Outnumbered

ArchivedUser

15 years ago I started playing mmorpgs.

I looked clips of players in the open world beating an enemy player of the same level/gear.

Some times a player would beat TWO enemy players of the same level/gear
Killing THREE enemies was impossible unless mobs get involved.
I would watch these videos and say this guy is good AT HIS CLASS.

I look at mmorpg PvP clips not and I see one player taking out 5-10 enemies of same level/gear and Im like... meh... broken combat.

Do we want this for AoC? Do we want a combat system in which meta can create massive differences?
Take a certwim class with a certain weapon and certain armor and certain skills and become unkillable due to great resource sustainability?
Wont this make build variety an illusion?

This is what I will be focusing on as soon as the tests reach that point.

What do you think?

ArchivedUser

I can understand why you might think AOC might be heading down that route due to the footage showing players dying in just a few hits. I think the footage was taken from a scenario they set up to show their fast paced action combat where the players had lowered health and armor. I think when the characters are a little more durable it will be much more difficult to beat a 3 on 1 scenario. You're totally right if the combat at release is the same pace as the clips we have seen so far though.

ArchivedUser

Yeah, they should have been stronger on the disclaimers about the combat in the videos. Steven has stated that the combat in the Battle Royale mode that is being tested right now is sped up. The TTC (time to kill) in the actual game will be much slower. What they want right now is fast turnover on kills and abilities to generate data for stability. We have another statement from them that this A1P1 BR is not about balance. I can tell you that currently there are two meta weapons that everyone loves to use over others and it is known by everyone new within a few matches when you get owned by someone with a spear or headshot from line of sight away with a bow that balance was not going to be the point. That being said it is a ton of fun, and plays just as well or better than many BR out there. But it is just that, a testing phase for different metrics they are looking for, not what the players are looking for. Balance and the actual TTC will come later and feedback will be more important on those issues then.

ArchivedUser

This discussion is irrelevant with the current clips.
It is more about realistic survivability vs broken combat seen in other mmorpgs.

Again I did not open this discussion based on anything in AoC.

ArchivedUser

I'm not a fan of the rock-paper-scissors meta, unless the advantages each class has over another is limited. I'd rather see good balance across the board with an emphasis placed on how damage/healing/resilience is achieved within each class.

I also wouldn't mind a high bar for competence for combat. Easily achieved attacks should be less effective than those that are more difficult to aim, time, or execute correctly. The same should apply to heals, utility, and resilience.

If that results in a highly skilled player holding five low skilled players at bay, then that would be a testament to the vast skill gap between the players involved.

I am aware of some games in which a mediocre player in a certain class can crush good players of another class. I'm not fond of that, and hope not to see that silliness replicated in AoC.

ArchivedUser

Become a Summoner problem solved

ArchivedUser

We saw Battle Royale combat and I expect health to be lowered in BR, otherwise we would have neverending matches.

I don't like 1 person being able to kill 10, but there has to be a mechanic in place to balance zergs. If 1 is always equal to 1, then zergs clearly win.

A skilled player should be able to take out 3-4 players on his own if he plays well.

ArchivedUser

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

ArchivedUser

I'd also add...

- Insane mechanics for a single class

Call it what one will but there are some unfair mechanics that appear in PvP, and in recent games.

ESO had that stealth thing.. going on.. People were chain killing groups of enemy players without too much of an issue. I have no first hand experience with this as I didn't play the game, but there are a million youtube videos showing it.

An older game, WAR Online had the Goblin Shaman.. A ranged dps class with healing, in-combat run speed buff, and a 'get out of trouble' ability.. There was one goblin shaman that would take out anyone that engaged him, including up to a full raid of people.. People were stubborn and kept chasing him.. and they were die..

Anyway, it's not really the player but the character that just happened to have the perfect skillset that allows them to pull off something no other class can.

"Skilled" is overused in these games.. Very few players are Skilled, but they do have some combination of mechanics that can be abused; exploiting or not.. Call it, again, what you will...

[Note: I'm saying exploit in the intentional use, or result, of a combination of mechanics that is outside the spirit of the game's average baseline]

ArchivedUser

nagash said:

Become a Summoner problem solved

Not the most exciting choice of class

ArchivedUser

akmaa said:

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

+ unbalanced skills

+ exploits

ArchivedUser

I appreciate the spirit of what you are trying to say, but it really depends on their combat mechanics....which we have no clue about yet.

For instance, if they have a counter system that reflects 0-100% damage back at the attacker, even the most OP legendary gear would be rendered redundant against a genuinely skilled player.

And vs 10 players who did not know how to counter 1 combat expert, who did know how to counter the other 10 builds......why not 1v10 ?

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

akmaa said:

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

+ unbalanced skills

+ exploits

If there are a class/classes which is clearly much stronger than the rest, and you aren't playing that one, that's fits into the "noob" category.

Exploits should be simply reported, and fixed, that ain't something that matter either. If it's really a exploit then it will be fixed, and the exploiters banned.

ArchivedUser

Rune_Relic said:

akmaa said:

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

+ unbalanced skills

+ exploits

If there are a class/classes which is clearly much stronger than the rest, and you aren't playing that one, that's fits into the "noob" category.

Exploits should be simply reported, and fixed, that ain't something that matter either. If it's really a exploit then it will be fixed, and the exploiters banned.

ArchivedUser

akmaa said:

Rune_Relic said:

akmaa said:

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

+ unbalanced skills

+ exploits

If there are a class/classes which is clearly much stronger than the rest, and you aren't playing that one, that's fits into the "noob" category.

Exploits should be simply reported, and fixed, that ain't something that matter either. If it's really a exploit then it will be fixed, and the exploiters banned.

So you preffer a skilled player take out 5-10 enemies of the same gear/lv as opposed to

a skilled player taking out 2-3 enemies of the same gear/lv.


The factor of SKILL was never in question.
The point of this topic is what's best for the health of the combat system.

ArchivedUser

gb1990gaming said:

So you preffer a skilled player take out 5-10 enemies of the same gear/lv as opposed to

a skilled player taking out 2-3 enemies of the same gear/lv.


The factor of SKILL was never in question.
The point of this topic is what's best for the health of the combat system.

A group should be more than the sum of its parts.
Any single player should not be able to do everything.

 I assume IS will have a function determining how many average players a group of highly skilled players should be able to take on.

I would like to see something like:
Skilled -> average
1 -> 2
2 -> 5
3 -> 9
4 -> 14
5 -> 20

ArchivedUser

A highly skilled neckbeard SHOULD be able to take on 2 or 3 casuals.

That's how you know the game has a decent skill cap.

But yes, I do prefer steady, tactical combat to the One-Shot Everything meta.

ArchivedUser

One thing I hope for is the ability to know nothing about another player except by looking at their clothing and carried gear... That way Mr Nub-scrub-ganker will question if he wants to randomly attack someone unprovoked or not.

"Are they my level? high? Lower?" None of this /con, "ohhh hes 5 levels below. Perfect to gank and camp!" Crap. To me, that isn't pvp... That's just someone with unresolved RL issues.. haha.. But.. I'd love to see the face on Mr Nub-scrub... **Fires arrow at target**, **Health of target move only a pinch**, *Mr Scrub knows he's in trouble as the target turns around**..

ArchivedUser

Shoklen said:

One thing I hope for is the ability to know nothing about another player except by looking at their clothing and carried gear... That way Mr Nub-scrub-ganker will question if he wants to randomly attack someone unprovoked or not.

"Are they my level? high? Lower?" None of this /con, "ohhh hes 5 levels below. Perfect to gank and camp!" Crap. To me, that isn't pvp... That's just someone with unresolved RL issues.. haha.. But.. I'd love to see the face on Mr Nub-scrub... **Fires arrow at target**, **Health of target move only a pinch**, *Mr Scrub knows he's in trouble as the target turns around**..

You described the people I love to be around I LOVE hearing them squeel like pigs as I drive my sword into their chest and make them regret trying to pick on someone smaller. Such a wonderful feeling! I purposely place myself in their way (especially with the system I am seeing where the first person to strike is the only one to get penalized) so I can take their stuff they most likely took from others.

ArchivedUser

Shoklen said:

One thing I hope for is the ability to know nothing about another player except by looking at their clothing and carried gear... That way Mr Nub-scrub-ganker will question if he wants to randomly attack someone unprovoked or not.

"Are they my level? high? Lower?" None of this /con, "ohhh hes 5 levels below. Perfect to gank and camp!" Crap. To me, that isn't pvp... That's just someone with unresolved RL issues.. haha.. But.. I'd love to see the face on Mr Nub-scrub... **Fires arrow at target**, **Health of target move only a pinch**, *Mr Scrub knows he's in trouble as the target turns around**..

Yes this dude hit the nail on the head! Please don't allow levels to be shown. It adds more to the community if you have to ask the player what level they are instead of having a big glowing number above your head! I want to be able to tell your a badass by knowing what kind of weapon and armor you have. Although it would be ok to have a setting where you could display your level if you wanted to. You know options and such. 

ArchivedUser

Bink said:

Shoklen said:

One thing I hope for is the ability to know nothing about another player except by looking at their clothing and carried gear... That way Mr Nub-scrub-ganker will question if he wants to randomly attack someone unprovoked or not.

"Are they my level? high? Lower?" None of this /con, "ohhh hes 5 levels below. Perfect to gank and camp!" Crap. To me, that isn't pvp... That's just someone with unresolved RL issues.. haha.. But.. I'd love to see the face on Mr Nub-scrub... **Fires arrow at target**, **Health of target move only a pinch**, *Mr Scrub knows he's in trouble as the target turns around**..

Yes this dude hit the nail on the head! Please don't allow levels to be shown. It adds more to the community if you have to ask the player what level they are instead of having a big glowing number above your head! I want to be able to tell your a badass by knowing what kind of weapon and armor you have. Although it would be ok to have a setting where you could display your level if you wanted to. You know options and such. 

I would love for this to be a thing !! But some how don't see it happening its just such a mainstream thing to display information about your character nowadays.

ArchivedUser

EnderOfSouls said:

I would love for this to be a thing !! But some how don't see it happening its just such a mainstream thing to display information about your character nowadays.

Im glad you think its a good idea too! If they want to promote a closer knit community they should be doing everything they can to create interaction. I can't think of a reason why it should display your level. 

ArchivedUser

In Star Wars Galaxies there were no levels.  There was very little variety in terms of gear.  You had no idea how strong an opponent was until you fought them.  It was pretty cool.

ArchivedUser

Costumes and transmog are going to be things so it will not be feasible to except to tell how strong someone is by the appearance of their gear.

ArchivedUser

akmaa said:

Rune_Relic said:

akmaa said:

Taking out 5-10 players in any of the current mmorpg is only possible if:

-there are extreme gear differences

-the enemies are extremely noob

That's all the possibilities, and noone of them matter really, as it's entirely the opponent's fault.

+ unbalanced skills

+ exploits

If there are a class/classes which is clearly much stronger than the rest, and you aren't playing that one, that's fits into the "noob" category.

Exploits should be simply reported, and fixed, that ain't something that matter either. If it's really a exploit then it will be fixed, and the exploiters banned.

A class much stronger than the rest ??? Is broken. All you get then is everyone playing that class because IWIN and playing anything else is pointless.

ArchivedUser

I agree with the notion that no info should be available.
It ruins PvP
Creates elitism in PvE

ArchivedUser

... and for all that is good and holy in the world.. no 'gear score' please... "Ohh you only have a score of 1375?! We need someone with a score of 1413, tough luck!" Gear scores were never needed in early mmos, and no real reason to need them in current mmos outside elitism.

Pinch off topic, I know but it kind of relates...

ArchivedUser

Shoklen said:

... and for all that is good and holy in the world.. no 'gear score' please... "Ohh you only have a score of 1375?! We need someone with a score of 1413, tough luck!" Gear scores were never needed in early mmos, and no real reason to need them in current mmos outside elitism.

Pinch off topic, I know but it kind of relates...

Depending on the game, there needs to be a way of identifying how strong another player is, so you don't waste your time with someone super under geared or under leveled. You might think it is elitism, but it really isn't 99% of the time. You are literally INCAPABLE of running certain content without certain levels of gear. You ever heard of a DPS check? Yea, if you don't have at least the bare minimum required gear, I will quickly remove you from the group and not feel bad.

ArchivedUser

whitedude31 said:

Shoklen said:

... and for all that is good and holy in the world.. no 'gear score' please... "Ohh you only have a score of 1375?! We need someone with a score of 1413, tough luck!" Gear scores were never needed in early mmos, and no real reason to need them in current mmos outside elitism.

Pinch off topic, I know but it kind of relates...

Depending on the game, there needs to be a way of identifying how strong another player is, so you don't waste your time with someone super under geared or under leveled. You might think it is elitism, but it really isn't 99% of the time. You are literally INCAPABLE of running certain content without certain levels of gear. You ever heard of a DPS check? Yea, if you don't have at least the bare minimum required gear, I will quickly remove you from the group and not feel bad.

How about you join a guild to clear content
Why go with randoms?
And if your guild members are undergeared how about you do smthg meaningful and help them gear up instead of running the same instanced dungeon for the 10000th time to score 2 points more than last time.
Never in open world mmorpgs there was a need for dps check. 

ArchivedUser

[Moved my post to the new conversation that's more on topic..]

ArchivedUser

#alpha