Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Please Keep The Camera Angle, Zoom and Perspective
ArchivedUser
Guest
So, props to the gang from Intrepid on that combat trailer yesterday! I think it was above expectations from what many were thinking they'd see! 
I loved the way the camera was over-the-shoulder, and zoomed closer in.
In the last few years of MMO draught, I dove into some single player games... notably, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed Origins, Rise of the Tomb Raider and more recently Horizon Zero Dawn and God of War.
What is common in all of these games (and others of course) is that they share a similar camera angle and zoom level to what was shown in the AoC action combat preview video.
For the style of combat AoC is going for with AoC, I think locking the camera to this perspective would be great. It feels more visceral since you're observing the action from much closer, but also I think provides an important perspective on using skill-based abilities, both offensive and defensive, in an action combat system.
Now, I know there will be cries of horror. Some players love and expect to be able to play MMOs zoomed so far out it looks more like an RTS. I guess it makes it easier to see the full field of view. But do we want easier?
But I think it's time to break that cycle in MMOs.
Would be curious to hear others' thoughts on this topic! I am prepared for the flames.
I loved the way the camera was over-the-shoulder, and zoomed closer in.
In the last few years of MMO draught, I dove into some single player games... notably, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed Origins, Rise of the Tomb Raider and more recently Horizon Zero Dawn and God of War.
What is common in all of these games (and others of course) is that they share a similar camera angle and zoom level to what was shown in the AoC action combat preview video.
For the style of combat AoC is going for with AoC, I think locking the camera to this perspective would be great. It feels more visceral since you're observing the action from much closer, but also I think provides an important perspective on using skill-based abilities, both offensive and defensive, in an action combat system.
Now, I know there will be cries of horror. Some players love and expect to be able to play MMOs zoomed so far out it looks more like an RTS. I guess it makes it easier to see the full field of view. But do we want easier?
But I think it's time to break that cycle in MMOs.
Would be curious to hear others' thoughts on this topic! I am prepared for the flames.
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In order to not feel extremely restricted, a wide range of zoom needs to be available.
But that's my point - that "field of view" works great for the very best games and most successful games out there - they do not give you a choice because the game design accounts for it.
To those others saying that zoom is needed to give players "options" for their "preference" - I don't think you so. You can't zoom in or out on the Witcher or HZD because it would be game-breaking.
Lethality said: Now .. i honestly don't care about the Zoom-in & Zoom-out feature showcased in other MMORPGs ... but I also know why others like it so much
- having a Bird's Eye-view on whats going on gives " some sort of " Competitive edge ... but it doesn't maintain the Immersive feel to it ...via ... if you were literally your avatar ... you would NOT have a constant Bird's Eye View
I personally want my Screen zoomed at the Normal-Setting/ Standard-Setting. A Zoomed-out Camera Angle annoyed me everytime i tried to use it - I don't see how others liked it. As long as my U.I. can be optimized to where itsTransparent + Minimized + Re-Preposition then I'm Golden tbh.
This is not about my "preference" or about taking away "options".
The point is to design the combat around the idea that THAT is the view you play from. Again, this is how the best and most popular games in the world do it. Heck, Skyrim is in FIRST person and people seem to love that game.
MMO players have gotten used to this idea that they should always have a 360 degree view of the area around them... why should that be true?
I feel if they're going to do a real action combat system, then the time for 360 view has come to an end. Make it work like the best games in the world do it.
It's ok to embrace change. You can adapt. Don't hold on to crutches of the past, and at least entertain that maybe some old MMO ideals should be tossed out to "make MMOs great again".
I'm sure Intrepid is thinking about these things. Steven's comment, like everything else, is subject to iteration and testing.
Note that I don't *expect* a locked camera, but it will be a missed opportunity to make a statement about MMO combat.
Irl we can keep up really well with whats going on around us.
We can see movement easily from our sides and we can get needed info with a quick glance.
Playing the game thrugh a screen prevents it so 3rd person is a kind of a fix for that.
You can look up more on this by searching for studies to make vr glasses realistic.
I could relate to ur 1st person point if we perceived the game through virtual reality glasses but we are not there yet :d
I personally prefer to have both with a keybind to switch between(not just scrolling).
In fight closer view would help with accuracy where as switching to further would help u keep up with surroundings.
Also earlier in videos they had the timed skill slider bar and it really feels like the same function when the archer zooms the shot.
Anyone knows if its dmg modifier? Any info on skill release timers?
We aren't missing the point, I think you are.
Why would you want your view locked? Do you swordfight with a neck brace on?
It's not an advantage and it's not breaking immersion its keeping it. You cant re create our awareness on a screen very easily and being able to look around is a good compromise to not being able move you neck.
So, it is only fair, if everybody can customize it. Left, right, middle.
I can't imagine being able to make sense of what's going on in a giant battle with an over-the-shoulder locked camera, especially given the amount of mobility as showcased in the trailer. This is not even taking into account the particle effects of spells and abilities, but if these are not able to be toned down then the problem here is exacerbated.
Also, the tab targeting method of combat would suffer seeing as tab targeting almost always benefits from a max FOV setting. For a game that strives to make both action combat and tab targeting viable methods of combat (and even to have these two modes work together in harmony), the more camera customization that is allowed, the better.
Posted something similar in another thread, but I think the biggest challenge Intrepid has is making these two forms of combat - action & tab targeting - work together in a way that feels good, taking the camera / FOV options into account. For instance, if I have a build that utilizes both action combat abilities and tab targeting skills, does it feel good to play regardless of FOV used? Does, for example, a max FOV benefit me in some aspects of my build (tab-targeting skills) and hinder me in others (action combat skills)?
For action combat, it almost feels like some nuances of technical skill become a bit trickier when playing with a higher FOV - especially given what looks like a skill-shot ADS-like system shown in the trailer - whereas tab targeting almost always benefits from a higher FOV.
Nonetheless, looking forward to testing in Alpha 1 and providing feedback on the action combat once I have the chance to get the feel of it in large scale battles.
The image below could be a representation of a player's point of view in a 3d environment and shows a roughly 100 degree field of view in both the y and z axes. Everything inside the red circle is what is visible on your monitor. The centre of the sphere is the location of your camera in the game world.
A first person perspective would have the sphere positioned such that the player's character's head is fixed at the centre.
To adjust to a third person perspective the centre of the sphere would be moved to the right along the x-axis.
Zooming out does not change the field of view as it moves the centre of the sphere more to the right on the x-axis.
Rotating does not change the field of view. It will not change the position of the sphere or the size or shape of the red circle. Rotating around the x-axis would keep the position of the red circle the same but would have the same effect as picking up your monitor and turning it upside down. Rotating around the y-axis would have the same effect as sitting still and never moving your eyes in a rotating desk chair and then spinning the chair. Rotating around the z-axis would have the same effect as rotating your head to look up at the sky or down at the floor.
Changing the field of view in respect to the y-axis would stretch or squish the red circle up or down. Similarly, change in respect to the z-axis would stretch or squish right or left. This is the only way to change the field of view.
At the time of writing this, the most viewed game on twitch is League of Legends. LoL has a bird's eye view and a free camera. The third most viewed game is World of Warcraft. WoW has a third person camera with the option to change the zoom level. Heck, Candy Crush does not have your proposed perspective, and it is the most downloaded game of all time. Clearly it is not the case that the “best and most popular games in the world do it”.
Skyrim is not loved by many because it has a first person camera. It is loved because it is accessible, immersive and permissive.
What is common in all of the games you listed, in your original post, is that they are all single player. While the fixed perspective may work great in them, they are predictable with enough experience through repeated play. There isn’t a need to be worried about a possible flank as the monsters are mostly ahead of the player and ganks are in fixed places or at fixed times. MMORPGs boast much longer play times and the world isn’t static. To prevent defeat before the fight has begun, one needs to be able to observe the world for unknown threats. It is very unfulfilling to be defeated with no opportunity for victory.
In WoW it is possible to look straight down creating a bird's eye view. You may be able to technically see all around your character but this is not a 360 degree field of view. You cannot see anything further than x distance away from your character. Choosing to orient your camera so that you have a bird's eye view is a risk vs reward scenario. While you have the advantage of being be able to get a better picture of what is going on in your immediate surroundings, anything happening beyond your camera's view (i.e. beyond the top down box of ground you can see) is out of sight and impossible to monitor, which is clearly a disadvantage.
Risk vs reward is an integral part of Ashes of Creation. Risking materials in a caravan run, against unknown encounters, to make money or risking enormous amounts of work to siege a castle is the players' choice to make and bear the consequences of. Yet you want to remove a small part of that.
There will be many great height differences in Verra. From giant statues built in ancient times to deep holes filled with monsters to explore. Yet you want to restrict players' ability to experience the breathtaking world Intrepid Studios have made.
Ashes of Creation is not just a combat game and the players' perspective should be designed around the whole game (in any game). Most people want the freedom to choose theirs. Yet you want to set it in stone because allowing options is a “crutch of the past”. Don't be ridiculous.
Call me old fashioned, but I don't directly play through my MMO avatars. Ive always gone with a vicarious perspective as far back in 3rd person view to see not just the character but the whole environment as well.
You're bringing a MOBA (RTS) into this discussion? C'mon. And before you argue, I think chess should remain a top-down view game.
The parallel between AoC and the games I mentioned was drawn because of the angle Intrepid chose to show the combat at (and you can bet this wasn't an accident.) Virtually every quality single player game with deep, skill-based action combat LOCKS the camera and view in place. For good reason - it was designed that way.
So that's what I'm advocating - design for it, and keep it locked that way and give MMOs a true, genuine action combat system that they deserve.
You might want to check out Warframe, one of the most popular MMO-like multiplayer games out there right now, and what they do with their camera. Hint: it's locked.
Using other games as a comparison is a bad idea anyway since they have camera angles where they are for a reason there is alson no reason to restrict players preferences. As for Warframe you are able to change the FOV resulting in the character being zoomed away from.