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The Intrepid pack has been significantly devalued

13

Comments

  • Argentdawn said:
    The difference between the LTS and this was direct wording stating exclusive. Your picking and choosing scenarios at this point and I can tell your getting flustered so this will most likely be my final post in this thread.

    This isn't some kind of indictment on Intrepid for breaking their word. It's about how this will look to others looking in on it. Those players we need to attract. Did Intrepid say explicitly you'd only get into alpha one by buying those packs? No. Did they do everything humanly possible to leave us with that impression short of outright confirming it? IMO, yes, they did. Intentionally or otherwise, plenty of backers were left with the distinct impression the only way to play Ashes was to buy into it, and they did in droves.

    I'm not even sure where the idea I'm flustered is coming from. I'm not. People seem to have the opinion this is a tiny or a non-issue, and I obviously think it's a bit more than that. However they are using that subjective value judgment to determine what is an appropriate level of concern.

    That being said, continuing to debate the issue is not going to offer anything more to the team should they read this, so I will close it out here.

    An exclusive is an exclusive is an exclusive. Going forward I would like Intrepid to commit to the highest possible standards of protecting exclusivity, even perceived exclusivity with a reasonable basis for it. It is my firm opinion a major revenue stream for the game as planned depends on it.
  • Gigabear said:
    Argentdawn said:
    Anyone upset by this is either not paying attention to posts and announcements or completely misunderstood what is happening with the upcoming testing. 
    Argentdawn said:
    @Gigabear nowhere in the Kickstarter or the website store does it imply that alpha access is exclusive. 
    To the first point, there was ZERO announcement of any kind given until after sales had closed about even the possibility on non-exclusivity.

    To the second, there was no explicit statement of exclusivity, but they were referred to as "closed" alphas and betas. That 100% is no longer the case.
    Jahlon said:
    There were a lot of points to be made in this thread, but the overwhelming sense of entitlement present in a many of the responses just means anything said is falling on deaf ears (or blind eyes as it were since its a forum)

    Not sure how this helps the discussion along at all, as it seems to be pretty much entirely ad-hominem based solely on your own subjective opinion of the ill-defined concept of what constitutes "entitlement." One would expect a content creator who spends a lot of time voicing their opinions would be fine with others doing the same.
     It helps the discussion by letting people know maybe they need to dial it back a bit because their entitlement is getting in the way of objectivity.

    You will note, however, they I didn't call anyone out by name and I have no problem with people voicing their opinion.   My statement was, and remains, that people have a sense of entitlement that is getting in the way of objective discussion.

    With that said, I actually agree with you on a lot of your fundamental points.  I just disagree with the way you are making your argument.   
  • Jahlon said:
    You will note, however, they I didn't call anyone out by name and I have no problem with people voicing their opinion.   My statement was, and remains, that people have a sense of entitlement that is getting in the way of objective discussion.

    With that said, I actually agree with you on a lot of your fundamental points.  I just disagree with the way you are making your argument.   
    Jahlon. Listen. If I were acting entitled I'd be up in here demanding stuff, and shouting at Steven like he was in any way obligated to give me even a second of his time. I have not done so at all. Not even close. 

    What is it that you think I consider myself entitled to anyway? I have not even asked for any changes to the testing implementation, understanding Intrepid's point of view here and agreeing with their decision on the merits, I just want them to know that when your shop has virtually monetized exclusivity as part of the package on literally every purchase, it's a bad idea to call it into doubt if it can possibly be avoided.


  • To play devil’s advocate, people are entitled to receive something as advertised when it was purchased, and it’s fully justified to feel cheated when they believe that’s not what was received.

    I’m not saying those feelings are always justified, often it’s a matter or interpretation and/or perspective.  But a paying customer has purchased entitlement, so of course they feel some measure of it.  Intrepid is a business after all.
  • Don't have alpha access... Would have liked it but I didn't have the funds... I read this post and I think I side with those that point out that Alpha Phase 2 is still exclusive to those who purchased the Alpha key pack. They are just releasing some BG stuff to push the servers and systems to see what they can handle... I read one that put it in the perspective of an amusement park. I think if you were to use that analogy my come back would be "You buy exclusive access to a park with 10 rides. During your time at the park someone announces that they were moving one of the smaller rides outside the park to allow everyone to enjoy, but you still were the only one with access to the park." For any tester to be upset that they are testing is a bit odd to me. But to each his own. As an outsider looking in I do think this whole post puts a stain on the community a bit. Guys, be happy and excited that they are this far ahead.. Heck I don't think anything is even happening for another four months? 
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    For any tester to be upset that they are testing is a bit odd to me. But to each his own. As an outsider looking in I do think this whole post puts a stain on the community a bit. Guys, be happy and excited that they are this far ahead.. Heck I don't think anything is even happening for another four months? 
    I'm not bothered people are testing. At this point I feel I needed to put the third paragraph of my OP as the first because it seems to be getting skimmed over an awful lot.

    I outright said I agree with Intrepid's decision to do this, and have repeated that sentiment throughout. BUT, the backer packs were sold under the heavily implied condition they would be exclusive to backers at that level.

    The issue isn't that more people are getting in. That's all well and good. The issue is we did not hear this until after sales were closed. I personally would have backed regardless, some others probably would have been ok with just arena mode. But they didn't know that was an option and bought the packs thinking it was the only way in. It was not.

    The exclusivity thing was brought up in discord a bit ago, mostly around the LTS debacle. I am not the only one who worries what effect going back on that stuff will have if it becomes common. I hope this will be the last time, even if it's being done for the good of the game.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Gigabear said:
    For any tester to be upset that they are testing is a bit odd to me. But to each his own. As an outsider looking in I do think this whole post puts a stain on the community a bit. Guys, be happy and excited that they are this far ahead.. Heck I don't think anything is even happening for another four months? 
    I'm not bothered people are testing. At this point I feel I needed to put the third paragraph of my OP as the first because it seems to be getting skimmed over an awful lot.

    I outright said I agree with Intrepid's decision to do this, and have repeated that sentiment throughout. BUT, the backer packs were sold under the heavily implied condition they would be exclusive to backers at that level.

    The issue isn't that more people are getting in. That's all well and good. The issue is we did not hear this until after sales were closed. I personally would have backed regardless, some others probably would have been ok with just arena mode. But they didn't know that was an option and bought the packs thinking it was the only way in. It was not.

    The exclusivity thing was brought up in discord a bit ago, mostly around the LTS debacle. I am not the only one who worries what effect going back on that stuff will have if it becomes common. I hope this will be the last time, even if it's being done for the good of the game.
    I mean it is a debate, so please don't think I am trying to call you out. But I guess I am missing something when I as a non-backer still can't play in Alpha?
  • in reality, nothing did change about any package but they added a extra testing Phase where everyone will be able to join and Crash Servers.


    the exclusivity of the packages remains 100%

  • reaccon said:

    in reality, nothing did change about any package but they added a extra testing Phase where everyone will be able to join and Crash Servers.


    the exclusivity of the packages remains 100%

    That's my opinion on the whole matter.
  • Gigabear said:
    I'm just going to have to agree to disagee because I am in the A1 Testing this week and I, in no way shape or form feel anything has devalued. Testing cycles are not what you should seek exclusivity for nor feel important for. That is what actual cosmetics

    Here's the text from the KS page itself: "Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)"

    Where does that say Alpha is exclusive? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't. They can do what they want with Alpha access..
  • I am not in the A1, but I actually agree that opening to everyone does devalue it slightly. But I would like to point out that your value isn't necessarily gone, but maybe the value has changed.

    From going to purely exclusive, to a major head start plus guarantee of being able to play A1. I can't remember exact times but I believe A1 players will get 4 months before everyone else gets access for a short time. And this period is for stress testing which means it likely will crash, it will lead to people missing lots of times to play and the A1 players will be a lot better and prepared for playing during this period to be top dogs. I realise that's just epeen, but some people like that.

    tl;dr - I agree, but I'm still glad they are doing it and I think its the right thing to do. Though maybe could have advertised a bit clearer about exclusivity, but again that's the harsh reality of marketing.
  • @Gigabear
    I think that if IS released the battle ground mode as a Stress Test after Alpha Access users tested and moved on this wouldn't be an issue at all. Since they are calling it Alpha 1 phase 1 it does become a bit of an issue with me.

    In the end, all the "open access" grants is Battle ground play (from my understanding). So all the other things that we test in Alpha 1 phase 2 are still exclusive... for now.

    IS has done this a few times now, a couple times with KS exclusives and now with Alpha access to battle grounds. IS has mastered word play, I just wish they would start using it before and not after the fact.

    I hope that IS doesn't cave to community demands (if/when they start) for more open access to Alpha 1 phase 2. Not because I don't want the game to be tested as much as possible, but because after reading the forums for the past 4 months a lot of members purchased packages a little out of their comfort zones for Alpha access.

    If Alpha 1 phase 2 access becomes open, then what ever the cost was tied to that access associated with the package you purchased should be refunded. In this example it would be buying a ticket to the amusement park, getting there, and then being told nobody needs to buy tickets.

    I am not advocating for a refund and I am usually the first to point out any paid package was an investment more than a purchase, but I would also not appreciate IS taking advantage of that (at some fictional point in the future).

    I too am glad they are going to use the battle grounds as a stress test environment, that seems like a really good idea.
  • Azathoth said:
    IS has done this a few times now, a couple times with KS exclusives and now with Alpha access to battle grounds. IS has mastered word play, I just wish they would start using it before and not after the fact.

    That right there is more the issue at hand.
  • Flameh0t said:
    Gigabear said:
    I'm just going to have to agree to disagee because I am in the A1 Testing this week and I, in no way shape or form feel anything has devalued. Testing cycles are not what you should seek exclusivity for nor feel important for. That is what actual cosmetics

    Here's the text from the KS page itself: "Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)"

    Where does that say Alpha is exclusive? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't. They can do what they want with Alpha access..
    That is a good point.  There’s nothing even implying exclusivity about testing access.  I know I never assumed it.  Other things were explicitly stated to be exclusive but that never was, again it wasn’t even implied and if you assumed it was then that’s your fault.  Nobody was misled (in this case at least).
  • Atama said:
    Flameh0t said:
    Gigabear said:
    I'm just going to have to agree to disagee because I am in the A1 Testing this week and I, in no way shape or form feel anything has devalued. Testing cycles are not what you should seek exclusivity for nor feel important for. That is what actual cosmetics

    Here's the text from the KS page itself: "Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)"

    Where does that say Alpha is exclusive? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't. They can do what they want with Alpha access..
    That is a good point.  There’s nothing even implying exclusivity about testing access.  I know I never assumed it.  Other things were explicitly stated to be exclusive but that never was, again it wasn’t even implied and if you assumed it was then that’s your fault.  Nobody was misled (in this case at least).
    Mmmm really? I think, just in general, if access to something is sold than that in itself implies that access must be bought.. Granted, that may not be the right conclusion but to say it should definitely not be implied? I think not..
  • Beolupus said:
    Atama said:
    Flameh0t said:
    Gigabear said:
    I'm just going to have to agree to disagee because I am in the A1 Testing this week and I, in no way shape or form feel anything has devalued. Testing cycles are not what you should seek exclusivity for nor feel important for. That is what actual cosmetics

    Here's the text from the KS page itself: "Invite to Closed Alpha - Phase 1 (Earliest Access to Ashes!)"

    Where does that say Alpha is exclusive? I'll give you a hint, it doesn't. They can do what they want with Alpha access..
    That is a good point.  There’s nothing even implying exclusivity about testing access.  I know I never assumed it.  Other things were explicitly stated to be exclusive but that never was, again it wasn’t even implied and if you assumed it was then that’s your fault.  Nobody was misled (in this case at least).
    Mmmm really? I think, just in general, if access to something is sold than that in itself implies that access must be bought.. Granted, that may not be the right conclusion but to say it should definitely not be implied? I think not..
    That’s never true.  If I buy a ticket for a sporting event I don’t assume that they won’t give any tickets away for charity or to people who win a contest.  You should never automatically assume that.  Hell, you can sell dirt and water to people for crying out loud.  The only thing that can be inferred from a person selling something is that the seller has some expectation that someone else would buy it.

    Now when Intrepid was selling lifetime subs that said “Kickstarter exclusive” next to them, that’s a different subject that has been gone over many times already.  But again, testing access was never stated nor implied and if you assumed it was exclusive that just shows foolishness if I have to be honest.

    I’m not just being an Intrepid fanboy here, they’ve made mistakes like this before and should be held accountable when they do so.  Aside from the lifetime sub issue they also stated that Alpha 1 was the earliest access to Ashes, and advertised packages including Alpha 1 access as such.  Then they have Alpha 0 which took place months before Alpha 1.  False advertising, broken promises?  Of course, any reasonable person would conclude as much.  Is it a big deal though?  Not to me, I assume Alpha 0 was extremely limited both in terms of how much time you got to play and how much gameplay was available.  So I personally don’t get worked up over it.  But it is another example of them offering something that’s false and it is troubling.

    Complaining about a brief open and limited Alpha 1 is just inventing controversy though.  There’s nothing to complain about.
  • @Atama But in this case.. its more like they gave all the remaining tickets away for free.. It's not quite the same.

    Also, I'm not worked up really. And I don't think anyone in this thread is asking for some sort of refund or hand out. We all realize that this stress test is whats ultimately best for the game. This all more just the principle of the matter, and something to keep an eye on going forward. The fact that we may feel we need to read the fine print on these sorts of offers is unfortunate when we all want to put 100% trust in these developers.
  • Beolupus said:
    @Atama But in this case.. its more like they gave all the remaining tickets away for free.. It's not quite the same.

    Also, I'm not worked up really. And I don't think anyone in this thread is asking for some sort of refund or hand out. We all realize that this stress test is whats ultimately best for the game. This all more just the principle of the matter, and something to keep an eye on going forward. The fact that we may feel we need to read the fine print on these sorts of offers is unfortunate when we all want to put 100% trust in these developers.
    I think more worrisome, for myself at least, is that there’s no fine print to read.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    alright, i still dont get why its devalued? because "everyone" who supports the game, by joining the community will allowed to enter a certain amount of time - which was aditionally added - to the alpha 1 phase 1?

    Quote from the Mail:
    Alpha1 Phase 1 - Battlegrounds Mode
    • September: Alpha 1 Testing Begins
    • October: This game mode is released as a bonus to our community ahead of Q4

    so this is one seperate Test which "is released as a bonus to our community ahead of Q4" which wouldnt even be there in reality since originally the alpha test was planned to start during Q4 of 2018.

    I really dont get the point of the whole discussion at all, since from the start this argument was simply invalid. period.

    NONE of us, neither backers nor non-backers would be able to do any testing, if they  (IS) didnt work as fast as they do and actually start the initial Alpha 1 quater earlier.
    So please, somebody give me a legit argument to make me understand where and how we lost any exclusivity AT ALL?! 


    ** update: to me personally this just looks like a filler to fill out this loophole of trashtalking, just cause everyones bored. My.com complains got boring, so i guess we need another Topic to hop on. Cant wait to get into alpha, so i dont have enough time to actually take a look into the forums.
  • reaccon said:
    alright, i still dont get why its devalued? because "everyone" who supports the game, by joining the community will allowed to enter a certain amount of time - which was aditionally added - to the alpha 1 phase 1?

    Quote from the Mail:
    Alpha1 Phase 1 - Battlegrounds Mode
    • September: Alpha 1 Testing Begins
    • October: This game mode is released as a bonus to our community ahead of Q4

    so this is one seperate Test which "is released as a bonus to our community ahead of Q4" which wouldnt even be there in reality since originally the alpha test was planned to start during Q4 of 2018.

    I really dont get the point of the whole discussion at all, since from the start this argument was simply invalid. period.

    NONE of us, neither backers nor non-backers would be able to do any testing, if they  (IS) didnt work as fast as they do and actually start the initial Alpha 1 quater earlier.
    So please, somebody give me a legit argument to make me understand where and how we lost any exclusivity AT ALL?! 


    ** update: to me personally this just looks like a filler to fill out this loophole of trashtalking, just cause everyones bored. My.com complains got boring, so i guess we need another Topic to hop on. Cant wait to get into alpha, so i dont have enough time to actually take a look into the forums.
    I already tried this logic earlier in the thread, and the OP just dismissed it. 
  • reaccon said:
    ** update: to me personally this just looks like a filler to fill out this loophole of trashtalking, just cause everyones bored. My.com complains got boring, so i guess we need another Topic to hop on. Cant wait to get into alpha, so i dont have enough time to actually take a look into the forums.
    Pretty much this.  I mean, to be fair I don’t see the OP as going ballistic on IS or calling them scam artists or anything, but I don’t even see why there’s a reason to be even mildly concerned about this.  There are other things to complain about if you really feel the need without making something up.
  • I think its a good idea to open up the game to everyone limiting this access to the game modes once they have been tested by the paid Alpha 1 patrons. It is a clever marketing play especially for the first Battle Royale mode that is so popular at the moment in the gaming world. It will attract the attention of many that might not normally play MMORPG or even understand the game genre.

    I just hope the clock countdown for open Alpha for each mode only starts once the last paid closed Alpha patron has access to the mode. As access A1P1 is based on when the package was bought it might be frustrating to get access to the mode only to find the access is open very shortly after.
  • Well,  from a moral standpoint in defending their decisions,  I'd say they gave us PLENTY of time to invest in the "goods," so if you ain't happy...buck off....But thanks! Bards Rule! O'Doyle sucks!..
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Atama said:
    Pretty much this.  I mean, to be fair I don’t see the OP as going ballistic on IS or calling them scam artists or anything, but I don’t even see why there’s a reason to be even mildly concerned about this.

    I have given my reason several times. It is simply that exclusivity is key to their business model, mainly in the shop, and if this sort of thing happens often it will have people not wanting to invest in those exclusive items.

    Some have said no exclusivity was stated. This is true, but the SPIRIT of what we were being told and heard gave all indications there was. More importantly, it isn't about convincing people if exclusivity was actually violated, but ensuring that going forward nobody even has cause to wonder if it was at all.
  • ArchivedUserArchivedUser Guest
    edited September 2018
    Disregard, the odd double post problem...
  • Gigabear said:
    Atama said:
    Pretty much this.  I mean, to be fair I don’t see the OP as going ballistic on IS or calling them scam artists or anything, but I don’t even see why there’s a reason to be even mildly concerned about this.

    I have given my reason several times. It is simply that exclusivity is key to their business model, mainly in the shop, and if this sort of thing happens often it will have people not wanting to invest in those exclusive items.

    Some have said no exclusivity was stated. This is true, but the SPIRIT of what we were being told and heard gave all indications there was. More importantly, it isn't about convincing people if exclusivity was actually violated, but ensuring that going forward nobody even has cause to wonder if it was at all.
    I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the term “the exception that proves the rule” or how it gets applied in real life.  If a sign says that a street has no parking from 5AM to 7PM, the implication is that parking is allowed all other hours (and that’s a principle frequently applied in legal cases).  The Kickstarter had the same principle in play; the fact that some items were marked as being exclusive to Kickstarter implies that those that weren’t marked were not exclusive.

    So again, your reason is invalid.  You are just factually incorrect with your statements.  There was no violation, either in letter or spirit, and on the contrary if you could infer anything it was that items not marked as exclusive weren’t exclusive.  Are you asking that Intrepid put a mark next to things that aren’t exclusive to indicate that fact?  Because at this point that seems to be the only thing they can do to satisfy your concerns.  And a request like that seems unreasonable.

    That’s like demanding that a restaurant that has a menu with certain items marked “gluten free” mark other items as “may contain gluten”. If you don’t have the common sense to figure it out for yourself then I have no sympathy for you. 
  • Atama said:
    So again, your reason is invalid.  You are just factually incorrect with your statements.  There was no violation, either in letter or spirit, and on the contrary if you could infer anything it was that items not marked as exclusive weren’t exclusive. 
    The alpha was literally marked CLOSED. It is now OPEN, at least in part. You seem to be trying to convince me I have no basis at all for thinking it would be backers only. That's totally silly. 

    Even if you succeeded it would be pointless. Because I would have backed anyway. I'm still in Intrepid's corner as it were. But I will tell you, this is the second time. If it happens again there will be people who are far less reasonable than I am in how they react. Hence why I am saying at this time that Intrepid must value exclusivity going forward more than they have.

    It must be immutable, or they should get out of the business of doing exclusive stuff entirely. I would actually suggest the later, since it will allow them to re release things at a later point and end up making more money per asset. 
  • Gigabear said:
    Atama said:
    So again, your reason is invalid.  You are just factually incorrect with your statements.  There was no violation, either in letter or spirit, and on the contrary if you could infer anything it was that items not marked as exclusive weren’t exclusive. 
    The alpha was literally marked CLOSED. It is now OPEN, at least in part. You seem to be trying to convince me I have no basis at all for thinking it would be backers only. That's totally silly. 
    It is totally silly.  There is still a backers-only closed alpha.  They added a brief open one in addition but it doesn’t make the closed alpha less of a closed alpha and by buying that package you would have access to it.  Nothing implied or stated was broken.  You’d have a point if Alpha 1 was now open to everyone but it’s not, just a brief and limited portion of it.
  • Gigabear said:

    Even if you succeeded it would be pointless. Because I would have backed anyway. I'm still in Intrepid's corner as it were. But I will tell you, this is the second time. If it happens again there will be people who are far less reasonable than I am in how they react. Hence why I am saying at this time that Intrepid must value exclusivity going forward more than they have.

    It must be immutable, or they should get out of the business of doing exclusive stuff entirely. I would actually suggest the later, since it will allow them to re release things at a later point and end up making more money per asset. 
    The funny thing is that I consider the lifetime sub to be the first strike and Alpha 0 to be the second.  Which means I also hold them accountable and have the same concerns.  It’s just that the open alpha event isn’t a good example because they didn’t violate anything that time, that’s the only disagreement I think we have.

    But yes, if they are going to get people to buy things with the premise that those items can’t be otherwise acquired, then offer them again in another way, that is slimy.  I really hope they don’t operate the Embers shop that way.
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