Cash Shop Implementation

From what I read there will be a cash shop for purely cosmetic items. I'd prefer we didn't have them, but if Intrepid insists than they should be implemented in an immersive way. It would be a shame for there to be a dedicated icon in the UI to open up a cosmetic cash shop. The best way to implement it would be a physical shop keeper that only pops up once a node has reached the village state. Moreover, I would feel much more at ease if the cosmetic items in the cash shop were purchasable with in-game currency even if it's tagged with a very high markup. The idea of any content (even cosmetic) being walled behind microtransactions leaves a bad taste in my mouth. What do you guys think?
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Comments

  • The entire point of the cash shop for cosmetics is to off-set game development and maintenance cost, Intrepid doesn't make any money if they sell the cash shop items for in game gold.  

    They have already said that there will be a number of cosmetics available in game, and the armor as we have already seen looks great unlike other games which clothes you in horribly looking armor if you don't spend real world money.

    As far as limiting it behind node development, again no.  The entire purpose of the cash shop is to keep the game funded and running.





  • Jahlon said:
    The entire point of the cash shop for cosmetics is to off-set game development and maintenance cost, Intrepid doesn't make any money if they sell the cash shop items for in game gold.  

    They have already said that there will be a number of cosmetics available in game, and the armor as we have already seen looks great unlike other games which clothes you in horribly looking armor if you don't spend real world money.

    As far as limiting it behind node development, again no.  The entire purpose of the cash shop is to keep the game funded and running.





    I mean to have the cosmetic items purchasable via both in game currency and cash. But the cost to buy with in game currency would be very high. A lot of games have this type of implementation.

    "The entire purpose of the cash shop is to keep the game funded and running." Is this a quote from Steven? Last I read, he said he has the funds to personally see the project through and even the KS was just for bonus features. And the future dev would be funded through our subs... I don't see why the cosmetic shop has to be something that accessible at all times for the game to maintain profitability.
  • As its just for outfits and cosmetics you have no reason to buy them if you don't want them.
  • nagash said:
    As its just for outfits and cosmetics you have no reason to buy them if you don't want them.
    I completely understand that. It's more just about the principle of the matter and the implementation of the cash shop in a way that isn't immersion breaking.
  • Beolupus said:
    nagash said:
    As its just for outfits and cosmetics you have no reason to buy them if you don't want them.
    I completely understand that. It's more just about the principle of the matter and the implementation of the cash shop in a way that isn't immersion breaking.
    As an RPer, I get that 100% but the only way to make any outfit work cash shop or note is if the devs make gear that fits the lore and as steven is as much of a lore fanatic as me I have hope he will do us proud ^^
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    A lot of effort is going into the localized in-game economy. It just seems somewhat silly that I can pull out some cosmetic items out of a magic hat if I'm willing to pay for it.
  • Beolupus said:

    "The entire purpose of the cash shop is to keep the game funded and running." Is this a quote from Steven? Last I read, he said he has the funds to personally see the project through and even the KS was just for bonus features. And the future dev would be funded through our subs... I don't see why the cosmetic shop has to be something that accessible at all times for the game to maintain profitability.
    Steven had the funding to bring the core product to publication

    "We’ve got private backing that will allow us to produce a core viable product. What Kickstarter will allow us to do is expand our scope and give our team flexibility and room to breathe."

    Also, I don't think you understand how expensive game development is.    Consider the companies that use a box price for their game AND have a sub.  Take WoW for example, Battle for Azeroth sold 3,400,000 copies in one day.   At $44.99 a copy that's  $152,966,000.  

    Ashes isn't charging a box price, which means they have to offset development and maintenance (servers, ISP, staff payroll, utilities, rent, etc) from the monthly sub and cosmetic cash sales.


    As far as having "The Black Tuxedo" for sale from both the cash shop and for in-game currency, Intrepid will sell far fewer black tuxedos if they can be bought with gold.  The uniqueness, the appeal to the cash shop items is that they will be limited enough by their exclusivity.  

  • @Jahlon I mean that's true, and I'm not trying to argue with you but just have a discussion on the topic. Personally, I feel that if further funding is required than I would gladly pay a box price over having a cash shop at all. Moreover, I think you'd be surprised how many people may avoid this game due to the cash shop existence alone (very much in regard to the older MMO players). Hence, there is also quite a following for a game like Pantheon Rise of the Fallen despite its rather dated aesthetics.

    For how much Steven says he is catering to all us older MMORPG enthusiasts whom have been "forgotten" and how much emphasis there is on no P2W, it just seems to me that it would speak volumes by simply saying the game won't have microtransactions at all. For me, I'd rather pay via traditional methods (box & expansions & sub) than have cosmetic shop. It just seems more in touch with the idea that this game is trying to revitalize the roots of the MMORPG genre.
  • Honestly, I don't think people are going to be turned off with a cosmetic cash shop.  I mean if anyone is upset about a cosmetic cash shop, they are going to just find the next thing to complain about.

    They've already disclosed what the business model would be, so that ship has sailed.  They aren't going to be able to change that at this point. 

    As far as micro-transactions, there is a huge difference between "micro-transactions" and a cosmetic cash shop.  Microtransactions come with boosts, advantages, etc.  The cosmetic cash shop is simply that: cosmetics

    The game with a flat $15 a month sub, that will bring people to the game more than it would if there was a box price and a monthly sub. 

  • Jahlon said:
    Honestly, I don't think people are going to be turned off with a cosmetic cash shop.  I mean if anyone is upset about a cosmetic cash shop, they are going to just find the next thing to complain about.
    Just what I thought. The only time I heard someone complain about the cash shop, it was because it could possibly pave the way for P2W. Never have I heard of anyone complain about the cash shop as an immersion breaker - until now  ;)
    And just as Jahlon said, whoever is turned off by such a tiny break of immersion is likely to find more grave ones in other game mechanics as well.
  • Since there will be cosmetics in game too the cash shop is only for those that want to buy it, something like this is usually detached from the game so making an in-game shopkeeper is not the best idea, I for one would be really bothered by something like that. Of course I hope we won't see immersion breaking outfits but this also depends on what exactly is immersion breaking for a player.
  • One thing I will say though, is after the game launches I hope the "one time only" exclusive aspect of the cash shop goes away.   I'd love to see them rotate and get brought back after a while, lest people who join the game later miss out on a cosmetic and never get the chance to get them again.

    Of course, the ones that appeared in KS, Summer, and early access packs should remain locked.   
  • I may not be explaining my thought process all too well here, and to say immersion breaking may not be the best way to describe it. Lets take ESO as an example here, it rubbed the wrong way that upon logging into the game, the very first thing I see is an advertisement pop up to the in-game cash shop for some cosmetic item or mount. Despite not really being P2W, it didn't feel good that the game was trying to entice me to shell out money for such things in such an "in your face" manner.

    I know that game is F2P, so its not quite the same but I suppose I'm just saying its a slippery slope.
  • ESO is p2w or at the very least p2convenience. You can buy exp boosts, (which reduce the amount of time needed to become more powerful, p2w), training to cut down on the 6 months to fully upgrade each individual characters mount (making you faster, or less able to be knocked off you horse in pvp, once again p2w) and a variety of other things. Along with that annoying pop-up, (which can be gotten rid of with a simple addon, no addons here though), they just recently added the ability to gift cash shop items to your friends. Literally the first hour after the servers came up for update I started seeing messages in chat "Will mail you store items for in-game gold!!" and then started getting whispers from people saying that they "would send me X item for half the store price in real money" if I sent them cash via Paypal all based on some arbitrary crowns/gold/cash ratio someone had dreamed up.

    My point. A cosmetic cash shop that provides no p2w or convenience, no gifting allowed, no purchases of things in the shop for in game currency, removes all incentive to RMT. No paying for your sub with in game currency, removes RMT. Take the possible ways that people with the agenda of finding ways of even getting a single dollar out of Ashes in the form of real money and you cut down on all the toxic bot and gold seller behavior that plagues the mmo market.

    Now we have seen plenty say that the company will spend more time developing cosmetics for sale than the ones they can earn in game for the price of their sub. They have promised parity. All the other promises that Steven has made seem to be fine to these people, but they doubt him on this. We see the "He's rich, game has been paid for, he don't need anything more than my less than 50 cents a day sub!" Intrepid while started with the best intentions in mind is a business. If they look at the return on a sub model and think that supplementing it with a cosmetic shop works better for them to keep development and staff salaries, and even allowing Steven to make money (the horror!) from his and his teams work, than a box price and then putting out a rushed out the door "expansion, only $60" every 6 months, I am more than fine with it. Constantly in posts here you see those with an agenda claim numbers pulled out of their ass. So before the next "all the players want this!" or "a majority would support this, but not that!" posts that pops up, realize these forums are an extremely small slice of the customer base, and for all the "I review on Yelp, so I am a reviewer, hear me roar!" entitlement attitude, you truly are a fart in a hurricane.
  • I make no claims that I speak for a majority, nor do I have qualms with Steven making money. I just want to have a discussion on the cash shop model. I guess I've just followed a lot of MMO's over the past decade and every one which features a cash shop has never been able to stay away from p2w/p2convenience in some fashion despite their claims.

    Another genuine question I have, has Steven confirmed that cosmetics bought will be account bound? Admittedly a stretch, but it would be unfortunate if people could buy cosmetics for cash and sell them in game for gold or w/e the in game currency is.
  • Yes, they have confirmed multiple times that all cosmetics are account bound and will not be tradeable.


  • Beolupus said:
    " ...  you'd be surprised how many people may avoid this game due to the cash shop existence alone ... it just seems to me that it would speak volumes by simply saying the game won't have microtransactions at all ... "
    ^
  • AutumnLeaf said:
    ... Of course I hope we won't see immersion breaking outfits ... "

  • I like having a shop were i can buy mounts and outfits, its always cool to play dress up. and make my character look bad ass.
  • Mrgolde said:
    I like having a shop were i can buy mounts and outfits, its always cool to play dress up. and make my character look bad ass.
    That's the spirit
  • Beolupus said:
    @Jahlon I mean that's true, and I'm not trying to argue with you but just have a discussion on the topic. Personally, I feel that if further funding is required than I would gladly pay a box price over having a cash shop at all. Moreover, I think you'd be surprised how many people may avoid this game due to the cash shop existence alone (very much in regard to the older MMO players). Hence, there is also quite a following for a game like Pantheon Rise of the Fallen despite its rather dated aesthetics.
    If you put a mandatory up-front sticker price on the game, that will drive more people away than optional microtransactions on cosmetic items.  Of course it will, people don’t like paying money that they don’t have to.

    It would be different if this was a game like, oh, Neverwinter Online, which I do like to play by the way.  But you basically can’t participate in end-game content without paying cash for stuff.  People do get turned off by stuff like that which is true pay-to-win.

    But AoC will not have that.  It has completely optional stuff that gives your gear, mount, pet, boat, house, etc. a different look.  That’s it.  “Whales” will spend thousands because they have disposable income they want to use to get exclusive-looking things, and their choices save you money because you don’t have to buy a box.  Why would you not want that?
  • Mrgolde said:
    I like having a shop were i can buy mounts and outfits, its always cool to play dress up. and make my character look bad ass.
    My opinion may be an unpopular one but I'm of the camp that thinks you should only look "bad ass" if you've earned it, not bought it.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @Atama is there another game with this same policy that we can see as a great example? It seems to me that for every MMO they say its not P2W and only cosmetics but it always end up being some sketchy caveat.

    But your right, people will be turned away from a box price of course. So the way I see it, is you have some people whom are turned off by box price and those whom despise cash shops.

    IMO... I believe that the more hardcore MMORPG players will not be the ones turned away from the box price, and this is the audience which Intrepid should cater to most. It's these players which keep an MMO alive and kicking for the long haul. It's the MMORPG's of the past 5 - 7 years which have put the "whales" and casuals first, and it's the primary reason so many people say the genre's dead. 
  • I think you will enjoy this thread @Beolupus.
    On topic i do think having an NPC in towns selling the items instead of a shiny button on the bottom corner of my screen is a much more immersive way of presenting the cash shop.

    I personally was of the mind that any microtransactions could only be bad. but I have somewhat changed my mind. I now think that an optional cosmetic shop is a better alternative than a forced charge for all of an expansion's content.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    Beolupus said:
    @Atama is there another game with this same policy that we can see as a great example? It seems to me that for every MMO they say its not P2W and only cosmetics but it always end up being some sketchy caveat.
    That doesn’t matter.  AoC is a game that strives to be innovative in multiple ways and wants to be unique and different.  Asking for examples of games that currently do what it’s proposing to do is missing the point.

    If you want to know what the shop will have, just look at everything that’s already being offered.  Kickstarter, the summer packages, the monthly stuff in the store.  That’s what the store will have.  Just go look.
    Beolupus said:

    IMO... I believe that the more hardcore MMORPG players will not be the ones turned away from the box price, and this is the audience which Intrepid should cater to most. It's these players which keep an MMO alive and kicking for the long haul. It's the MMORPG's of the past 5 - 7 years which have put the "whales" and casuals first, and it's the primary reason so many people say the genre's dead. 


    The hardcore gamer is not a good target audience because it’s too small.  You don’t make that your audience if you want a successful game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @Atama "The hardcore gamer is not a good target audience because it’s too small.  You don’t make that your audience if you want a successful game." - Sorry but no, you're just wrong on this one. Yes, the hardcore market doesn't account for all an MMO's profit but it is the lifeblood of any respectable MMO.

    And I ask for an example, because just about every MMO will claim only cosmetics and they never stay true to that vision. Sorry I'm a skeptic, I just have every MMO of the past decade lingering in the back of my mind. And to your point concerning what's been offered, the "head start" which was a part of the kickstarter could also be called P2W, and many content creator's have even agreed to that point. But the only reason we let it slide is because there will be non-head start servers.

    A cash shop opens the door to a grey area and I don't care what Steven has promised in that regard. I'm not saying I won't play or anything like that, but the cash shop is a deterrent is the only point I'm trying to get across.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @Santy182 Aye, I did like that thread, but now I just feel like I'm kicking a dead horse. 

    "I now think that an optional cosmetic shop is a better alternative than a forced charge for all of an expansion's content." - That is understandable. Personally I'd rather pay for x-pac's if I had to choose (do we really have to choose?), but not because I think that's the cheaper route. I know for a fact that it's not the cheaper route. I just don't like people attaining items via microtransactions simply because it's not earned via in-game means. For me, it cheapens the whole experience.

    I have attained some awesome looking gear from slaying an epic world boss, and there you are.. in equal measure with your $10 costume. It irks me to say the least.
  • If you don’t trust Steven then there’s really no point in having a discussion.  Would it even matter if they said they weren’t going to have a cash shop at all?  Because how could you trust that either?  Either you take them at their word and discuss the merits of what is being planned, or you say you don’t trust them at which point there’s nothing to talk about.

    I don’t see a grey area.  You’re prejudiced against cash shops clearly.  What is it, specifically, about buying a unique-looking cloak or horse that’s a grey area?  Grey in what way; what’s the “black” that it’s tainted by?  Pay to win?  How is it straying into that?

    I’m not trying to seem confrontational or anything and I apologize if I’m coming off that way.  I don’t mean to tear your post apart or anything, but there are just different points I don’t understand in your post, that’s all.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited August 2018
    @Atama Of course it's still worth discussing mate. Simply believing everything a developer says without question is fanboy-ism and I think as MMORPG gamers, we've had enough of all that. It's through questioning the developers that we start a dialogue and lead the game in a direction that we want. IMO, its the whole reason for having this forum and a discord. 

    I am prejudice against cash shops, I won't deny that at all. It's burned me a lot of times. The grey area comes in the form of various convenience items. Saying the cash shop is not P2W, but selling things like early access, more inv slots, xp boosts, etc. It opens a door which always divides gaming communities into its P2W or not really P2W groups.

    And even if Steven stays true to his word and my instinct tells me he will (don't get me wrong, I want this game to be great), it does not detract from the fact that I don't like CS for the reason's previously stated: it breaks immersion, its promotes ads, it promotes silly garbage like that teddy bear mount, and its unearned gear. And anyone who says "its not your character, what do you care what I'm wearing" can respectfully GTFO. A large part of an MMORPG is decking out your character in cool gear and showing off said gear. It's the reason we have titles and trophies. We want the world to know what we have competed for, what we have achieved... not what we have bought.

    And slightly off topic, I feel we as gamers have been illusioned into thinking cash shop/micro transactions are simply the nature of games in the modern age and that we should just take them for granted, or that it is impossible for a game to stay afloat without them. 

    - soz for wall of text
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