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Lets talk about the Elephant in the room(PvP), slowly creeping up on us
ArchivedUser
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=170&v=V9ckxPpI-rY
Here is a video slightly explaining(the confusing and annoying) pvp flagging system of AoC
If you dont want to read this entire post, skip to the conclusion paragraph.
So about this PvP punishment system, how many of you have actually read/watched this thing? It sounds strange and very punishing for simply playing the game......
This system sounds, as one of the most horrific and terrible concepts i have ever heard of being developed on a game, especially one of this quality.
So basically, we have all sorts of rule sets for an open world mmo..... A green player if attacked, has to run away without attacking, to stay green.... If he chooses to fight back, hes flagged as a pvp player.....Which then gets punished equally for defending himself as the attacking player(purple or red). This from the very core makes no sense....Im constantly going to have to run away for god knows how long just to avoid flagging purple?, but ok, lets go along with this.
Then you have, players who like to PvP, for some reason lose XP, lose items, and have their efficiency get cut like HP/DMG so that basically they cant do anything in the game, even PvE content until they die, multiple times..... to lose that color tag....all for playing the game...
This has got to be one of the most convoluted and punishing systems i have ever heard of...
If you dont want players to pvp in certain zones. why not just make those certain zones not have PvP.... So we can avoid both players who want to PvP getting punished for playing the game..... and other players also forced into annoying situations of either having to PvP back or having to run away from the fight.....
Conclusion:
This system does not make any sense, this isnt just about *noob green players* or players in a starter zone.
If im a lvl 100(random lvl) in a high tier zone, and i see another player, if i attack him, now i gotta pray to gods that he fights back, and doesn't just afk, causing me to get a punishment, even though we are both lvl 100's in a high tier zone, its going to be such a hassle and annoyance constantly trying to attack someone, and hoping they dont just run away, or you will keep getting punished and soon lose items, XP and just overall punishment for playing the game...
This system needs some huge revisions done b4 majority of public can get their hands on this game, or we will see some very negative experiences from players.
Here is a video slightly explaining(the confusing and annoying) pvp flagging system of AoC
If you dont want to read this entire post, skip to the conclusion paragraph.
So about this PvP punishment system, how many of you have actually read/watched this thing? It sounds strange and very punishing for simply playing the game......
This system sounds, as one of the most horrific and terrible concepts i have ever heard of being developed on a game, especially one of this quality.
So basically, we have all sorts of rule sets for an open world mmo..... A green player if attacked, has to run away without attacking, to stay green.... If he chooses to fight back, hes flagged as a pvp player.....Which then gets punished equally for defending himself as the attacking player(purple or red). This from the very core makes no sense....Im constantly going to have to run away for god knows how long just to avoid flagging purple?, but ok, lets go along with this.
Then you have, players who like to PvP, for some reason lose XP, lose items, and have their efficiency get cut like HP/DMG so that basically they cant do anything in the game, even PvE content until they die, multiple times..... to lose that color tag....all for playing the game...
This has got to be one of the most convoluted and punishing systems i have ever heard of...
If you dont want players to pvp in certain zones. why not just make those certain zones not have PvP.... So we can avoid both players who want to PvP getting punished for playing the game..... and other players also forced into annoying situations of either having to PvP back or having to run away from the fight.....
Conclusion:
This system does not make any sense, this isnt just about *noob green players* or players in a starter zone.
If im a lvl 100(random lvl) in a high tier zone, and i see another player, if i attack him, now i gotta pray to gods that he fights back, and doesn't just afk, causing me to get a punishment, even though we are both lvl 100's in a high tier zone, its going to be such a hassle and annoyance constantly trying to attack someone, and hoping they dont just run away, or you will keep getting punished and soon lose items, XP and just overall punishment for playing the game...
This system needs some huge revisions done b4 majority of public can get their hands on this game, or we will see some very negative experiences from players.
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Comments
If you are green and get killed the punishment is worse for you if you don't fight back.
Pretty simple. This is not a pure PvP game.
It is stated that ALL players start out green... Meaning that majority of the time if i attack someone, they will be green... so that you will always get corruption, and to have PvP interaction in no way requires a game to be "PURE PVP GAME" so dont start with that.
Its beyond insane for players to have a damn guessing game on if he should attack someone who is taking his resources next to him due to fear of his enemy not fighting back and just running away, now you are left with bunch of penalties on you until you die..... Such a waste of time... Beyond insanity.
The system is supposed to encourage you to have a reason to attack someone. Whether it be because you want their resources or just don't like them, it's on you to decide if attacking them is worth the risk of gaining corruption. The system also encourages them to fight back so if they have resources.
I do agree that I don't like death being the only way to work off corruption.
This might get adjusted in Alpha, seeing as that might be the first time we get to test the system in action. If the penalizes are too great, intrepid can always turn a knob and make them less punishing.
You also have to take the PvE playerbase into consideration, where this penalty system will greatly protect them from random gankers. Sure, they will be attacked if they are running a Caravan, since the Caravan Zone is a PvP Zone and does not punish attackers. But outside Caravans, PvE players are essentially protected.
If I attack you and you just stand there and take it, why would I even kill you? The penalty is so severe, that gankers might as well just leave you if you don't retaliate, creating this sort of infinite protection from ganks.
In my opinion, a game with such a severe penalty for open world ganks cannot advertise itself as a game with Open World PvP.
Attacking a green will have pros and cons. Fighting or dying without fighting back will have pros and cons.
All about checks and balances and getting the mix right.
I'm curious how long the red flaggings last.
Dunno why you would be tracking some random green. The more immersive strategy would be to learn their adventuring patterns and wait for your rival to participate in a caravan.
You should have a solid reason for hunting your prey - beyond just wanting something to do in a high level.
By the time you reach max level, you should be hunting people who you know enjoy PvP combat.
If a player won't turn green, note that, and wait for the person to join an event where flags are disabled.
We already have a game that has almost an identical flagging concept, and that concept has failed misrebly, and that game is advertised as "open world sandbox mmo", its called Albion Online, a game that has a bunch of dead space because there are so many restrictions and beyond silly PvP protection mechanics that this game has a second name attached to it "horse riding simulator", all you do in that game aside from GvG's or special Castle events is ride a horse in hopes of fighting open world pvp, and usually wasting hours of time with no one in sight.
This AoC mechanic sounds just like Albions or very similar and its very worrisome.
Like i said before, instead of being super confusing, shady, and just convoluted about it, if you dont want certain zones having PvP in it because of how many resources are there, or maybe certain quests or bosses that will attract a lot of "noob traffic" then just simply turn off pvp there, so that you dont have people who arent neccesarily PvP players but they want to expirement with PvP, they attack couple people, get huge punishments, and never PvP again for the fear of losing XP/Lvls/Gear and tons of time wasted trying to die however many times it takes to get rid of your purple or red flag.
Very very unthought out system that has already been done, we have already seen its effects in other similar games and just has no reason to be this complex for something so simple which is open world PvP.
It's pretty clear that you don't have a good grasp of how the mechanic works.
Although, that doesn't necessarily mean you will like the mechanic once you do properly understand how it works.
Let's not even start on the idea of copse camping and such...
Everyone should play the game how they want to. If both PVPers and PVEers have stuff to do, then all should be fine. I don't see the reason for ganking people that want to be left alone. How would you feel if I broke into your home, ate your peanut butter, threw your milk in your face, then left without giving a shit? Now, if you invited me over for a party and I did that because I was drunk, then it's totally different
It's the same with ganking. PVP with those who want to PVP.
Why is it that the moment PvP gets mentioned the PvE players instantly run to their favorite words "griefing and harassing"
Basically, people here go do caravans because if you attack another player its not worth having a hassle of dealing with ridiculous penalties... Great so now i have to know when this caravan is happening, make sure im on at that time, and in the correct time zone, and can never experience the advertised "Open world" game or else i am going to get punished...
Are PvE players expecting to kill mobs endlessly without ever encountering PvP? That seems like PvE players fault for not wanting to participate in the other 50% of the game... Not the PvP players fault for attacking someone who is competing for the area of the mobs.
This system is in no way balanced just because in punishes PvP players.... Thats not balance.. thats false advertising of an open world game that limits you so much in PvP that you should never Open world pvp unless you are in a certain caravan or Siege battle....
If you want to level up and learn the basics, there should be a zone for that, but after that everyone should be fair game for everyone without so many harsh penalties that a person simply should not PvP at all for the fear of not being able to play the game normally for the next few hours b4 he gets rid of his flagging state.
This is your fault, if you dont want PvP then you are in a wrong game.. why should we cater to your wants and needs however unrealistic they are...
Everything should be risk vs reward, and being punished for killing people who are your combat lvl, and in a high tier zone is just a bad system. If you want high tier mats or mobs to kill, then its only common sense that you are trying to partake in high reward area, and there should be high risk involved in you getting ganked, in this case it would be almost impossible since you would be a green player, getting all reward with almost no risk, and thats bad design.
I first off am a huge fan of open world PVP, but don't see just random ganking as actual PvP. Ambushing caravans, raiding ships, open guild conflict, that's open world PvP. That's content for all. Jumping a random single gatherer in bum-fuck nowhere isn't really content for anyone but you.
By just randomly attacking someone without warning, giving them no time to defend themselves hardly, you're commiting what this game sees as "murder". Opposite of this would be attacking someone doing a caravan who is aware they could be attacked at some point.
I don't see why people feel they will be so restricted when all this system is doing is deincentivising you from attacking people who really can't or wont fight back and incentives are now there for this PvP to be taken to action that is helping drive content.
Now to be fair, I don't like the system, but I see it's merits. I feel it may push the active pvpers away because of this misconception we have right here. I do see the intent.
Which is why I'm waiting for the game room be out before I condemn it fully.
And yes, i do disagree with you on the part of " Jumping a random single gatherer in bum-fuck nowhere isn't really content for anyone but you."
That is open world pvp... its just small scale pvp.. what you mentioned was all ZvZ... zerg vs zerg, large scale PvP battles... Everytime PvP is mentioned people seem to think that you will have a group of 300 going around hunting 1 guy in a starter zone, lvl 50 vs lvl 1 or something of those sorts... and its simply not true....
This game is described and advertises as an OPEN WORLD mmo, meaning you have the freedom to do what you want, and that is represented by their untypical un-theme park questing, there is no reason to have such a convoluted system with such severe penalties to de-incentivize PvP.
If im a noob in the open world, and im lvl 40, i see another lvl 40 farming mobs in my area, therefor slowing down my farm, i should have all the reason to not only ATTEMPT to kill him, but he should have the notion that he can get attacked at anytime in an open world game, and not just, well see im green, and the punishments of attacking green players are so heavy that no one in their right mind will try it, better run to a caravan zone......
Risk vs Reward, being able to farm resources and mobs all day with 95% chances of being safe due to harsh PvP penalties is not balanced Risk vs Reward... Thats just Reward...
You don't understand the system and yet you seem very vocal about. You are also quick to name call.
Welcome to the community, I am sure you will be a valuable addition!
And, yeah, attack other players during caravan runs if you want to avoid the penalties from attacking people just because you want to attack other people who may not be in a mood for PvP combat.
"The other 50% of the game" can be caravan runs, sieges and monster coin events.
Rather than constant PvP.
The Ashes devs want PvP combat to be more meaningful than in other MMORPGs - to have more of a focus on the RPG part than previous MMORPGs.
PvE characters will be attacked for the resources - just not as often as they would without the Corruption system. And most people will participate in caravan runs and sieges and monster coin events in order to protect their property, resources and trade goods.
From the casual PvP perspective, the Corruption system is not enough of a deterrent.
Open world really has nothing to do with PvP combat. Open world means non-instanced.
Sandbox might be the term you are looking for with regard to freedom of PvP combat, but Ashes is a themebox; not a sandbox. And a PvX game; not a PvP game.
I've had this conversation before, the corruption system will need fine tuned so there can be risk vs reward. Kill the guy competing for the rare resource not the common resource to make the corruption worth the haul. IS isn't making your murderbox. I legitimately hope they open a server up to what you want someday but that isn't the vision they are driving for at this time. Good luck.
It's fine.
Oh well, on to the next thread.
If you want the conversation to stay on topic, i suggest you do so yourself.
First of, a max level character should not be able to attack a starting player, that should not be a thing regardless of PvP options. Second, using these insane PvP punishments to justify not having a zone for just starting out players is not an excuse for this convoluted system that has already been done almost tid for tat and has shown horrible results.
Its pretty simple, if you are lvl 50, you should not be allowed to attack a lvl 10, there should be some sort of protection period for lvls that are too far apart instead of just punishing everyone for the 1%er's out there..
There are plenty of great solutions and options on how to prevent unwanted PvP, all of which wont do any worse taking away anything from the "open world" concept anymore then these crazy PvP punishments that are thrown at players.
Exactly!!!