Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Period.
and it falls back on the "NO p2W" absolute solution to any issue...
I mean did you even try to read the post,even just a little Steven?
I couldn't script the perfect irony....
That said, if the OP's concern becomes true then technically Ashes would be free to play and anyone paying for a sub would only be paying for Embers. On top of that since there will never be P2W cash shop items, everyone that plays for free will have the exact same experience as those that sub.
Problem is that anyone who doesn't care about latest cosmetics, or is capable of trading found cosmetics or Embers, stops giving Ashes any money.
So then the game becomes free for everyone and Steven takes it upon himself to pay for the game forever.
No P2W means no F2P means subs will always matter but...
Steven didn't say Ashes will never be F2P in his response, so I guess the OP's potential downfall of Ashes is still possible...
Really this is a RARE oppurtunity that we have, because Steve is a gamer and from what I have seen really smart as for as MMORPGs go and has a clear understanding of your concerns. He is spearheading the entire project personally and so far done a pretty good job in my opinion so the chance of many many wrong turns is pretty low.
Basically you are stating suspicions I guess that is OK. But in the Fashion that you and some other people are doing it. It is like you are already burning IS at the stake
before the game even gets off the ground. Real world solution to all your suspicions is wait till it comes out play for one month if you do not like you lose 15 dollars so what....
This could happen...That could happen..This happened in this MMORPG That happened in That MMORPG. But really there is no real evidence so far that IS is LIKE that. Kind of like asking your wife Are you Cheating on me? with nothing to support it. Some of posts I have read have made very serious implications about IS unjustly smearing their image and we are in Alpha zero.
If you do not like the business model that is ok, but some of the wording I have read makes IS to be something they are not. (convaluted, greasy, confusing, shady and a lot of other things in other posts in Microtransactions) In my opinion it has reached the point where it can be called toxic. Thing is if we were to make a mock trial with a mock judge and mock attornies and be objective about it this case would get thrown out of court on inconlusive evidence. But you would be able to make a lot of unfounded accusations.....
The only thing that will convince him is seeing how the game triumphs and never goes F2P in the future.
I think this rant has gone for long enough.
I have not bitched and moaned...and if i am pissing in a pot then you seem to be sitting in it, no offense.
I actually have a sense of humor, but it seems anyone questioning or exposing potential* negative aspect regarding particular development decisions, be damned and banished from the "vision" like some sort of cult.
Or any attempt to clarify reasoning as ranting hyperbole even if it was a direct response to a query brought up by the a community member.
Since the kick starter i have witnessed questionable decisions and outcomes, So in my opinion it is not a perfect record.
It was a serious concern but derailed by fans as a rant and apparently any attempt to critique can expect the same treatment.
so go ahead and shut down criticisms and go about your "nothing to see here" head in sand vision "no P2w" mantra.
Surrounding yourself with YES men never turns out well.
Merry New year.....
Sure, Intrepid might have the desire to follow in the path of other companies.
Some say the Earth might be flat.
Both can be proven with time and effort, which will come later in Intrepid’s case. What you say about Embers is fair. They could lead to insidious ways. Intrepid has decided that Embers are how they would like to represent their store’s currency. Instead of jumping the gun and assuming the worst hypothetical scenarios we can, it would be more rational to recognize that Steven has given his word and considering he’s got more in this project than all of us combined I’m willing to respect their business model as it is what they want to use and has not (and is not likely to) broken any promises.
So long story short, I get it. You’ve been hurt. Many of us have. None of us want to see our hopes for Ashes crumble beneath the weight of greed, but focusing solely on what might be isn’t necessarily the best way to ensure that it doesn’t happen.
Plus the big man has spoken himself. Not a thing I can say that would carry as much weight as that.
If you simply hate the cash shop because well its a cash shop guess what? theres the option of not buying it once so ever. No one is forcing you to get into the cash shop the devs have explained their are LOADS of cosmetics you can unlock in game so its not like the cosmetics are locked behind a pay wall or anything. Watch the Q&A they answer practically all questions and are worth listening to and unlike most Q&A they are interesting and fun to watch. Hell if you want a reason to use the cash shop besides having cosmetics then look at it this way. You would be helping fund a game you love so that it can continue to grow and update (speaking when the game is out of course since you cannot buy cosmetics of yet aside from the pre order deals and add-ons)
edit: Look at league of legends. It has a cash shop for skins..you think league would be as popular as it was if it literally had 0 skins. The game wouldnt be growing. Same with overwatch. Yes ashes has monthly sub but so do all other mmo that are successful. Wow is monthly sub but has a cash shop so does ff online and bdo (not monthly sub but still has a large cash shop) ect ect. None of these games force you to use the cash shop. If you dont like it then dont do it, you can unlock stuff merely by playing the game (ashes and wow both have options in game that allow you to play free, in wow you use in game gold and in ashes you recruit friends who are active)
I did point out that you have no clue how embers are planning to be used, and said multiple ways it could work without making the game F2P(and henceforth P2W, if he wants the game to stay alive). also, do you think managing a small team is an easy job? Steven doesn't have that much time on his hands to read. but you have clearly demonstrated that you have a lot of free time, which you could at least use to read the other side first without labelling us as complacency crowd or whatever.
and about one of the other points you made, Steven is also a gamer, he played Archeage, which is a heavily P2W game. he knows what P2W is and how annoying it is to us. Pretty obvious he knows the game will fail if he adds P2W elements.
As I said before. you are rambling on with absolutely no proof of any of your crap, giving false negative images of something(the game). If that's not paranoia, I don't know what is.
This is kind of similar to during the kickstarter, where haters was saying intrepid was just bogus and Steven is going to bugger off with our money without making any game. as you can clearly see, none of that is true. Can't blame them tho, they probably ran into a couple of project that just made off with their money.
Same thing is happening here. You have had a bad experience with MMOs using gems or something as a failsafe. so you have assumed it's the same here(which it's not).
Personally, I think this has gone on long enough.
If you are going to post any more comments, first show me an MMORPG which is both F2P and not P2W. then we can continue.
The issue stated is Embercoins. Well I could post 5 good uses for Embercoins and you could list 5 bad reasons for Embercoins so....
Right now Embercoins = Incentive to buy bundles. Bundles = way to support game while in development which is critical.(More polished game at launch) Right?
If you want to make a case as to why Embercoins should not be an incentive to buy bundles go ahead. Really not with the Embercoins are here dark days are soon to follow.... But I can see how you could think that. I just rather call things for what they are and not be too presumptious.
I tried multiple times to keep it true to principal issue of intermediary currencies and how they are inherently anti-consumer and by the fact of system adoption are player disrespectful. Therefore lowering my level of respect for intrepid studios.
yes the title was tabloid level click bait/bad case scenario...but it was not unbelievable.
The correct 'direct response' would have been (our intermediary currency/Ember credits and or possible additional currencies will never be used as a ftp conversion or method of subscriber compensation) I don't believe I will get this official statement.
if i was to to be hypothetically compensated or offered with embers for a failed/failing subscription model (happened in the past with other big name MMOs) as an incentive to spend in a shop I prefer not to support with either the currency or shop content, then I would be disappointed/offended. Because it facilitates the crossing of financial thresholds with all manner of risks to developer emphasis.. that's just my personal stance and i am not trying to influence other players educated purchasing decisions.
So my issue is a non direct holistic outcome caused by the very nature and existence of ember credits on the entirety and longevity of the game.
Yes there are few positives, I have even stated some examples and hopes (Highly unlikely). However they negatives outweigh and are inherently disproportionate. Happy to be officially proved wrong at any time.
When I referred to 'bundles' i was not referring to the alpha access packages being offered in the AoC $tore (separate subject) and after the crowd funding bungles i don't want to open that can of worms particularly. However with them, I was made aware of Ember Credits. Perhaps the intention was made earlier for intermediary currency player awareness, I missed that memo and only saw it as evidence in the new alpha packs.
Any way,
what I was referring to was arbitrary dollar/ember bundles ie. $5=1000embers but $10=2500embers etc. with items sold @ 850embers each....again hypothetical values using current predatory marketing trends. Yes I am assuming this is the system we will see.
As it is typical to pretty much every game using this system....which for the majority are f2p/b2p games regardless of the only apparent issue of p2w.
It's hard not to be presumptuous in a industry genre the always seems to find a way to disappoint or fade into obscurity from it's own ego and inflated hype bubble pop.
The proof is the very existence of Ember Credits...I am purposefully laying out the worst case scenario to be officially clarified, so far ironically not the case.
If Intrepid keep leaving piss pots around then somebody will inevitably oblige.
As it has been stated before in this thread, if this is the case, chances are the current pop. won't be here.
If the game is solid and they have the monthly subs they expect, then I firmly believe their "no p2w quote" is directly related to your concern. Your worst case scenario; Subs give embers, non-subs have to pay for embers.
If embers are only for cosmetics would that be enough community support?
If you have 100% access w/out subs and only need/desire to spend 5-10$ monthly for cosmetics why would anyone sub?
Additional income would be needed, assuming lower subs than projected. A higher than 15$ monthly income per player would likely be desirable if funds are draining fast, otherwise this worst case scenario is voided. This would force IS to make $hop items required for 100% access forcing players to buy in if they want freeholds/shops/guild-stuffs/etc.. This is p2w.
They followed your statement to, imo, a logical end game and stated that end game isn't going to happen.
Now if they go back on this then they would pretty much kill the game. Promises of having no pay to win and cash grab features have been part of their core concept and marketing, so going back on that would be seriously stupid.
When it comes to the Embers I don't see the problem. I don't think it's a sign that they are preparing to go free to play if the game fails with a subscription, because that would make them all liars. So why choose Embers and not just real currency? I have no idea. Maybe it's part of the Referral system? Maybe you will be awarded Embers instead of Intrepid Bucks? Maybe it's added to be part of a loyalty program for longtime subscribers? Maybe it's added because they plan on having Embers being rare drops in-game? or part of in-game events? Who knows, time will tell.
It's hard to say 'we are not a cash grab' in 1 hand but in the other sell alpha access and implement a known cash crab mechanism (Ember Credits) in the other. Some other instances of borderline double dips.
I have watched enough streams an interviews which encouraged me enough to back the game during the kick starter phase (2.5mil over the set goal amount) but now seem like PR marketing scripts to maintain the level of hype that peaked and dropped after the KS. Its all towing the message and becoming repetitive to the point of losing substance.
If my subscription gets hijacked into a cash shop ember credit loyalty incentive I will have reason to rage however.
my ideal cash shop would only sell merchandise and not in game digital items. My personal opinion is that a digital cash shop is by its very nature a cash grab, and that cosmetic only* alterations to appearance can have or manipulate into a potential competitive advantage or novelty exploit. whether intentional or not. and all content* provided in the shop could be far better integrated into the actual game.
Suggesting these items would not exist without the store is a poor counter,so is the presumption that the loss of income would break the game as that suggests the Subscription was never viable or the primary choice to begin with..
I knew there would be Store, I still backed knowing the risks...I just hoped for a better outcome...but its run of mill stuff now "not really making MMOs great again, but just another MMO without p2w though, did i tell you it's not p2w? Well it's not p2w...".
The reality is the cash store is a massive cash cow and from my point of view the money can do far more harm than good, consumer conditioning however expects such services as an expected feature* (there is already a post regarding micro transactions on the design systems thread.) So consumers especially their complacency are just as to blame.
The usual rebuttal is trust and honesty towards the developers. I get it...
I believe player respect is more important and should never be abused or taken for granted.
I am seeing more more inclinations towards double standards and marketing jargon.
Ember credits are not encouraging.
Given the history of the MMO genre and even the whole games industry it's a case of guilty until proven innocent I am afraid.
Still looking good, just not great.
I am actually the guy you get to deal with trolls. Easy enough to get confused.
Word of advice, Accusing someone as a 'troll' and bringing them to attention by suggesting they should be ignored is actually counterintuitive.
It's bad form, not helpful, and counterproductive to the community. If they are not a mod trying to chill a thread out or remove they can simply choose not to engage.
@Whocando
Again, I understand your concern. There have been a couple other times after the KS where their double-lingo has made me question their honesty.
If they allow Ember credits to transition into a sub reward and remove the necessity of subs I will be disappointed to and start looking for the next great MMORPG.
I am glad you brought this concern up, even if I don't agree with your situational analysis 100%.
If IS has read the thread, assuming someone on Discord didn't somehow prompt Steven to come over and comment real quick like, then hopefully they take the stance of trying to prove you, and other naysayers, wrong.
If nobody calls out a badguy, there's no reason to stop being bad.
Money is pretty crucial while a company is starting up right? IS is a start up comany.
All your posts in a nutshell 1)Embercoins could be bad which could be said just about anything. 2)Cash shop is greedy could be said about just any company 3)There should be no cash shop all items should be in game. (would defeat the purpose of a cash store you knew we were having one from the start)
Well I am not going to rehash some of my posts for you already dealt with some of your points in a very specific manner not just using negative words.
Just how is a cosmetic item giving me an advantage. Let me guess I did not have to spend time grinding it putting me ahead of the guy in game grinding out some other item. Cash Shop = paying not to grind. But you knew we were going to have a cash shop that would equal pay not to grind from the start, That being the case how does a cosmetic item = advantage..
You say things like advantage which carries a lot of weight but when you look into the details in the arguement it is pretty weak. Prove your point further pls.
I think you are confusing greed with capitalism. I think all of your posts come from the root thought MMORPGS make millions they should not have a cash shop that is just greedy.
Well I would be pretty happy if IS made one billion (hope it is more like ten billion)
in the first year. Mainly because they would be able to take on huge projects. Right now there are things that they simply cannot do. For example writing the code for some of the NPCs to behave and progress like players.
Do you think it would be better if IS provided you with a financial statement letting you know where all the money is going so you will have the peace of mind that IS is not making to much money. Maybe after you carefully review their finances and assets you will be able to respectfully tell IS exactly what their subscription should be and how to handle their own cash shop if necessary. Far be it for IS to make over 10 million net profit in a year. (more like communism salary cap). (said ten million but could be any amount like a billion)
Best solution for the so called greed is a free to play model that way you would not have to spend a cent and other players could pay for the game.
Players will make the greed point even with just a sub. Like we have x number of players means you make x millions with that amount of money we should have this and that.
One time I was at the beach, and it was a really nice sunny day. I took my dog and the girl I was dating at the time and we enjoyed a wonderful sun filled beach day, which is rare where I live.
See the beach is usually very windy and rainy in the PNW and the water is cold. But this wonderful exception was a pleasant surprise on that July afternoon.
I built a sand castle that took me a full hour to complete with a moat and a shell covered central keep. It was impressive. I may have a picture some place. I stood and watched the waves consume it and thought about how life is like that sandcastle...
Anyway, on the way back to my truck, I noticed a very irritating feeling on my foot. I had sand in my shoe. I don't like sand. It's course and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. I had to spend the next 5 minutes walking feeling this uncomfortable sensation, but when I got to my truck, I was able to dump the sand out. Such relief!!
Perhaps this what OP is expirencing? The course, rough, irritating feeling of sand lodged somewhere?
If so, I sympathize brother. Hang tough!!!!
Lets say a cosmetic* outfit removes your class profession appearance, or masks your presence in the environment from your opponent..you now have an upper hand.
Lets say a weapon effect bought in the $tore masks, alters, overwhelms or hides combat animation sequences important to counter play...you now have an advantage.
Lets say a novelty fun* item perhaps a (wand) would allow you to interfere with combat outcomes directly or indirectly as a 3rd party meddler, or perhaps break environment design though abilities not obtainable elsewhere....
Nothing to do with GRIND. As far as i am concerned the only absolute possible way to not have a "no p2w/cash grab" is to not have a shop in the first place period....IMO
Would I like to see a financial statement? as a backer, absolutely yes. I would respect complete transparency.
Was the game fully funded prior to crowd funding....officially stated....yes.
did the KS campaign raise more than 2mil over the goal....yes and I believe Intrepid are still surfing on their self inflated KS hype wave which passed when it ended. all these funding extensions* are becoming offensive and potentially hurting Studio Image...
Making money is not the issue. The original issue was how an intermediary currency like Ember Credits are anti-consumer and what risks* they enable IS to do. Last time I checked a subscription is a form of income.....
(I have changed the OP title from sign* to risk*) to be more relevant and less sensational.
First off, Steven would rather shut down the game than let it go F2P.
Second, I told you how going F2P is going to result in P2W, for monetization and that means every point made here is an argument against your case. prove it wrong, or give us some other reason why it's anti consumer/ risky/ whatever.
if you can't do either, accept the other side. otherwise, you will be branded as a troll.
Whocando said: Troll:One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
to give you a reality check, you just started a loosely based post which was easily dismantled by the first page, but yet you stuck to your opinion on like super glue and argued on and on. as I said above and once in my previous post, P2W and F2P go hand in hand, so debunking one debunks the other.
which I did thoroughly in my last post.
also you said you were in the KS times. and you are the one fighting off trolls. so... how did I never notice you? I did a lot of arguing for the game, I was in basically all the threads at that time.
you do realise that the 'novelty fun' item IS a P2W item, even more so than the costumes. and Steven confirmed there will be no weapon effects in stores. you want it, you earn it.Plain and simple.
next, about the cosmetics you were talking about. ok, so it masks your gear. great. now please explain how that is of any advantage. remember, you can equip any item in the game in any of the slots, including costume shots. so you'll never know if that 'rogue' is actually a rogue or a tank made to distract you.
if you funded the game without even knowing some of the dev's key inspirations, I think you have WAY too much money, or terrible with cash. maybe both, idk. or you are a troll.
TL;DR Your point about turning F2P was debunked in full. now bring another point or don't argue. feeling baselessly offended is a problem with you, not with the game, so don't complain, learn to live with it.