I am worried about a few potential let downs No.1 Combat

 First a bit of background, if you think this is unimportant skip to next paragraph. I am a normie when it comes to MMO's, the only high level character I have is on NeverWinter, I play a little ESO and Black Desert Online. So not much experience in the MMO sphere. Ashes Of Creation seems to offer what I've been longing for but as it slowly comes together I start to fear that it (AOC) isn't "making MMO's great again" but just following the old formula with a different skin. For various reasons I can't really get into ESO and Black Desert Online as I was hoping to do when I got them. After a little thought I have came to a few conclusions about why that is. Firstly combat.

 There are many components to combat that need to work together. Pace, character ability, enemy ability, environment and mechanics are a few basics. If this game is going to quite grindy, as implied by the Dev team, then the combat MUST feel fresh, fun and functional (F*cking 'F's) in order for people to have fun who aren't big MMO fans who can get satisfaction from sitting in one place with 20+ skills on a quick bar, spamming, crowd-controlling tryna catch me last hitting.
  So far I see copied combat systems from the MMO archetype, but with quick times.  From PAX and so forth the final product looks like it'll be the MMO version of the original witcher game.  To be a little more serious, I know it would be really hard to implement something like a Souls/Born-esque combat to an MMO, not like people want that anyhow, and making archery take extra amounts of skill by having the arrows not follow their target will bring up balancing issues. Never the less I fear that the combat will feel distanced, like in NeverWinter where the camera is between 5-10 meters away from the character, doing large AOE swings with your sword. I like my combat to feel like I am part of it, in with my character. In my opinion ESO did the scale a little better. I was able to see how my hits connected with the enemy and react to the enemy hitting me. ESO was still very 'Tank and spank' which brings me out of the combat quickly.

 Maybe it is me, maybe I just don't get the greatness of standing in front of a boss waiting for cooldowns to be over so I can use my OP laser beam again. Or are my fear share by you people? I want to love this game, with all it's glory it boasted for itself, however if the combat is a bore I can't play this. And combat will be a bore, if there are no innovations to it, well, in my honest opinion.

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Comments

  • I've read through your post, and I agree with your issues with the combat. One thing you forgot to mention is that the game is using the tab targeting combat system which I think is a bit old and is hardly making MMO's great again. But we can't outright condemn the game on pre-alpha footage. I'm putting my faith in the Developers for now, and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns.
  • Vortigern said:
    I've read through your post, and I agree with your issues with the combat. One thing you forgot to mention is that the game is using the tab targeting combat system which I think is a bit old and is hardly making MMO's great again. But we can't outright condemn the game on pre-alpha footage. I'm putting my faith in the Developers for now, and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns.
    Ashes uses a hybrid combat system, not just tab targeting.
  • Elder said:
    Vortigern said:
    I've read through your post, and I agree with your issues with the combat. One thing you forgot to mention is that the game is using the tab targeting combat system which I think is a bit old and is hardly making MMO's great again. But we can't outright condemn the game on pre-alpha footage. I'm putting my faith in the Developers for now, and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns.
    Ashes uses a hybrid combat system, not just tab targeting.
    Thanks for correcting my statement, they're using a rehashed tab targeting system that they're calling a "hybrid". My mistake.
  • They have already featured multiple non tabbed combat abilities during various streams and pax videos. Intrepid has also stated it will be completely viable to build only action abilities. 
  • For those that love tab targetting, you can choose to build out tab targetted abilities. For those that love action, you can choose to build out action abilities. How will this work? They have already stated that while you will have access to many, many abilities, how you build them out will have great variation on how powerful those particular abilities are. So your decision whether to make your CC level 1 or level 3 will impact how many remaining points you have to put into other abilities, just like the crafting system. Until they flesh it out more, their statements are all we have to go on.

    One thing they have been ultimately clear on is that their vision of how combat and other mechanics are going to be implemented will NOT change or even be tweaked until they get actual testers in the game and can look at the data. It isn't going to be that Elder likes this better, but Vortigern says Elders style is old, so lets toss it out and start again. It is going to be them looking at numbers data, seeing who is doing what, and adjusting off of that.
  • Vortigern said:
    I've read through your post, and I agree with your issues with the combat. One thing you forgot to mention is that the game is using the tab targeting combat system which I think is a bit old and is hardly making MMO's great again. But we can't outright condemn the game on pre-alpha footage. I'm putting my faith in the Developers for now, and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns.
    Elder said:
    They have already featured multiple non tabbed combat abilities during various streams and pax videos. Intrepid has also stated it will be completely viable to build only action abilities. 
    Fair enough. Do we know how archery will be handled? I hope that isn't Tab Targeted.
     
    When Vortigern says "[...], and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns" Do you mean you think the combat will be fun or that there are aspects of the MMO genre you think more so needs maintenance? 

     Elder: Would that not give tabbed combat abilities a sort of advantage?

     Another thing about combat is that it seems like everyone regardless of level will be adventuring in the same area, and there is open world pvp, what will stop noob stomping? I don't mind having to avoid specific mobs in order to not die as a low level but you can't avoid players hunting you down.
      I do like the one play area idea, helps with making friends, but balancing while making leveling feel like progression could go in two ways; really good or really bad.
  • For those that love tab targetting, you can choose to build out tab targetted abilities. For those that love action, you can choose to build out action abilities. How will this work? They have already stated that while you will have access to many, many abilities, how you build them out will have great variation on how powerful those particular abilities are. So your decision whether to make your CC level 1 or level 3 will impact how many remaining points you have to put into other abilities, just like the crafting system. Until they flesh it out more, their statements are all we have to go on.

    One thing they have been ultimately clear on is that their vision of how combat and other mechanics are going to be implemented will NOT change or even be tweaked until they get actual testers in the game and can look at the data. It isn't going to be that Elder likes this better, but Vortigern says Elders style is old, so lets toss it out and start again. It is going to be them looking at numbers data, seeing who is doing what, and adjusting off of that.
    That was quite helpful. What if the testers decide that its all shit,
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2017
    "That was quite helpful. What if the testers decide that its all shit,"

    Then man up and GTFO. If the combat is a gamebreaker for you after testing and you don't like this system or that, vote economically. If no one plays the game, then it will close. They have absolutely no obligation to make the game YOU want, if you disagree with their vision, no one is forcing you to play. There will be plenty of people who log on and love it, plenty who log on and go "meh", and plenty who absolutely hate it. Can't please everyone, and they have no intention on trying I assume.

    There is no box cost, there is no added cost required beyond the subscription. The game will be streamed extensively from Alpha 1 onwards. Anyone worried about their $15 that badly at launch would have had ample chance to look at combat and systems before buying a one month sub.
  • "That was quite helpful. What if the testers decide that its all shit,"

    Then man up and GTFO. If the combat is a gamebreaker for you after testing and you don't like this system or that, vote economically. If no one plays the game, then it will close. They have absolutely no obligation to make the game YOU want, if you disagree with their vision, no one is forcing you to play. There will be plenty of people who log on and love it, plenty who log on and go "meh", and plenty who absolutely hate it. Can't please everyone, and they have no intention on trying I assume.

    There is no box cost, there is no added cost required beyond the subscription. The game will be streamed extensively from Alpha 1 onwards. Anyone worried about their $15 that badly at launch would have had ample chance to look at combat and systems before buying a one month sub.
    Fair enough. ( I would like to clarify that the "What if the testers decide that its all shit" was meant to be facetious) I am getting hyped about AOC however combat can break the game for me. This post wasn't intended to complain needlessly just as any game I am looking forward to I want to clarify my fears and see if those fears are anything to be concerned about.

    I do support the subscription model, have dealt with those before and they have their ups and downs.
  • Sorry if it came off a bit harsh. Irony and sarcasm are hard to express without facial and vocal cues, so many forum situations can lead to misunderstandings. The developers have been very forthcoming and transparent about the development process and the stages that it is in. Like any online entity as the game becomes more popular we start to attract trolls like flies to shit. If you look at yesterdays livestream it wasn't 10 minutes before we had our first one typing in "your combat needs a complete overhaul!" which then of course branched off into "shut up!" "No, you shut up." The combat system over the next year and half will undergo a whole lot of polish, tweaks, and changes. It was just a year ago that the game even started its push to gain a community. Beyond some shiny promo videos (which UE4 is built to make easy) in the beginning many who supported were just here from statements that were made about their vision. They have not gone back on anything they have said (with the exception of a couple regrettable word-smithing incidents) since the start. That they have managed to ramp up from demo videos to actual closed network gameplay for PAX and now to actual online population play next month in that time period is impressive to say the least. Many games dies an early stillbirth in development at this point, but Ashes seems to be going strong. We will have to wait and see what happens over time.
  • Speech kill 100.
  • Block skill 100.

  • Restoration 100.
  • Whenever there are discussions on the content in Ashes, the main feeling behind it is a lack a faith in the team, but this is understandable. It's hard to imagine any company thinking of its players first instead of the money they stand to make.
     (EA) =_=||

    Anyway, I understand your concerns @Hunter1Grant, I have the same thoughts. Bottom line is, combat is the most important aspect of an MMO... thats just a fact. If the combat sucked, EVEN though I don't plan to PVP, I'd feel let down because I want Ashes to wholly succeed, not just in the environment design or the node mechanics, everything.

    The combat for this A0 is not finished and will not represent the finished product. So... the hope is that there will be players who study the movement, the spammability, the damage, the speed, you know... the feel of the combat, and will give I.S VERY constructive critisim on any flaws. I'd like for them to know now, while combat is still being shaped, so that they can change course if need be.


  • @Chudyie I wrote an entire response but then realized I was making the same points you did. So here is a new one.

    Combat must be fun, if done by using the same old, same old then so be it, I'll try a month and then make up my mind. However as this claims to be the renaissance of MMO's some greater changes would be appreciated. 
  • I agree with what @Chudyie said in that it's faith in the team. I'm excited to see the deployment of skill based vs targeted abilities.

    Oddly enough I just posted about what I feel creates that "witcher" feel of game. For me, a game is 95% based on gameplay. Not all players are, but, this one is. I definitely agree that in its current state it is very lack luster, being nearly identical to any other western mmorpg.

    Here is what I had to say in regards to what I feel dictates that direction.
    https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/37476/movement-speed-in-combat#latest

    I would love to see a more witcher/dark souls/Dragons Dogma Dark Arisen feel. Those are too slow and not varied enough, but, the importance and significance of action is what the comparison I'm creating.

    So far I have faith, I think the next iterations will be telling.
  • Honestly, can't judge how the game is in it's current state. Yes, tab targeting is not very revolutionary. However, they are creating a hybrid system. It's tab targeting, with action combat elements mixed in. It's just now Alpha 0, let community feedback and performance data assist the developers in creating new iterations of the game. The combat will only get better, and it's already decent for a tab targeting system. Give it time, we still have more than a year ahead of us of pure development time.
  • Michael said:
    Honestly, can't judge how the game is in it's current state. Yes, tab targeting is not very revolutionary. However, they are creating a hybrid system. It's tab targeting, with action combat elements mixed in. It's just now Alpha 0, let community feedback and performance data assist the developers in creating new iterations of the game. The combat will only get better, and it's already decent for a tab targeting system. Give it time, we still have more than a year ahead of us of pure development time.
    They keep saying it's a hybrid system (without showing anything "hybrid") and even then, it wont be revolutionary at all. It's a mix of old and new combat mechanics, hardly mind blowing or "revolutionary". And we can judge the game in its current state because it tells us the direction they're going. Now, I'm personally not blown away by the gameplay because it is Alpha 0 but I see slight promise.
  • Hunter1Grant said:   " ... There are many components to combat that need to work together. Pace, character ability, enemy ability, environment and mechanics are a few basics ...
    I anticipated ( and hoped ) that Intrepid will add other Attributes of Combat that'll make it better than other MMOs. I mentioned my suggestion in another thread in fact

  • what do you think of that ? :0
  • I say give it a year. Lets see what we think of combat after that. Not saying we shouldn't provide feedback or try and help mold the design of the combat system, but rather hold out placing final judgment on what little we've seen.
  • I get your concerns and I agree with you, I think combat makes or breaks the game to a huge degree, if it's fun you might even look over some other lack luster things, but if it's subjectively bad for you then it's rare that one might stick it through just to see content and stuff.
    The thing is we have yet to see the first iteration of a full combat scenario. Right now we have only seen a very bare bone, "a few skills that do damage"
    We have yet to see, the augmentations, vertical progression, the strategical component they have talked about time and time again, that position matters for skills, we have yet to see cc interconnection, yet to see all classes and how they fill the voids of the others. (leaning on the comments from IS that every class brings something unique and important to the table, not just dps in a different sparkly fashion). Yet to see a more polished and reflective state of animations.(as you said esthetics matter, can't have dark souls combat while you jump and fly around with a hyperturbo booster on your back catapulting you everywhere) and so on.
    Concerns are valid, but at this point, we simply can't see their vision of the combat let alone judge it.
  • Vortigern said:
    Michael said:
    Honestly, can't judge how the game is in it's current state. Yes, tab targeting is not very revolutionary. However, they are creating a hybrid system. It's tab targeting, with action combat elements mixed in. It's just now Alpha 0, let community feedback and performance data assist the developers in creating new iterations of the game. The combat will only get better, and it's already decent for a tab targeting system. Give it time, we still have more than a year ahead of us of pure development time.
    They keep saying it's a hybrid system (without showing anything "hybrid") and even then, it wont be revolutionary at all. It's a mix of old and new combat mechanics, hardly mind blowing or "revolutionary". And we can judge the game in its current state because it tells us the direction they're going. Now, I'm personally not blown away by the gameplay because it is Alpha 0 but I see slight promise.
    I slightly agree and disagree with you :) I do like a lot of your posts, as yo always brig up good points. whether we are on the same side or opposite sides of the argument.

     It is still in early development some of it may be not that they have not alreadt developed a good amount of it already but rather this early in the development they do not want to disclose too much especially if it is a unique and great Idea, not saying this is the reason but I can say if I was a game developer at this stage I would not want my best secrets to get out too fast or someone else could jump on it first 

    It really is way to early to say and we have no clue what aces they may or may not have up their sleeves.

    People have to remember at times what sounds good on paper ends up not working out in reality but the same also holds true there are times where things do not sound that great on paper but in reality it works out much better than one could have hopped.

    Only time will tell and with hands on testing and refining.

    Pre-Alpha is way to soon to give a verdict either way.


  • Mouse and keyboard. Sorry but AoC has the mouse and keyboard to work with and as such you are going to see some variation of some previously used combat system being used. This complaint is like reading someone complain about cars having the same "wheels on the ground" mechanic they have had for over a century. Until the tech comes out to where you actually put on some gear and swing your arms around like a monkey you can expect the same combat systems being used....mouse and keyboard.
  • I just worry that the whole "focus" system with the weapon attacks will be either too easy, too difficult to realistically do in combat consistently, or just not worth the effort.  On top of that, I'm worried that combat's pace will be extremely sluggish in general.  Good MMO combat mixes a certain level of player skill with opponents who act and react in slightly unpredictable ways.  Unpredictability is the thing that brings people back to MMOs.  I would love it if random mobs had special abilities, buffs, etc that make them threatening in a unique way that isn't so easy to predict.

    Having your life be in danger at any moment is exciting, engaging, and slightly stressful.  Doing a mundane quest shouldn't be some "Pick 10 flowers because you want that 500 experience points" situation.  Look at Runescape 3 (or even Old school) and you'll see that a large majority of the quests have difficult puzzles or riddles hidden within the quest for you to figure out yourself.  Eventually people will have guides for them, but figuring it out yourself is half the fun.  Even the boring quests are engaging because (this may be unique to Runescape) there's some humorous dialogue that just fits. Other MMOs have very strong enemy mechanics that make combat the prime focus of the game, making it important to learn and adapt to enemy attack patterns or combos mid-fight.

    Personally, I wish this whole quick-time event style weapon attacks got a nice rework in some way, but I don't exactly have an answer that wouldn't completely change the type of game this is (My idea was to use similar weapon attack system to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, with multiple directions and you'd have to use your own reactions to block and dodge enemy attacks)
  • This is only my own 2 cents.

    When I look at a MMO, the combat will never be as dynamic as a single player or combat focused game. 

    I feel the design considerations in MMO's are massive and I don't see how a designer  can avoid some sort of compromise.  If you don't like ESO, BDO , WOW etc then maybe MMO games are just not your flavour.
    So for me a MMO is always about the wholistic  experience and what other systems/challenges are in place. Combat is for sure  a very important part but also the challenges of the quests, puzzles, depth of crafting , economy and excellent lore can for me allow the combat be a bit same same and I would still love the MMO.

    The main attraction for me in AOC is clearly the Node system , the classes system, the picking of a religion for your character and being a member of a Town/City and helping it grow or just survive.

    But I hear you,   the combat needs to feel fluid, it needs to feel tactical, the different classes should feel different and it shouldn't be boring and repetitive.
    One downside of utter transparency of development is we see all the warts and all as the game evolves......peace out my 2 cents became 3 cents sorry 

  • Not even sure if they'll read this, but why bother trying to force a hybrid system to work when you can easily give players the choice between the tried and true systems they like? This early in there's no reason they can't try making both tab targeting and an action style control scheme work for all classes. There's no point in trying to reinvent the wheel when their stated goal is to revitalize the genre. Give people what they want, and lay the foundation for both systems early so you're not so committed to something that people are already saying is a major concern.

    The devs should take a step back from this thought that everyone wants the same thing from the genre, or that what their current vision is will be outright accepted by players because everything else the game has to offer seems great. Combat is a core element of rpgs in general, if your combat isn't great, you're just going to have people who try the game out for a few weeks or months then drop it outright.

    Proposed changes:
    Lay the groundwork for both common control types.

    Tab Targeting
    For whatever reason, this type seems to be wildly unpopular now, and that's probably because only a handful of games have done it in a way that feels good to use. Proposed features would be as follows:

    • Have more than 10 skills on a hotbar and allow for multiple, keybound hotbars. This can easily be done in an action type control scheme as well, yet I haven't seen it done for whatever reason. Details of how later in the A-type control section.
    • Have a variety of skills for different situations, not a soft locked-in rotation to be repeated ad nauseam. This point is probably what kills tab targeting for people. Nobody likes mashing the same skills while standing still and/or having no animation difference. Reactive skills, branching chains, repeat skills, cc, movement, cc counters, etc should be available to all or most classes, yet the builds we've seen so far don't have enough space on the hotbar to have both enough attacks to not be repetitive and utility skills to give combat depth, especially for PvP. Why bother playing a game with one-dimensional combat where the players just spams attacks at another entity just spamming attacks?
    • Avoid GCD. GCD games almost invariably have forced rotations, because why wouldn't you pick your best, non-CD skills over all others if they're always ready? Short CDs assigned to each skill prevent forced rotations. Say you have a powerful sequence of skills, but those skills take 6 seconds to go through, but have a 12-24sec CD. That gives time for the player to use other skill combinations and prevents the stagnation of just hitting 1,2,3,4 on GCD skills.
    Action Type Controls (BDO, Tera, etc.)
    Seems to be the most popular control choice now, but it has clear shortcomings, as does tabbing, but also has never been used to potential. Proposed changes would be as follows:

    • Follow BDO's lead, but go beyond so as to allow as much skills to be actively available to the player as you could get with an expanded tab-targeting layout with multiple hotbars. BDO has the most fleshed-out a-type control of any mmo I've played, but there are glaring holes in it's configuration. The game uses several different mouse button and key combinations for each class, and allows for around 20-30+ skills actively available to the player to use at any given time. However, of those 20-30+ skills, very few skills are bound to an action + modifier key like shift, ctrl, or alt. You could easily have upwards of 60+ actions available in an a-type control scheme, but nobody's ever done it.

    • As with the previous type, avoid mechanics like GCD and lack of skill flexibility that almost force players into rotation ruts.

    • Radial wheels. While not everybody likes them, their a good way to bind skills and items to be quickly available to the player
    Common Points Between Both Systems
    The core of combat can use additional features and the removal of things too experimental to work.

    • Get rid of the QTEs. I'm sure the arguments have already been made ad nauseam. The mechanic is too distracting from both the world and battle, reasonable concern with input lag, potential for 3rd party manipulation, the player not being able to reliably hit them because of combat stressors or things already listed, etc. It's a cool idea on paper, but it's not very practical in a game like this.

    • Chain skills. I've only seen one skill do chain skills i.e. hit button #1 and a new skill appears in slot #1 after the first skill is used. They're a good way to break up rotation ruts and hotbar clutter because they act as soft rotations. Let's say you have a skill "A," and it has a branching chain between A,B,C and A,D,E or A,B,D, etc. You can have those skills within different branches have different effects, damage, CD, etc. and can balance the chains in a way that players don't feel obligated to run them through all the way 100% of the time. Let's say skill D on an A,D,E chain applies a debuff that lowers fire resistance, but E isn't a big fire damage skill and you're in a pinch and need to drop your fire nuke asap. The player could use A,D, then fire nuke.

    • Auxiliary skills. There hasn't been enough for us to really study what's actually in the game yet, but as I mentioned before, there doesn't seem to be enough room on hotbar for auxiliary skills and main attack skills. Mobility, CC (which I have no doubt is already in the game), counter CC, adequate amounts of buffs/debuffs, and other skills add depth to combat. If you want combat to be a factor in the world and want players to not quit after a relatively short time, you need to make combat engaging, and depth is probably the best way to do that.

    • Make both control types available to players based on their preference. The hybrid system so far looks weak, and is too poor of an example of a tab system to entertain players like myself with tab system preference, and is likewise too poor of an a-type system for a-type players. You don't need to shape skills around one control type or another, a-type inputs can be made to have direct equivalents in a tab-type system and vice-versa. Forcing some skills to be locked to a certain control type is guaranteed to bring up gripes from players who dislike that type, locking classes into favoring one control scheme over the other will also cause gripes and possibly unbalanced combat. The hybrid system as we've seen is an unnecessary compromise at this point. The devs have plenty of time to create mirrored systems to cater to the players who prefer one system or the other, not a weaker hybrid of both.

    There's no reason to have a combat system with so little depth as what they've shown to us so far. Their initial reveal of classes running around with 4 or 5 skills on a 9 slot bar earlier last year was laughable, and the 1-10 + G and R skillbar they have now is almost just as silly. Game with that poor of a combat system only last if they have brand names behind them. If combat is going to play any part of shaping the world of AoC, it needs to be drastically better, and I believe the points I've brought up are at least a good jumping-off point for changes to be made to accommodate all types of players and have a combat system with depth.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited March 2018
    So, does anyone remember the Gates of Discord release in Everquest? I may be viewing it with slightly pink tinted glasses given how long ago it was, but Tab Targeting there wasn't boring. It made people cry and drink, it broke guilds, friends were lost to the ether of the internet. All for a variety of reasons from purposeful to bad judgement on SOE's part. But it certainly wasn't boring. 

    Tab Targeting can be just as enjoyable as Action based if the game AROUND the system is designed to enhance it. If the encounters are designed to test your knowledge and applicability of your skills, your ability to problem solve, think quickly, and react, not just your groups DPS/HPS/WhateverPS. I think the biggest issue with the system is that the games around them have become so 'streamlined' in order to maximize their playerbase that the level of intricacy that used to be present in combat that made it fun just isn't there anymore. Having 50 skills doesn't matter if the only thing you have to do is maximize your damage or healing, you'll just settle into using the same 5 skills regardless of the combat being Tab or Action based. 

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen that dynamic combat is what Intrepid is going for, right? Does the way you go about it really make that big of a difference? Different ways to solve the same fight, constantly evolving situations, *gasp* real honest to god crowd control?!?! My Enchanter friends are drooling already. Maybe its just me, but I think the type of combat system that is implemented has far less bearing on the quality and enjoyment of combat than everything that goes into it. 

    TL:DR/Why is the old man still talking- Give the combat a chance regardless of its styling, look more towards what they are wanting to do to make it interesting. Beating a one armed man to death with a stick is boring, beating a one armed man with a flamethrower and the knowledge to use it to death with a stick is exciting. 
  • Altyor said:

    Tab Targeting can be just as enjoyable as Action based if the game AROUND the system is designed to enhance it. If the encounters are designed to test your knowledge and applicability of your skills, your ability to problem solve, think quickly, and react, not just your groups DPS/HPS/WhateverPS. I think the biggest issue with the system is that the games around them have become so 'streamlined' in order to maximize their playerbase that the level of intricacy that used to be present in combat that made it fun just isn't there anymore. Having 50 skills doesn't matter if the only thing you have to do is maximize your damage or healing, you'll just settle into using the same 5 skills regardless of the combat being Tab or Action based. 

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen that dynamic combat is what Intrepid is going for, right? Does the way you go about it really make that big of a difference?

    In regards to your first paragraph, what's the mechanical difference between tab-targeting hotbar skills and action type keybinds/motions/whatever? Nothing really, you still have the player doing a mouse and/or keyboard input, the only difference between the two systems is how single enemies are targeted, whether it's manual like tab targeting, or contextual like a-type. The differences are minimal, and not big enough to bar games from doing both. For example: you can easily make an a-type scheme mirrored to a tab scheme by having a list of skill slots somewhat like a fighting game's move list for players to customize what skills go to which bindings and/or motions, while just having both a manual targeting for tab players and contextual for a-type. Not hard. Not everyone has to play the way you want, especially if the ability to give the option is so easy.

    The end of the first quoted paragraph makes me think you just didn't read what I wrote, because I mentioned having individual CDs on all skill so not just the most powerful are used. I also mentioned another mechanic to avoid limited skill rotation when I talked about skill chains.

    So yes, it absolutely makes a difference. Have you not seen their current combat system? Have you not seen the PAX demo where they had attacks that were basically active reload from Gears of War? The skills and combat system are tied together, and what they've presented so far is inadequate. Saying "oh, it's still pre-alpha, lets have blind faith in the devs and shoot down anyone who tries to give constructive criticism" is asinine and unhelpful. I put forth things that would attract and maintain more people and you responded with, "yea, but i don't like people having choice, even if the effort on the devs' side would be relatively small."

    I don't think people realize the debate is between two input methods that are so functionally similar that they could be done side-by-side. There's no reason it should be so hard to make an action bound to a player's '1' key have the same function as the same skill bound to another's LMB. The only issue is hard lock-on tab vs context lock-on.
  • I mean, it's pre-alpha/alpha now, so now's the time to be making or trying out changes to core systems. Saying "nah, it's fine" isn't constructive, especially when they're trying to make this game special.
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