This is incorrect. If you don't defend yourself you lose twice the amount of exp as being purple and you can drop collected resources.
Corruption also doesn't cause you to lose any exp until you are killed. However it is on a higher multiplier than remaining green. Combatant (purple) is your baseline exp loss Non combatant (green) is x2 Corrupted (red) I believe is x4.
None of this is final and will need review and testing. The pvp in ashes has been closely compared to the karma system in lineage.
So forced PVP? Having forced PVP, there is no deterrent for elite pvp players from wrecking havoc. This is because a forced PVP system is an enabler of this habit, thus preventing it is impossible because its a mechanic. I know a lot of people are going to like this game in that form and if thats the way its designed and there is a target audience, then i am fine with it., I just wont play. I just don't want to be sold on, "this is going back to the roots of MMOs". Its not that I can't PVP, its that I generally do not get along with the bully attitude that PVPers have towards others.
I really haven't been on the forum long, I haven't had the time to consume all the news of this game. Many of you have probably been here since the start so you understand the game better than I do. I was attracted to the fact that this was supposed to be a game that brought back that old school feeling of MMOs. It should be noted up front that this IS a PVP oriented game, that way people like myself do not have to waste our time.
I hope the game succeeds and you guys have years of fun playing it. I'll continue to wait for the next great old school MMO.
So PVP is priority over PVE? This right here will be "camp" bully heaven. I can see a bunch of elite PVPs brigand-ing aroung "deleveling"everyone to the point where the game will only be left with those "elite PVP" players. Is what you said really how the game "will" be, or how you want it to be? Seriously? Maybe this game isn't for me then. I was actually about to buy the $150 package. This post has deterred me for sure.
@Loosid this is not the case, PvP will drive change, and I imagine many PvE players will be driving this change to unlock different and new content through sieges of high level nodes that are effectively "blocking" other nodes from unlocking content. If you are strictly a PvE player and are not interested in random PvP, and someone attacks you, you don't retaliate and just bite the bullet - you receive no XP loss and the other player receives corruption. Corruption reduces their XP/stats and allows them to show up for bounty hunters that is part of a PvP focused node at like lvl 4 or 5, I forget.
There will be plenty of PvE content throughout the world, it will be mashed alongside meaningful PvP - and random gankfests/griefing will be deterred. Through things such as the corruption mechanic.
This is incorrect. If you don't defend yourself you lose twice the amount of exp as being purple and you can drop collected resources.
Corruption also doesn't cause you to lose any exp until you are killed. However it is on a higher multiplier than remaining green.
Combatant (purple) is your baseline exp loss Non combatant (green) is x2 Corrupted (red) I believe is x4.
None of this is final and will need review and testing. The pvp in ashes has been closely compared to the karma system in lineage.
Thanks for the clarification Argent, agreed not final, hopefully it will build a long way from Lineage's eastern PvP model. Without changes to be more inclusive for filthy casuals (many in the Western market) that don't wish to engage in PvP and just enjoy an immersive world, sticking solely to this system will do more harm than good.
Steven has frequently touted this AoC will be casual/RP/PvE friendly and players won't be forced into PvP if they don't wish to. So we'll watch this space.
This is incorrect. If you don't defend yourself you lose twice the amount of exp as being purple and you can drop collected resources.
Corruption also doesn't cause you to lose any exp until you are killed. However it is on a higher multiplier than remaining green. Combatant (purple) is your baseline exp loss Non combatant (green) is x2 Corrupted (red) I believe is x4.
None of this is final and will need review and testing. The pvp in ashes has been closely compared to the karma system in lineage.
So forced PVP? Having forced PVP, there is no deterrent for elite pvp players from wrecking havoc. This is because a forced PVP system is an enabler of this habit, thus preventing it is impossible because its a mechanic. I know a lot of people are going to like this game in that form and if thats the way its designed and there is a target audience, then i am fine with it., I just wont play. I just don't want to be sold on, "this is going back to the roots of MMOs". Its not that I can't PVP, its that I generally do not get along with the bully attitude that PVPers have towards others.
I really haven't been on the forum long, I haven't had the time to consume all the news of this game. Many of you have probably been here since the start so you understand the game better than I do. I was attracted to the fact that this was supposed to be a game that brought back that old school feeling of MMOs. It should be noted up front that this IS a PVP oriented game, that way people like myself do not have to waste our time.
I hope the game succeeds and you guys have years of fun playing it. I'll continue to wait for the next great old school MMO.
I really don't believe that this game will launch using a 2003 eastern PvP model, Steven has MANY times said that the game will be friendly for players that don't want to engage in PvP, RP'ers and other filthy casuals that often make up most of the Western MMO player base. This game is still in early development, there are no set PvP mechanics in Ashes as of yet, although, others are right it is deriving from Lineage 2, and games like Archeage, but where it ends up? Who knows. I would watch and see how this game balances to get the best of PvP and PvE without alienating players from it's subscription base.
@Argentdawn you left out that corruption lowers your stats/xp gain, so although you aren't punished in terms of xp lost, you no longer gain it as fast and you will eventually lose so many combat stats that any scrub will be able to kill you.
Even when you have completed that one world raid boss you will still have others to do. So rip down those city's and build then else where to get them
But that couldmean the rare materials needed to craft whatever that boss drops would no longer be available so you would be unable to over-enchant or repair the gear you obtained. I'm kind of hoping this is the case so there isn't an incentive to tear down our own cities.
The thing I would like to see about this is you could have those pieces of armor or weapons that because they are so rare and hard / impossible to repair that they may just get stashed away and brought out for certain circumstances. Having that be a thing and having those moments where you recognize it and can be like, "Owe my god he brought the Death Blade 5000 to the rumble. This is about to go down!"
@Argentdawn you left out that corruption lowers your stats/xp gain, so although you aren't punished in terms of xp lost, you no longer gain it as fast and you will eventually lose so many combat stats that any scrub will be able to kill you.
Corrupted players in Lineage:
A character is Chaotic when that character’s Reputation level is negative.
A Chaotic character’s name appears in red.
Every PK a Chaotic character performs gains that character a negative Reputation point.
When hunting and completing quests, Chaotic characters do not gain XP or SP, but they do gain Reputation points. This is the only way Chaotic characters can gain Reputation points. When a character is no longer Chaotic (when that character’s Reputation level reaches zero), hunting and completing quests give XP and SP but not Reputation points.
If a Chaotic character dies, that character’s Reputation points are not affected.
If a Chaotic character has a PK count of 31 or higher, the character receives an item drop penalty. As part of this penalty, augmented weapons will drop without the augmentation.
When a Chaotic character dies, that character loses more XP than a non-Chaotic character does.
Ultimately @ Loosid, AoC will have PvP that can happen whenever, but it has to be WORTH the risk for corruption. Generally most players won't take this risk. Also, with a game focused on community, all you need to do is call out to others about a corrupted player making your life hell and the community will fix the issue. Griefing and Ganking is a bane on any community, but this mechanic deters it, and players within a community will always step up to take care of an issue where someone is griefing. Having a system like this tho, ALLOWs meaningful PvP if it's worth it. Honestly I think it's a good system to be based from, but needs further tuning that we'll see in later testing phases (probably beta).
Well see there going to be death penalties that will punish anyone that dies green purple red, every one loses resources when thye die so since noone really likes to lose resources then not to much PVP is going on the corruption system is kind of pointless. It could be taken out of the game and people would still not pvp (in pve zones that is) cause if they die then they will get punished. Even the best pvpers die in pvp.
I do believe that Ashes will have to cater for the PvE players but I don't believe that content should be dumbed down and I also don't believe that PvP should be avoidable in the Open World. Much of the vision Intrepid has shared is rather unique to the genre and there will be plenty who say, "I don't like this because X worked well in Z" or "I don't like that because Y worked well in X", but my answer to them is, there's plenty of MMOs out there for you already. Personally, I hope Ashes will be the furthest away from WoW/LOTRO/SWTOR/ESO etc there's ever been.
I wouldn't mind end game raiding of some kind.. but it would need to be done right. Right now in WoW I sit there waiting for ques in the major city when it's not a raiding day, which is super boring. I love raid days with my guild because I'm friends with them and when we all get through a boss we've been working on killing for a while, it's really enjoyable.
With that said, that type of game-play is in every MMO right now so if they could make end game enjoyable but different then I would be game. I guess we need to know just how much attention we're going to need to put towards node development even at later levels, what all the rewards will be for putting in that attention, how all the professions are going to be implemented as far as their importance, etc. I don't want the leet gear I'm going to craft to be just for looks, I want to blow-up some high level mobs.
I have an opposite view in that I think the *only* way future games can thrive is precisely by NOT having an end-game state.
If for no other reason than you believe "combat" to be the default first-class activity, ignoring politics, economy, etc. I don't think games can thrive like that anymore.
Take the dungeon we saw on the stream the other day... are you really asking for more of that - more of running around a room killing mobs and their buddy doesn't react standing 20 feet away? That gameplay is old and tired and needs to die. Why would we want more of it when as you stated we've played it for... 20 years already?
I don't mean to come off too harsh, so apologies if I sound that way. I just don't want players to keep asking for the same game, devs to keep giving them the same game, and people keep leaving for the same reasons.
@Zastro@Greek I believe that many people, who like MMORPG, are tired of static and
repetitive things, and having a game that react to our action sound like a great symphony to my hears. I agree that having challenge its an important part of the game, and raiding usualy is part of it. Also leveling and having sense of dangers, that anything can happen during the questing is something that im looking for in game, its give us some challenge and feel rewarding, if we get trought it. I Agree that some content should be work hard to get access to it. And I also think that AoC is trying to build a great community of gamers, something that WoW forgot, and it was core idea of MMORPG in my own opinion
@Zastro@Greek I believe that many people, who like MMORPG, are tired of static and
repetitive things, and having a game that react to our action sound like a great symphony to my hears. I agree that having challenge its an important part of the game, and raiding usualy is part of it. Also leveling and having sense of dangers, that anything can happen during the questing is something that im looking for in game, its give us some challenge and feel rewarding, if we get trought it. I Agree that some content should be work hard to get access to it. And I also think that AoC is trying to build a great community of gamers, something that WoW forgot, and it was core idea of MMORPG in my own opinion.
I have an opposite view in that I think the *only* way future games can thrive is precisely by NOT having an end-game state.
If for no other reason than you believe "combat" to be the default first-class activity, ignoring politics, economy, etc. I don't think games can thrive like that anymore.
Take the dungeon we saw on the stream the other day... are you really asking for more of that - more of running around a room killing mobs and their buddy doesn't react standing 20 feet away? That gameplay is old and tired and needs to die. Why would we want more of it when as you stated we've played it for... 20 years already?
I don't mean to come off too harsh, so apologies if I sound that way. I just don't want players to keep asking for the same game, devs to keep giving them the same game, and people keep leaving for the same reasons.
I can't say numbers or percentages because honestly there would be no validity to it... However "end game" content isn't a bad thing. I leave most games because they start to feel to easy. There are many people, myself included, that enjoy a challenge and will beat our heads against mechanics until we beat it... Then do timed runs... World firsts... Etc.
People by nature are competitive and the political aspect won't cater to many as only one person can "lead" a node or castle that leaves 9 (maybe) slots on a *monthly* rotation. Yes that will draw the attention of group but in the end either your going to a) play more than anyone else b) be better at pvp than anyone else c) have more money than anyone else or d) be a leader of a pvp capable guild and that will get you the spot.
I'm not saying raiding should be the only "end game" or we should even think about raiding in the conventional way. With the node system for a few weeks we can see 1 boss in this node, 2 in that node and none in node 3 we can pick and choose what we want to do with what's available. But we still need challenging content that we can be competitive with.
Also random thought. I hope the dungeons are expansive, non linear and take a long time to fully explore.
I can't say numbers or percentages because honestly there would be no validity to it... However "end game" content isn't a bad thing. I leave most games because they start to feel to easy. There are many people, myself included, that enjoy a challenge and will beat our heads against mechanics until we beat it... Then do timed runs... World firsts... Etc.
People by nature are competitive and the political aspect won't cater to many as only one person can "lead" a node or castle that leaves 9 (maybe) slots on a *monthly* rotation. Yes that will draw the attention of group but in the end either your going to a) play more than anyone else b) be better at pvp than anyone else c) have more money than anyone else or d) be a leader of a pvp capable guild and that will get you the spot.
I'm not saying raiding should be the only "end game" or we should even think about raiding in the conventional way. With the node system for a few weeks we can see 1 boss in this node, 2 in that node and none in node 3 we can pick and choose what we want to do with what's available. But we still need challenging content that we can be competitive with.
Also random thought. I hope the dungeons are expansive, non linear and take a long time to fully explore.
I've played almost every MMO since I started with UO and EQ in '99. The ones that fall flat the fastest lack two things. Challenge, and end game content. Most newer ones lack both. I don't have the time I did 20 years ago to raid, so what? I can either raid or I can't, doesn't mean the content shouldn't exist simply because I can't participate in it.
That's part of the problem, players think they're entitled to do 100% of the content. Most of the time with the thought that they can remain a mediocre player and the content should scale down to their personal skill level to allow them to complete it. Players thinking that 95% of the player base should be able to access 100% of the content a game has to offer.
If there is something that pushes me to improve either my character or my player skills then I continue to play until I reach that goal. And that was always the case with earlier games, hardcore raiders had content they wanted to get locked down, they improved themselves, their teams, their characters, until they locked that content down which pushed the release of new content. Those raiders pushed and drove the economy, they were there as a measuring stick for the next group of players who wanted to be raiders. This second group tried to improve themselves to reach that mark, they spent time in the game to do so. Those top two groups don't make up the largest portion of the player base, but they are a keystone.
When you dumb them down where the only thing that matters is the level you reach or the gear score you acquire then there is no drive. When the top level of players quit because it's too easy, and then the second layer quits because they have no goals to reach. You're left with casuals who think they're the best thing ever because the game has dumbed itself down to their level, OR you have a game built solely around PvP. PvP games are short lived.
No one wants the same end game content from 20 years ago, but they need more than the end game content (or lack of) from the past 10 years.
I've played almost every MMO since I started with UO and EQ in '99. The ones that fall flat the fastest lack two things. Challenge, and end game content. Most newer ones lack both. I don't have the time I did 20 years ago to raid, so what? I can either raid or I can't, doesn't mean the content shouldn't exist simply because I can't participate in it.
That's part of the problem, players think they're entitled to do 100% of the content. Most of the time with the thought that they can remain a mediocre player and the content should scale down to their personal skill level to allow them to complete it. Players thinking that 95% of the player base should be able to access 100% of the content a game has to offer.
If there is something that pushes me to improve either my character or my player skills then I continue to play until I reach that goal. And that was always the case with earlier games, hardcore raiders had content they wanted to get locked down, they improved themselves, their teams, their characters, until they locked that content down which pushed the release of new content. Those raiders pushed and drove the economy, they were there as a measuring stick for the next group of players who wanted to be raiders. This second group tried to improve themselves to reach that mark, they spent time in the game to do so. Those top two groups don't make up the largest portion of the player base, but they are a keystone.
When you dumb them down where the only thing that matters is the level you reach or the gear score you acquire then there is no drive. When the top level of players quit because it's too easy, and then the second layer quits because they have no goals to reach. You're left with casuals who think they're the best thing ever because the game has dumbed itself down to their level, OR you have a game built solely around PvP. PvP games are short lived.
No one wants the same end game content from 20 years ago, but they need more than the end game content (or lack of) from the past 10 years.
I think the problem is the raiding for gear model all together. I think its time we cut away from you go to X raid instance 4 times a week for 4 hours for gear. Only to get on the treadmill again after you just cleared that raid instance. Honestly if I wanted that I would just play classic WOW when it comes out.
I would like to see more of a SWG/UO mind set where you kill tough monsters with friends that drop crafting enhancements that can make your crafted gear a ton better. This can be put in an open world dungeon, or a world boss. You can even put it in an instanced dungeon that requires teamwork and skill to complete. I think the raiding to gear is just model that needs to go. A 8 man group dungeon is one thing because you can put all kinds of stuff in dungeons because its not hard to get 8 people together. Getting 40 or more is, this requires the carrot and stick model.
As long as people want to be 'better' than everyone else instead of 'different'....the MMO genre will always fail (vertical vs horizontal progression). This is a multiplayer game and not a single player game. God mode can not exist in a multiplayer game of peers so vertical progression can not exist in a game of peers. When was the last time you see a game where every bonus came with penalties ? Not lately because entitlement, power and greed is more important than balance.
So instead you need progression to drive people into niches and become unique while also remaining a valuable asset at all times. This means the original build is just as potent as all builds that come after. aka balance enables parity between new and old players, but that doesnt suit power crazed veterans who feel they are entitled to slay noobs because they have been here longer (hence levelling and gear grind). Not many games exist that are truly hybrid friendly and are instead flooded with FoTM or Meta builds instead. They destroy the viability of 'the many' to enable the viability of 'the few'. Not by skill but by privilege (entitlement). Then play people off against each other which suits the 'competitive' types fine. Because they become winners and winning means the losers leave until they have no one left to compete with. Great. You won the game. Enjoy the loneliness.
Secondly saying everyone is competitive is a propaganda and prejudice used to drive an agenda. Many people would rather collaborate than compete, which is the direct opposite. Neither is being competitive the same thing as liking a challenge. So you would do well to keep them apart. Just because I like to test and improve my own abilities does not mean I desire to be better than everyone else.
The idea of an MMO is for people to play together. If you put up a wall and say only X can do that content then you deny people the option to play together and turn what was full collaboration into smaller and smaller puddles of community. You go from community to cliques. You end up with what we have now. A gluttony of MMO games that are solo or small group play where those groups get ever smaller and isolated from each other until they are literally playing 'their own' isolated game within the game instead of the same game.
Dungeon difficulty is also subjective. For people who have bad memories, they will not be able to recall what tumblers have to be put in the right place at what time to undo the puzzle box that is the modern dungeon. That is not testing a players understanding of their own build or maximising its ability. Nor is it understanding the capabilities of their team mates to work in harmony with their skills and optimise their teamwork. Its is merely testing a players ability to defeat the puzzle box. Once its script is known, any player can beat the content. All you are in effect doing, is memorising and acting out a play, not testing your combat skill in any really meaningful way.
For dungeons to get permanently challenging and reusable. They must not become knowable. They must instead collate and test the skills that each group member possesses both individually or as a collection. The boss must tune itself to the strengths and weaknesses of each group it faces. That boss can get more difficult in two ways. 1. increasing the anti-group skill set it deploys to make it more unpredictable. 2. Constantly evaluate the TTK of the group and the boss to keep the contest on a knife edge but not overwhelming nor underwhelming. Its this latter tuning ability that can be used to determine how hard the content actually was according to the energy expended and reward should come in accordance with that. But not awards that deny content.
Role playing games demand you can play any role. Not just the roles that are viable.
As long as people want to be 'better' than everyone else instead of 'different'....the MMO genre will always fail (vertical vs horizontal progression). This is a multiplayer game and not a single player game. God mode can not exist in a multiplayer game of peers so vertical progression can not exist in a game of peers. When was the last time you see a game where every bonus came with penalties ? Not lately because entitlement, power and greed is more important than balance.
This is exactly why I dont want to see WOW like raiding. While it was very fun in the first 4 to 6 years of WOW. The Raid Treadmill gets really old really fast. I do think we need gear and items that are better than others, but I think of it more like SWG gear where skilled crafters can craft really good gear. But that gear is not permanent it should Decay and break to the point it needs to be replaced. So power of a single player should change based on the situation.
No. Sorry but making a game with end game content will create a game that is all about the end game content. You play WOW so you know this to be true. AoC is a game about conquest and building with bits of PVE thrown in. I know WOW sucks now but lets not push AoC down that road. BFA will be out before you know it and you can get your end game fix there.
We're in brand new territory in that each server will be different and that the focus will be on player run organizations that have actual structures in the world, with a focus on acquiring more people to become citizens of the towns that they are a part of.
Some people will NOT want to PVP, and be involved in PVE. Some will want to PVP exclusively and you will have others who are fine with both.
The outcome here is that the game will have to have elements of both. The "End Game PVE" content will be dungeons and encounters that will help gear players to become involved in PVP. I highly doubt there will be the raiding mentality that is prevalent in WoW, and it will more likely be what you see in a game like ArcheAge--PVE raiding to shore up PVP activities.
It's also quite likely there will be a matching amount of content that could be PVPed over--world dragons, bosses that groups could take down, but could be contested by others as well.
Comments
Non-combatant is your baseline exp loss
Combatant is x1/2
Corrupted is x4
I really haven't been on the forum long, I haven't had the time to consume all the news of this game. Many of you have probably been here since the start so you understand the game better than I do. I was attracted to the fact that this was supposed to be a game that brought back that old school feeling of MMOs. It should be noted up front that this IS a PVP oriented game, that way people like myself do not have to waste our time.
I hope the game succeeds and you guys have years of fun playing it. I'll continue to wait for the next great old school MMO.
Steven has frequently touted this AoC will be casual/RP/PvE friendly and players won't be forced into PvP if they don't wish to. So we'll watch this space.
I would watch and see how this game balances to get the best of PvP and PvE without alienating players from it's subscription base.
Ultimately @ Loosid, AoC will have PvP that can happen whenever, but it has to be WORTH the risk for corruption. Generally most players won't take this risk. Also, with a game focused on community, all you need to do is call out to others about a corrupted player making your life hell and the community will fix the issue. Griefing and Ganking is a bane on any community, but this mechanic deters it, and players within a community will always step up to take care of an issue where someone is griefing. Having a system like this tho, ALLOWs meaningful PvP if it's worth it. Honestly I think it's a good system to be based from, but needs further tuning that we'll see in later testing phases (probably beta).
With that said, that type of game-play is in every MMO right now so if they could make end game enjoyable but different then I would be game. I guess we need to know just how much attention we're going to need to put towards node development even at later levels, what all the rewards will be for putting in that attention, how all the professions are going to be implemented as far as their importance, etc. I don't want the leet gear I'm going to craft to be just for looks, I want to blow-up some high level mobs.
If for no other reason than you believe "combat" to be the default first-class activity, ignoring politics, economy, etc. I don't think games can thrive like that anymore.
Take the dungeon we saw on the stream the other day... are you really asking for more of that - more of running around a room killing mobs and their buddy doesn't react standing 20 feet away? That gameplay is old and tired and needs to die. Why would we want more of it when as you stated we've played it for... 20 years already?
I don't mean to come off too harsh, so apologies if I sound that way. I just don't want players to keep asking for the same game, devs to keep giving them the same game, and people keep leaving for the same reasons.
@Zastro @Greek
I believe that many people, who like MMORPG, are tired of static and
I hope to meet you in the game, peace!
@Zastro @Greek
I believe that many people, who like MMORPG, are tired of static and
Guys i hope to meet in the game, peace.
I also hope to meet you all in game, war.
People by nature are competitive and the political aspect won't cater to many as only one person can "lead" a node or castle that leaves 9 (maybe) slots on a *monthly* rotation. Yes that will draw the attention of group but in the end either your going to a) play more than anyone else b) be better at pvp than anyone else c) have more money than anyone else or d) be a leader of a pvp capable guild and that will get you the spot.
I'm not saying raiding should be the only "end game" or we should even think about raiding in the conventional way. With the node system for a few weeks we can see 1 boss in this node, 2 in that node and none in node 3 we can pick and choose what we want to do with what's available. But we still need challenging content that we can be competitive with.
Also random thought. I hope the dungeons are expansive, non linear and take a long time to fully explore.
That's part of the problem, players think they're entitled to do 100% of the content. Most of the time with the thought that they can remain a mediocre player and the content should scale down to their personal skill level to allow them to complete it. Players thinking that 95% of the player base should be able to access 100% of the content a game has to offer.
If there is something that pushes me to improve either my character or my player skills then I continue to play until I reach that goal. And that was always the case with earlier games, hardcore raiders had content they wanted to get locked down, they improved themselves, their teams, their characters, until they locked that content down which pushed the release of new content. Those raiders pushed and drove the economy, they were there as a measuring stick for the next group of players who wanted to be raiders. This second group tried to improve themselves to reach that mark, they spent time in the game to do so. Those top two groups don't make up the largest portion of the player base, but they are a keystone.
When you dumb them down where the only thing that matters is the level you reach or the gear score you acquire then there is no drive. When the top level of players quit because it's too easy, and then the second layer quits because they have no goals to reach. You're left with casuals who think they're the best thing ever because the game has dumbed itself down to their level, OR you have a game built solely around PvP. PvP games are short lived.
No one wants the same end game content from 20 years ago, but they need more than the end game content (or lack of) from the past 10 years.
I would like to see more of a SWG/UO mind set where you kill tough monsters with friends that drop crafting enhancements that can make your crafted gear a ton better. This can be put in an open world dungeon, or a world boss. You can even put it in an instanced dungeon that requires teamwork and skill to complete. I think the raiding to gear is just model that needs to go. A 8 man group dungeon is one thing because you can put all kinds of stuff in dungeons because its not hard to get 8 people together. Getting 40 or more is, this requires the carrot and stick model.
So instead you need progression to drive people into niches and become unique while also remaining a valuable asset at all times. This means the original build is just as potent as all builds that come after. aka balance enables parity between new and old players, but that doesnt suit power crazed veterans who feel they are entitled to slay noobs because they have been here longer (hence levelling and gear grind). Not many games exist that are truly hybrid friendly and are instead flooded with FoTM or Meta builds instead. They destroy the viability of 'the many' to enable the viability of 'the few'. Not by skill but by privilege (entitlement). Then play people off against each other which suits the 'competitive' types fine. Because they become winners and winning means the losers leave until they have no one left to compete with. Great. You won the game. Enjoy the loneliness.
Secondly saying everyone is competitive is a propaganda and prejudice used to drive an agenda. Many people would rather collaborate than compete, which is the direct opposite. Neither is being competitive the same thing as liking a challenge. So you would do well to keep them apart. Just because I like to test and improve my own abilities does not mean I desire to be better than everyone else.
The idea of an MMO is for people to play together. If you put up a wall and say only X can do that content then you deny people the option to play together and turn what was full collaboration into smaller and smaller puddles of community. You go from community to cliques. You end up with what we have now. A gluttony of MMO games that are solo or small group play where those groups get ever smaller and isolated from each other until they are literally playing 'their own' isolated game within the game instead of the same game.
Dungeon difficulty is also subjective. For people who have bad memories, they will not be able to recall what tumblers have to be put in the right place at what time to undo the puzzle box that is the modern dungeon. That is not testing a players understanding of their own build or maximising its ability. Nor is it understanding the capabilities of their team mates to work in harmony with their skills and optimise their teamwork. Its is merely testing a players ability to defeat the puzzle box. Once its script is known, any player can beat the content. All you are in effect doing, is memorising and acting out a play, not testing your combat skill in any really meaningful way.
For dungeons to get permanently challenging and reusable. They must not become knowable. They must instead collate and test the skills that each group member possesses both individually or as a collection. The boss must tune itself to the strengths and weaknesses of each group it faces. That boss can get more difficult in two ways. 1. increasing the anti-group skill set it deploys to make it more unpredictable. 2. Constantly evaluate the TTK of the group and the boss to keep the contest on a knife edge but not overwhelming nor underwhelming. Its this latter tuning ability that can be used to determine how hard the content actually was according to the energy expended and reward should come in accordance with that. But not awards that deny content.
Role playing games demand you can play any role. Not just the roles that are viable.
Some people will NOT want to PVP, and be involved in PVE. Some will want to PVP exclusively and you will have others who are fine with both.
The outcome here is that the game will have to have elements of both. The "End Game PVE" content will be dungeons and encounters that will help gear players to become involved in PVP. I highly doubt there will be the raiding mentality that is prevalent in WoW, and it will more likely be what you see in a game like ArcheAge--PVE raiding to shore up PVP activities.
It's also quite likely there will be a matching amount of content that could be PVPed over--world dragons, bosses that groups could take down, but could be contested by others as well.