Glorious Alpha Two Testers!

Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.

Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.

Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.

Lets talk about the Elephant in the room(PvP), slowly creeping up on us

12467…22

Comments

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:

    *risk vs reward*

    Or you can just stay "green" 24/7 keep grinding and getting killed:

    1. EXP death penalty does not exist on max level, since there is no death penalty
    2. You only lose portion of your resources, so you can just keep grinding more, you will still accumulate resources since you aren't loosing all of them, while person attacking you is loosing his stats, and eventually his gear

    You win.
    Not true.
    1. EXP penalty exists at all levels
    2. If you constantly stay green and let yourself get killed, all of your gathering activities will be negated by you gear repair costs and losing materials. There is no sane reason to never fight back!
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Noaani said:
    Gothix said:
    I offered a solution where an action of gathering something flags you purple for amount of time. This would solve so many issues.

    However many people who want to come, grind 24/7 while staying green, are obviously opposed to that.
    That doesn't solve issues, that forces PvP on everyone whether they want it or not.

    That isn't what AoC is about.



    It doesn't "force" anything on you. You can chose not to gather.

    You can also chose to gather only when you see no one around, but when you do start to gather you take the RISK (vs reward) that if someone comes around he could attack you.

    What you want is reward without the risk. Getting reward by staying green, knowing no one will attack you because they don't want to lose stats and gear.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    lexmax said:

    EXP penalty exists at all levels

    What's the setback for player of exp penalty at max level?

    It has been confirmed that there is no deleveling, so any exp penalty at max level is just a "decorative stat" that means nothing to no one.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    lexmax said:

    If you constantly stay green and let yourself get killed, all of your gathering activities will be negated by you gear repair costs and losing materials. There is no sane reason to never fight back!

    You could gather naked. You do not need gear if you will not fight back. This negates repair expenses.

    Since you are loosing only portion of your resources, you still accumulate them, only at slower pace.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:

    *risk vs reward*

    Or you can just stay "green" 24/7 keep grinding and getting killed:

    1. EXP death penalty does not exist on max level, since there is no deleveling
    2. You only lose portion of your resources, so you can just keep grinding more, you will still accumulate resources since you aren't loosing all of them, while person attacking you is loosing his stats, and eventually his gear

    You win.
    Definitely "portion".

    Half?

    A quarter?

    10 percent?

    And how likely is a person who doesn't want to PvP going to come back to the spot they were killed?

    I don't think you can adduma your assumption is accurate without being able to define these.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    Gothix said:

    It doesn't "force" anything on you. You can chose not to gather.

    So, you want to make it so gathering resources is an activity that is only for PvP players?

    Since most PvP players want to spend their time PvP'ing rather than picking flowers, I can see that really quickly tanking the economy of the game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Noaani said:
    Gothix said:

    It doesn't "force" anything on you. You can chose not to gather.

    So, you want to make it so gathering resources is an activity that is only for PvP players?

    Since most PvP players want to spend their time PvP'ing rather than picking flowers, I can see that really quickly tanking the economy of the game.

    Yeah I knew you will not include next paragraph that I wrote, but just take first one out of context. Typical.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    Or you can just stay "green" 24/7 keep grinding and getting killed:

    1. EXP death penalty does not exist on max level, since there is no deleveling
    2. You only lose portion of your resources, so you can just keep grinding more, you will still accumulate resources since you aren't loosing all of them, while person attacking you is loosing his stats, and eventually his gear

    You win.
    Well if the portion of resources dropped is 80%+ then you just wasted a lot of time. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:

    EXP penalty exists at all levels

    What's the setback for player of exp penalty at max level?

    It has been confirmed that there is no deleveling, so any exp penalty at max level is just a "decorative stats" that means nothing to no one.
    The XP penalty is a deficit system. You don't lose a level as a result, but your stats are degraded to the point where are level 50 will end up having the stats of a level 1 if they kill enough greens.

    Killing low levels or serial murdering players is considered griefing by Intrepid. This behavior is discouraged by the flagging system.

    Ganking the occasional gather or hapless passer by on the other hand as in the example I gave earlier is a normal part of game play.

    • The choice to gather carries risks and rewards.
    • The choice to gank people carry risks and rewards.
    • The choice to not fight back when you are ganked only carries risks.
    • The choice to grief people ultimately also only carries risks.
    By this logic it's easy to see that the flagging system is designed to encourage PvP. It is designed to discourage not fighting back and also designed to discourage griefing (but not ganking!). Ganking happens for many valid reasons and is encouraged by this system. Gatherers must not be able to blithely gain reward without risk of it.

    "Carebears" as you like to call people who dont fight back, will end up realizing that the only way to actually get ahead in the game is either to team up with PvPers or learn to fight themselves, because dying while green (losing mats, gaining -ve XP and other death penalties) is not a very smart way to progress in the game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    McStackerson said:

    Well if the portion of resources dropped is 80%+ then you just wasted a lot of time. 

    Thing is, the way the Intrepid is catering to gatherers, I seriously doubt it will be anywhere that high.

    It boils down to this: punishment for getting corrupted will be several times more severe than for getting killed while green. And that ends the story, and makes people able to gather "green" and get away with it undisturbed.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    Noaani said:
    Gothix said:

    It doesn't "force" anything on you. You can chose not to gather.

    So, you want to make it so gathering resources is an activity that is only for PvP players?

    Since most PvP players want to spend their time PvP'ing rather than picking flowers, I can see that really quickly tanking the economy of the game.

    Yeah I knew you will not include next paragraph that I wrote, but just take first one out of context. Typical.
    My statement would have been the same whether I quoted your whole post or a portion of it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    lexmax said:
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:

    EXP penalty exists at all levels

    What's the setback for player of exp penalty at max level?

    It has been confirmed that there is no deleveling, so any exp penalty at max level is just a "decorative stats" that means nothing to no one.
    The XP penalty is a deficit system. You don't lose a level as a result, but your stats are degraded to the point where are level 50 will end up having the stats of a level 1 if they kill enough greens.
    ...

    You wrote an answer on corruption penalty, and not on EXP penalty for those that die green.

    "Green" gatherer that gathers naked on max level, and gets killed:

    - has no repair expenses since he wears no gear (doesn't need a gear to gather)
    - can not de level, so EXP penalty doesn't apply to him
    - as far as I know, while dying green you don't lose any stats



    So the only setback for dying green is:
    - losing a "portion" of your resources.

    While setback for playing as corrupted player is:
    - severe stats loss
    - gear loss
    - getting hunted by bounty hunters and not being able to defend yourself (attackers will remain green) without further increasing your corruption
    - getting killed by anyone because of the low stats and broken gear
    - severe repair expenses (since you are trying to fight for resources you are actually using gear)


    Please, do not try to explain to me how things are balanced. :)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    McStackerson said:

    Well if the portion of resources dropped is 80%+ then you just wasted a lot of time. 

    Thing is, the way the Intrepid is catering to gatherers, I seriously doubt it will be anywhere that high.

    It boils down to this: punishment for getting corrupted will be several times more severe than for getting killed while green. And that ends the story, and makes people able to gather "green" and get away with it undisturbed.
    Again not correct. Nothing about the flagging system caters for gatherers. If gatherers don't fight back they get more penalties than if they did fight back and they stand to lose their items:
    • Experience debt (negative experience) at twice the rate of a combatant
    • Durability loss at twice the rate of a combatant
    • Dropping a percentage of carried raw materials at twice the rate of a combatant
    And who said gatherers don't need gear? The developers have talked about gathering type items such as scythes. From this it's reasonable to assume that gathering stats could be associated with items of gear.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Noaani said:

    My statement would have been the same whether I quoted your whole post or a portion of it.

    If you actually included and read my whole statement, you would see that I didn't tell you your only choice is not to gather. But that you gonna have to be careful when to gather if you want to avoid combat.

    Or gather but take the fair risk (vs reward) that you will get challenged for those resources, while not being able to hide behind "green color".
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:
    Gothix said:
    lexmax said:

    EXP penalty exists at all levels

    What's the setback for player of exp penalty at max level?

    It has been confirmed that there is no deleveling, so any exp penalty at max level is just a "decorative stats" that means nothing to no one.
    The XP penalty is a deficit system. You don't lose a level as a result, but your stats are degraded to the point where are level 50 will end up having the stats of a level 1 if they kill enough greens.
    ...

    You wrote an answer on corruption penalty, and not on EXP penalty for those that die green.

    "Green" gatherer that gathers naked on max level, and gets killed:

    - has no repair expenses since he wears no gear (doesn't need a gear to gather)
    - can not de level, so EXP penalty doesn't apply to him
    - as far as I know, while dying green you don't lose any stats



    So the only setback for dying green is:
    - losing a "portion" of your resources.

    While setback for playing as corrupted player is:
    - severe stats loss
    - gear loss
    - getting hunted by bounty hunters and not being able to defend yourself (attackers will remain green) without further increasing your corruption
    - getting killed by anyone because of the low stats and broken gear
    - severe repair expenses (since you are trying to fight for resources you are actually using gear)


    Please, do not try to explain to me how things are balanced. :)
    Yet again incorrect! The penalties for player death are:
    I encourage you to check the sources for this information. I've provided the links above.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    Noaani said:

    My statement would have been the same whether I quoted your whole post or a portion of it.

    If you actually included and read my whole statement, you would see that I didn't tell you your only choice is not to gather. But that you gonna have to be careful when to gather if you want to avoid combat.

    Or gather but take the fair risk (vs reward) that you will get challenged for those resources, while not being able to hide behind "green color".
    All of this combined would see the majority of people that do the majority of harvesting no longer harvest, which would result in - as I said earlier - only PvP'ers harvesting.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    lexmax said:
    And who said gatherers don't need gear? The developers have talked about gathering type items such as scythes. From this it's reasonable to assume that gathering stats could be associated with items of gear.
    It could be very interesting to see how and what gear effects your stamina for running/gathering there may be other systems in place that make it so better gear allows you to farm extra resources. HERB UP :yum:
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    lexmax said:

    Yet again incorrect! The penalties for player death are:
    I encourage you to check the sources for this information. I've provided the links above.

    Come on...

    - Durability loss does not exist if you gather naked. And don't tell me your chest, pants and shirt will have gathering stats... Besides (possibly) a single specific gathering tool, you will not need anything else to gather, specially not combat gear.

    - Experience debt, you can not de level, so who cares if you have exp debt on max level (why do I feel you do not understand this issue at all)

    - Dropping "portion" of carried raw materials is the only setback out of the 3, and we do not know how "large" this portion will be. Likely small, because if it was meant to be large they might have as well included full raw material drop, without letting gatherer keep 10%...
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:

    Thing is, the way the Intrepid is catering to gatherers, I seriously doubt it will be anywhere that high.

    It boils down to this: punishment for getting corrupted will be several times more severe than for getting killed while green. And that ends the story, and makes people able to gather "green" and get away with it undisturbed.
    How are they catering to gathers? They seem to want resources to be vulnerable. Resources are at a risk when they are in caravans and are dropped as part of the death. If they were catering to gathers this wouldn't be the case. Why would the incorporate resources as part of the death penalty but make the amount dropped meaningless? 

    As i said, if the resource drop is high and they give you all their resources with some corruption it's a lose for them. You are not the only pvper that will be hunting gathers and if they don't want to completely waste their time, they will need to fight back to at least keep a portion of their resources. If they don't fight back and give you corruption, you will just be replaced by the next pvper who comes running past 30 minutes later.

  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    As a thought, if harvesters have harvesting specific items equipped - working under the assumption that we can't change items in combat as has been stated - it may well be that harvesters are actually unable to fight back.

    I can't say I would be for that if it were the case, but it could be a possibility unless harvesting gear has it's own slot.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    @lexmax so one thing you might be implying is that when people die green, they also lose actual combat stats (so they may become too weak to kill mobs later on)?

    If this is true that is a mechanic I do not know about, since it is not talked about.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    I agree with ya lex for the most part. Unfortunately the corrupt debuff plus the death penalty while corrupt far out weighs and possible reward you get from having to kill someone encroaching on resources or enemies you found. It is all unrewarded risk. 

    So basically with me (even as a pvp lover) I will remain green when attacked... Make my way back to the area (greens spawn in nearby nodes) look for who killed me (bounty) and kill them as a corrupt player. Yes I have to make up for my exp loss but they suffer 4x more than me and essentially drop what i lost and have to deal with a more random spawn. 

    And now on top of that any green  in the area can engage you without being flagged and you can't defend yourself without increasing corruption. It's one sided as it stands right now. 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Gothix said:
    @lexmax so one thing you might be implying is that when people die green, they also lose actual combat stats (so they may become too weak to kill mobs later on)?

    If this is true that is a mechanic I do not know about, since it is not talked about.
    I'll repeat what has been said above:
    • A non-combatant who dies suffers normal penalties, which include experience debt (negative experience), durability loss (developer quote), as well as dropping a percentage of carried raw materials (developer quote).

    • A combatant who dies suffers these same penalties, but at half the rate of a non-combatant (developer quote).

    • A corrupt player suffers penalties at three or four times the rate of a non-combatant, and has a chance to drop any carried/equipped items based on their current corruption score. This includes weapons, gear, and inventory items (developer quote).
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Why is this topic still going lol, everyone is just repeating the same things back and forth.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Argentdawn said:
    I agree with ya lex for the most part. Unfortunately the corrupt debuff plus the death penalty while corrupt far out weighs and possible reward you get from having to kill someone encroaching on resources or enemies you found. It is all unrewarded risk. 

    So basically with me (even as a pvp lover) I will remain green when attacked... Make my way back to the area (greens spawn in nearby nodes) look for who killed me (bounty) and kill them as a corrupt player. Yes I have to make up for my exp loss but they suffer 4x more than me and essentially drop what i lost and have to deal with a more random spawn. 

    And now on top of that any green  in the area can engage you without being flagged and you can't defend yourself without increasing corruption. It's one sided as it stands right now. 
    If I come across someone that uses this as their plan, I already have a counter-plan in mind. That is the thing with this system - no one side has an inherent advantage.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited April 2018
    I guess it's also worth mentioning that gathering tools break and can't be repaired so if they never fight back they will end up wasting tools in addition to time. There is also the durability system itself. If they aren't fighting back, tickle them down to low health and finish them with a huge nuke so they take a large durability hit.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Argentdawn said:
    I agree with ya lex for the most part. Unfortunately the corrupt debuff plus the death penalty while corrupt far out weighs and possible reward you get from having to kill someone encroaching on resources or enemies you found. It is all unrewarded risk. 

    So basically with me (even as a pvp lover) I will remain green when attacked... Make my way back to the area (greens spawn in nearby nodes) look for who killed me (bounty) and kill them as a corrupt player. Yes I have to make up for my exp loss but they suffer 4x more than me and essentially drop what i lost and have to deal with a more random spawn. 

    And now on top of that any green  in the area can engage you without being flagged and you can't defend yourself without increasing corruption. It's one sided as it stands right now. 
    Yeah, that may indeed be the case @Argentdawn. If so, it should become obvious during alpha and beta testing and allow the devs to tune the penalties accordingly. Nobody wants an unbalanced game. Bringing people together in meaningful combat is why I would want to continue to play this game, as opposed to gank box games, which get really boring really fast.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    If you attack a player, even a corrupted player, you should flag purple. There is no reason this should not be the case. Is their a Dev quote that states you can flag green and stay green while attacking a corrupted player?

    That would need to be changed, otherwise Green Griefing will exist, and it shouldn't. As for the plan to use this as an advantage (assuming you stay green while attacking a corrupt player), that is the same as a PvP player attacking and killing a green player (and at the same time worse). Shady, real shady.

    I like how (some of) those that are against corruption seem to think Max Corruption occurs after killing one green.

    I was also under the impression that, although there is no de-leveling, large xp debt (even by those staying green) did incur stat penalties. It should.

    @Gothix @Noaani
    I don't know, I use to be 100% on board with corruption. However, if xp debt doesn't effect everyone equally (corrupt experiencing more debt quicker) and if Greens can attack Reds without flagging Purple I am going to have to considerably review my stance.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    Azathoth said:
    If you attack a player, even a corrupted player, you should flag purple. There is no reason this should not be the case. Is their a Dev quote that states you can flag green and stay green while attacking a corrupted player?

    That would need to be changed, otherwise Green Griefing will exist, and it shouldn't. As for the plan to use this as an advantage (assuming you stay green while attacking a corrupt player), that is the same as a PvP player attacking and killing a green player (and at the same time worse). Shady, real shady.

    I like how (some of) those that are against corruption seem to think Max Corruption occurs after killing one green.

    I was also under the impression that, although there is no de-leveling, large xp debt (even by those staying green) did incur stat penalties. It should.

    @Gothix @Noaani
    I don't know, I use to be 100% on board with corruption. However, if xp debt doesn't effect everyone equally (corrupt experiencing more debt quicker) and if Greens can attack Reds without flagging Purple I am going to have to considerably review my stance.
    How would it make any sense for a green player to turn purple when he kills a corrupt? The whole point of corruption is that you have done something that in the world of AoC is considered "wrong", by not being punished for running around and griefing everyone you see the game turns into BDO(the most cancer open-world PvP experience I have ever seen.)
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    If you want to engage in PvP you need to be purple.
    If you don't you can stay green, and since you don't want to flag purple, don't engage in PvP.

    I honestly never considered this a mindset. This is the mindset the pro-PvP anti-Corruption peeps are fighting against. Why should it be one sided?
Sign In or Register to comment.