'm fascinated to see if this notion of "true karma" as above defined will really "work" for all parties concerned.
As annoyed as I am with PKing, this actually makes me a bit hopeful... I suppose, as with anything/everything, time will tell.
I couldn't disagree more with the concept of being able to avoid PvP in an MMORPG. I get that you dislike being ganked but that completely contradicts the spirit of a open-world PvP enabled game. Another huge aspect that seems to be overlooked is the social networking that MMOs allow - having friends or hiring NPCs to protect you still allows for PvP to occur even if you don't want to participate in it.
@Tirithel i suggest reading my previous post in this thread with information on how this works along with @Lexmax 's post following up mine with a link to the information given in the ashes stream about this subject. /waves hand "this is not the gank box you are looking for." while they are wanting pvp to be a catalyst for change within the game ashes is much much more than just owpvp slaying. PvP is a huuuge part of ashes, but just randomly killing people isn't what they are going for....it has been stated several times they want "meaningful" engagements. if just wanna run around and kill people aimlessly they got FPSs and other lobby queue kill box games already, actually, the market if very saturated with such titles atm.
Comments
I understand people don't want to be forced to PvP, but at least try the game as the devs intended. The truth is we don't really know what PvP is going to look like yet.
I have tried to explain why it doesn't take away meaningful conflict. I don't know if I'm not being clear or if it's just a matter of perspective (I'm inclined to believe it's the former).
As far as stealth in cities, I suppose it depends on how strong the guards are. If you can kill another player in less than five seconds, effectively negating the threat of guards, that seems to be a problem with balance. Conversely, if you don't have a chance to kill another at all because the guards are god-tier, that negates meaningful conflict for PvP in cities. Either way, it negates meaningful conflict. It's been my experience that one or the other always happens. I've yet to see an actual balanced result.
And I agree about wanting to get involved with the PvP here. I am a Carebear, but I do get involved with PvP from time to time. I played ArcheAge during its open beta weekends. I got to max level. I participated in PvP a few times. Even started a few fights when someone was interfering with my questing and I knew the fight was heavily in my favor. There are days when I prefer to play without that stress of "is someone going to gank me". Even in Lineage 2 I preferred to leave other people alone.
I get what you're saying. In WoW (i know, the aids of the MMO industry to some lol) I made a character on a PvP server with the sole intent of ganking people. I think that character has maybe two hours played time at max level for the expansion I her in. I hardly ever played on that server despite it being very heavily favored on the side I rolled on. So I understand the mindset of gankers. In fact, I defend ganking in most games with PvP because there's a way to avoid it by staying in cities or other safe areas. Even in Lineage 2 you're safe in cities. But it sounds like that safety net won't be quite as present here.
---
I've explained my idea and why I believe it would honor the Four Pillars the devs are building on. I really don't know how else to explain why it does. But it's clear I'm the only one that believes it does. So I give up trying to explain it and I'm going to let my thread die.
we can't always agree, but we can respect the effort!
There have been a lot of great ideas that we've seen posted that haven't appeared to have outright support, but that might still end up festering in the head of the team for later production.
Your idea IS good. It would solve an issue, especially if there ends up being a misbalance between game playstyles.
I personally argued against it as I don't believe it will be needed...however, after launch I could be totally wrong.
Personally I've been in exactly the same place as yourself here on the forums several times, you raise an idea you think is great, only to feel shot down. Heck at least you have replies, no one even wanted to respond to my 'homage to Monkey Island/in game insults' thread
I'm sticking my ideas into a backburner and will pull then out again at a later date if needs be, but please don't let this stop you from coming up with ideas as the next one could be the mmo gold game changer.
You're Awesome don't forget it x
"It is a PVP game." - Jeffrey
This should have been made MUCH clearer, MUCH earlier. Oh well.
The devs stated during one of the livestreams where this came up that pvp will NOT be what you have experienced in other MMOs with the cycle of root/backstab/root/backstab/root/ and dead. Pvp is meant to be a "drawn out affair". We will of course be testing it come alpha, and hopefully our feedback will be listened to. So while nobody likes getting ganked and feeling powerless over the process, the plan is to give someone of even a lower level a fighting chance to fight back if so inclined, yell for help while defending, or use an escape mechanic that you might have specced for. My personal opinion is that the class of gamer that favors the model that Albion Online, EVE, or Crowfall follow of full loot gank fests will become bored rather quickly and move onto bloodier pastures. Will there always be that one idiot? Sure, but that is just like real life, you just bear them till they can be avoided, because the police don't like it when you shoot every stupid fuck in the face.
The game is just as much about PvP as PvE though. I acknowledge you arent trying to escape from PvP in PvP targetted events and areas. But that isnt the kind of PvP murderers will be aiming at. Ganking is not part of the vision outside of PvP areas.
My main concern though is you are asking for a carebear system that can very easily be monetised and the thought of having to pay, or even being able to pay for such a thing, seems wrong to me. It opens the door to a game direction that could open a whole dumpster of worms. And even the possibility of making ganking more probable to increase funding
Pay2survive instead of pay2win.
"hey I want to go mine some of that rare ore that popped up selling for a fortune two nodes down"
Now your out there mining making a quick buck immune to PvP for 8 hours and I can't attack you to either A) chase you away or B )kill you and take some of the raw materials you have gathered and further my profits.
I am at a STRICT disadvantage to that character who is PvP immune because they wanted reward with no risk
If I get smashed because I'm out by myself its what I damn well deserved. I rolled the dice leaving the safety of the city alone and I lost. If I was in a guild and no one plays when I play then find another guild. Hells bells ask the ganker if his guild is recruiting so you can farm/harvest and produce your "leet items" for them instead. Introducing bypasses for a core aspect of this game is inherently a horrid idea. I say this knowing full well I will go out by myself and gather. I say this knowing some douche is going to come up and execute me then rub his junk all over my face. I could do without the junk in my poor avatars face but I welcome the execution. Its a game and I find the unpredictable nature of the game is where the excitement comes from. Am I going to sit there and take it on the chin? Nope. Every time I get killed in a game I go back and look at what they did and what I did. I look for holes in my tactics and character and start thinking about ways to improve. THAT is what makes it fun for me. I'm a planner and a schemer and every loss is a chance for me to learn more about my character and about myself as a player. By attempting to weasel your way out of pvp you are limiting your experience. Embrace death only then will your character truly be alive *bows*
Seems it will only be gameplay that will give us any real understanding of how well the the game mechanics have 'tuned' the balance of the game between PvP and PvE...but I fully accept it'll be how well WE 'tune' it also. Hmmm....it's always that 'human* nature' side of things that seems to bring uncertainty. Time will tell!
Personally I'm still cautious about human* nature but very eager to play AoC!
*Please insert nature of choice - human/elven/dwarven/tulnar/Sharif etc - other natures are available. T & C apply. I said 'Maybe' - and that's final!
I think n would be fair, if this were so there should also be a pvp potion, which would allow you can do pk for a certain time without restrictions, why someone can do pve quiet and others could not do pvp without thinking about the consequences.
" Holy Grail in you Pocket ".
An item with this kinda of effect should be vastly scarce and/or ridiculously hard to find at least. Crafters making them ? This won't fuel the economy ... it'll break it & the game itself. I see something like this being bad in more ways than one.
I've seen stuff like this happen before - where something is implemented to try to make things easier & simple. But that same thing will just " cheese " the whole PvP Aspect
Life isn't safe and AoC is trying to capture a certain level of realism (as much as they can hopefully cram into it). This will be a dangerous world and PvP is an integral part of that. So to basically nullify the PvP component (however limited) with these potions effectively nullifies a large part of the game. People choosing to go corrupt already face a real challenge, so to have NATs (Non Attack Targets....my acronym
I personally WANT the game to feel and be dangerous. Gives me a real feeling of accomplishment when I have gone out into the world and returned with my 'phat lootz'. I'm not signing up to play a purely PvE game, there are tons of those out there already that I'm not playing for a specific reason.
The reality is, being "ganked" won't be all that bad if you don't make a habit of trying to kill the PKer. You will lose some of your materials, that's IT (so all that valuable equipment is safe)
Will everyone have the same experience? No, not necessarily. But some will, and I'm fine with aspects in a game that challenge me to play better, smarter and keep me playing longer.
I hate the term "carebear" Because I feel it doesn't accurately describe what this person truely is. I prefer the term "mouse" because a mouse is content in their small patch of the world and doesn't care to be involved in the going on outside of this, even though there is a whole world they are missing out on.
Go out gather your mats and periodically bank them. If you get ganked go back out and start again. If he hits you again then go back into town and start producing items with your stockpiled resources until he gets bored and goes away. There are a lot of ways to remedy this situation without involving hard coded measures.
For the record if they had a potion that would leave me immune to pvp I wouldn't ever buy it anyway.
If I wanted to live as if I was born in Palestine or Israel or Syria or whatever, I'd move.
That's "realistic". That's what I seek in my games. The game being detailed doesn't seem to offer that. In fact, just the opposite... it insists that stepping outside my door means I agree with a considerably higher possibility of being murdered than not.
So, good on ya, those who enjoy the "challenge" of not getting murdered every day.
I'm just not one of those people. I don't see that as a "challenge", I see it as an unwanted intrusion into the enjoyment of what I DO want.
You can hand me any label you like, but the one I'm choosing is defined in the context above... so you'll forgive me if I leave yours laying on the ground in favor of my own.
We'll see what makes it out of the gate. If I like it, I'll stay. If not, I won't. Pretty simple, really. Time will tell.
oh, one more thing, not sure if this was stated or not in the stream they talked about this, but i am thinking they mentioned if a person griefs a lot they can get listed on a bounty board that players can obtain the task and then it shows said person on the map to be hunted down?....almost positive they talked about having such a feature, but not sure...
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/33075/information-world-pvp/p1
As the OP mentions, there will likely be a rash of street rats as people test the boundaries of what the above actually means, and I'm sure emergent play that "games the system" will present as well.
I've always made it clear that I'm not a conflict target (e.g., /sit, /dance, etc). If the above is how it will be, I'd hope that emotes won't break under combat attack... I want it to be CLEAR that I'm not fighting you, nor do I intend to do so.
In fact, let me leave a "dummy" of myself for that PKer to "enjoy" and we all win. They get their ant-stomping "fun" and I get to go about my business. (impish grin)
From where I sit, if your idea of fun is the MMO equivalent of stomping on ants who are just "do-be-do-be-doing" their little, ant thing, you deserve no more "enjoyment" than that very, very temporary one I assume you get from knowing you killed something. To be sure, there's no "skill" in ganking that any animal in any alley can't demonstrate. (shrug)
Or heck, give me a "dying cockroach" emote that placement and animation locks me until I'm dead or I choose to unlock it. One that doesn't allow attacking player to push/bounce me around - I suspect that will quickly grow quite boring for those who prefer forcing themselves on players who are clearly uninterested in the play/mechanics and UNRESPONSIVE to them.
I miss the days when PKs were considered murderers and "not ok". I remember clans in UO that would make their point eloquently and unequivocally; you PK other than by accident and your own peeps would come for you. This happened because they understood a simple truth that really seems to escape many who are still in the PvP game for this "hunting people" thrill:
If all you do is make new players to the field miserable, don't be surprised when they decide they'd prefer to spend their time doing other things.
Mind you, that was a wonderful, halcyon time in the industry and it's not to say that the tide of rampant PKing was far from new... but there used to be at least some semblance of etiquette/ethic about it. This quoted paragraph seems to be of that "Pepperidge Farm Remembers" type... I like it.
The entire "debate" between PvP and PvE hinges on the premise that any given player not explicitly opting IN should be considered as opted OUT.
This pattern works for everyone EXCEPT players who require the ability to intrude on another player's gaming experience.
We don't consider it "ok" when it's harassing whispers,
We don't say it's "ok" when it's ninja-looting, kill-stealing, or any of the other types of forced interaction are witnessed.
We don't say it's "ok" when a player renders a channel useless due to their behavior.
Non-consensual PvP is, very literally, intrusive behavior wobbling under the disguise of "it isn't prohibited, so it's allowed"; effectively pitting the game company against their own players (also a lose-lose scenario, by the way), so I'm fascinated to see if this notion of "true karma" as above defined will really "work" for all parties concerned.
As annoyed as I am with PKing, this actually makes me a bit hopeful... I suppose, as with anything/everything, time will tell.
[Will type more when I'm home]
I understand the concerns on both sides. I do think that the devs are working hard to create a game which will ensure that
People who want to PVP will have plenty of opportunity to do so.
People who want to avoid PVP will be able to, the majority of the time, if they try.