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Class Roles and Gear Dependency

So one of the things I hate most about all MMOs currently is pigeon holing me into a certain gear type or weapon type based on my class. WoW does it, FF14 does it, BDO has only 1 weapon choice and same for many games.

The one that strikes me the hardest tho was ESO. anyone can use any weapon or armor! A game where they swore customizability to the stars! but then truthfully gave us very little. If you weren't using a healing staff you couldn't actually be a healer. If you didn't wear plate you couldn't actually be a tank. I would really appreciate (and I'm sure many D&D fans would as well) if AoC could break this mold and finally allow healers to wield maces and wearing heavy plate mail to be in the fray (Pathfinder war cleric) If tanks could wear robes and base everything off of deflection and evasion (WildStar rogue tank) if warriors could cast spells (spell blades) or mages could use bows. I'm so tired of games giving me a weapon and an armor set and being like this is an RPG now PLAY MY WAY.

This is caused by having STATS on gear. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF MMOs find a better way to do character progression then shit loads of stats on gear that augments your character (like relics, rings, souls, amulets, weapons, Shields (BnS)) BUT then allow people to wear whatever they want within reason. (obviously, don't put tanks in bikinis and rogues in plate mail). but don't force everyone into 1 weapon, 1 armor class or 1 set like 90% of other games.

TLDR: I DONT WANT A DRESS AND A STAFF CLERIC !!! WANT A WAR CLERIC WITH SWORDS SHIELDS AND HALF-PLATE... thank you a concerned MMO player. o and transmog doesn't work... if I'm still wearing cloth getting hit like a truck as a war cleric then looking like I have heavy armor is useless and immersion breaking!
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Comments

  • Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 
  • Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Good point :)
     
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/34774/beautiful-new-concept-art-released-on-stream/p1
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    lexmax said:
    Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 
    yeah, "optimal" shouldn't be a thing when it comes to weapons classes and armor types. for mages there are things called spell blades, magic books, magical sensors, staves, wands etc etc, if this is yet another game where the only thing a mage can viable wield is a staff or a tank must have a Kite shield or a ranger a bow then it's just going to melt into all the rest of the garbage that has populated the MMO genre in the last 10 years. 

    Also, every weapon in the game will already have animation made for them so all they would need to do is unlock them for all classes and allow us to augment them within their current class system. haven't made an MMO but I've made a moderately successful game by steam standards and understand the programming and animating that goes with this. 
    The difficult part comes with balancing this sort of freedom... that is near impossible T.T 
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
    And this would be the dream! but I don't know many mages in fantasy that wore plate armor or paladins that wielded throwing knives :P so hopefully they can find the line between this is cool and wtf is going on!
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
    And this would be the dream! but I don't know many mages in fantasy that wore plate armor or paladins that wielded throwing knives :P so hopefully they can find the line between this is cool and wtf is going on!
    Any class can equip any item of gear or weapon. Whether said gear or weapons benefit that class is not known yet and won't really be understood until we know much more and get into the testing phases.
  • lexmax said:
    Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
    And this would be the dream! but I don't know many mages in fantasy that wore plate armor or paladins that wielded throwing knives :P so hopefully they can find the line between this is cool and wtf is going on!
    Any class can equip any item of gear or weapon. Whether said gear or weapons benefit that class is not known yet and won't really be understood until we know much more and get into the testing phases.
    you literally already said this in the same thread like 3 comments up. beep boop I'm a bot automated PC responses are enabled... lol
  • lexmax said:
    Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
    And this would be the dream! but I don't know many mages in fantasy that wore plate armor or paladins that wielded throwing knives :P so hopefully they can find the line between this is cool and wtf is going on!
    Any class can equip any item of gear or weapon. Whether said gear or weapons benefit that class is not known yet and won't really be understood until we know much more and get into the testing phases.
    you literally already said this in the same thread like 3 comments up. beep boop I'm a bot automated PC responses are enabled... lol
    I'll take that as a complement :)

  • Staffs... Problems in most MMO it's weapon not for mellee combat-more for spells casting etc. Hopes we could use staffs in dif. manner (in deffencive also).
  • Belewyn said:
    Should probably check out the concept art for the cleric ;)
    Yeah, I'm stoked but I'm more worried about the OVER ALL constraints, besides the cleric has the heavy armor but is still not wielding my Morningstar and blessed kite shield!!!
    Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customise gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.
    And this would be the dream! but I don't know many mages in fantasy that wore plate armor or paladins that wielded throwing knives :P so hopefully they can find the line between this is cool and wtf is going on!
  • Even Ashen would allow players to wear weapons and armors they want to, it does not meen it will work that way in practise. More likely there will be few reasonable choises for classes which actually works and other builds will be more or less weird combinations (at least from competitive pov). Thats most likely what is going to happen. However i wish there will be some different kind of gear variations which works nicely so players would not be locked to just one right path.
  • So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
    IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
    Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
    Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

  • It's always very fascinating reading about the various opinions individuals have when it comes to gear and class roles.  Speaking only from my personal experience and interaction with others.  It seems that on the spectrum of :
    <<----Freedom---------------------------------------------------------------------Specific---->>

    there are vast groups all throughout.  But most games, as the OP mentioned, fall towards the more "specific" range. 

    When ESO said that anyone can wear any type of armor and use various weapon types no matter race or class, I was excited at first.  But then for a long while, back when I played, all I saw was DK's with fire staves, everywhere.  It was the go to class/weapon combo at that time.  This of course was years ago.

    In the end, all that matters is if you are able to play the way you want, given the tools available, and enjoying yourself!  If you want to be a healer class, but wear plate armor and wield a two-handed sword, then do it!  If you want to be a tank class, but focus more on DD?  Go for it! 
  • Usually the problem with mixed gear combinations comes, because the most efficient way is to choose that staff + robe to healer (for example), because those gives the best bonuses to healing. Choosing plate armor over cloth usually degreeses maximum mana and its regenaration or healing power itself for trade of defense. And usually group game play supports more that efficiency and specialization than bunch of jack of all trade players.

    One option to support different kind of combinations is to create such abilities which gives that real possibility to take different kind of approach to your class. For example if that healer have possibility to choose abilities which are efficient when you are close to your groupies, you could in this kind of case make your healer more tanky and be a frontline healer to other melee players. Maybe you could have melee weapon skill which heals allies in close proximity when you hit enemy for example, even i guess paladin (tank+cleric) could have that already. But i hope you get my point.

    Also i see that maybe mixed gear combination can work better in PvP content than in PvE. 
  • I think your worry is on stats and their effects, not on gear per se.  Which I agree.  I can certainly be more at home with choosing the fashion behind my cleric, but the stats behind her will determine a lot of how I will play.  Subclasses suggest they are trying to not pidgeonhole players though.  and the transmog will cover more fashionable taste unless they go the way of ffxiv and put needless arbitrary restrictions on what gear your cleric can be seen in.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I don't know about you guys but I just want to be able to wear a robe with a cowl that covers my head and shadows my faces since of course I will spend hours editing for the perfect facial features to just hide it.

    Past that there will be lots of customization and game as far as how in depth that goes that will become more apparent in the next months to year I would guess so let's wait. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    As others have said its a problem of efficiency.
    For gear to be different it must perform different roles.
    Classes by definition also perform different roles.
    Thus gear must work better with some classes than others.
    That is an inescapable fact.

    The trick is to make tuned gear where it can be tuned for specific builds.
    Otherwise you get the problem where someone who chooses to be all powerful by 'specialising' in healing can also be all powerful as a DD and/or a Tank by using the right gear (which they chose specifically to not specialise in).
    That makes a total mockery of the whole specialisation concept unless that jack of all trade ability is neutered in the process to restore some semblance of balance.
    You cant have your cake and eat it.
  • How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
  • Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    Evasion, or augment it with magic>? Just some ideas, of course.
  • Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    With current concept i guess it wont and should not.
    Ariatras said:
    Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    Evasion, or augment it with magic>? Just some ideas, of course.
    Well tank/mage will be more like tank which abilities gets some mages abilities flavors, so those wont be somethimg that boosts tanks protecting skills even more defensive, i guess those augments adds more elemental damage kimd of things if you look mages spells.

    But i have been waiting game where i could play as mage tank. Tank which does not rely on full plate mail and shield, but spellbook full of protective abilities. I would straight away play that. ;)

  • I want to use Fans or Staff instead of spellbooks while playing my mage. I hope we get some options for it too. I bet some fighters/sword holders would like doubleswords or a long large animelike sword or katana.
  • Gear for classes was always an interesting topic for MMORPGs. While I agree that it would be pretty fantastic wearing a caster-type robe as a tank into combat with that IDGAF "Come at me" attitude, it would probably make the character pretty squishy. I'm very interested in the customization of gear and hope we can find out more as the release date gets closer.
  • all depends on balance and does it work as in ESO gear was  depending which patch ie like everybody in heavy armour so to soon to tell but everybody wants to be good but with so many classes and sub classes and mods to skills will be to soon to tell but cleric/cleric will still be best healer and so forth hopefully 
  • So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
    IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
    Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
    Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

    They have the perfect game for you! its called WoW give it a try! we real rpg players and D&D nerds will enjoy our ACTUAL class fantasy like war clerics, sword mages, and alchemists. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2017
    I think your worry is on stats and their effects, not on gear per se.  Which I agree.  I can certainly be more at home with choosing the fashion behind my cleric, but the stats behind her will determine a lot of how I will play.  Subclasses suggest they are trying to not pidgeonhole players though.  and the transmog will cover more fashionable taste unless they go the way of ffxiv and put needless arbitrary restrictions on what gear your cleric can be seen in.
    Ferryman said:
    Usually the problem with mixed gear combinations comes, because the most efficient way is to choose that staff + robe to healer (for example), because those gives the best bonuses to healing. Choosing plate armor over cloth usually degreeses maximum mana and its regenaration or healing power itself for trade of defense. And usually group game play supports more that efficiency and specialization than bunch of jack of all trade players.

    One option to support different kind of combinations is to create such abilities which gives that real possibility to take different kind of approach to your class. For example if that healer have possibility to choose abilities which are efficient when you are close to your groupies, you could in this kind of case make your healer more tanky and be a frontline healer to other melee players. Maybe you could have melee weapon skill which heals allies in close proximity when you hit enemy for example, even i guess paladin (tank+cleric) could have that already. But i hope you get my point.

    Also i see that maybe mixed gear combination can work better in PvP content than in PvE. 
    So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
    IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
    Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
    Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

    Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of think comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like this that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier. be pretty simple to fix make the difference in build choice minimal or obsolete by making the game not a bunch of damage sponges, then the game would be more about skill and intuition and not about brain dead rotations like current WoW, FF14 (which has a lot of dodging and cool interaction!) and GW2.

    Mean while games like ESO  were Announced that literally had everything you could ever want and then was dumbed down ever since. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 
  • I think your worry is on stats and their effects, not on gear per se.  Which I agree.  I can certainly be more at home with choosing the fashion behind my cleric, but the stats behind her will determine a lot of how I will play.  Subclasses suggest they are trying to not pidgeonhole players though.  and the transmog will cover more fashionable taste unless they go the way of ffxiv and put needless arbitrary restrictions on what gear your cleric can be seen in.
    Ferryman said:
    Usually the problem with mixed gear combinations comes, because the most efficient way is to choose that staff + robe to healer (for example), because those gives the best bonuses to healing. Choosing plate armor over cloth usually degreeses maximum mana and its regenaration or healing power itself for trade of defense. And usually group game play supports more that efficiency and specialization than bunch of jack of all trade players.

    One option to support different kind of combinations is to create such abilities which gives that real possibility to take different kind of approach to your class. For example if that healer have possibility to choose abilities which are efficient when you are close to your groupies, you could in this kind of case make your healer more tanky and be a frontline healer to other melee players. Maybe you could have melee weapon skill which heals allies in close proximity when you hit enemy for example, even i guess paladin (tank+cleric) could have that already. But i hope you get my point.

    Also i see that maybe mixed gear combination can work better in PvP content than in PvE. 
    So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
    IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
    Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
    Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

    Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of think comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like this that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier. be pretty simple to fix make the difference in build choice minimal or obsolete by making the game not a bunch of damage sponges, then the game would be more about skill and intuition and not about brain dead rotations like current WoW, FF14 (which has a lot of dodging and cool interaction!) and GW2.

    Mean while games like ESO  were Announced that literally had everything you could ever want and then was dumbed down ever since. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 
    I think most people here have played a pen and paper RPG. and just like everyone is saying even in Pathfinder, DnD, (enter your preferred pen and paper here) There is things you can do but they are not optimal.

    Yes you can put a "Druid" in metal equipment but then you can't cast druid spells this makes you essentially a really weak fighter.

    If you want to be that sneaky rogue wearing heavy plate will give you negative modifiers for sneaking, acrobatics and other dex based skills.

    Pathfinder also has a Arcane spell fail chance on armor so a powerful mage who also wants to use a sword not only will have to split his stats between int, str, and con but he will also have much harder time casting spells the heavier the armor.

    Again all these are possible but they are not optimal just like people are saying you can make that War cleric but it may not be as powerful as a hide in the back robe wearing cleric.
  • I think your worry is on stats and their effects, not on gear per se.  Which I agree.  I can certainly be more at home with choosing the fashion behind my cleric, but the stats behind her will determine a lot of how I will play.  Subclasses suggest they are trying to not pidgeonhole players though.  and the transmog will cover more fashionable taste unless they go the way of ffxiv and put needless arbitrary restrictions on what gear your cleric can be seen in.
    Ferryman said:
    Usually the problem with mixed gear combinations comes, because the most efficient way is to choose that staff + robe to healer (for example), because those gives the best bonuses to healing. Choosing plate armor over cloth usually degreeses maximum mana and its regenaration or healing power itself for trade of defense. And usually group game play supports more that efficiency and specialization than bunch of jack of all trade players.

    One option to support different kind of combinations is to create such abilities which gives that real possibility to take different kind of approach to your class. For example if that healer have possibility to choose abilities which are efficient when you are close to your groupies, you could in this kind of case make your healer more tanky and be a frontline healer to other melee players. Maybe you could have melee weapon skill which heals allies in close proximity when you hit enemy for example, even i guess paladin (tank+cleric) could have that already. But i hope you get my point.

    Also i see that maybe mixed gear combination can work better in PvP content than in PvE. 
    So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
    IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
    Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
    Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

    Dygz said:
    How you gonna tank wearing cloth???
    pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of think comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like t that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier.

    Mean while games like Morrowind were released that literally had everything you could ever want and then every game since they have dumbed down the equipment, spells and everything else. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 
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