Carebear in a Harsh World
How to start this....
Yes, this will be about PvP and this Carebear's desire to avoid it as much as possible. I'm not good at PvP, but I still want to play amazing MMOs, and some of them have open world PvP. Some have optional PvP, some force you to be flagged in certain zones, and some leave you open to attack from literally everyone (including party members looking at you Lineage 2).
As I've been watching the videos, I've seen the focus on player driven content. Economy, crafting, etc. And that sparked an idea for how to provide some protection for CBs while also honoring the Four Pillars.
An item that is crafted by players, that can be sold on the markets, that will provide short, medium, and long duration protection from other players out in the world. But with exceptions.
--General description--
This consumable item would prevent other players from being able to attack the protected player. If the protected player initiates hostilities against another player, the protection is lost until the consumable item is used again.
--Duration--
The protection will not last forever, obviously. Whether the duration timer continues while the player is logged off is up to the devs, but I don't see any reason to pause its timer upon logging off. Real life gets in the way sometimes, and if the timer has 20 minutes left and you have to go pick up Grandma at the airport, that would kinda suck to lose that 20 minutes because Grandma brought her delicious sugar cookies.
Short: 30 minutes to 2 hours
Medium: 1 hour to 4 hours
Long: 2 hours to 8 eight hours
The range of time would vary on the skill of the crafter making the item and/or the materials used. Longer durations requiring higher skill and rarer ingredients.
--Exceptions--
This is the part that will ensure it honors the Four Pillars.
The protection will not apply under certain conditions. If you are running or guarding a caravan, in an open dungeon, specific zones/areas of the world (perhaps there's an area that is heavily contested by multiple factions, you would not be able to gain protection while in this area), hostile "faction" territory, if you are in a group with more than half of a full party (i.e. if the max regular group size is 5, then 3 people in a group would prevent the protection from working, but just if there are only 2, you would be able to use it). Possibly other exceptions.
--Purpose--
I don't want to ask for a PvE server because I believe that such a server would be contrary to the vision of the game. At the same time, I don't always want to be under threat of being attacked by some HotPocket devouring Cartman who gets their jollies off on making other people's day miserable. Having an option to play in peace, while also stimulating the economy, would provide that sense of ease.
--Final Note--
I don't want this item to be easily spammable, whether that means the ingredients to make it are the roadblock or having a cooldown before the item can be used again. There still needs to be a period where the player cannot be protected even if they choose to never do other things that are covered in the above Exceptions. I would suggest the cooldown method as that would be easier to control (after all, three years down the road, the ingredients for the items could be flooding the markets, as happens in MMOs as they age).
Assuming the cooldown method is used, two things to help with management of the item could be implemented. One, if you enter an area where the protection would be lost, you have a few seconds to exit the area before you lose the protection. This would prevent losing the protection because your pinky toe crosses that threshold.
The cooldown to reuse the item would not start until the protection is lost. This will ensure that you can't cheese the cooldown somehow (because you know someone will try to). Additionally, just like the duration being paused while logged off, so too the cooldown pauses while logged off. So no cheesing the cooldown via that trick, either. Perhaps even add a check for whether the player is AFK (I'm assuming there will be an AFK auto-flag system in place), and if so, the cooldown pauses. Sure, there's ways around this last one, but I'm not sure how to prevent someone using their waterbird to bypass this.
-----
So that's my suggestion for baiting... *ahem* encouraging us Carebears to join this amazing world!!
I'm really eager to see this game happen! It's been too long since a good, solid MMO happened. And with the death of... the other mmo that was supposed to happen Next... I see many things planned for this game that I've long dreamed of seeing in an MMO.
Now..... here's to hoping I don't get trolled by all the hardcore PvPers.
Yes, this will be about PvP and this Carebear's desire to avoid it as much as possible. I'm not good at PvP, but I still want to play amazing MMOs, and some of them have open world PvP. Some have optional PvP, some force you to be flagged in certain zones, and some leave you open to attack from literally everyone (including party members looking at you Lineage 2).
As I've been watching the videos, I've seen the focus on player driven content. Economy, crafting, etc. And that sparked an idea for how to provide some protection for CBs while also honoring the Four Pillars.
An item that is crafted by players, that can be sold on the markets, that will provide short, medium, and long duration protection from other players out in the world. But with exceptions.
--General description--
This consumable item would prevent other players from being able to attack the protected player. If the protected player initiates hostilities against another player, the protection is lost until the consumable item is used again.
--Duration--
The protection will not last forever, obviously. Whether the duration timer continues while the player is logged off is up to the devs, but I don't see any reason to pause its timer upon logging off. Real life gets in the way sometimes, and if the timer has 20 minutes left and you have to go pick up Grandma at the airport, that would kinda suck to lose that 20 minutes because Grandma brought her delicious sugar cookies.
Short: 30 minutes to 2 hours
Medium: 1 hour to 4 hours
Long: 2 hours to 8 eight hours
The range of time would vary on the skill of the crafter making the item and/or the materials used. Longer durations requiring higher skill and rarer ingredients.
--Exceptions--
This is the part that will ensure it honors the Four Pillars.
The protection will not apply under certain conditions. If you are running or guarding a caravan, in an open dungeon, specific zones/areas of the world (perhaps there's an area that is heavily contested by multiple factions, you would not be able to gain protection while in this area), hostile "faction" territory, if you are in a group with more than half of a full party (i.e. if the max regular group size is 5, then 3 people in a group would prevent the protection from working, but just if there are only 2, you would be able to use it). Possibly other exceptions.
--Purpose--
I don't want to ask for a PvE server because I believe that such a server would be contrary to the vision of the game. At the same time, I don't always want to be under threat of being attacked by some HotPocket devouring Cartman who gets their jollies off on making other people's day miserable. Having an option to play in peace, while also stimulating the economy, would provide that sense of ease.
--Final Note--
I don't want this item to be easily spammable, whether that means the ingredients to make it are the roadblock or having a cooldown before the item can be used again. There still needs to be a period where the player cannot be protected even if they choose to never do other things that are covered in the above Exceptions. I would suggest the cooldown method as that would be easier to control (after all, three years down the road, the ingredients for the items could be flooding the markets, as happens in MMOs as they age).
Assuming the cooldown method is used, two things to help with management of the item could be implemented. One, if you enter an area where the protection would be lost, you have a few seconds to exit the area before you lose the protection. This would prevent losing the protection because your pinky toe crosses that threshold.
The cooldown to reuse the item would not start until the protection is lost. This will ensure that you can't cheese the cooldown somehow (because you know someone will try to). Additionally, just like the duration being paused while logged off, so too the cooldown pauses while logged off. So no cheesing the cooldown via that trick, either. Perhaps even add a check for whether the player is AFK (I'm assuming there will be an AFK auto-flag system in place), and if so, the cooldown pauses. Sure, there's ways around this last one, but I'm not sure how to prevent someone using their waterbird to bypass this.
-----
So that's my suggestion for baiting... *ahem* encouraging us Carebears to join this amazing world!!
I'm really eager to see this game happen! It's been too long since a good, solid MMO happened. And with the death of... the other mmo that was supposed to happen Next... I see many things planned for this game that I've long dreamed of seeing in an MMO.
Now..... here's to hoping I don't get trolled by all the hardcore PvPers.
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Comments
I think to see it in practice would be really good.
My only meh with it is if you are a ganker- can you trigger the pot when someone goes to kill you so I'd add that corrupted players can't use the pot.
I'll use Lineage 2's flagging system since I know at least one of the devs played it and it's easy to understand.
White name = Normal.
Purple = You've attacked another player
Red = You've killed another player that did not fight back (you killed someone with a white name).
As long as you have a White name, you can use the item and gain the protection (assuming no other Exceptions are present).
If you have a Purple name, you are locked out from using the item for 5 minutes after your name goes back to being White. You cannot use the item while your name is Purple.
If your name is Red, you need to get some duct tape to fix the tire on your van (props to anyone who gets this ^_^ ). But seriously, if your name is Red, you cannot use the item, full stop.
Thanks for the reply, Diura. I knew I would miss something. haha
I used to have a yearly BBQ party in a park for a bar I owned. Was advertised as pay a single fee, all you could eat and drink. Over the years it got big. We had live bands, had the cops show up every year towards the end. You can imagine. And every year I would have someone come up to the tables we had set up and complain that we didn't have enough vegetarian/vegan options. Or that the smell of meat cooking was making them queasy because they were meat-free. I would calmly smile, and if they had paid, offer to give them their money back, and let them know that the days activities were not for them and they could always leave. They always stayed.
While I do see a use case for some type of item such as this, it does beg to question the potential exploitation of it. in other games (ArcheAge) one could avoid a G v G by running a peacy treaty (loosely similar) and some guilds did so 24 x 7. I understand that for one that desires a more PvE driven construct that it may seem daunting that PvP will be open world. One think to keep in mind is the shear size of the server population and the proposed functionality of a Node as we know it. If a player were to PK frequently enough they will become a trackable target with an enticing bounty?
I think what we will see is a balance to a degree where there will be ways to avoid PvP to an extent for those who do not wish to partake in it
I don't think this would work out. Mostly because of the dev's desire for "meaningful conflict". This item you're proposing would negate that because it gives the user the power to decide what's meaningful and what's not. For example, you mentioned wanting to be able to contribute to the economy in peace. I'm assuming you mean you'd like to be out gathering for materials to either sell or process. Seems innocent enough. However, to someone who opposes the node you're supporting, your activity is counter to their goals and they would feel it's within the scope of meaningful conflict to disrupt your gathering. And they'd be justified in their belief.
Believe me, I'd LOVE to play with the ability to ensure I don't get ganked. But I just don't think preventing PvP will honor the dev's vision for the game.
Belewyn, that the potential for exploitation is there. I do fully understand the frustration of trying to PvE in PvP areas. As someone who plays solo certain times of the day I don't go looking for trouble but I try to be aware of everything around me and what I am doing. I've played in open world PvP games and it can be challenging at times but it can also be possible to avoid PvP and gankers.
back in the day, mortal online was a good example. You could be mining away wherever and some jerk would blast you back to the stone ages... but if you had a group and could defend yourself it was a different story.. and certain players would voluntarily defend gatherers or do so for a price
EVE had a huge universe/world and a small population. You could easily go days without ever seeing another player. That's not the kind of world we want Ashes to be.
Another person who didn't actually read post, just saw something about an item and assumed it was about spamming carebear potions.
Personally, i think your proposal is well thought out and i wouldnt mind it (as a primarily pve player, i would probably use it). But, it does take away from the feeling that the devs are trying to create imo. I just don't think the devs want you to be completely safe from open world pvp for any decent period of time (especially not for hours at a time). Yes, i have read the exceptions part of your post, but pking is part of open world pvp (even if it enrages me sometimes) and they already have a system in place to decentivize it enough so that you shouldn't experience it very often.
@Wraeven nice to see another MO vet
for a self-identitying carebear, you sure know how to stoke the fires. I read your whole post, and the responses to it, including positive ones. There is merit and there are issues.
ive been pked to the point of frustration in several games, including ones that are designed to mitigate griefing so I can sympathize.
The game designers can try to please everyone and I'm sure they'll do their best. But having a mechanic that does what you've described will have a legitimate downside regarding what the devs have said they are trying to achieve.
if you'll return to the example of eve online, it is indeed a huge world, and you could indeed go a long time solo if you wanted to, but those who were successful in the game did not travel those empty routes. They were grand traders that travelled on routes that were heavily patrolled by player pirates.. if they wanted valuable minerals they had to brave low sec areas which were usually war zones. If they were raided they didn't lose a little, they lost a LOT.
Or you could be like me, sit in a station trading in hi sec and never even set foot in a ship. Same game, different experience.
aoc is sure to have areas you can go to that don't offer much in the way of violence or pvp, but the rewards will be scaled back accordingly.
i think there will be a much better gaming experience for everyone, carebears included, if safety in the game is engineered through player support rather than a beverage.
oh and howdy there @ninja_shadow! Cheers
But saying it can be exploited... Yes, there will always be people who cheat, and those people will find a way to either to avoid PvP altogether by breaking the rules or will find a way to bypass the protection by breaking the rules. Saying "it can/will be exploited" is not productive because there will always be cheaters. You design things based on the people who don't cheat, and then take measures to make it harder for the cheaters.
One of the major reasons I even bothered to write out my idea was because I want to see this game be a record breaking success. But I know how popular, or rather not popular, MMOs with open world PvP are when players do not have a way of at least temporarily opting out of said PvP. Forcing players that don't want to deal with PvP 100% of the time to remain in lowbie areas or cities does not attract players.
That's what led to this idea. A way to allow players to venture out into mid- high- level areas with some protection.
And no, running with a group is not an acceptable rebuttal to this. The whole point of the protection is for people that either struggle to socialize for whatever reason or don't have friends/guildies online. It also doesn't address the core problem of not wanting to have to constantly stress about someone ganking you. Because you can still be ganked while in a group. Not everyone finds that stress fun.
I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but... The purpose of the cooldown and the Exceptions is to make sure the player cannot be protected 100% of the time. That fits in line with the "meaningful conflict" Pillar. Staying true to the meaningful conflict Pillar is also the foundation for the Exceptions. I know I explained this in my original post, but I apparently didn't explain it very well if I'm having to explain it again.
You've responded three times, and in two of those responses you castigated others for not fully reading your original post. However, you've had no response for my comment as to why I don't think it would work. I can only assume you either didn't see it, ignored it, or have no rebuttal for it. I am genuinely interested in your thoughts on my comment.
Do you see the point I was trying to make? That "Having an option to play in peace, while also stimulating the economy..." is actually contrary to the dev's vision for meaningful conflict? If you're stimulating the economy of a particular node and you're immune to attack from a player who supports an opposing node, that impedes the other player's right to play the game within the boundaries of Intrepid's intent for meaningful conflict.
Again, I hate getting ganked. I completely empathize with where you're coming from. But I don't think this suggestion, as well organized and explained as it is, will work within the intended game design.
I have addressed what you said about why it wouldn't work. Several times, in fact.
I'll elaborate for clarity since that never hurts.
1 - The protection would not be available all the time. Sure, a person could sit in a safe area all the time while their cooldown is running. And I know I didn't include a time for the cooldown, and the more I've thought on it, the more I believe having the cooldown be, at the very least, as long as the duration itself, would be the best way to balance its use. That way you spend 50% of the time, at least, not protected. So like I said, you could sit in a safe area while the cooldown ticks away, but not only would that be boring, you would also be wasting time that you could be doing something to advance your character.
2 - The protection does not negate meaningful conflict. If you're going to argue that this protection would negate meaningful conflict while out gathering, you have to also accept that crafting while in a city negates meaningful conflict on the same grounds. You don't want your enemies to craft better gear, but you can't stop them because they're safe in a city (guards, etc).
3 - Part of the Exceptions takes into account what's been said about materials used for crafting. You will have to go to other zones to gather materials. Some of those zones will not be friendly territory, therefore you won't be able to be protected.
What you've brought up about gathering is actually a perfect case of proving why the whole "Just run in a group" rebuttal is asinine. How many people, even in open world PvP MMOs, run around in groups mining, herbing, etc? I think we can safely say that number is so low as to be irrelevant for constructive discussion of any type.
So no, I haven't missed it or ignored it. It's already been addressed, just not with a direct reply. Well, it has now, anyway.
I do want to make one thing clear, though. I'm not trying to be argumentative or confrontational. I just don't know how to politely point out that some of the things said were addressed clearly in my opening post, which means my post wasn't properly read before the reply was made. Maybe I shouldn't point that last bit out. But it's a pet peeve of mine, so it's hard for me to not sound annoyed.
We plan to schedule regular escort squads for world activities, where our geared PvPers tag along to protect and help out guildmates at regular days/times. Our PvPers will be falling over themselves to help our artisans, because they are the engine that helps gear them up and financially progress the guild.
We'll also develop good alliances with neighboring guilds to make sure we are all keeping an eye on each other's people in the world. That's just my guild, but there are be plenty of guilds like it for you to choose from if you choose to go down that path
And before anyone gets the idea that I want this item specifically for gathering, it's for far more than that.
This is item is for everyone in the game, though.
Again, not as likely. But not impossible. My point is, there won't be a fully "safe" place where you can't be attacked.
Attacks on players who are actively supporting a node's economy through any activity are valid meaningful conflict. An item that makes a player invulnerable for any period of time eliminates this opportunity to subvert their efforts and negates that meaningful conflict. It deprives an opposing player of a valid opportunity to advance his node's interests by undermining the production of an enemy node.
this is true
however you also insist that the protection cooldown means your protection item won't be available all the time..
it looks like two sides of the same coin to me.
i know we're all referencing other mmos and you've stated that those with open world pvp have suffered for it. That may also be true, but with alll the thought and effort going into making this a game of the people by the people for the people, were holding out hope that this game will break the standard mold of an mmo, rather than conform to it. We have different approaches but we're all hoping for something ground breaking here.
This item would be for everyone in the game.
It’s late for me and the heat is oppressive so I hope what I say is coherent.
The potions you describe are well thought out. I would love to have that kind of protection when I go out exploring or gathering. Who wouldn’t? I don’t see it as part of Ashes though. It takes away from the idea of meaningful conflict and the whole concept of the game I would rather see a skill available in one of the classes that enables you to detect someone in stealth close by.
Rogues and bounty hunters should be able to sneak up on people in towns. Mining areas will be fought over. Ashes encourages working together with others. You have the option of finding others to work with or hire others to guard you.
I’ve said before I love PvE even though I’ve participated in both. Ashes drew me for it’s ideals and goals which makes both PvE and PvP dependent on one another so I am going into this game with my eyes open.
As an instinctive avoider of PvP I do get @cazz' idea. I also see what others are saying about 'meaningful conflict' and the Dev's ideas for the spirit of the game.
However, for the first time, I actually find myself wanting to attempt the PvP side of this game. Just to see how it works out for me in 'protecting my own' (node or metropolis, whatever) with others.
The 'community spirit' I'm hoping for is already being genuinely demonstrated in the way this discussion's being conducted so thoughtfully. So for once I dare to hope balanced PvP/PvE might become reality for me...but only time and gameplay will tell how this will work out, I think. And that's got to include the Devs really being willing to listen to all views.