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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
I am worried about a few potential let downs No.1 Combat
First a bit of background, if you think this is unimportant skip to next paragraph. I am a normie when it comes to MMO's, the only high level character I have is on NeverWinter, I play a little ESO and Black Desert Online. So not much experience in the MMO sphere. Ashes Of Creation seems to offer what I've been longing for but as it slowly comes together I start to fear that it (AOC) isn't "making MMO's great again" but just following the old formula with a different skin. For various reasons I can't really get into ESO and Black Desert Online as I was hoping to do when I got them. After a little thought I have came to a few conclusions about why that is. Firstly combat.
There are many components to combat that need to work together. Pace, character ability, enemy ability, environment and mechanics are a few basics. If this game is going to quite grindy, as implied by the Dev team, then the combat MUST feel fresh, fun and functional (F*cking 'F's) in order for people to have fun who aren't big MMO fans who can get satisfaction from sitting in one place with 20+ skills on a quick bar, spamming, crowd-controlling tryna catch me last hitting.
So far I see copied combat systems from the MMO archetype, but with quick times. From PAX and so forth the final product looks like it'll be the MMO version of the original witcher game. To be a little more serious, I know it would be really hard to implement something like a Souls/Born-esque combat to an MMO, not like people want that anyhow, and making archery take extra amounts of skill by having the arrows not follow their target will bring up balancing issues. Never the less I fear that the combat will feel distanced, like in NeverWinter where the camera is between 5-10 meters away from the character, doing large AOE swings with your sword. I like my combat to feel like I am part of it, in with my character. In my opinion ESO did the scale a little better. I was able to see how my hits connected with the enemy and react to the enemy hitting me. ESO was still very 'Tank and spank' which brings me out of the combat quickly.
Maybe it is me, maybe I just don't get the greatness of standing in front of a boss waiting for cooldowns to be over so I can use my OP laser beam again. Or are my fear share by you people? I want to love this game, with all it's glory it boasted for itself, however if the combat is a bore I can't play this. And combat will be a bore, if there are no innovations to it, well, in my honest opinion.
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One thing they have been ultimately clear on is that their vision of how combat and other mechanics are going to be implemented will NOT change or even be tweaked until they get actual testers in the game and can look at the data. It isn't going to be that Elder likes this better, but Vortigern says Elders style is old, so lets toss it out and start again. It is going to be them looking at numbers data, seeing who is doing what, and adjusting off of that.
When Vortigern says "[...], and honestly, the combat is at the bottom of my list of concerns" Do you mean you think the combat will be fun or that there are aspects of the MMO genre you think more so needs maintenance?
Elder: Would that not give tabbed combat abilities a sort of advantage?
Another thing about combat is that it seems like everyone regardless of level will be adventuring in the same area, and there is open world pvp, what will stop noob stomping? I don't mind having to avoid specific mobs in order to not die as a low level but you can't avoid players hunting you down.
I do like the one play area idea, helps with making friends, but balancing while making leveling feel like progression could go in two ways; really good or really bad.
Then man up and GTFO. If the combat is a gamebreaker for you after testing and you don't like this system or that, vote economically. If no one plays the game, then it will close. They have absolutely no obligation to make the game YOU want, if you disagree with their vision, no one is forcing you to play. There will be plenty of people who log on and love it, plenty who log on and go "meh", and plenty who absolutely hate it. Can't please everyone, and they have no intention on trying I assume.
There is no box cost, there is no added cost required beyond the subscription. The game will be streamed extensively from Alpha 1 onwards. Anyone worried about their $15 that badly at launch would have had ample chance to look at combat and systems before buying a one month sub.
I do support the subscription model, have dealt with those before and they have their ups and downs.
(EA) =_=||
Anyway, I understand your concerns @Hunter1Grant, I have the same thoughts. Bottom line is, combat is the most important aspect of an MMO... thats just a fact. If the combat sucked, EVEN though I don't plan to PVP, I'd feel let down because I want Ashes to wholly succeed, not just in the environment design or the node mechanics, everything.
The combat for this A0 is not finished and will not represent the finished product. So... the hope is that there will be players who study the movement, the spammability, the damage, the speed, you know... the feel of the combat, and will give I.S VERY constructive critisim on any flaws. I'd like for them to know now, while combat is still being shaped, so that they can change course if need be.
Combat must be fun, if done by using the same old, same old then so be it, I'll try a month and then make up my mind. However as this claims to be the renaissance of MMO's some greater changes would be appreciated.
Oddly enough I just posted about what I feel creates that "witcher" feel of game. For me, a game is 95% based on gameplay. Not all players are, but, this one is. I definitely agree that in its current state it is very lack luster, being nearly identical to any other western mmorpg.
Here is what I had to say in regards to what I feel dictates that direction.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/37476/movement-speed-in-combat#latest
I would love to see a more witcher/dark souls/Dragons Dogma Dark Arisen feel. Those are too slow and not varied enough, but, the importance and significance of action is what the comparison I'm creating.
So far I have faith, I think the next iterations will be telling.
The thing is we have yet to see the first iteration of a full combat scenario. Right now we have only seen a very bare bone, "a few skills that do damage"
We have yet to see, the augmentations, vertical progression, the strategical component they have talked about time and time again, that position matters for skills, we have yet to see cc interconnection, yet to see all classes and how they fill the voids of the others. (leaning on the comments from IS that every class brings something unique and important to the table, not just dps in a different sparkly fashion). Yet to see a more polished and reflective state of animations.(as you said esthetics matter, can't have dark souls combat while you jump and fly around with a hyperturbo booster on your back catapulting you everywhere) and so on.
Concerns are valid, but at this point, we simply can't see their vision of the combat let alone judge it.
It is still in early development some of it may be not that they have not alreadt developed a good amount of it already but rather this early in the development they do not want to disclose too much especially if it is a unique and great Idea, not saying this is the reason but I can say if I was a game developer at this stage I would not want my best secrets to get out too fast or someone else could jump on it first
It really is way to early to say and we have no clue what aces they may or may not have up their sleeves.
People have to remember at times what sounds good on paper ends up not working out in reality but the same also holds true there are times where things do not sound that great on paper but in reality it works out much better than one could have hopped.
Only time will tell and with hands on testing and refining.
Pre-Alpha is way to soon to give a verdict either way.
Having your life be in danger at any moment is exciting, engaging, and slightly stressful. Doing a mundane quest shouldn't be some "Pick 10 flowers because you want that 500 experience points" situation. Look at Runescape 3 (or even Old school) and you'll see that a large majority of the quests have difficult puzzles or riddles hidden within the quest for you to figure out yourself. Eventually people will have guides for them, but figuring it out yourself is half the fun. Even the boring quests are engaging because (this may be unique to Runescape) there's some humorous dialogue that just fits. Other MMOs have very strong enemy mechanics that make combat the prime focus of the game, making it important to learn and adapt to enemy attack patterns or combos mid-fight.
Personally, I wish this whole quick-time event style weapon attacks got a nice rework in some way, but I don't exactly have an answer that wouldn't completely change the type of game this is (My idea was to use similar weapon attack system to Kingdom Come: Deliverance, with multiple directions and you'd have to use your own reactions to block and dodge enemy attacks)
When I look at a MMO, the combat will never be as dynamic as a single player or combat focused game.
I feel the design considerations in MMO's are massive and I don't see how a designer can avoid some sort of compromise. If you don't like ESO, BDO , WOW etc then maybe MMO games are just not your flavour.
So for me a MMO is always about the wholistic experience and what other systems/challenges are in place. Combat is for sure a very important part but also the challenges of the quests, puzzles, depth of crafting , economy and excellent lore can for me allow the combat be a bit same same and I would still love the MMO.
The main attraction for me in AOC is clearly the Node system , the classes system, the picking of a religion for your character and being a member of a Town/City and helping it grow or just survive.
But I hear you, the combat needs to feel fluid, it needs to feel tactical, the different classes should feel different and it shouldn't be boring and repetitive.
One downside of utter transparency of development is we see all the warts and all as the game evolves......peace out my 2 cents became 3 cents sorry
The devs should take a step back from this thought that everyone wants the same thing from the genre, or that what their current vision is will be outright accepted by players because everything else the game has to offer seems great. Combat is a core element of rpgs in general, if your combat isn't great, you're just going to have people who try the game out for a few weeks or months then drop it outright.
Proposed changes:
Lay the groundwork for both common control types.
Tab Targeting
For whatever reason, this type seems to be wildly unpopular now, and that's probably because only a handful of games have done it in a way that feels good to use. Proposed features would be as follows:
- Avoid GCD. GCD games almost invariably have forced rotations, because why wouldn't you pick your best, non-CD skills over all others if they're always ready? Short CDs assigned to each skill prevent forced rotations. Say you have a powerful sequence of skills, but those skills take 6 seconds to go through, but have a 12-24sec CD. That gives time for the player to use other skill combinations and prevents the stagnation of just hitting 1,2,3,4 on GCD skills.
Action Type Controls (BDO, Tera, etc.)Seems to be the most popular control choice now, but it has clear shortcomings, as does tabbing, but also has never been used to potential. Proposed changes would be as follows:
- Follow BDO's lead, but go beyond so as to allow as much skills to be actively available to the player as you could get with an expanded tab-targeting layout with multiple hotbars. BDO has the most fleshed-out a-type control of any mmo I've played, but there are glaring holes in it's configuration. The game uses several different mouse button and key combinations for each class, and allows for around 20-30+ skills actively available to the player to use at any given time. However, of those 20-30+ skills, very few skills are bound to an action + modifier key like shift, ctrl, or alt. You could easily have upwards of 60+ actions available in an a-type control scheme, but nobody's ever done it.
- As with the previous type, avoid mechanics like GCD and lack of skill flexibility that almost force players into rotation ruts.
- Radial wheels. While not everybody likes them, their a good way to bind skills and items to be quickly available to the player
Common Points Between Both SystemsThe core of combat can use additional features and the removal of things too experimental to work.
There's no reason to have a combat system with so little depth as what they've shown to us so far. Their initial reveal of classes running around with 4 or 5 skills on a 9 slot bar earlier last year was laughable, and the 1-10 + G and R skillbar they have now is almost just as silly. Game with that poor of a combat system only last if they have brand names behind them. If combat is going to play any part of shaping the world of AoC, it needs to be drastically better, and I believe the points I've brought up are at least a good jumping-off point for changes to be made to accommodate all types of players and have a combat system with depth.
Tab Targeting can be just as enjoyable as Action based if the game AROUND the system is designed to enhance it. If the encounters are designed to test your knowledge and applicability of your skills, your ability to problem solve, think quickly, and react, not just your groups DPS/HPS/WhateverPS. I think the biggest issue with the system is that the games around them have become so 'streamlined' in order to maximize their playerbase that the level of intricacy that used to be present in combat that made it fun just isn't there anymore. Having 50 skills doesn't matter if the only thing you have to do is maximize your damage or healing, you'll just settle into using the same 5 skills regardless of the combat being Tab or Action based.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen that dynamic combat is what Intrepid is going for, right? Does the way you go about it really make that big of a difference? Different ways to solve the same fight, constantly evolving situations, *gasp* real honest to god crowd control?!?! My Enchanter friends are drooling already. Maybe its just me, but I think the type of combat system that is implemented has far less bearing on the quality and enjoyment of combat than everything that goes into it.
TL:DR/Why is the old man still talking- Give the combat a chance regardless of its styling, look more towards what they are wanting to do to make it interesting. Beating a one armed man to death with a stick is boring, beating a one armed man with a flamethrower and the knowledge to use it to death with a stick is exciting.
The end of the first quoted paragraph makes me think you just didn't read what I wrote, because I mentioned having individual CDs on all skill so not just the most powerful are used. I also mentioned another mechanic to avoid limited skill rotation when I talked about skill chains.
So yes, it absolutely makes a difference. Have you not seen their current combat system? Have you not seen the PAX demo where they had attacks that were basically active reload from Gears of War? The skills and combat system are tied together, and what they've presented so far is inadequate. Saying "oh, it's still pre-alpha, lets have blind faith in the devs and shoot down anyone who tries to give constructive criticism" is asinine and unhelpful. I put forth things that would attract and maintain more people and you responded with, "yea, but i don't like people having choice, even if the effort on the devs' side would be relatively small."
I don't think people realize the debate is between two input methods that are so functionally similar that they could be done side-by-side. There's no reason it should be so hard to make an action bound to a player's '1' key have the same function as the same skill bound to another's LMB. The only issue is hard lock-on tab vs context lock-on.