Ashes of Creation - "Dear Intrepid, Let's Talk About Your Combat System.."

ArchivedUser

Some food for thought.

https://youtu.be/FdNuuWPjsU4

Do you think its good or bad? What would you change, how would you change it? Be as constructive and detailed as possible!

ArchivedUser

There are going to be many of these over the next couple days. Lots of Chicken Little. I personally am going to reserve judgement till it is more fleshed out. People wanted something different, they got it. Also saw a post that the system is like a slowed down Overwatch. Don't know, never played it.

ArchivedUser

Hi,

I agree that the precision bar should be moveable, and someone on discord even suggested a circle instead of a bar as a reticle in the center of your view.  As long as it's moveable, I like the precision bar!
(EDIT:  After this comment, Steven and team said during the PAX panel that it will be fully customizable, circle and all.)

I do agree w/ the assessment that the rest of the combat isn't particularly innovative.  That's ok as long as it's enjoyable. 

-tug

ArchivedUser

tugowar said:

Hi,

I agree that the precision bar should be moveable, and someone on discord even suggested a circle instead of a bar as a reticle in the center of your view.  As long as it's moveable, I like the precision bar!

I do agree w/ the assessment that the rest of the combat isn't particularly innovative.  That's ok as long as it's enjoyable. 

-tug

Yeah a circle would be much better! 

ArchivedUser

Just make it a visual que on each character's weapon (client side so you don't give your attack away to opponent) then there's no need for more UI tools on screen,and players can remain focused on what's happening on screen.

ArchivedUser

how about slowing down the attack animation at some random point of its execution for like 0.2 sec instead of the UI bar?

ArchivedUser

I like the hybrid system where attacks can miss but it's not impossibly hard (Wildstar gets this part right).  I don't want too much innovation in a combat system.  Tool bar abilities that can be key mapped with the hybrid hit system is great and then they can add an improvement or small innovation here or there to make it better than what has come before.


Think:  Familiar yet fresh.


I do agree that instead of a bar to watch at the bottom of the screen some other visual cue more centrally located would be better so as not to draw the eye away from the action.  As long as the UI is fully customizable so that I can resize and move things around I'll be able to make it work.

ArchivedUser

This is why Intrepid is being so open with the games development, constructive feedback. Combat is the one thing most of us will partake in far more than any other system in the game, yet there will never be a combat system developed that will make everyone happy, what some enjoy others will not.
The bar has to go, I would spend half my time watching it instead of the game  and no doubt standing in red lol. I think some sort of visual cue would be best, it could still be on a random timer during the combat animation. Your weapon could gain some sort of aura or as shown the combat effect could change colour. The cue could also have some sort of colour customization or different visual effect so you could find an effect or colour you easily recognize, not all could use a colour based system.
 As for the combat effects, animations etc this is just the starting point, not even pre alpha, years of work lay ahead, animations will be smoothed out models rendered. Its all about our feedback, and that feedback being constructive.

Keep up the good work DeathsProxy you have a far louder voice than most of we mere plebs.   

ArchivedUser

and this is why i did not like what they had talked about when describing combat....the slide bar only works in a more action oriented setting.....and as someone said before, if this is what they are going with i recommend reticle and more action/aim focused and put this around the aim reticle as a circle......if not....if not....90% of the player base is going to miss the beauty of the combat because they will be playing ashes of UI instead of ashes of creation.....git dem sweet tunnel visions staring at dat combo bar lolol, gonna be funny if it stays as is.

ArchivedUser

Your video pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

I saw that bar and my first thought was "wow, that's clunky"

ArchivedUser

Nice video @DeathsProxy. I agree with the bar being more visible. I've mocked up an idea, where the bar appears as a class specific symbol on the UI while performing a keystroke combo. Ranger gets a bow, fighter gets a sword, etc...

ArchivedUser

I think people should really think of what can help the game before its tooooooo late to change as an mmo player i think this type of combat is a bit slow and not enjoyable in 2017 and oh boy imagine it be in late 2018.... i really wish its not gonna be like FFXIV 1.0 disaster in terms of gameplay (mini bar combo based system, no auto-atts) really hope the best for the dev team.

ArchivedUser

Chromo said:

I think people should really think of what can help the game before its tooooooo late to change as an mmo player i think this type of combat is a bit slow and not enjoyable in 2017 and oh boy imagine it be in late 2018.... i really wish its not gonna be like FFXIV 1.0 disaster in terms of gameplay (mini bar combo based system, no auto-atts) really hope the best for the dev team.

i rather have it slow and methodical than the button mashing trash we got recently.

ArchivedUser

Too much trying to reinvent the wheel. The system should take its cues from either TESO, GW2, Wildstar or DCUO. Let the game speak through its features, don't over burden yourselves trying to create a new fighting system when there are already better ones out there to innovate on while also giving as much focus as possible to the nodes, world systems, etc.  Right now there is far too much of a delay in the combat that makes the combos not look feasible.

Rome was not built in a day and poor combat will kill the game. *points to The Secret World*

ArchivedUser

this is what you have accomplished? THIS???? THIS IS IT????? you show us fotoage of you creating a fully fleshed out fucking arena is a few hours of work.. and THIS is all you have to show for ''combat''? 

go back to the drawing board Intrepid.

you are really pissing me off with this.

ArchivedUser

Very well done video This is the kind of feedback Intrepid Studios will be looking for  

ArchivedUser

I found that the animations still need to be refined, the combat is a tad slow. The icons for me need to be a little larger. The combo bar needs to be reworked it will be a distraction during combat it needs to be seen and acted upon without delay.

I just hope the people who come to PAX gives the DEVS constructive feedback.

ArchivedUser

Uao said:

how about slowing down the attack animation at some random point of its execution for like 0.2 sec instead of the UI bar?

That would mean writing a lot of code, I dont think they will do that. Its ok in single player games.

ArchivedUser

Agreed, the timing mechanic does look a bit tedious as is.

Also consider what modifiers come into effect with it, can I stack up haste? If so, does that make it considerably harder to pull off. Will there be enhanced abilities making it easier to hit the red bar, or even eliminate it altogether? Is it randomly placed in the bar, or same spot for same abilities, if it's the same you would eventually get used to the timing and negate looking at the bar.

A visual aspect in the spell cast could be added to it, but again I feel it will draw your vision to your character in battle, instead of the environment as with many spell effects flying around on screen can be daunting at times.

The combo system that generates focus, could also potentially just be spell order driven eg. Frostbolt - Lightening - Arcane Missle, Frosbolt freezes the target, more conductive while frozen when hit with lightening, missles shatter targets icy form = bonus focus.

Will be interesting to see the feedback they get at PAX :-D

ArchivedUser

make the combos with a visual and sound cues

all classes have weapons, it's a weapon skill combo, there was a great ideia on this topic to make the weapon change color or a bright light like songoku when combo is available. 
make the char scream a differente sound like (aaaargh or fuuuuuu lol) or some generic stuff

there was a great game out there where the UI was all in the back of the char. we have weapons, screams, lights, belts, boots, rings, trinkets, anything but bars and scrolls

but I think that simple combo is a great ideia, it's not a clustertuck, it's not in every skill which would cause confusion. Just a combo on your main ability power regenerator to make it more interesting while elevating that skill ceiling just a little bit more

ArchivedUser

...it's a good thing you can't by access to the pre-Alpha stage. Nobody would even want the game after they played that...

ArchivedUser

My friend was telling me there was a system where when you're in combat if you click at the right time like in the middle of the bar it would help you do more damage or give more of a bonus in fighting some how, like in gears or war reloading. That sounded cool, was wondering what everyone elses opinion on it? 

ArchivedUser

Hi everyone,

first the link of the Pax West Pre-Alpha Tutorial where you can see the combat qte(quick time event): 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMlOqAj9kXE

Opinion
In general I really like the idea of quick time events and no auto attack as combat.
With the qte I was wondering if the point to hit is always at the same spot so you can learn the rhythm of all the spells by heart. Also the bar with the qte is kinda hard to pay attention to, so i hope they improve the ui/feedback to make it easier to notice when to hit, during intense combat.

ArchivedUser

I like the principle, the only comment I have (also posted in another thread) is that the "slider bar" could be more prominent on the screen.

ArchivedUser

Pre alpha feedback:

The UI action/combo bar (80s Golf Swing) needs to be abolished. I hope* it is just a place holder for in game asset integration of animations, audio and visual cues.
Less UI clutter, more visceral dynamic engaging combat please.

If we look at the Ranger we can see he has a red effect on his draw arm, this could change colour of pulse effect at optimal action intervals with sounds for example, basically turn his draw arm into the action bar. His power shot already has a visual cue effect on the bow aside from the 'action bar'.

There is no group dynamic teamwork or opponent counter play to a UI action bar.

Also make auto attack on base weapon attack optional, Gw2 does so by right clicking a weapon ability icon. Some people might not want to be fully engaged in combat while doing less intensive activities such as gathering or traveling. At least have the option for auto attack functionality.

ArchivedUser

I would prefer on-character-model queues over a bar I think, build it into the world instead of into the UI.

There's no ignoring the fact that it's a quick time event which will probably cripple people with bad reaction time or any kind of lag.

ArchivedUser

I like not having auto attacks. This is fine. I think thier are a few types of combat.

WoW
ESO
BDO
Wildstar

Each game have thier own play styles and other games have similar and different iterations of these core types of game play. 

I like something more skill oriented than ESO, but no so difficult for newbs as BDO. I think BDO sucked in that it was very difficult for player who couldn't get the button presses down just couldn't even play period.  This means it's game i can't play with my G/F or low skill friends and forces me to play with folks on the knifes edge of play. Which is cool, but it's just waay to far. ESO in this game every thing you do has a button press to it kind of game play, it's too basicly. Lots of roles don't have a very high skill ceiling.. 



I think auto attacks are kind of pointless.  It's like giving every class a dot just by being close or in line of sight of your target. I like rewarding players for being actively engaged in the game play. I also think builds like the area PVP lich king death knight build i ran where all i did was load up dots and let pets attack you while i just used none interacting skills to keep myself alive are a little unfun for the opponent as that skill gap starts to disappear. Same can be said for some sorc pet builds where you throw pets and run in eso, and could explode a few of them for free no effort damage. Both of these builds i played alot and i'd go so far as to say they were both my primary means of play, and i can say i think they suck for your opponent. 

As such i kind of like the no auto attack approach, and i really like having timed attacks. Where i agree is that timed attacks should have some other on screen dipiction for it's implementation. Absolver does this very well where in your character flashes when you should finish your ability.  This would allow all player access to every skill, but also reward good player. This way noobs don't feel like they are only playing half thier class, but they can't just be good from just picking it up. 

I think by using the absolver style character blink you can keep your eyes on the action and still keep that reaction mechanism. 

In lue of auto attacks maybe make it so any skill could be toggled to be cast automatically for semi AFK farmin. 

ArchivedUser

My mind went to Stan, soon as i read the title... 

ArchivedUser

I have not played it so it's hard for me to comment. Just from looking I will agree with DeathsProxy with saying I don't know if I like the combo bar. With some turning and adjustments I think it could turn into a fun system that keeps gameplay from getting stale. But it also has the chance to make the game unplayable to low skill players or players that do not have good internet. 

That being said I think it looks great for a game that is in "pre-pre-pre-pre-jurassic-before-the bigbang-ever-happened-or-didn't-happen-alpha". I can't wait to see how it evolves overtime.

ArchivedUser

Combo bar should change or gotten rid of altogether. What makes this game amazing to me is it's visuals and attention to details. I don't wanna Miss on that beauty because I'm focusing on that bar. Other games have dealth with the same issue. NBA2k has realized this with their shot meter and they changed it for their upcoming gaming to be in a center location to see more of the game than a bar. I know this is a whole different type of game but it was a smart move by 2k and I think the developers here could learn from that and try to make the combo bar more in the center so we can see the effort in the details of this game.

ArchivedUser

Heard Jeffrey answering questions off of Twitch say that it was just added for PAX as an indicator so people could see the mechanic. That over the course of development, while the idea behind the system will NOT change, the way it is displayed on the UI WOULD change and be tweaked in the future.