Quests and leveling, actually being hard!

Please Please let leveling actually be hard again in an mmorpg. I feel like ive done countless mmo's and have got so bored so fast because the leveling was not difficult, I can remember some mmo's where I didn't even die all the way up to level cap, or I look down at my level and I see that I'm already level 25 and think, "how the eff did that happen? I just started playing an hour ago." So my point is this, I remember back in the old days of WOW (not a fan boy btw) where it took five, six hours+ if you knew where to go just to get to level 10, and that was the easy levels. You also died multiple times trying to get there. I think thats why that game was so addictive and the most played. (personally)

I want the challenge back, I want most of my content to be within my questing, the difficulty of the game. If you are thinking to yourself"you are crazy man I just want to get to max level to get to the good stuff" I say to you, the good stuff should be throughout the entire game. I know that AOC is going with a NODE system for it to be ever changing which is sweet. I have kept up on all AOC's twitch, blogs, etc. I guess what I am asking is for it to be harder, I am looking at the leveling Steven was doing during his alpha zero test and I think it could be even harder then it is. If you think that the hardness of a game will deter people away, just look at dark souls and see why that is so popular. I don't want to be level 50 in a week or two, I want to be level 50 in a year.. I think adding the level of difficulty will make the game that much more immersive. I will have to know where I am going, and be involved in the ever changing world in order to be amazed. With Stevens ideas of no fast travel, only walking, I think my dream of actually having a difficult mmo again, might come true. What are your thoughts? and also Have they talked about this to any extent? I cannot seem to find it. Thanks for all your input:)
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Comments

  • It was said somewhere that leveling in this Alpha was going to be excellerated
  • I agree with so much of your post Sgtfire and feel similarly.  You mentioned old WoW.

    I believe the 'craziness' of WoW vanilla is what many people to this day still long for in that game.  Blizzard has made so many quality of life improvements throughout the years... much needed qol improvements, and the game has improved in so many ways, but along the way, any challenge associated with leveling was lost.

    Today, in my opinion, the only challenges in WoW lie in end game raiding and PvP.  Leveling has become something one must 'hurry up and get through' in order to do what really matters... And the 'hurry up' happens whether intentional or not.  The levels fly by compared to how it once was.

    Though there is no level cap, Black Desert Online seems to also have made early leveling easier than it was originally.  I have no direct knowledge of this as I discovered the game after any changes, but forum discussions often describe them as being bad for the game. 

    I do though remember being a low level character in WoW vanilla and trying to run with two friends to Ironforge for the first time.  Back then,  the only alliance auction house was located there, so we thought it worth the trip. 

    Well, while running through the wetlands... on the road,  giant crocodiles would aggo us from way off in the swamp, run out, and one shot us.  We died so many times lol.  Rez...run... Die.  Over and over.  It was so awful and so funny at the same time. 

    We eventually made it to Ironforge, we laughed about it alot, and we felt a real sense of camaraderie having all suffered through the same miserable trip.

    Today Blizz has 'fixed' the aggro problem in those areas, and the crocodiles leave road travelers alone.  Probably a needed fix, but I do wonder what stories the new players tell about leveling...

    Vanilla players seem to have many, and most all are about how bad  it 'sucked'.  It in fact, did... And for some reason it is still remembered fondly.

    I trust the devs of games know what is best for a game and that is why  leveling changes are made once it has been played for a bit, but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if the AoC devs make some  leveling 'mistakes'  similar to those that were made in the early days of WoW.


  • I don't know if it'll be hard, but I know it won't be grindy
  • I also really hope that there is a sense of danger when levelling and fighting mobs. The whole idea of "endgame" is flawed. Nobody wants to make - or play - a game where players have to suffer through 100hours of play time to reach the fun. Every level should feel rewarding, and like you have achieved something. The last MMO I played that gave me this feeling was Dark Age og Camelot, and perhaps The Secret World (not the new versjon, mind you). I've tried most the MMOs on the market today, but most of them are silly easy and I find that I usually while levelling
    1. Don't care when I gain levels and skills points
    2. Don't bother optimizing my build
    3. Don't care when I find new gear
    The mobs usually die by just looking at them anyway, so why should I? And if the levels come too fast, the gear I am finding just gets outdated really fast.

    I can understand that there are different opinions to this as well. Someone wants to feel like a superhero from level 1, while others wants to be a dude who just picked up a sword and has to work for progress. 

    At the minimum, I hope there is (a scaling) diversity in the difficulty of the mobs, and that if I want greater challenge I can find tougher mobs to fight. Today's games usually have really easy open world mobs, and only dungeons (sometimes) and raids have any difficulty.

    There should be many degrees of challenge, for different sizes of groups. Whether I am playing solo, with a friend, or with a group, I want to be able to push my character and my build. And be rewarded if I succeed.
    That should fit nicely with the Risk vs Reward mentality that Intrepid is promoting. 
  • WoW devs have admitted, on those Q and A sessions they do that levelling has become silly. The next expansion will increase the bracket size. If it was 1-10 it'll be something like 1-20 now. So you won't outlevel a zone quite as quick. But Ion Hazzi...something also mentioned that they had discussed just removing levelling entirely (Which won't happen, of course. Fifty something euro cash shop for a levelling token)

    But to come back to your own post, I agree with most anything you've said. The biggest time drain on those levelling system of early wow, were waiting for resources (mana/hp) or corpse runs. Which is actually good, having to properly pull, during levelling, otherwise you'd die. It was a skill you needed in dungeons too. Waiting for mana and such during levelling, prepared you, and made you patient to wait for healer mana in dungeons. All things that have gotten lost along the way.

    The point I am trying to make is. Levelling is an experience in it's own, it's comparable with a very in-depth, long tutorial. Where you will be learning, and coming to grips with game mechanics, class mechanics, and all sorts of other interactions. And you want to give players time to learn these things within your levelling process.
  • I want a little bit of a grind @Ariatras I agree with your post that the leveling process is an experience to be enjoyed and to learn from. :mrgreen:

  • Leveling should be challenging, however I do not want it to be just grinding in the same area for hours killing the same mobs to gain a small amount of experience like in BDO.
  • I agree that leveling should be challenging, and the world dangerous. I can't play any current MMOs because the leveling experience does not challenge me whatsoever and I end up getting bored. I won't write an essay on why I favor challenging leveling ( even though I would love to  :p ). 

    However realistically, there will always be a more casual oriented player base, and they might not like it, However if the target Group for Ashes are more hardcore oriented players, then I don't think this will be a problem. On the other side, if they do want please both sides; I would favor hard mode servers, this way the game play enjoyment of both sides won't be affected by each other   
  • I believe Ashes of Creation will be challenging.  As players explore and discover the world, players choice will matter.  The risk reward concept combined with an ever changing world will provide that challenge.  No global travel and auction house will also create amazing player interactions and stories.  Picture "Lord of the Rings" with 1000s of different versions based on what you and the band of friends you develop choose to do. 
  • Oh man you took the words right out of my mouth.

    Here is hoping I don't see a 'Level up to max level in under a hour guide' on the internets for AOC. Divinity Original Sin 2 is one game where leveling up your character is in itself an amazing achievement.
  • Long time back the timeframe stated was that they were looking at a 45-60 day window to "max level." With their horizontal progression and other skill plans many people were wondering how this would be achieved. Also what constitutes a day. 2 hours played a day is a lot for some, while other spend 8-12 hours a day. We know there will be no labor mechanic in place like some f2p/p2w games (quotes at end) so how they plan to throttle peoples progress should be interesting.


  • i used to play dark age of Camelot the lving in that game was a long time when it first came out i still remember my guild master being lv 50 the max but tuck him over a month to get it while rest of guild was maybe lv 30 at the time
  • Yes most MMO's these days are not even a challenge when it comes to grinding, the only one i can think of is Black Desert.


  • Timestamp 26:00, "No grind, we hate the grind!"

  • The grind is a big part in an MMO.
    i'm sure some people would prefer not to grind for hours upon hours,but thats honestly how a MMO should be ''a time sink''



  • I guess there are two different types of "challenge" being discussed here, and reading OPs post again I think he refers to them both:
    1. How dangerous are the mobs
    2. How much time is needed to level
    You can have really easy mobs that give little XP, thus slow levelling.
    You can also have really strong mobs that give a lot of XP, thus fast levelling.

    Personally, I'm not too worried about 2. I think levelling pace will be fine. There are "only" 50 levels and as the game is new, I think the pace of levelling will naturally be slower. The problem with levelling pace usually emerges after some years when the level cap suddenly is 100, and people wanna blaze their alts to "end game". Hopefully AoC will not become one of those games.

    For me though, I am much more interested in bullet point 1 when I talk about challenge. I liked the times when getting adds usually meant having two choices: run, or die.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited January 2018
    emilo said:
    The grind is a big part in an MMO.
    i'm sure some people would prefer not to grind for hours upon hours,but thats honestly how a MMO should be ''a time sink''



    And they are of the opinion that their version of "a time sink" will be different. I don't know how they can get much clearer than the statement of "killing the same mobs, for 16 hours, to gain one quarter of an experience bar, is not what we are going to do." How they will implement it will be unveiled over the next several months, but your opinion of "honestly how a MMO should be" doesn't look to carry much weight.
  • Great conversation, I appreciate all of your input into the discussion! 
  • I know this is a waaay old topic, but I found it while googling a bit. The reason is, I want to give this game a try, after my all time favorite (Aion) which I 've played for almost 8 years, finally got ruined. Levelling is pathetically easy (you can reach lvl 80 in just a couple of days now, while it took me several years to level my characters simultaneously), storyline got heavilly condensed, they got rid of several and cool (although old) game zones and features, just for the sake of PvP and end game content. To me, levelling, doing quests and gathering gear was everything, and was never too fond of PvP. Now it has been taken away and I am just uninstalling it and willing to give this one a try. I can't be more upset right now! Too bad, since it's really hard to find a game who has a balanced game system, challenging and also with good graphics and BGM like Aion used to have. Hopefully AoC will make me change my mind!  Glad to be here!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Canitop said:
    I know this is a waaay old topic, but I found it while googling a bit. The reason is, I want to give this game a try, after my all time favorite (Aion) which I 've played for almost 8 years, finally got ruined. Levelling is pathetically easy (you can reach lvl 80 in just a couple of days now, while it took me several years to level my characters simultaneously), storyline got heavilly condensed, they got rid of several and cool (although old) game zones and features, just for the sake of PvP and end game content. To me, levelling, doing quests and gathering gear was everything, and was never too fond of PvP. Now it has been taken away and I am just uninstalling it and willing to give this one a try. I can't be more upset right now! Too bad, since it's really hard to find a game who has a balanced game system, challenging and also with good graphics and BGM like Aion used to have. Hopefully AoC will make me change my mind!  Glad to be here!
    Did they really ruin it that much? Was a Chanter main in my prime and loved it. xD
    I stopped playing when it turned into a F2P and didnt really watch any of the news surrounding it.
    Either way, I really hope that they are gonna buff the mobs so that you cant just faceroll over them... I mean in WoW nowadays you just pull 15 mobs and nuke them down as a tank.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
     I do understand wanting challenge 100%, just in the right ways. Leveling shouldnt be a drag / long hrs or grinding much
  • I'm ok with leveling being "hard' but how do you separate that from being tedious? I also don't want Maplestory 2 leveling where I'm level 40 in an hour. I want to feel accomplished when I level same thing with a quest. I don't want hard quest but I don't want easy ones either. I want creative quest. I don't want to have every quest I get require some large party for every part or a fetch quest. I want to actually complete a story and see the result. Not, "go to this area and kill X mob(s) that require X amount of people. Maybe send me somewhere that requires platforming, or putting together some type of mechanism that I could use against an otherwise hard foe. Block a mountain pass by creating a land slide. SOMETHING UNIQUE. Not I have to get a group together to complete an entire quest. Because then you have 1 person on one part, and then you're just repeating the same parts 3-4 times to get everyone through everything. Let parts 1-3 being solo, the 4th part maybe a group, 5-8 solo, 9-11 maybe require a party to be easier or some platforming but everything could be solo and then once you're reach the end line of the quest you can throw in a few things that require a group back to back so you're not continuously just repeating steps to get other people caught up in a quest.

  • An important part of this game is the move away from the concept of "end game" where the game only REALLY starts once you are at the level cap. This should help make the actual fact of leveling peripheral as you will be doing fun and interesting things throughout, leveling should not be at the forefront of your thought or goal (although I think many of us will take a while to get used to that from years of conditioning in other games).

    @McKnightrider
    I have to say, in the quest department, no matter how much I scoffed at the idea when I first heard it I have to admit I completely agree with thelazypeon when he said that runescape has some of the best, most unique and impactful quests of any mmo. I'm not going to pretend I've played a ton of mmos but man the more I think about how cool, challenging and game-changing (in how you experienced the world and game) the quests in that game were, it's hard to picture a comparable or superior system.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Damokles said:
    Did they really ruin it that much? Was a Chanter main in my prime and loved it. xD
    I stopped playing when it turned into a F2P and didnt really watch any of the news surrounding it.
    Either way, I really hope that they are gonna buff the mobs so that you cant just faceroll over them... I mean in WoW nowadays you just pull 15 mobs and nuke them down as a tank.
    Ohhh they did it and then some! I remember before it was F2P (I don't have anything against that) there were group quests, in order to get gear, and not even for end game... it was different! The other thing, they have changed the skill system so many times, when there was nothing wrong with it. What is the point of fixing things tht are not broken? ( I had one character per class) Now what do we have there? Story almost nonexistent, and almost no players below lvl 80 (that is the actual lvl cap). No quests, just fortress raids which are all pvp and nothing more. The gear is extremely easy to get (you don't even need to fight for it, you just buy it from other players) and the game alone has no challenge anymore. After 8 years playing, I think of this as an insult. Not to mention the hacking! Aion is definetely a game I absolutely recommend NOT to play anymore.
  • Thats just sad to hear...
    It was one of my childhood mmorpgs (AION, WoW and Guild Wars 1)
    I just hope that IS learned of NCSofts failure.
  • Look, there is nothing wrong about trying to keep the day up to date, adding new features and new zones, that is actually refreshing. BUT! Why getting rid of the all features we are all used to, and also getting id of the old areas, instead of adding new content to them? That is the reason I decided to quit that game, and sadly, has been a canon with several other MMORPGs.
  • I'm not into levels at all but i put up with them if the end game and pvp is good. I prefer horizontal progression where skills are upgraded the more they are used. This system means a new player can take on a veteran and have fun instead of a level 100 stomping a level 1. Far less griefing in horizontal progressions compared to vertical progressions.
  • Would be awesome if leveling would be actually a challange . Not so much that low skilled players get frustraded but hard enough to feel like i deserved the level with work/skill/tactic . It should be possible for everyone to reach max lv. but it should not be achievable by toneless grinding . 

    What i would rly wish for .. and even if im pretty confident with this game i still cant imagine this will happen would be to make it possible for skilled players to beat much stronger enemys . Sounds simple but its a rare thing . You need skill based mechanics and mobs with various skills so u can use your skill to dodge or block at the right moment, counter there skills, have a good timing etc. 

    The more finished and complex the fighting system and the mob mechanics are the more you can reach with your skill . And its a rly satisfying feeling to beat something high over your level or to beat a boss solo cause you dodged all of his attacks with good timing, countered his skills with your skills and mby knew a mechanic how to use the tarrain . 

    In general i think every kind of skill should be rewarded in a perfect game . So players who good at tactic get rewarded cause they can beat hard raids as group leaders . People who are just smart and good with numbers can get rich with trading . People with patience and passion get good crafters, and people with high reaction and keyboard skills can beat stronger enemys . A Dream .

    But as i said i cant imagine now that they implement that kind of polished fighting system at release . But im happy if im wrong ^^
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Abasole said:
    "I'm not into levels at all but i put up with them if the end game and pvp is good. I prefer horizontal progression where skills are upgraded the more they are used. This system means a new player can take on a veteran and have fun instead of a level 100 stomping a level 1. Far less griefing in horizontal progressions compared to vertical progressions."


    I also enjoy horizontal progression.  SWG had the best system for customizing your character.  250 talent pts to spend as wish.  6 different starting base professions and 20 + advanced professions.  I am hoping that Ashes implements some of the same random customization options within there 64 class system and horizontal progressions. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited November 2018
    Berros said:
    Abasole said:
    "I'm not into levels at all but i put up with them if the end game and pvp is good. I prefer horizontal progression where skills are upgraded the more they are used. This system means a new player can take on a veteran and have fun instead of a level 100 stomping a level 1. Far less griefing in horizontal progressions compared to vertical progressions."


    I also enjoy horizontal progression.  SWG had the best system for customizing your character.  250 talent pts to spend as wish.  6 different starting base professions and 20 + advanced professions.  I am hoping that Ashes implements some of the same random customization options within there 64 class system and horizontal progressions. 
    Yes. I still havent found a replacement for SWG Pre CU2. They really damaged the game with CU2. I miss the massed PvP fights in deserts on Tattooine and the old system for being a Jedi where you'd be reset for death. So much fun to be had back then. I am hoping Ashes will give us a similar experience but i doubt we'll get horizontal progression because there are far less of us that have experienced it compared to the vertical progression thanks to games like WoW.

    Where i gain some hope for horizontal progression is via these in game nodes for Ashes. They seem very intriguing. Also i'm a sucker for sieges and Guild Castles.
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