Class Roles and Gear Dependency

ArchivedUser

Glowingwren said:

I think your worry is on stats and their effects, not on gear per se.  Which I agree.  I can certainly be more at home with choosing the fashion behind my cleric, but the stats behind her will determine a lot of how I will play.  Subclasses suggest they are trying to not pidgeonhole players though.  and the transmog will cover more fashionable taste unless they go the way of ffxiv and put needless arbitrary restrictions on what gear your cleric can be seen in.

Ferryman said:

Usually the problem with mixed gear combinations comes, because the most efficient way is to choose that staff + robe to healer (for example), because those gives the best bonuses to healing. Choosing plate armor over cloth usually degreeses maximum mana and its regenaration or healing power itself for trade of defense. And usually group game play supports more that efficiency and specialization than bunch of jack of all trade players.

One option to support different kind of combinations is to create such abilities which gives that real possibility to take different kind of approach to your class. For example if that healer have possibility to choose abilities which are efficient when you are close to your groupies, you could in this kind of case make your healer more tanky and be a frontline healer to other melee players. Maybe you could have melee weapon skill which heals allies in close proximity when you hit enemy for example, even i guess paladin (tank+cleric) could have that already. But i hope you get my point.

Also i see that maybe mixed gear combination can work better in PvP content than in PvE. 

Rune_Relic said:

So you want a healer to be a tank, a tank to be a DD and a DD to be a healer ?
IMO you wear gear appropriate for your functionality.
Which means gear and weapons will be more optimal for one functional class than another.
Because the function of that gear and weapon will harmonise with those class functions better.

Dygz said:

How you gonna tank wearing cloth???

pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of think comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like t that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier.

Mean while games like Morrowind were released that literally had everything you could ever want and then every game since they have dumbed down the equipment, spells and everything else. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 

ArchivedUser

Ariatras said:

Dygz said:

How you gonna tank wearing cloth???

Evasion, or augment it with magic>? Just some ideas, of course.

That sounds more like a kite than a tank!!  

ArchivedUser

MonarckGaming said:

pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of thinking comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like t that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier.

Mean while games like Morrowind were released that literally had everything you could ever want and then every game since they have dumbed down the equipment, spells and everything else. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 

lmao
I started playing D&D around 1981.
So, no, my way of thinking comes directly from table-top RPGs.
In D&D, and AD&D and even up through 3.5 - "tanks" wore plate and chain; not cloth.
We didn't call that role tank at the time - it is an MMORPG term.
But the reason a tank is called a tank is because a tank is heavily armored with plate.
A Fighter wearing cloth in D&D is not likely to survive long.
That changed with 3.0...which as really modeled after MMORPGs...especially 4.0.
Dual-classing and prestige classes helped to get rid of armor restrictions.

ArchivedUser

Rivest said:

Again all these are possible but they are not optimal just like people are saying you can make that War cleric but it may not be as powerful as a hide in the back robe wearing cleric.

In D&D, Clerics were battle-clerics, typically wearing chainmail or plate.
Hide in the back cleric is an MMORPG trope.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Rivest said:

Again all these are possible but they are not optimal just like people are saying you can make that War cleric but it may not be as powerful as a hide in the back robe wearing cleric.

In D&D, Clerics were battle-clerics, typically wearing chainmail or plate.
Hide in the back cleric is an MMORPG trope.

I know, but I was stating that in terms of this game building a cleric to be a hybrid dps/healer may not be as powerful as a pure dps or pure healer. possible terribly worded =P

ArchivedUser

MonarckGaming said:

lexmax said:

Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 

yeah, "optimal" shouldn't be a thing when it comes to weapons classes and armor types. for mages there are things called spell blades, magic books, magical sensors, staves, wands etc etc, if this is yet another game where the only thing a mage can viable wield is a staff or a tank must have a Kite shield or a ranger a bow then it's just going to melt into all the rest of the garbage that has populated the MMO genre in the last 10 years. 

Also, every weapon in the game will already have animation made for them so all they would need to do is unlock them for all classes and allow us to augment them within their current class system. haven't made an MMO but I've made a moderately successful game by steam standards and understand the programming and animating that goes with this. 
The difficult part comes with balancing this sort of freedom... that is near impossible T.T 

If items are different, then there is ALWAYS an optimal setup. The only way to subvert an "optimal" or avoid the "meta" is to essentially make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull. So yeah having choice with meaningful, impactful stats also means there will be a meta, and optimal path of gear. Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too. There isn't really a way to avoid this other than to try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

Ariatras said:

Dygz said:

How you gonna tank wearing cloth???

Evasion, or augment it with magic>? Just some ideas, of course.

That sounds more like a kite than a tank!!  

Does it? Think of spells like Ironskin, which essentially turns you into a plate wearing tank, except you wear clothes. As for Evasion, such tanks have always existed. (Rogue tanking/soloing Gruul at 70 anyone? )

ArchivedUser

I have reviewed a lot of YouTube and read a lot in the forums here. Unfortunately doing any keyword searching either doesn't work or I just cannot find it so sorry if repost. But that being said... Can anyone provide definitive statements on whether there will be any class, race or gender binding? In short can any player play any combination of class, race and gender?

ArchivedUser

No race / class / gender binds.

ArchivedUser

Belewyn said:

No race / class / gender binds.

Thanks Belewyn.  Is this conjecture or do you have information that I have not been able to find?

ArchivedUser

NolonDragard said:

Belewyn said:

No race / class / gender binds.

Thanks Belewyn.  Is this conjecture or do you have information that I have not been able to find?

It's confirmed.

ArchivedUser

Yeah this one is confirmed in multiple streams, the FAQ in discord and if several direct posts

ArchivedUser

Thank you guys.  I have not been able to find anything specific on that. Does anyone know if key word searching is working.  Maybe it's just that I'm mostly chatting from cell browser.

ArchivedUser

Unfortunately yeah, the search bar is one of our broken forum features =/

ArchivedUser

I do believe they have been meaning to fix the key word search for a bit now

ArchivedUser

Most of the items for fix were on hold till PAX concluded so the team can focus resources. I anticipate fixes not long after it concludes

ArchivedUser

Cool so I'll wait a bit before asking big questions to give time to allow for fix on search.  Thanks

ArchivedUser

@NolonDragard This has a lot of information compiled to make your journey easier.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/10158/quotebin-quotes-of-intrepid-team-from-discord/p1

ArchivedUser

UnknownSystemError said:

@NolonDragard This has a lot of information compiled to make your journey easier.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/10158/quotebin-quotes-of-intrepid-team-from-discord/p1

Thank you.

ArchivedUser

DeathsProxy said:

MonarckGaming said:

lexmax said:

Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 

yeah, "optimal" shouldn't be a thing when it comes to weapons classes and armor types. for mages there are things called spell blades, magic books, magical sensors, staves, wands etc etc, if this is yet another game where the only thing a mage can viable wield is a staff or a tank must have a Kite shield or a ranger a bow then it's just going to melt into all the rest of the garbage that has populated the MMO genre in the last 10 years. 

Also, every weapon in the game will already have animation made for them so all they would need to do is unlock them for all classes and allow us to augment them within their current class system. haven't made an MMO but I've made a moderately successful game by steam standards and understand the programming and animating that goes with this. 
The difficult part comes with balancing this sort of freedom... that is near impossible T.T 

If items are different, then there is ALWAYS an optimal setup. The only way to subvert an "optimal" or avoid the "meta" is to essentially make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull. So yeah having choice with meaningful, impactful stats also means there will be a meta, and optimal path of gear. Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too. There isn't really a way to avoid this other than to try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered.

Your entire response is one giant facepalm 

"Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too."
if the game is perfect balance then whatever let the sheep be sheep at least I or anyone else wont be playing a worthless class.
"make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull."
explain the difference of shadow bolt and fireball (WoW)? or Aimed shot and choas bolt (WoW)? how about in Venom bite and stormbite (FF14)? or how about OSRS being the longest running mmo with literally everything being exactly the same down to the stats and look of gear and animations? literally everything in a MMO is exactly the same, does damage might have a unique utility attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage, giving it a flashes animation makes it feel like it is different because its about Role Playing a class. nothing you said changes the fact that optimal should be negligible. "try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered." literally exactly what i said reworded... so I'm confused what the entire purpose your post served.

ArchivedUser

Dygz said:

MonarckGaming said:

pretty apparent not a single one of you have played a table top RPG this way of thinking comes directly from WoW, EQ OSRS and other games like t that took the diversity in a mmorpg's and killed it because it was easier.

Mean while games like Morrowind were released that literally had everything you could ever want and then every game since they have dumbed down the equipment, spells and everything else. I'm not asking for literally a D&D online but at least give people diversity beyond the brain dead trash that has been coming out last 5-8 years. 

lmao
I started playing D&D around 1981.
So, no, my way of thinking comes directly from table-top RPGs.
In D&D, and AD&D and even up through 3.5 - "tanks" wore plate and chain; not cloth.
We didn't call that role tank at the time - it is an MMORPG term.
But the reason a tank is called a tank is because a tank is heavily armored with plate.
A Fighter wearing cloth in D&D is not likely to survive long.
That changed with 3.0...which as really modeled after MMORPGs...especially 4.0.
Dual-classing and prestige classes helped to get rid of armor restrictions.

The best tanks in D&D from release was Monk (arguably any high dex class) because early D&D always had this problem where getting hit was pretty much death, evasion based tanks wore no armor, cloth, or leather so yeah take your BS somewhere else! Also if you happen to have a 2.0 guide laying around go read paladin literally calls him a heavily armored tank able to withstand devastating attacks. So idk if you just remember your numbers wrong or talking out the butt! so yeah GET OUTTA HERE!

Edit: obviously this changed from DM to DM but if you followed the standard of fighting things 1-2 CR over you then good luck.mister 1.0 tank

ArchivedUser

MonarckGaming said:

DeathsProxy said:

MonarckGaming said:

lexmax said:

Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 

yeah, "optimal" shouldn't be a thing when it comes to weapons classes and armor types. for mages there are things called spell blades, magic books, magical sensors, staves, wands etc etc, if this is yet another game where the only thing a mage can viable wield is a staff or a tank must have a Kite shield or a ranger a bow then it's just going to melt into all the rest of the garbage that has populated the MMO genre in the last 10 years. 

Also, every weapon in the game will already have animation made for them so all they would need to do is unlock them for all classes and allow us to augment them within their current class system. haven't made an MMO but I've made a moderately successful game by steam standards and understand the programming and animating that goes with this. 
The difficult part comes with balancing this sort of freedom... that is near impossible T.T 

If items are different, then there is ALWAYS an optimal setup. The only way to subvert an "optimal" or avoid the "meta" is to essentially make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull. So yeah having choice with meaningful, impactful stats also means there will be a meta, and optimal path of gear. Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too. There isn't really a way to avoid this other than to try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered.

Your entire response is one giant facepalm 

"Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too."
if the game is perfect balance then whatever let the sheep be sheep at least I or anyone else wont be playing a worthless class.
"make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull."
explain the difference of shadow bolt and fireball (WoW)? or Aimed shot and choas bolt (WoW)? how about in Venom bite and stormbite (FF14)? or how about OSRS being the longest running mmo with literally everything being exactly the same down to the stats and look of gear and animations? literally everything in a MMO is exactly the same, does damage might have a unique utility attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage, giving it a flashes animation makes it feel like it is different because its about Role Playing a class. nothing you said changes the fact that optimal should be negligible. "try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered." literally exactly what i said reworded... so I'm confused what the entire purpose your post served.

I'm sorry did you just change the argument from gear to classes? Even still perfect balance doesn't exist the two best ways to balance a game is with either rock paper scissors approach or by flavor of the month (though many may dislike this it still is one of the best ways to balance). I believe the devs have said they plan on going for the rock, paper, scissors way which means you won't have to worry about playing a "worthless class" though many people exaggerate how bad a class is when its only a few percent worse then others. But gearing your character appropriately will still effect how good you are. A fighter running around with a staff may not be as good as a fighter running around with a two handed sword. 

P.S. The difference between fireball and shadowbolt is Fireball is a filler ability with a chance to proc hotstreak which allows you to insta-cast your strongest spell. Shadowbolt is a resource builder that allows you to cast stronger spells. Makes for a huge difference in game play. one is more reliable while the other relies on RNG. But I guess if you want to generalize things to the point of "literally everything in a MMO is exactly the same, does damage might have a unique utility attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage" they are both ranged magical damaging abilities... just like both Harry potter and Doctor Strange are about someone who fights off a great evil with magic. Too much generalization is a bad thing.

ArchivedUser

No one has said anything about free choice and building how you want.
Different builds require penalties and boons.
Different builds must be different.
Arguing otherwise is beyond illogical.

ArchivedUser

Rivest said:

MonarckGaming said:

DeathsProxy said:

MonarckGaming said:

lexmax said:

Any class can wear any gear or wield any weapon, however what is optimal for that class/subclass hasn't been revealed, and probably won't even be known fully until testing. 

yeah, "optimal" shouldn't be a thing when it comes to weapons classes and armor types. for mages there are things called spell blades, magic books, magical sensors, staves, wands etc etc, if this is yet another game where the only thing a mage can viable wield is a staff or a tank must have a Kite shield or a ranger a bow then it's just going to melt into all the rest of the garbage that has populated the MMO genre in the last 10 years. 

Also, every weapon in the game will already have animation made for them so all they would need to do is unlock them for all classes and allow us to augment them within their current class system. haven't made an MMO but I've made a moderately successful game by steam standards and understand the programming and animating that goes with this. 
The difficult part comes with balancing this sort of freedom... that is near impossible T.T 

If items are different, then there is ALWAYS an optimal setup. The only way to subvert an "optimal" or avoid the "meta" is to essentially make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull. So yeah having choice with meaningful, impactful stats also means there will be a meta, and optimal path of gear. Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too. There isn't really a way to avoid this other than to try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered.

Your entire response is one giant facepalm 

"Even if a game is designed for perfect balance, people and gamers with a sense of elitism will always create a meta which the masses will adhere too."
if the game is perfect balance then whatever let the sheep be sheep at least I or anyone else wont be playing a worthless class.
"make everything the same, which essentially makes things dull."
explain the difference of shadow bolt and fireball (WoW)? or Aimed shot and choas bolt (WoW)? how about in Venom bite and stormbite (FF14)? or how about OSRS being the longest running mmo with literally everything being exactly the same down to the stats and look of gear and animations? literally everything in a MMO is exactly the same, does damage might have a unique utility attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage, giving it a flashes animation makes it feel like it is different because its about Role Playing a class. nothing you said changes the fact that optimal should be negligible. "try and "balance" things so they are not vastly overpowered." literally exactly what i said reworded... so I'm confused what the entire purpose your post served.

I'm sorry did you just change the argument from gear to classes? Even still perfect balance doesn't exist the two best ways to balance a game is with either rock paper scissors approach or by flavor of the month (though many may dislike this it still is one of the best ways to balance). I believe the devs have said they plan on going for the rock, paper, scissors way which means you won't have to worry about playing a "worthless class" though many people exaggerate how bad a class is when its only a few percent worse then others. But gearing your character appropriately will still effect how good you are. A fighter running around with a staff may not be as good as a fighter running around with a two handed sword. 

P.S. The difference between fireball and shadowbolt is Fireball is a filler ability with a chance to proc hotstreak which allows you to insta-cast your strongest spell. Shadowbolt is a resource builder that allows you to cast stronger spells. Makes for a huge difference in game play. one is more reliable while the other relies on RNG. But I guess if you want to generalize things to the point of "literally everything in a MMO is exactly the same, does damage might have a unique utility attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage" they are both ranged magical damaging abilities... just like both Harry potter and Doctor Strange are about someone who fights off a great evil with magic. Too much generalization is a bad thing.

Actually y'all are the ones that changed from gear to classes because apparently everyone wants the same thing Customization and gear destroys customization (no one can tell me that this isn't true) but literally this post is dead because a CM already got on here and said all gear and weapons can be used by all classes and that all gear can be customized through crafting to fit (most) builds, then people turned this isn't a chat about Min-Maxing and the impossibility of having a game balanced enough to make Min-Maxing irrelevant and how tanks cant wear cloth cause there were no D&D tanks and a few people actually had some feasible ways of going about making gear cosmetic but that doesn't change the fact that I would like that if someone wants to play a parry evasion rogue they can go rogue then tank and be the parties tank. Did i miss anything?

P.S. besides you taking a obvious over statement that you then told me that both fireball and shadow bolt are filler spells that combo into a harder hitting spell in slightly different ways (proving my point "does damage might have a UNIQUE UTILITY attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage") that apparently make them so different from each other I could add them to stick figures that do the same animation and you would think it was completely different spells??? get outta here! 

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

No one has said anything about free choice and building how you want.
Different builds require penalties and boons.
Different builds must be different.
Arguing otherwise is beyond illogical

(COUGH COUGH) 

Don't worry, they've said you can wear whatever you want, and customize gear stat wise using crafting. The only limit might be abilities. Like a shield bash will not work without a shield, etc. So yeah you could make a plate wearing mage. At least that's the vision now. Only utilities will be class locked.

So about that illogical argument....

edit: hopefully this is a good thing for you as well but to each their own.

ArchivedUser

MonarckGaming said:

P.S. besides you taking a obvious over statement that you then told me that both fireball and shadow bolt are filler spells that combo into a harder hitting spell in slightly different ways (proving my point "does damage might have a UNIQUE UTILITY attached to it and after so many secs it did this much damage") that apparently make them so different from each other I could add them to stick figures that do the same animation and you would think it was completely different spells??? get outta here! 

There's that over generalization again... yes if you looked at it from a silly stick figure animation it might look the same but in reality they offer different playstyles. You might cast fireball once then cast pyroblast then cast fire ball 4 times then pyroblast the next time you might cast 2 times and then pyroblast. It's based upon RNG if you're lucky you can do high damage if unlucky you might do lower damage. It adds flavor to the class because you have to be ready to cast a spell that might pop or not. While shadowbolt follows a standard rotation. build resource, spend resource. But then whats the difference between a pistol and a assault rifle? in a stick figure animation they would be exactly the same would they not? But when you really look at it, one has better control, rate of fire, and range so stick figure animations really don't do anything justice just like over-generalizations...

ArchivedUser

That drove me crazy in Black Desert so I'm grateful for the customization.

ArchivedUser

I've never understood gender locking, but race locking classes for lore reasons I always thought was cool. To use an example many are familiar with, in early WoW Blood Elves could be paladins because that's what their fighting units did, study the Light, therefore there were no Blood Elf Warriors. Also only in Vanilla, only Horde had Shamans while only Alliance players could be Pallys because lore.

Since then they relaxed it and we get dumb shit now like Cow Pallys.

ArchivedUser

Karthos said:

I've never understood gender locking, but race locking classes for lore reasons I always thought was cool. To use an example many are familiar with, in early WoW Blood Elves could be paladins because that's what their fighting units did, study the Light, therefore there were no Blood Elf Warriors. Also only in Vanilla, only Horde had Shamans while only Alliance players could be Pallys because lore.

Since then they relaxed it and we get dumb shit now like Cow Pallys.

Race\Class locking makes some sense if it supports lore agreed. However, on the lighter side I once a long time ago decided to make a DnD Kobold Paladin using allready in place and official rules. He had an amazing back story and It was a fantastic character. So though good lore can somewhat justify locking a class to a race or locking a class from a race but better story will break thoes locks. Or it allows for better stories when we either allow thoes locks to be broken or never shackle them to begin with.

ArchivedUser

I would like to ask that the blasting and disparaging remarks stop and no longer continue.

As OP I will submit that this discussion can legitimately wander into brief comments regarding gear and abilities. This is perfectly acceptable because in most systems gear and abilities are at least best used by specific classes and this discussion though specifically about gender and race locking if classes it is about classes so little relevant comments about gear or abilities are fine.

That said I would like to weigh in on the meta build and character diversity discussion.

It is not and should never be a goal to kill the concept of the "Meta Build". Any character that is specifically spec'ed for a specific task should be astonishingly amazing at that one thing. I, for one do want my brain surgeon to be astonishingly amazing at brain surgery. I do not want him sacrificing his brain surgery skills to be any good at any thing else; that would be terrifying. But although the "Meta" should never be quashed the players that want to diversify their characters should also never be penalized for adopting diversity. Having diversity should be rewarded just like rock solid single purpose builds should be. They both can be viable as long as the game mechanics reward accomplishment and do not penalized to discourage variation. This is possible by equipment having little actual effect on a characters ability. Yes a two handed sword should do more damage than a light rapier. No wespon should do so much more damage that no one would ever consider using one over the other. Unless the build specifically supports one over the other. If the 2h sword swinger is an extremely strong and damage resistant character he would naturally be better if welding the 2h sword instead of the light rapier. If the rapier wielder is lyth and quick why the hell would he ever consider choosing the 2h sword instead? In this example both the 2h and light rapier wielders should be pretty much capable of same amount of DPS as each other if using the best weapon. They would just deal that DPS in a different way. If they switched up they should also perform comparatively to each other because now they are both equally handicapped. But if both are optimally spec'ed but one is not optimally equipped the illequipped one should have a serious disadvantage and only be victorious if a better player.

That's my 2 cents.

Thank you...