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In-game map discussion

With the focus on immersion and the whole "make mmo's great again" mindset. I personally think it would be interesting to take a look at the in-game map and trying to do something more with it. I feel that many MMOs often offer to much information with the maps in game and it often kills that immersion and doesn't encourage players to go out and explore as much.

Having a crafting profession like a cartographer could be interesting, and is something that I have yet to really see in other games. What are your thoughts on this minor, but important feature of an MMO.
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Comments

  • I definitely think they should have a cartography feature in the game, especially since they really want to emphasize exploration.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    This was discussed in an earlier thread and was a well accepted suggestion. There was a lot of talk about being able to craft and sell maps to spots that perhaps only your character knew about.

    The thought about the maps purchased by a player automatically updating as the cartographer that sold them the map updated their copy was discussed.

    On the other side of that was the theory that if the game plays the way IS believes it should/will, then maps will need to be updated frequently even if a player mapped the majority of the world. Therefore, the players should be responsible for buying/obtaining new maps.

    I think a cartographer skill would be cool as long as it was not a constant thing. So if you were out running around with your friends your skill wouldn't be getting better just because you are out and about. Otherwise it's like Athletics/Speech in older RPG's, no one ever really practices them but they are always one of the better skills.
  • Not confirmed, but what if there is no "world map"? What you see on your mini-map/radar is it. You are just going to need to remember that Bumbling Brook node is before Cedar Creek, on the other side of Pirates Bluff. Adds a whole new depth of people being lost in game, and having to discover for themselves. How this node may be tactically more important to develop vs that one takes on a whole new depth when you can't look down from space like you have a fantasy GPS system.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Not confirmed, but what if there is no "world map"? What you see on your mini-map/radar is it. You are just going to need to remember that Bumbling Brook node is before Cedar Creek, on the other side of Pirates Bluff. Adds a whole new depth of people being lost in game, and having to discover for themselves. How this node may be tactically more important to develop vs that one takes on a whole new depth when you can't look down from space like you have a fantasy GPS system.
    I grew up on MMOs that originally did not have any in-game map. It was nice and immersive. However, how many players will be upset due to the fact that they have to memorize every little detail in order to know where they are or where stuff is. I don't think it would go down to well in today's gaming world.
    I think a cartographer skill would be cool as long as it was not a constant thing. So if you were out running around with your friends your skill wouldn't be getting better just because you are out and about. Otherwise it's like Athletics/Speech in older RPG's, no one ever really practices them but they are always one of the better skills.
    I think it should be less about skill and more ability quality and rarity. There are crude maps, then there are detailed maps. Also a map isn't going to magically show you your location...unless, there is magic involved of course lol.
  • Many players would be upset with no mini-map because VR lacks the layers of reference cues necessary for them to navigate.
    The problem is that for many people there aren't enough details for them to memorize.

    We know from PAX that there will be a mini-map.

  • Yep, I wasn't advocating for no mini-map. I was advocating for no "Hit M to open World Map" with a nice shiny red arrow showing "You are Here." that basically gives an idea of how the world is laid out from geographic and tactical sense. If I see that island off across the sea, but realize by running around the coastline I can get to a bridge on the opposite side that I can't visually see at the moment, but is on my world map, will I ever go swimming? Or would I just say "Damn, the water is dangerous, I guess I should skirt the coastline till I can walk across that bridge." Then once I get to the island by swimming realize "Dammit, there was a bridge all the time."
  • I think maps would be important in Ashes in order to be able to see Node development and progresss.
    How that map is integrated and how it functions I don't know ^^
    Im not very good with directions ^^
    x.x
  • Having no map is too extreme imo. I could understand it if this was an MMO of B.C. times and people didn't even have compass to find their ways but... Well. There will be a world map in Ashes and it will be self-exploration so they are not going to show us the entire map and let us know everything about the world which is good. I also would like to see hidden points of interests just like how nodes will be hidden in the beginning.
  • If the map slowly unveils as we travel then my opinion would be different.
    I don't think players should be able to sell maps, otherwise that experience will be lost on potential new players several months (crossing fingers, years) in.

    However, if the skill allowed you to unveil a greater radius on your map as you traveled and eventually start filling in some detail for free, like a monster cave everyone else would have to walk close enough to activate, that would be cool.
  • I really like having a map in game.  Having a Fog of War is just fine, meaning the only exposed areas of the map are the ones you uncovered and show, the rest is covered by fog.
  • This topic gives me memories of when I got lost in the desert in BDO because I just went straight in there without a compass. Frustrating, but fun in some way.
  • ckooken said:
    I feel that many MMOs often offer to much information with the maps in game and it often kills that immersion and doesn't encourage players to go out and explore as much.

    Having a crafting profession like a cartographer could be interesting
    If your issue with maps is that they show too much, and you offer cartography as a necessary tool to build maps, then I have to tell you that cartography will only delay your issue.

    On start no one will see nothing, but very quickly people will learn maps and after exploring terrain they will still have everything shown, so cartography just delays the inevitable.

    Or do you suggest cartography to only be able to draw rudimentary maps, without any detailed information? And also without "GPS" mark to show where in the map you currently are while you are looking at it?
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Yep, I wasn't advocating for no mini-map. I was advocating for no "Hit M to open World Map" with a nice shiny red arrow showing "You are Here." that basically gives an idea of how the world is laid out from geographic and tactical sense. If I see that island off across the sea, but realize by running around the coastline I can get to a bridge on the opposite side that I can't visually see at the moment, but is on my world map, will I ever go swimming? Or would I just say "Damn, the water is dangerous, I guess I should skirt the coastline till I can walk across that bridge." Then once I get to the island by swimming realize "Dammit, there was a bridge all the time."
    I spend hours swimming around continents to uncover as much of the Fog of War as possible.
    But, I'm an Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
    I would probably be seeking some way to make the sea less dangerous for me to explore, regardless of whether there is a bridge

    If you aren't primarily an Explorer, I suppose you'll try to find ways to skip exploring.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


  • For anyone that wants realism... fog of war is not an option.

    In fact, you should never see the map ever, any kind of map. And there should be no way to "uncover it".

    Perhaps with cartography, you could draw sketches on piece of paper then look at that piece of paper, and try to determine where you are by looking and mountains and rivers around you.

    For realism, this is the most you should have.

    Anything above that, eliminates realism, and then, when realism is out of the window, anything goes really.
  • Well, realisim IMO is the worst form of theatre. Nothing like the smell of rotting food for the sake of being "real" enough.

    No map could be interesting, guess I will get out the old compass and protractor if this comes to pass. It would be nice if we had an in game compass at least though.
  • Player created maps is a cool idea, don't know how exactly it would be implemented, but it would be interesting.
  • All I want is just the ability to set multiple waypoints.

    Im a simple man with simple needs.
  • Karthos said:
    All I want is just the ability to set multiple waypoints.
    This is a path towards automatization. We don't want that.

    We want players to actively travel, and not travel while AFK. \o/
  • Dygz said:

    I spend hours swimming around continents to uncover as much of the Fog of War as possible.
    But, I'm an Explorer 87%; Socializer 73% ; Achiever 47%; Killer 0%
    I would probably be seeking some way to make the sea less dangerous for me to explore, regardless of whether there is a bridge

    If you aren't primarily an Explorer, I suppose you'll try to find ways to skip exploring.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    @Dygz,
    Really connect with you on that.  
    And I really hope we've got some sort of Underwater Breathing potion too...!


  • Much as I'd like cartography of some sort, if not available excepting the mini-map, then I wonder if we'll be able to add 'notes' of any sort to our game (e.g. 'Red Snake area'/'Swamp with useful mushrooms') for our own use...else I'll be writing in a notebook in that 'new old fashioned way.'
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2017
    Gothix said:
    Karthos said:
    All I want is just the ability to set multiple waypoints.
    This is a path towards automatization. We don't want that.

    We want players to actively travel, and not travel while AFK. \o/
    Not that kind of way point. 

    I'm talking being able to mark the map with more than one mark. Do you can set up strategy, point out multiple places. Or just mark where a caravan is as well as where it's headed. Stuff like that.

    But you're also deluded if you don't think AFK running won't be a part of a game with minimal fast travel...
     
  • Karthos said:

    But you're also deluded if you don't think AFK running won't be a part of a game with minimal fast travel...
     
    Running straight, sure. You will get stuck in some terrain obstacle after a while for sure.

    As long as we don't have guided AFK travel.
  • Maps can be cool if they do it right. In some ways I like the auto mapping features of some games but in this game... not sure how that would work. Stuff changes based on the nodes. I guess maps would need to be dynamic. That or you would need to be able to make notes. In that regard the most updated maps would in fact have value... so like you said you could become a cartographer as a viable profession. Having an old map might help you navigate a bit but the updated maps could show hunting, monster populations, new cities, enemy camps. 

    The one thing I can do without though is the radar or active mini map so many games have started to use. 


  • Karthos said:
    Gothix said:
    Karthos said:
    All I want is just the ability to set multiple waypoints.
    This is a path towards automatization. We don't want that.

    We want players to actively travel, and not travel while AFK. \o/
    Not that kind of way point. 

    I'm talking being able to mark the map with more than one mark. Do you can set up strategy, point out multiple places. Or just mark where a caravan is as well as where it's headed. Stuff like that.

    But you're also deluded if you don't think AFK running won't be a part of a game with minimal fast travel...
     
    I think what Gothix means by AFK travel is like in BDO where you can set down a waypoint and it will take you there; avoiding all obstacles and what not. I agree that type of thing should not be in a game that emphasizes exploration and doesn't want to have fast travel, it would be counterproductive. 
  • Zastro said:
    Karthos said:
    Gothix said:
    Karthos said:
    All I want is just the ability to set multiple waypoints.
    This is a path towards automatization. We don't want that.

    We want players to actively travel, and not travel while AFK. \o/
    Not that kind of way point. 

    I'm talking being able to mark the map with more than one mark. Do you can set up strategy, point out multiple places. Or just mark where a caravan is as well as where it's headed. Stuff like that.

    But you're also deluded if you don't think AFK running won't be a part of a game with minimal fast travel...
     
    I think what Gothix means by AFK travel is like in BDO where you can set down a waypoint and it will take you there; avoiding all obstacles and what not. I agree that type of thing should not be in a game that emphasizes exploration and doesn't want to have fast travel, it would be counterproductive. 
    Didn't bother with that dumpster fire of a game. Was unaware this bastardization of the term "waypoints" existed.

    thanks for the heads up.
  • Gothix said:
    For anyone that wants realism... fog of war is not an option.

    In fact, you should never see the map ever, any kind of map. And there should be no way to "uncover it".

    Perhaps with cartography, you could draw sketches on piece of paper then look at that piece of paper, and try to determine where you are by looking and mountains and rivers around you.

    For realism, this is the most you should have.

    Anything above that, eliminates realism, and then, when realism is out of the window, anything goes really.
    Fun trumps realism - especially since video games don't have the tech to provide the range of senses to adequately emulate reality.
  • Good thread. I like the idea of having a fog of war. It would give a more exciting explorative experience to the game. Some are saying that we should have no map at all and I'm not against that, but it sure would be frustrating when you need to find that one place, say that Tavern that you just were at before you went into the woods to do a quest, but you don't know which way the Tavern is afterwards. Well, I suppose a mini-map would solve that but that would depend on the range of the mini map. Anyway, there should be something in place to bring Hands-On exploration into the game. A mapping or cartography skill is a good idea. But trading maps to other players, like someone said, would ruin the experience for newer players who will vie for the easier way instead of going through the exciting exploration that early players would experience. 
  • Another "yes" vote for fog of war type map - If possible could be a rough draft on parchment ("mountains over here-ish, ocean here and goes on for... someways", etc).

    As one explores more the map gets more detailed ranging from largest visible objects down to smallest. If possible a "Compare map with..." trade type mechanic would be a way to trade details with each other, maybe even sell map details to each other.

  • I have a rather detailed idea about how maps should be handled in an MMO.
    It's too much info to go into detail here.

    However, there should be some parts of the world that the map details should be restricted to LOW, where that due to some magical enchantment of the area, it's not possible for anything to create any detailed map of the area.

    Other areas of the world (outside settled and known areas) can be created at a lower more detailed level.  However, this should take time, and require the player to be in the area multiple times for a good amount of time before higher tiered clarity on their map will show up.

    The world needs to KEEP ITS SECRETS too.  It means that all areas of the world are subject to change, as well, if you haven't been in a previously mapped part of the world after some amount of time, you will lose the level of detail/clarity of your map and the tier of the map will suffer.  

    Traversing the world should be difficult, dangerous and without any easy map or path for the player to follow.

    Too many games just give up the game world so easily, having 80% of it mapped out and uncover-able within a few days of adventuring about.

    It needs to be 80% in the other direction.  80% of the world unknown and difficult and time-consuming to map and subject to change.
  • This is def an interesting idea but I'm interested to see how it would be implemented. Maybe something along the lines of map discovery. You'd have to buy a new piece of the map to complete map completion for that character or explore new areas for the benefits of raw materials or dungeons/raids? This would add a new market to the player base by having a profession like Cartography because players could then sell map pieces for those who want to explore. They could also possibly be able to decypher maps that players find out in the world and for a fee they could take them to the destination that is on the map.

    Would be very cool!


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