I think that maps started to give more and more information to players as a result of addons. Developers then felt the need to include similar features due to the number of people using the addons or the advantage said addon affords them.
Can you ever truly complete a map if the world is always changing?
Entire empires have risen and fallen in the world over the past 2000 years. The land stays the same, but it's how we view it that changes.
As a hobby I collect maps. The coolest one I have is a 16th century map of the world. Europe is pretty detailed, as is Asia, but North and South America are really jacked up and misshapen.
I love to look at the lines changing over time, such as my 1880's map and then my 1930's map, to see a huge part of the middle East is the Ottoman Empire. But then it's broken up into Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria in the 1930s.
Kind of like how, if a large metropolis was to fall, and the nodes all split off. Very relevant to this game in my opinion.
Maps change all the time. It's what keeps the map makers in business.
I think designing a Cartography mechanic for an ever-changing world would be quite the challenge, but if the devs think they have a reasonably easy way to implement that, sure. They should give it a shot.
I personally like the idea of maps changing regularly (and too erratically for some outside website to track easily). Not necessarily major landmarks but minor ones (and even major ones occasionally...like a dungeon closing down due to an earthquake or just having no monsters left to harvest)
That would mean your map is only as up to date as the last time you visited any particular area. Over time things change; forests fall, animals migrate, resources get depleted, etc. So just because you gathered that flower last week doesn't mean it will be there for you today.
I would then hope you could sell your understanding of the world last you saw to others. This would encourage your to continually explore the world and, for those who don't like extensive exploring but want to know, to be able to purchase your knowledge of places.
Another proponent for Fog of War. The ability to add and name our own waypoints would also be an excellent addition. To be able to note down those places that are of special importance to me, with a choice of icons, would be great.
I work for a company that makes mapping and navigation apps, and people love to drop points, and love a variety of icons, to note down where things of importance to them have happened. This provides them with the feeling that they are making their own maps and creating their own stories. In our context this is a huge dollop of player agency.
I would also like if we could do our own overlays, ala heat maps. Many mods in other games do this, but allowing the player to draw their own, directly onto their map and be able to turn layers on and off would be an amazing system that would provide a huge benefit to those of us that like to keep track of things.
My personal wish for the world map is to be fairly sparse in information. Name the nodes and major geographical features, maybe a few places of renown (that everyone knows from basic lore) but apart from that leave the map empty for players to add to.
I definitely think they should have a cartography feature in the game, especially since they really want to emphasize exploration.
I hope there will be no maps. An in game manual map drawing feature might be kind of cool, but no auto updates as long as you walk around kind of map. I prefer the "You will have to remember where things are" kind of situation tho :P
Throughout most of it, most people didn't have access to maps. Yet thousands of people every year managed to find their way across countries and continents every year on pilgrimages, wars, trading etc.
How did they do it then?
Every body knew the important basics, ie London is in England, Paris is in France, Azerbaijan is somewhere near Russia on the continent.
So you'd get directions from your little village on which road would lead to Paris, then at the next village you'd do the same, until you got to Paris, where the knowledge would change, they might have more information on where to go next, or what to look out for etc.
Crusaders (i think) had mugs they took with them to drink from on their journey, with a list of the town's they'd need to stop at to find their destination. All you need is to find the next nearest town. and so on.
To Implement this in the game world, you wouldn't need maps, just compasses and npcs in towns offering basic directions etc.
That way you COULD cope with a cartography skill even if the maps made became out of date.
Throughout most of it, most people didn't have access to maps. Yet thousands of people every year managed to find their way across countries and continents every year on pilgrimages, wars, trading etc.
How did they do it then?
Every body knew the important basics, ie London is in England, Paris is in France, Azerbaijan is somewhere near Russia on the continent.
So you'd get directions from your little village on which road would lead to Paris, then at the next village you'd do the same, until you got to Paris, where the knowledge would change, they might have more information on where to go next, or what to look out for etc.
Crusaders (i think) had mugs they took with them to drink from on their journey, with a list of the town's they'd need to stop at to find their destination. All you need is to find the next nearest town. and so on.
To Implement this in the game world, you wouldn't need maps, just compasses and npcs in towns offering basic directions etc.
That way you COULD cope with a cartography skill even if the maps made became out of date.
Nice idea, in theory. But the game world won't be super big I think. Not big enough to get properly lost in, anyway. So an online map would spring up quickly. However, something like roadsigns I think would be amazing. I even use them today. If I have to go to city or village Y, I go, oh, right that's near X, and will drive in that direction. I'll only get directions (gps) once I am in the actual village I want to be at.
Pretty sure the nodes won't be named on the dev generated map. We won't know where nodes are until settlements pop up.
I wonder if the mini-map markers (after we've uncovered the fog of war) will differentiate between settlement, village, town, etc..
Cartography generating maps that could be pulled up by the M key is quite tricky. That's a character skill - which means there have to be various forms of failure. Even if the devs are able to design a workable mechanic for turning character exploration into an accurate Map translation of the current state of the region.
What we had at PAX was a mini-map. Non-functional in the PvE demo, but reasonably functional in the PvP demo.
Getting properly lost generally has nothing to do with the size of the area. People can get properly lost in a maze. My best friend used to say, "I am not lost. I know where I am and I know where my destination is - I just don't know the path/roads to get there from here." Regardless of size, people still need to be able to navigate around terrain obstacles, etc. The world doesn't have to be large for me to want to look at a map to recall where I need to go to get past that river or how far I need to go reach the bridge that connects two cliffs.
There will be online maps for Verra that display the terrain.
I have always liked the idea of a cartographer skill and have had discussions about in several games over the years. But it has never become reality and likely for good reason.
My immediate thought is as soon as someone creates a map or buys one from another player: () -> screenshot + () -> upload to your favorite wiki or website.
Suddenly the time spent developing a cartographer class/skill is wasted as well as it becomes a meaningless in game skill that likely won't produce much of a return to the player specializing in it. Not to mention players create game maps outside of the game all of the time already anyways.
This is the same reason I don't see them doing much to change the world map layout. Think back to EQ which had no world map function. EQMaps popped up right away. I used that website during nearly every EQ gaming session. So nowadays it makes sense to just put a world map in game.
Just because someone post a map on a website does not mean we have to use it... I don't use those resource/wiki pages, if I don't have time to play and find what I want I do something else until I can come back with a good amount of time. I'm a casual player so I find task I can do in the time I have.
I know others use these websites from rarely to frequently, and I think that is okay (I am not against them). I think the thought "they shouldn't do it because some will put it on a wiki" is sad.
Just because someone post a map on a website does not mean we have to use it... I don't use those resource/wiki pages, if I don't have time to play and find what I want I do something else until I can come back with a good amount of time. I'm a casual player so I find task I can do in the time I have.
I know others use these websites from rarely to frequently, and I think that is okay (I am not against them). I think the thought "they shouldn't do it because some will put it on a wiki" is sad.
I am the same, I never use wiki's as I love finding out about things in game instead, either by self-discovery or talking with other players. As far as my opinion on others using the wiki's... I just imagine that somewhere in the world is a vast library called 'Wiki' and that the world is filled with people who loves to visit the library to read. Which other players have submitted their information to before it is added into the library's books.
Just because someone post a map on a website does not mean we have to use it... I don't use those resource/wiki pages, if I don't have time to play and find what I want I do something else until I can come back with a good amount of time. I'm a casual player so I find task I can do in the time I have.
I know others use these websites from rarely to frequently, and I think that is okay (I am not against them). I think the thought "they shouldn't do it because some will put it on a wiki" is sad.
I am pointing out why it would be a waste of development time and resources to put in a cartography skill at this point, not why you should be using a wiki. If they can create something down the road that does not require a lot of time or resources that's great. But I don't ever see if being a viable part of a larger economy. And everyone should feel free to create their own maps. Some of the best game maps I have seen over the years have been player made.
Equally for people not wanting a world map, just because one is put into the game doesn't mean you have to use it.
People should realize (for themselves) that if they use "shortcuts" they lose on the content, they loose on the atmosphere and game enjoyment, at least imho.
If you want to enjoy the game to the fullest then do not use wiki and web maps, if you do it's your own choice and you have no right to complain.
I do understand those people that, for example, only care for arena, and then just skip half quests, just farm max level and start arena fights. But those people didn't wish the rest of the content in the first place, so also no problem.
For me the existence of the info on the web isn't a problem at all. I will play in the way I can enjoy, and thus will not use "shortcuts". Whoever wishes, can.
I only tend to "goggle something up" if some quest has some "ridiculous" assignment that I can't figure out for the life of me, and no one in guild can give me a hint. Then I google this particular issue up. But that's about it. The rest I discover while playing.
How to go about enjoying a game to the fullest is subjective. Even if the devs did put in a Cartography skill for crafters, I wouldn't be paying crafters money for maps. I would be googling a basic map and relying on twitch and Twitter for references before paying a player for a crafted map.
Even if the devs did put in a Cartography skill for crafters, I wouldn't be paying crafters money for maps.
And that's your own personal choice.
It does not mean that IS shouldn't implement cartography, or that cartography wouldn't be good skill and beneficial for the game play of other community members.
So Cartography as a viable income for a player is hindered. Some, although possibly quite few, will be willing to pay in game currency so their characters can have a map crafted by another player. Others, possibly a majority, will choose to use a wiki map rather than part with imaginary currency.
I can see the merits of both sides, but I would agree that as a source of income for a player Cartography is probably not the safest bet.
If I designed a character that was focused on exploration, and there was a Cartography skill, my character would likely have the skill even if there wasn't a huge market.
Even if the devs did put in a Cartography skill for crafters, I wouldn't be paying crafters money for maps.
And that's your own personal choice.
It does not mean that IS shouldn't implement cartography, or that cartography wouldn't be good skill and beneficial for the game play of other community members.
I don't think I said it meant that IS shouldn't. If IS wants to make a Cartography profession, great! The devs will decide whether they want to or not. I'm just not convinced Cartographers would be making much money selling maps. Seems highly unlikely that they would.
So Cartography as a viable income for a player is hindered. Some, although possibly quite few, will be willing to pay in game currency so their characters can have a map crafted by another player. Others, possibly a majority, will choose to use a wiki map rather than part with imaginary currency.
I can see the merits of both sides, but I would agree that as a source of income for a player Cartography is probably not the safest bet.
If I designed a character that was focused on exploration, and there was a Cartography skill, my character would likely have the skill even if there wasn't a huge market.
Unless the world is ever changing. Though I fear, the world being separated by nodes. Each node has 6 stages, only real differences, as far as I can tell is where buildings are placed within these cities. But I feel everytime you reach 6, the same dragon will spawn.
Comments
so big
As a hobby I collect maps. The coolest one I have is a 16th century map of the world. Europe is pretty detailed, as is Asia, but North and South America are really jacked up and misshapen.
I love to look at the lines changing over time, such as my 1880's map and then my 1930's map, to see a huge part of the middle East is the Ottoman Empire. But then it's broken up into Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria in the 1930s.
Kind of like how, if a large metropolis was to fall, and the nodes all split off. Very relevant to this game in my opinion.
Maps change all the time. It's what keeps the map makers in business.
Well, I try to anyway... I always end up drinking them and then there I go collecting them from scratch again...
It's a life long hobby as I never get to collect them all, but as they say... the journey is what matters.
The boys down at the pub will be glad to hear this.
They should give it a shot.
That would mean your map is only as up to date as the last time you visited any particular area. Over time things change; forests fall, animals migrate, resources get depleted, etc. So just because you gathered that flower last week doesn't mean it will be there for you today.
I would then hope you could sell your understanding of the world last you saw to others. This would encourage your to continually explore the world and, for those who don't like extensive exploring but want to know, to be able to purchase your knowledge of places.
I work for a company that makes mapping and navigation apps, and people love to drop points, and love a variety of icons, to note down where things of importance to them have happened. This provides them with the feeling that they are making their own maps and creating their own stories. In our context this is a huge dollop of player agency.
I would also like if we could do our own overlays, ala heat maps. Many mods in other games do this, but allowing the player to draw their own, directly onto their map and be able to turn layers on and off would be an amazing system that would provide a huge benefit to those of us that like to keep track of things.
My personal wish for the world map is to be fairly sparse in information. Name the nodes and major geographical features, maybe a few places of renown (that everyone knows from basic lore) but apart from that leave the map empty for players to add to.
I prefer the "You will have to remember where things are" kind of situation tho :P
Throughout most of it, most people didn't have access to maps.
Yet thousands of people every year managed to find their way across countries and continents every year on pilgrimages, wars, trading etc.
How did they do it then?
Every body knew the important basics, ie London is in England, Paris is in France, Azerbaijan is somewhere near Russia on the continent.
So you'd get directions from your little village on which road would lead to Paris, then at the next village you'd do the same, until you got to Paris, where the knowledge would change, they might have more information on where to go next, or what to look out for etc.
Crusaders (i think) had mugs they took with them to drink from on their journey, with a list of the town's they'd need to stop at to find their destination. All you need is to find the next nearest town. and so on.
To Implement this in the game world, you wouldn't need maps, just compasses and npcs in towns offering basic directions etc.
That way you COULD cope with a cartography skill even if the maps made became out of date.
However, something like roadsigns I think would be amazing. I even use them today. If I have to go to city or village Y, I go, oh, right that's near X, and will drive in that direction. I'll only get directions (gps) once I am in the actual village I want to be at.
A compass being a tool is something I would love.
But that's probably more of a SP game feature
We won't know where nodes are until settlements pop up.
I wonder if the mini-map markers (after we've uncovered the fog of war) will differentiate between settlement, village, town, etc..
Cartography generating maps that could be pulled up by the M key is quite tricky.
That's a character skill - which means there have to be various forms of failure.
Even if the devs are able to design a workable mechanic for turning character exploration into an accurate Map translation of the current state of the region.
What we had at PAX was a mini-map.
Non-functional in the PvE demo, but reasonably functional in the PvP demo.
Getting properly lost generally has nothing to do with the size of the area.
People can get properly lost in a maze.
My best friend used to say, "I am not lost. I know where I am and I know where my destination is - I just don't know the path/roads to get there from here."
Regardless of size, people still need to be able to navigate around terrain obstacles, etc. The world doesn't have to be large for me to want to look at a map to recall where I need to go to get past that river or how far I need to go reach the bridge that connects two cliffs.
There will be online maps for Verra that display the terrain.
My immediate thought is as soon as someone creates a map or buys one from another player: () -> screenshot + () -> upload to your favorite wiki or website.
Suddenly the time spent developing a cartographer class/skill is wasted as well as it becomes a meaningless in game skill that likely won't produce much of a return to the player specializing in it. Not to mention players create game maps outside of the game all of the time already anyways.
This is the same reason I don't see them doing much to change the world map layout. Think back to EQ which had no world map function. EQMaps popped up right away. I used that website during nearly every EQ gaming session. So nowadays it makes sense to just put a world map in game.
Quote For Truth
I don't use those resource/wiki pages, if I don't have time to play and find what I want I do something else until I can come back with a good amount of time. I'm a casual player so I find task I can do in the time I have.
I know others use these websites from rarely to frequently, and I think that is okay (I am not against them). I think the thought "they shouldn't do it because some will put it on a wiki" is sad.
As far as my opinion on others using the wiki's...
I just imagine that somewhere in the world is a vast library called 'Wiki' and that the world is filled with people who loves to visit the library to read. Which other players have submitted their information to before it is added into the library's books.
Equally for people not wanting a world map, just because one is put into the game doesn't mean you have to use it.
If you want to enjoy the game to the fullest then do not use wiki and web maps, if you do it's your own choice and you have no right to complain.
I do understand those people that, for example, only care for arena, and then just skip half quests, just farm max level and start arena fights. But those people didn't wish the rest of the content in the first place, so also no problem.
For me the existence of the info on the web isn't a problem at all. I will play in the way I can enjoy, and thus will not use "shortcuts". Whoever wishes, can.
I only tend to "goggle something up" if some quest has some "ridiculous" assignment that I can't figure out for the life of me, and no one in guild can give me a hint. Then I google this particular issue up. But that's about it. The rest I discover while playing.
Even if the devs did put in a Cartography skill for crafters, I wouldn't be paying crafters money for maps. I would be googling a basic map and relying on twitch and Twitter for references before paying a player for a crafted map.
It does not mean that IS shouldn't implement cartography, or that cartography wouldn't be good skill and beneficial for the game play of other community members.
I can see the merits of both sides, but I would agree that as a source of income for a player Cartography is probably not the safest bet.
If I designed a character that was focused on exploration, and there was a Cartography skill, my character would likely have the skill even if there wasn't a huge market.
If IS wants to make a Cartography profession, great!
The devs will decide whether they want to or not.
I'm just not convinced Cartographers would be making much money selling maps.
Seems highly unlikely that they would.