The term " Endgame " will not exists in this MMO. Rather, it will be a core-concept that'll be focused throughout the entirety of the MMO
In other words, Intrepid Devs have already thought it out. Endgame is always something Players experience at the end of a game .... more commonly seen in ThemePark MMOs. Instead, the " endgame " experience will be integral & interconnected within the core of the game itself and *so much* more
Thus, given a better overall MMO experience - how it was supposed to be
EDIT: Mr. Jeffery Bard said something (similar) to this in a Pre-Alpha LiveStream. Think it was sometime in May ? Not too sure. But I am certain that this was said before
The " endgame " is the entirety of the game itself. So it'll always be present. Thus no reason for anyone to try to rush through anything ... since there is nothing to rush through.
Don't see it as a Open-World ThemePark MMO ... but rather an Open-World SandBox MMO
The term " Endgame " will not exists in this MMO. Rather, it will be a core-concept that be focused throughout the entirety of the MMO
In other words, Intrepid Devs have already thought it out. Endgame is always something Players experience at the end of a game .... more commonly seen in ThemePark MMOs. Instead, the " endgame " experience will be integral & interconnected within the core of the game itself and *so much* more
Thus, given a better overall MMO experience - how it was supposed to be
EDIT: Mr. Jeffery Bard said something (similar) to this in a Pre-Alpha LiveStream. Think it was sometime in May ? Not too sure. But I am certain that this was said before
While this sounds great in theory, there is going to be a max level or point in which you can do most of the content, allowing level 1s to be capable of completing raids would be a fatal error in the game. You have to remember some people only want x content so say a raid is x, and to open the raid they need to do y and z. Y being reaching appropriate level, and z developing a node to unlock x raid. People no matter how much Ashes development team dislikes it will rush to get y and z done. And x has now became 'End Game' for this group. Maybe it's not traditonal but it will have to exist in some form or the game with die.
The only thing is we won't know how to unlock x until we unlock it, so at the start of the game the race will be simply to level up a node to the level a raid would spawn at. We haven't been told what level that is, but if I had to guess I would say probably level 5 (city) or 6 (metropolis). A city taking "a few weeks" to construct and a metropolis taking "many weeks", according to Steven, will make the rush a bit slower, possibly to the point where you will be hitting max level around the same time the node becomes a metro. But once we do unlock the raid, consequently, every other server will know how to do it too. But the initial effort of figuring out which nodes unlock what content will be fun And the node-node interaction will be interesting.
@Greek Thats a very narrow-minded perspective of " endgame ". if you think endgame = raids ,,, then i feel bad for you and hope you see why the term won't fit. But i guess i can't blame you so many considers WoW as the " King of MMOs ", as such, their mindset of an MMO will naturally be set in a ThemePark scenario.
If you want this to be better, then you got to stop comparing it to how other MMOs did their thing ... otherwise its going to be another clone
I'm not so much worried about specific "end game" content... Just like every other MMO I'll amass some currency.. look for challenging content or something that takes a long time to do. Find costumes (hopefully there is a lot because we all know... Fashion is the real end game). The problem I find with most MMOs is the lack of consistent new content. I look at patch rates for games like wow and I find myself leveling my 5th alt just for something to do. In cases like that I get my ahead of the curve achievement and let my game time lapse till the next patch rolls out.
@Zastro I realize that the sense we won't know how to open raids, and which nodes will open it, that raiders will probably do things such as dungeons, node leveling, and other parts of the game until some server unlocks a raid.
@Eragale To be clear that is not what I want. I also have many things I want to do in this game. This thread isn't about those things. This thread is for 6-7 months down the line will there be stuff to do other than farm materials and PvP. The reason many people consider WoW 'The King' is because it is the most successful MMORPG in the history of the genre, not taking anything from what WoW has done is a mistake. MMOs improve by 'stealing' other ideas from other MMOs, WoW has done FFXIV has done, ArcheAge did it. It is just part of this industry. I bring up what many gamers do, and that is what is fun for them. Not everyone cares about how they look, or the lore behind the game. Not comparing MMOs is like saying don't listen to history, and to be cliché, 'Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'
I'm not so much worried about specific "end game" content... Just like every other MMO I'll amass some currency.. look for challenging content or something that takes a long time to do. Find costumes (hopefully there is a lot because we all know... Fashion is the real end game). The problem I find with most MMOs is the lack of consistent new content. I look at patch rates for games like wow and I find myself leveling my 5th alt just for something to do. In cases like that I get my ahead of the curve achievement and let my game time lapse till the next patch rolls out.
They have stated that with this payment style, they will be doing updates constantly to the world, but yes hopefully they have a fun way to keep the game rolling between large content patches, WoW this last patch has actually been pretty good about it, the 77 days between each patch made it so a new raid was coming out about the same time the average mythic raider was completing the tier. So kudos to WoW and Legion, granted if you only do heroic then yes those 77 days can seem to drag on.
In terms of end game where AoC could prevail over BDO in terms of providing end game content is in a robust crafting/trading/farming system that is dynamic depending on the nodes. BDO had a great trading/node foundation but it was static - meaning everyone goes for that 1 trade route to maximise income, and 95% of the content is neglected. Imperial trading and trade bonuses introduced a minor element of supply and demand, which could be integral in AoC, with changes in nodes and other factors, rather than peripheral.
While I love end game raiding I don’t really think it’s a good
idea for everyone. I hate being forced into pointless pvp like the pvpers hate
being forced in to raids. Neither of us cares to be forced into farming gold
for gear either(think archeage trade runs). So while I would love to see end
game raids I love to see options more. I can raid / adventure for my gear/stuff
. Someone else can pvp for theirs and someone else can mine,farm,craft and gold farm for theirs.
So no end game please I like to see a
game world where players are not forced to support others play styles to
advance.
I dunno man, Skyrim is a great example of a game with weak endgame that people play endlessly - and that's single player.
It's kind of hard to compare a single player game to an mmorpg, especially since since Skyrim has so many mods that it makes your head hurt, that game just can't bore some people (me included xD) but you can't just mod an mmo game xD.
@Greek Well I am not sure if this game is going to be a fit for you since you are into hardcore raiding and this game is trying to do a balance. As for pvp games die out, well depends on perspective, Eve has been going on for 15 years, UO has been going on for god knows how long, and even Darkfall has been redone.
As for your idea of George Santayana quote that is wrong and historians all generally agree history never repeats as the context is always different. Hilarious when the U.S Army ask for lessons learned to compare Vietnam and Afghanistan, but they have different contexts because of the different time periods.
For the mmo comparison is a bit silly to be used as history considering that mmo's are flavors. Wildstar tried to focus heavy into the pve and Eve Online pvp which are the extremes of both ends of the spectrum and it depends on what you like. Others have said it well, that everyone perception of what their end game is going to be different and this studio is making the right call of offering variety to all players.
Endgame is an archaic model. It gives you something to look forward to, sure, but at the end of completing it, you literally have nothing but sitting and waiting for next patch/update.
Lack of instances will all but crush high end dungeons and raids. Basically you cannot challenge anything at upper range of your skills/gear while having to worry about ganking problems before you can finish the boss fight.
Its been a while since I been on these forums due to my divorce but I would like to jump in here and reply to the OP.
We need to get away from the Themepark end game grind. That is driving many players out of the MMORPG genera all together because it ends up being nothing more than a treadmill. Players today see this and are tired of it.
So we need to find a middle ground between Raiding and Grinding for gear as PVE content and PVE content that you do for another purpose. For example in UO (Which I started playing i n 1998) I used my bard to control the Shadow Wyrm room or took and provoked Blood Elementals to fight Balrons. I didnt do this for the gear these monsters dropped. I did it for the gold. I did sell the items that these monsters dropped but that was so I could get gold so I could have a larger house, or so I could buy materials for my crafter. The Sole focus was not on Gear Progression, it was on what else can I do in the world.
I think that's where Ashes has to go because the Raiding Gear Treadmill is now to the point that bores people to death. If I want to raid I would be playing FFXIV right now, I dont. I would rather play an MMORPG that gives me dozens of Dungeons both instanced and open world that I can play the content for goal, or crafting mats, or items that I can sell for gold. I do not want to spend hundreds of hours grinding gear, nor do I want to spend a few hours grinding stones to buy gear.
You can't be all things to all people you would end up with just a hot mess. OK, we will use WoW as a ruler simply because of the numbers (age/player base) there are millions of players that don't raid, they enjoy crafting, pet battles, RP, farming old content for transmog. Keeping all content (old and new) relevant is the challenge, the $$ invested in creating a zone should not be lost due to player base out leveling it. Having crafted items on par with top tier gear would be a good start, having materials in all zones stay relevant to professions would keep people out in all the areas and having "Easter eggs"(treasure chests, adversaries, quest for adversaries that reward treasure chests, etc.) randomly spawn would make it even more of interest. Something that many games are finding is that really good visuals (spell effects, gear) can overpower game play, people would rather look good than be good (why cosmetics are in every cash shop). Lastly, the social nature of MMOs. While guilds are important and seem to be more so in AoC they tend to be instruments of exclusion rather than inclusion, human nature being as it is guild leaders tend to for cliques and too much power is never good for those not in the insider group, people should be able to experience as much of the game as feasible solo which may sound counter to the idea of an MMO but is the preferred play style for many, interacting/grouping with others should be optional for a majority of the content.
@frlindse Well that style of game play (solo play) is because of how a lot of the previous mmo's trained the player base. With Ashes it looks like that want to make it a focus on the social aspects of the game and we have yet to see how successful this is going to be post launch.
This is a player driven world so even if you are at a level 6 node you will still have to defend it and maintain it not just from other palyers but from let say a winter dragon that makes a huge blizzard in your zone that will be there until you kill.
In other words there will be events for you to be in not just well I completed top tier dungeoun so I am done with this expansion.
Even when you have completed that one world raid boss you will still have others to do. So rip down those city's and build then else where to get them
But that couldmean the rare materials needed to craft whatever that boss drops would no longer be available so you would be unable to over-enchant or repair the gear you obtained. I'm kind of hoping this is the case so there isn't an incentive to tear down our own cities.
@greek Ashes is going to be a little weird with end game. I believe the core "end game PvE community ironically will be the ones pushing mass PvP on each server. Solely to change things up and potentially open up new zones/raids.
I am worried about the number of available dungeons (instanced or otherwise), and the size and number of raid encounters available for PvE focused players. I'm a player that has no issue in smacking some other players heads if there's something in it for me (Archeage), although you won't find me in an honor farm like World of Warcraft. So I think AoC's philosophy there is spot on. The dungeon art (sneakpeeks) have been drool worthy. I really am begging for as many dungeons as possible, because let's face it, outside a good bit of RP, the dungeon delves are always the best for any serious RPG'er. Steven even mentioned realm specific times (speed of clear) /achievements (server firsts) and other traceable data he would like to be in the game - I assume in something similar to what WoW does with it's M+ system. Although ofc, not that whole key nonsense. Just a real dungeon delve with a whole lot of stuff to kill, and a whole lot of bosses. I know most MMOs have moved on to the 4-5 man dungeons, with like a 10-30 minute clear time. I would love to see some more meat in dungeons, with longer time commitment involved, especially as eight of us have had to form and trek our a$$es all the way to the instance. Raids, we know there will be some, but we have no idea the scope (trash mobs/story background) and boss numbers per instance that would be available. It's also a weird dynamic, because a lot of content will be locked from just the natural growth of the world. Which in turn would force players to engage in conflict to open up new stuff. Although that content will not be seen by many for a long time. AoC is a VERY ambitious project, and only time will tell how much we'll see at release. I just hope that the transparency and community involvement continues so that the game continues to grow with it's players input. I also hope, that many, many players join in through all those growing pains. A game of this magnitude will take many years and continual updates to appease any player base. I believe the team has the direction and expertise to deliver, but I'm not without trepidation.
I think the issue is not the lack of end game content it is the speed at which you get to end game. The only games that hold my interest for years are ones where it takes years to get to end game. And even then as the player-base starts to catch up, you can open new areas and increase the level cap with expansions.
Player A : Reaches level cap, citizen of a thriving node, this node has a good available raid which was unlocked at its current stage. Player A really wants an item from the raid so player A does raid over and over again. Players A's guild also wants nice raid items so Player A helps guild and others through the raids over and over again...
End-game? Not quite?
Step 1. Player B (also reaches level cap) doesn't like raids but likes gathering! Player B is a citizen of another node and wants their node to level up to get gathering bonuses etc. Players B node can't level up because Players A node prevents it. Player B rally's up the nodes fellow gatherers who also want node progress to declare a siege on Players A node!
Step 2. Players A node is under siege! Oh no! Player A still likes raid and many citizens still don't have all the loot! Player A needs to stop raiding to defend node! If Player A doesn't defend Player A might have their node delevel! Delevel means no current raid *gasp*
Step 3. Battle commence! Passionate citizens of each node are trying their best at everything to defend/delevel this node! Who wins!
Step 4. Because I'm player B ~ yeaaaaay Player Bs succeed! Players B node can level up and juicy gathering bonuses are achievable! Player As raid is lost! ;(
Step 5. Player A really likes raiding but local raid is gone. Player A can travel to other raids but takes a lot of time. Maybe Player A goes and claims citizenship at another node with a local raid OR revenge! It may take some time for the Siege CDs but Player As node unties and prepares to take revenge on Player Bs node!
This is how I imagine it to be and that's why there is no "end game". The world won't be static whether you want it to be or not. The influence from other players will be great. To me this is more exciting than a static end game.
So PVP is priority over PVE? This right here will be "camp" bully heaven. I can see a bunch of elite PVPs brigand-ing aroung "deleveling"everyone to the point where the game will only be left with those "elite PVP" players. Is what you said really how the game "will" be, or how you want it to be? Seriously? Maybe this game isn't for me then. I was actually about to buy the $150 package. This post has deterred me for sure.
So PVP is priority over PVE? This right here will be "camp" bully heaven. I can see a bunch of elite PVPs brigand-ing aroung "deleveling"everyone to the point where the game will only be left with those "elite PVP" players. Is what you said really how the game "will" be, or how you want it to be? Seriously? Maybe this game isn't for me then. I was actually about to buy the $150 package. This post has deterred me for sure.
@Loosid this is not the case, PvP will drive change, and I imagine many PvE players will be driving this change to unlock different and new content through sieges of high level nodes that are effectively "blocking" other nodes from unlocking content. If you are strictly a PvE player and are not interested in random PvP, and someone attacks you, you don't retaliate and just bite the bullet - you receive no XP loss and the other player receives corruption. Corruption reduces their XP/stats and allows them to show up for bounty hunters that is part of a PvP focused node at like lvl 4 or 5, I forget.
There will be plenty of PvE content throughout the world, it will be mashed alongside meaningful PvP - and random gankfests/griefing will be deterred. Through things such as the corruption mechanic.
So PVP is priority over PVE? This right here will be "camp" bully heaven. I can see a bunch of elite PVPs brigand-ing aroung "deleveling"everyone to the point where the game will only be left with those "elite PVP" players. Is what you said really how the game "will" be, or how you want it to be? Seriously? Maybe this game isn't for me then. I was actually about to buy the $150 package. This post has deterred me for sure.
@Loosid this is not the case, PvP will drive change, and I imagine many PvE players will be driving this change to unlock different and new content through sieges of high level nodes that are effectively "blocking" other nodes from unlocking content. If you are strictly a PvE player and are not interested in random PvP, and someone attacks you, you don't retaliate and just bite the bullet - you receive no XP loss and the other player receives corruption. Corruption reduces their XP/stats and allows them to show up for bounty hunters that is part of a PvP focused node at like lvl 4 or 5, I forget.
There will be plenty of PvE content throughout the world, it will be mashed alongside meaningful PvP - and random gankfests/griefing will be deterred. Through things such as the corruption mechanic.
This is incorrect. If you don't defend yourself you lose twice the amount of exp as being purple and you can drop collected resources.
Corruption also doesn't cause you to lose any exp until you are killed. However it is on a higher multiplier than remaining green.
Combatant (purple) is your baseline exp loss Non combatant (green) is x2 Corrupted (red) I believe is x4.
None of this is final and will need review and testing. The pvp in ashes has been closely compared to the karma system in lineage.
Comments
- The term " Endgame " will not exists in this MMO. Rather, it will be a core-concept that'll be focused throughout the entirety of the MMO
In other words, Intrepid Devs have already thought it out. Endgame is always something Players experience at the end of a game .... more commonly seen in ThemePark MMOs. Instead, the " endgame " experience will be integral & interconnected within the core of the game itself and *so much* moreThus, given a better overall MMO experience - how it was supposed to be
EDIT: Mr. Jeffery Bard said something (similar) to this in a Pre-Alpha LiveStream. Think it was sometime in May ? Not too sure. But I am certain that this was said before
Thats a very narrow-minded perspective of " endgame ". if you think endgame = raids ,,, then i feel bad for you and hope you see why the term won't fit. But i guess i can't blame you
If you want this to be better, then you got to stop comparing it to how other MMOs did their thing ... otherwise its going to be another clone
I realize that the sense we won't know how to open raids, and which nodes will open it, that raiders will probably do things such as dungeons, node leveling, and other parts of the game until some server unlocks a raid.
@Eragale
To be clear that is not what I want. I also have many things I want to do in this game. This thread isn't about those things. This thread is for 6-7 months down the line will there be stuff to do other than farm materials and PvP. The reason many people consider WoW 'The King' is because it is the most successful MMORPG in the history of the genre, not taking anything from what WoW has done is a mistake. MMOs improve by 'stealing' other ideas from other MMOs, WoW has done FFXIV has done, ArcheAge did it. It is just part of this industry. I bring up what many gamers do, and that is what is fun for them. Not everyone cares about how they look, or the lore behind the game. Not comparing MMOs is like saying don't listen to history, and to be cliché, 'Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'
While I love end game raiding I don’t really think it’s a good idea for everyone. I hate being forced into pointless pvp like the pvpers hate being forced in to raids. Neither of us cares to be forced into farming gold for gear either(think archeage trade runs). So while I would love to see end game raids I love to see options more. I can raid / adventure for my gear/stuff . Someone else can pvp for theirs and someone else can mine,farm,craft and gold farm for theirs. So no end game please I like to see a game world where players are not forced to support others play styles to advance.
As for your idea of George Santayana quote that is wrong and historians all generally agree history never repeats as the context is always different. Hilarious when the U.S Army ask for lessons learned to compare Vietnam and Afghanistan, but they have different contexts because of the different time periods.
For the mmo comparison is a bit silly to be used as history considering that mmo's are flavors. Wildstar tried to focus heavy into the pve and Eve Online pvp which are the extremes of both ends of the spectrum and it depends on what you like. Others have said it well, that everyone perception of what their end game is going to be different and this studio is making the right call of offering variety to all players.
This game is going to be way more fluid/dynamic.
We need to get away from the Themepark end game grind. That is driving many players out of the MMORPG genera all together because it ends up being nothing more than a treadmill. Players today see this and are tired of it.
So we need to find a middle ground between Raiding and Grinding for gear as PVE content and PVE content that you do for another purpose. For example in UO (Which I started playing i n 1998) I used my bard to control the Shadow Wyrm room or took and provoked Blood Elementals to fight Balrons. I didnt do this for the gear these monsters dropped. I did it for the gold. I did sell the items that these monsters dropped but that was so I could get gold so I could have a larger house, or so I could buy materials for my crafter. The Sole focus was not on Gear Progression, it was on what else can I do in the world.
I think that's where Ashes has to go because the Raiding Gear Treadmill is now to the point that bores people to death. If I want to raid I would be playing FFXIV right now, I dont. I would rather play an MMORPG that gives me dozens of Dungeons both instanced and open world that I can play the content for goal, or crafting mats, or items that I can sell for gold. I do not want to spend hundreds of hours grinding gear, nor do I want to spend a few hours grinding stones to buy gear.
In other words there will be events for you to be in not just well I completed top tier dungeoun so I am done with this expansion.
I am worried about the number of available dungeons (instanced or otherwise), and the size and number of raid encounters available for PvE focused players. I'm a player that has no issue in smacking some other players heads if there's something in it for me (Archeage), although you won't find me in an honor farm like World of Warcraft. So I think AoC's philosophy there is spot on.
The dungeon art (sneakpeeks) have been drool worthy. I really am begging for as many dungeons as possible, because let's face it, outside a good bit of RP, the dungeon delves are always the best for any serious RPG'er. Steven even mentioned realm specific times (speed of clear) /achievements (server firsts) and other traceable data he would like to be in the game - I assume in something similar to what WoW does with it's M+ system. Although ofc, not that whole key nonsense. Just a real dungeon delve with a whole lot of stuff to kill, and a whole lot of bosses. I know most MMOs have moved on to the 4-5 man dungeons, with like a 10-30 minute clear time. I would love to see some more meat in dungeons, with longer time commitment involved, especially as eight of us have had to form and trek our a$$es all the way to the instance.
Raids, we know there will be some, but we have no idea the scope (trash mobs/story background) and boss numbers per instance that would be available. It's also a weird dynamic, because a lot of content will be locked from just the natural growth of the world. Which in turn would force players to engage in conflict to open up new stuff. Although that content will not be seen by many for a long time.
AoC is a VERY ambitious project, and only time will tell how much we'll see at release. I just hope that the transparency and community involvement continues so that the game continues to grow with it's players input. I also hope, that many, many players join in through all those growing pains. A game of this magnitude will take many years and continual updates to appease any player base.
I believe the team has the direction and expertise to deliver, but I'm not without trepidation.
There will be plenty of PvE content throughout the world, it will be mashed alongside meaningful PvP - and random gankfests/griefing will be deterred. Through things such as the corruption mechanic.
Corruption also doesn't cause you to lose any exp until you are killed. However it is on a higher multiplier than remaining green.
Combatant (purple) is your baseline exp loss
Non combatant (green) is x2
Corrupted (red) I believe is x4.
None of this is final and will need review and testing. The pvp in ashes has been closely compared to the karma system in lineage.