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Please Keep The Camera Angle, Zoom and Perspective

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Comments

  • Nefelia said:
    Kratz said:
    I think it's safe to say this "discussion" has gone full circle. :)

    It never really had much room to maneuver in the first place.
    I never said it was a "big" circle :D
  • ofcourse it Locks the reticle that is the compromise to Tab/selected targeting, especially with any kind of ranged ability. however in massive multiplayer situations rather than small/team group/single player games you have to accommodate for everyone in the environment with Latency all over the real world.

    this inevitably leads to a reliance on AOE, Cleave, Cone and aim assist to compensate.
    which undermines 'skill'

    Most action combat seems to have eventuated from the use of gamepad/controller limitations.

    Where as MMO conventional combat, UI management, world interaction has evolved from keyboard and mouse.

    I am sure you will able choose the perspective the way it was in the demo, but forcing that on everyone else....no, it won't happen.



  • Nefelia said:
    Kratz said:
    I think it's safe to say this "discussion" has gone full circle. :)

    It never really had much room to maneuver in the first place.

    The devs have already made it clear that they will be sticking to industry standard for the PoV. As such any discussion on the issue is purely philosophical.
    Unless this is the first game you've followed in development, you know that things change - even big things. Even "promises." Because sometimes they have to.

    This camera thing? For sure will be decided on through play-testing, not through a comment 4 years ahead of release :)

    I already conceded that this might not be the right thing for a multi-player game. But that answer will only come through play testing.

    What I know for sure is every other game genre does combat better than MMOs. MMO players are always looking for something new but then end up asking for the same old thing -- as evidenced right here in this very thread.




  • Which genre does combat better than mmos? If we didnt like the combat in mmos wouldnt we change the genre?

    Lemme ask, how would it hurt the combat if players had possibility to change camera position?


  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Lethality said:
    Nefelia said:
    Kratz said:
    I think it's safe to say this "discussion" has gone full circle. :)

    It never really had much room to maneuver in the first place.

    The devs have already made it clear that they will be sticking to industry standard for the PoV. As such any discussion on the issue is purely philosophical.
    What I know for sure is every other game genre does combat better than MMOs. MMO players are always looking for something new but then end up asking for the same old thing -- as evidenced right here in this very thread.

    I'm sorry but when I critique combat in an MMO game I personally don't give much consideration to the camera angles. Why? Because I can choose my own and so can everyone else which is totally logical. It's hardly game breaking. The only thing evidenced in this thread is your inability to accept that there are MMO vets here, the majority of which have presented you with reasons, just as valid as yours, for wanting to keep the PoV customizable.

    Intrepid's vision for this game is complicated and quite revolutionary in some respects and I am glad that they're using their resources to implement combat in more meaningful ways than developing camera locks and putting the player base into an ultimatum of vision as you propose.

    Perhaps you should also spend your time reflecting on the differences between your opinion and fact, and avoid generalising in the way that you do.

    You're correct that combat may change through feedback and testing but I will donate my toe bones to @Nagash if they lock the damn camera.

    0/

  • @Kratz

    I didn't say anyone's opinion was invalid, did I?  I'm advocating a time for change.

    Many of these "MMO vets" are blind to what is actually happening out there in gaming - because they don't play anything else except MMOs, which have been crippled for many reasons since day 1. If they don't play these other games. they can't possibly have the insight into why this could be a better thing.

    All the "vets" here continue to ask for change but demand sameness in the next breath.

    I'm quite frankly saddened by the closed-minded replies from certain community members I see in this thread.

    @Blackhearted

    Let me turn your question around - what it would be like if you had a free camera in God of War, or Horizon Zero Dawn?  Would it change the gameplay? Completely. Trivialize it? Arguably. 


  • As long as I can see whats in front of me I'm fine only beholders have the power of 360 view 
  • Kratz said:
    Nefelia said:
    Kratz said:
    I think it's safe to say this "discussion" has gone full circle. :)

    It never really had much room to maneuver in the first place.
    I never said it was a "big" circle :D

    Lol, well played. :)




    I've said my piece. Calling me close-minded is not a rebuttal I feel the need to respond to.

    I'd advise you to keep in mind that the people you are discussing the issue with all have their own wealth of experience. Your experience is in no way more valid or relevant than theirs.

    I enjoyed the discussion, and hope to run into you again in these forums on other topics. Have a good day. :)
  • FOV adjustments will be possible, but the level of zoom available in a typical MMO is not quite the same as being able to adjust your FOV in most games that use aiming. Take a look at the lowest and highest FOV available in Warframe (which is a similar camera position as seen in the action combat demo). The amount of zoom involved there is minimal when increasing the FOV and not comparable to the camera zoom you can do in WoW for example.

    I'm having a hard time picturing how the targeting would work with the action part of the combat when you're zoomed out like a top-down perspective for example (or almost top-down). You would completely lack verticality in aiming. Tera used a targeting reticle and as soon as you strayed from the over the shoulder perspective aiming became awkward, even though the aiming in Tera was also extremely generous.

    I would personally like for the camera and adjustments to be similar to Warframe as it seems to make the most sense for combat using an aiming reticle.



  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    I prefer free cameras, and have mostly played mmos with free cameras. Fixed cameras, I dunno, it feels like the game is trying to be a first person shooter with swords.
  • I like the third person view they have now.
  • Having camera customization is important, especially to appreciate the world and your character's appearance.  GW2 and ESO are both action combat and have an excellent camera view with over the sholder options.  Having both is best, play it your way.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Lethality said:
    So, props to the gang from Intrepid on that combat trailer yesterday! I think it was above expectations from what many were thinking they'd see! :)

    I loved the way the camera was over-the-shoulder, and zoomed closer in. 

    In the last few years of MMO draught, I dove into some single player games... notably, The Witcher 3, Assassin's Creed Origins, Rise of the Tomb Raider and more recently Horizon Zero Dawn and God of War.

    What is common in all of these games (and others of course) is that they share a similar camera angle and zoom level to what was shown in the AoC action combat preview video.

    For the style of combat AoC is going for with AoC, I think locking the camera to this perspective would be great. It feels more visceral since you're observing the action from much closer, but also I think provides an important perspective on using skill-based abilities, both offensive and defensive, in an action combat system.

    Now, I know there will be cries of horror. Some players love and expect to be able to play MMOs zoomed so far out it looks more like an RTS. I guess it makes it easier to see the full field of view. But do we want easier? 

    But I think it's time to break that cycle in MMOs.

    Would be curious to hear others' thoughts on this topic!  I am prepared for the flames.
    As someone who has been a top tier PVPer in multiple MMOs I would honestly love to see this implemented and standardized in MMOs.  It would force players to be more aware of their surroundings like a MOBA game and that would help further the skillcap between good and bad players.  I do also agree on that zooming out gives players a visual advantage I feel that they should not have in a game.  
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Nefelia said:
    I will say the same thing I always say when someone advocates removing content or options that they don't personally prefer: "no".

    Your preference is not shared by everyone planning on playing AoC. The game is currently set to allow PoV customization so that you can have the zoom level you prefer while others have the zoom level they prefer.

    Removing that option from them does not make the game any better or worse for you. it simply makes the game worse for them.

    Why the hell would you even advocate for such a thing?
    Nefelia said:
    I will say the same thing I always say when someone advocates removing content or options that they don't personally prefer: "no".

    Your preference is not shared by everyone planning on playing AoC. The game is currently set to allow PoV customization so that you can have the zoom level you prefer while others have the zoom level they prefer.

    Removing that option from them does not make the game any better or worse for you. it simply makes the game worse for them.

    Why the hell would you even advocate for such a thing?
    Why are you so mad he asked a question???
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Methios said:
    I would honestly love to see this implemented and standardized in MMOs.  It would force players to be more aware of their surroundings like a MOBA game
    Ashes of Creation is not a MOBA. Ashes of Creation is not a competitive game at its core. You're just looking at one part of the game that matches your play style and project your desires onto the rest of the game where there's players that just don't want a fixed camera.
    I'm neither for nor against a certain camera style and would adapt to whatever may come, but the best compromise is just letting everyone decide for their own. And that's a fact.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    c0ug4r said:
    Methios said:
    I would honestly love to see this implemented and standardized in MMOs.  It would force players to be more aware of their surroundings like a MOBA game
    Ashes of Creation is not a MOBA. Ashes of Creation is not a competitive game at its core. You're just looking at one part of the game that matches your play style and project your desires onto the rest of the game where there's players that just don't want a fixed camera.
    I'm neither for nor against a certain camera style and would adapt to whatever may come, but the best compromise is just letting everyone decide for their own. And that's a fact.
    I NEVER said it was a MOBA.... I used MOBAs as an example for the fact to be good at MOBAs you need to be aware of your surroundings at all times just as if it were a FPS game.

     Really, it's not a competitive game at the core?? Then why are the top guilds going to run the major cities based off of competition and being the best???

    I said "I WOULD honestly love to see this."  not they NEED to put that style of camera in their game. 

    Obviously not everyone is going to like that style of camera.  We are just stating our opinions on the matter which Lethality said in his original post before everyone got so pissed and took offense to the post.   So anyways, we are aware they are using the standard 3rd person zoom in and out camera style which has been the standard camera style since Everquest days for MMOs.
  • Lethality said:
    @Kratz

    Many of these "MMO vets" are blind to what is actually happening out there in gaming - because they don't play anything else except MMOs, which have been crippled for many reasons since day 1. If they don't play these other games. they can't possibly have the insight into why this could be a better thing.

    All the "vets" here continue to ask for change but demand sameness in the next breath.

    I'm quite frankly saddened by the closed-minded replies from certain community members I see in this thread.




    Exactly, people want this major change in MMO games but when there is change they complain it's not like "The Standard"  MMO and stop playing it.    

    For example Wildstar,  it actually is a rather amazing game but dead because it was not "The Standard" easy MMO and it had different combat which was very fun. 
  • Methios said:
    Really, it's not a competitive game at the core?? Then why are the top guilds going to run the major cities based off of competition and being the best???
    Sorry, misconception on my side of course. Competitive makes me think of MOBA, Overwatch,... well, high skill PvP on a smaller scale. I don't see too much of that in Ashes though it is of course highly competitive in other ways, too.

    As for the rest it was/is a useless debate when the developer has already decided and most of the comments here back their decision. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have given your opinion, but I shouldn't have answered :D
  • Methios said:
    Lethality said:
    @Kratz

    Many of these "MMO vets" are blind to what is actually happening out there in gaming - because they don't play anything else except MMOs, which have been crippled for many reasons since day 1. If they don't play these other games. they can't possibly have the insight into why this could be a better thing.

    All the "vets" here continue to ask for change but demand sameness in the next breath.

    I'm quite frankly saddened by the closed-minded replies from certain community members I see in this thread.




    Exactly, people want this major change in MMO games but when there is change they complain it's not like "The Standard"  MMO and stop playing it.    
    I've been MMO'ing since 1999 and I couldn't name you one person I've met whose left a game because of camera angles. That certainly isn't the change I'm looking for.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Kratz said:
    Methios said:
    Lethality said:
    @Kratz

    Many of these "MMO vets" are blind to what is actually happening out there in gaming - because they don't play anything else except MMOs, which have been crippled for many reasons since day 1. If they don't play these other games. they can't possibly have the insight into why this could be a better thing.

    All the "vets" here continue to ask for change but demand sameness in the next breath.

    I'm quite frankly saddened by the closed-minded replies from certain community members I see in this thread.




    Exactly, people want this major change in MMO games but when there is change they complain it's not like "The Standard"  MMO and stop playing it.    
    I've been MMO'ing since 1999 and I couldn't name you one person I've met whose left a game because of camera angles. That certainly isn't the change I'm looking for.
    I did not mean camera angles when I was referring to people wanted this change in MMOs.  The change I am referring to is players wanting this unique never before concept in a MMO and when a company does just that they cry because it's not like WoW clone #5. Then they go back playing a subpar MMO cause it has mechanics they have been using over the last 12 years because they are comfortable with those mechanics.
  • Methios said:
    Why are you so mad he asked a question???

    Who said I was angry? Or are you implying that I am insane?

    I gave a firm - but dispassionate - answer. Perhaps you misread the tone of my last question, which should be read as incredulous rather than angry.
  • Methios said:
    Kratz said:
    Methios said:
    Lethality said:
    @Kratz

    Many of these "MMO vets" are blind to what is actually happening out there in gaming - because they don't play anything else except MMOs, which have been crippled for many reasons since day 1. If they don't play these other games. they can't possibly have the insight into why this could be a better thing.

    All the "vets" here continue to ask for change but demand sameness in the next breath.

    I'm quite frankly saddened by the closed-minded replies from certain community members I see in this thread.




    Exactly, people want this major change in MMO games but when there is change they complain it's not like "The Standard"  MMO and stop playing it.    
    I've been MMO'ing since 1999 and I couldn't name you one person I've met whose left a game because of camera angles. That certainly isn't the change I'm looking for.
    I did not mean camera angles when I was referring to people wanted this change in MMOs.  The change I am referring to is players wanting this unique never before concept in a MMO and when a company does just that they cry because it's not like WoW clone #5. Then they go back playing a subpar MMO cause it has mechanics they have been using over the last 12 years because they are comfortable with those mechanics.
    Then I apologise. Since this was a thread about camera angles I thought that's what we were discussing.
  • Seeing the new video reinforces my thinking that this could be the way they are going. 

    Is there a tab-target game out there that gives you the zoom/scope ability for aiming? How would that work if you were zoomed out a mile high and wide? It would be jarring to zoom your screen around to provide that perspective given how far off from it you would be.

    Anyway, I do find this topic interesting!
  • I honestly think that the camera angle they are showing in the demos is the right one and should be the standard. It brings immersion and reduce the advantage of seeing what´s on the back of your character, and that factor itself would be another layer of gameplay that would reward those who play better and are aware of their surroundings.
  • If I had to play with over-the-shoulder camera....
    Thank god I can set it to centered. Or in this case, thank Steven? :smiley:

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