@whitedude31 you cought me skimming! This is the last time I post while at work! Sorry for the mishap and I'm glad to see you also want a hybrid system!
Sounds like both styles will be in the game in one form or another... and it sounds like the linked skills between both styles will be different... that sounds fine to me. Play twitch if you want, play tab if you want; dose not mean all skills will be available for both play targeting styles...
Example: 40 person raid.. or castle siege.. tons of players on the screen running around like chickens without heads.. add effects that would make JJ Abrams blush... now use twitch based healing..
I trust their vision for combat and look forward to learning it. I really enjoy action combat too, however, there is a lot of fun to be had in tab target combat as well. I hope that what they come up with is satisfying to everyone! Can't please everyone though I suppose. *shrug*
Sounds like both styles will be in the game in one form or another... and it sounds like the linked skills between both styles will be different... that sounds fine to me. Play twitch if you want, play tab if you want; dose not mean all skills will be available for both play targeting styles...
Example: 40 person raid.. or castle siege.. tons of players on the screen running around like chickens without heads.. add effects that would make JJ Abrams blush... now use twitch based healing..
Tera . . . Nexus . . . Hundreds of people . . . I know full well what that can be like. I also main a priest in pvp arenas like corsairs and have no problems healing there with 40 people I mean the xbox one x can handle it decently well as well, so as long as you have a mediocre PC, healing should not be a problem.
and just to be clear I'm not talking about the exact action combat from the stress tests, have 2-3 abilities would be boring after a few hours. I'm talking about something similar to Black Desert where you hit key combos to attack instead of just hitting tab and 1-9
Yeah... that was the biggest reason for me to give BDO a pass. Took one look at the key combos and jumped off the hype train. I would absolutely hate to see that nonsense in AoC.
with the hybrid system I can make one mainly action and another character mainly tab targeting and switch between them if by some chance one gets stale. their current idea and direction sounds perfect in every way. /fanboyoff
The 75/25 max would only cause both sides to be unhappy, which would be the worst case, that one could achieve.
I disagree. I'd would be immensely surprised if any significant amount of people would be unhappy having at least some of both kinds mixed in. I could be wrong, but I believe that very few people are that anal-retentive about their controls.
And since when was it popular opinion that BDO combat sucks? Just because they went total P2W and people are finally dropping that pointless grind-fest doesn't mean that it didn't have some of the most unique, dynamic (arguably to a fault), borderline revolutionary combat of any MMO to date. The systems and mechanics were polished, extremely skill-based, and would have been amazing if they actually had a game to go with it. Slow movement speed down, add actual dungeon/raid/anykindofend-gamebesidesworldbossesthatareessentiallydailyquests, maybe throw in a bit more build diversity (and nerf the **** out of witches/wizards) and you'd get a game that a lot of people, myself included, would still be playing.
Well then you will be surprised.
I you FORCE players to do something that they don't like, then they will don't like the whole game.
Even if it's only 25%, peoples tend to feel the bad parts bigger than they are, so even if it's only 25% action combat, it's more than enough to drop the whole game cause it.
Or they simply not use those abilities. If they won't be important, then it will be ok, otherwise they won't going to like the combat.
Also bdo's combat suck, very very hard. It's awful, and it's hard to believe that anyone above a 9yo kid's mental level would like it... Well I don't expect otherwise from someone who think that combat like that require any skill.
Action based combat is very forgiving. The abilities are spammable, and there are loots of cheap movement/avoidance/cc ability, so even if you make a bad move, you always have a oh shit button ready, which is good for the dumb, but ain't require much skill otherwise.
Try to win without having spammable moving/avoidance abilities, purely by predicting your oppenent's next moves. That's what requires skill, and that's what most can't do...
A good mmo combat is more like chess than a shooter. You maybe ain't need to aim, but you need to think ahead. You can't just brainlessly use all your cooldowns, and hope for the best.
Though most player will do that, but most player are noob, so it ain't something to be surprised.
The 75/25 max would only cause both sides to be unhappy, which would be the worst case, that one could achieve.
I disagree. I'd would be immensely surprised if any significant amount of people would be unhappy having at least some of both kinds mixed in. I could be wrong, but I believe that very few people are that anal-retentive about their controls.
And since when was it popular opinion that BDO combat sucks? Just because they went total P2W and people are finally dropping that pointless grind-fest doesn't mean that it didn't have some of the most unique, dynamic (arguably to a fault), borderline revolutionary combat of any MMO to date. The systems and mechanics were polished, extremely skill-based, and would have been amazing if they actually had a game to go with it. Slow movement speed down, add actual dungeon/raid/anykindofend-gamebesidesworldbossesthatareessentiallydailyquests, maybe throw in a bit more build diversity (and nerf the **** out of witches/wizards) and you'd get a game that a lot of people, myself included, would still be playing.
Well then you will be surprised.
I you FORCE players to do something that they don't like, then they will don't like the whole game.
Even if it's only 25%, peoples tend to feel the bad parts bigger than they are, so even if it's only 25% action combat, it's more than enough to drop the whole game cause it.
Or they simply not use those abilities. If they won't be important, then it will be ok, otherwise they won't going to like the combat.
Also bdo's combat suck, very very hard. It's awful, and it's hard to believe that anyone above a 9yo kid's mental level would like it... Well I don't expect otherwise from someone who think that combat like that require any skill.
Action based combat is very forgiving. The abilities are spammable, and there are loots of cheap movement/avoidance/cc ability, so even if you make a bad move, you always have a oh shit button ready, which is good for the dumb, but ain't require much skill otherwise.
Try to win without having spammable moving/avoidance abilities, purely by predicting your oppenent's next moves. That's what requires skill, and that's what most can't do...
A good mmo combat is more like chess than a shooter. You maybe ain't need to aim, but you need to think ahead. You can't just brainlessly use all your cooldowns, and hope for the best.
Though most player will do that, but most player are noob, so it ain't something to be surprised.
I'm gonna disagree about saying bdo combat is for 9 year olds (unless we talking about the 9 year old army).
I did find the combat tiresome for pve content, but for pvp it was a blast. In the all the tab target games I played I just learned the sequence for my skills and that was it. If I got hit with a debuff I just hit this button and that got boring. I didnt really mind it, but the best part about tab target only is really trying to devise the right set of skills. Loved doing builds in gw.
But a combination of both is the best way to go, so long as it can be pulled off properly.
I agree. I love action combat so much more than tab target. Action just brings more variables and allows for a much higher skill ceiling than anything tab target can bring.
Mostly though because I just don't feel they are going to be able to balance it out correctly. Kinda like how Keyboard users (action combat) are so much quicker and fluid than controller users (tab target) and those two playstyles needing to be separated in FPS style games. Controllers just can't keep up with keyboard and mouse users. I feel its going to be the same for tab target not being able to keep up with action combat users.
I hear there will be certain pro's and con's regarding which modality (TT / AC) you use. For example, I heard that whether, say, you get shot in the head with an arrow, or shot in the chest, your gear pieces pertaining to the head or body will constitute to the damage you receive.
So while TT may be easier to tag your target, AC may have it's benefits since you are able to aim for specific parts. I like this. Options options options!
Limitations will only bring the game down, IMO. How can the game be groundbreaking, innovative and game-changing (like we're ALL hoping it will be) if we the players are locked in to a specific combat style? It'll be just another BDO at that point (sans the horrid Asian-style RNG system) and NO ONE wants that in AoC.
I hear there will be certain pro's and con's regarding which modality (TT / AC) you use. For example, I heard that whether, say, you get shot in the head with an arrow, or shot in the chest, your gear pieces pertaining to the head or body will constitute to the damage you receive.
So while TT may be easier to tag your target, AC may have it's benefits since you are able to aim for specific parts. I like this. Options options options!
Limitations will only bring the game down, IMO. How can the game be groundbreaking, innovative and game-changing (like we're ALL hoping it will be) if we the players are locked in to a specific combat style? It'll be just another BDO at that point (sans the horrid Asian-style RNG system) and NO ONE wants that in AoC.
Developers have a very very hard time balancing classes as it is. This goes for just about every game in existence, between champions in LoL, guns in FPS games and Battle Royales like Fortnite and MMORPGs especially between PvP and PvE.
Now Ashes is going to make that even harder by having to do balance for all the classes between PvP/PvE and adding a whole new element by adding two distinctly different combat styles on top of the already challenging job of balancing.
and just to be clear I'm not talking about the exact action combat from the stress tests, have 2-3 abilities would be boring after a few hours. I'm talking about something similar to Black Desert where you hit key combos to attack instead of just hitting tab and 1-9
For those that have never played Black Desert a example of a combo ability would be hitting f key +shift to cast a fireball followed by the right mouse button to make it explode. It really makes combat a lot more fun.
I played BDO for over a year. Nearly hit soft-capped gear, quit at 92% to level 62. Reasons NOT to make AoC combat a BDO clone:
1) Greatly reduces in-fight STRATEGY (PvP) - This is BDO combat in a nut-shell = Try to land CC > i-frame and/or block and/or Super Armor/Frontal Block > Try to land CC > i-frame / mitigate > Try to land CC > Try to land CC > Try to land CC > land CC > one shot CC'd opponent. WOW HOW FUN!!! In BDO, damage is the ONLY viable build. DP (defensive power) sits in the back of the bus behind accuracy and evasion. Fighting-game combat, like found in BDO, reduces build options, strategy and teamwork, hence everyone gunning for that precious AP (attack power), only hitting typical DP milestones.
2) Greatly reduces in-fight STRATEGY (PvE) - Imagine a raid or dungeon in BDO. Sounds pretty cool right? Fun combat mechanics, right? WRONG (least from a true MMORPG standpoint). The reason you don't see dungeons in BDO, like you see in almost all MMORPG's, is because it simply WOULD NOT WORK with BDO's combat system. Dungeons would be a hack-and-slash gamut, not a true MMORPG experience where Tanks are needed to aggro hard-hitting enemies, Healers/Buffers are needed to keep the group going, and DPS' to make everyone's hard-work worth it. BDO combat does not allow this. It will be a hack-and-slash dungeon, just kill everything and de-aggro when doing too much DPS, with minimal heals just in case. Just look at World Bosses and see how they go. Can you not see how lame this would be in AoC, aka an ACTUAL MMORPG?
3) Caters to a specific audience - One of the beauty's of MMORPG's is that the genre can pull people together from many different ways of life. BDO is disliked by many because the combat system is purely fighting-game-esque. I think it's fun (hell, I've played and spent way too much time and money), but that doesn't mean Fred or Nancy over there think so. What of the Support minded-players? What of the strategists who rather survey and solve what's going on, instead of focusing on button mashing? Those types have NO PLACE IN BDO, and it is because of the combat system. It's a damage-based slug fest. Leave brain at front door, instincts only required. NO THANKS, NOT IN AoC!
4) It'll be a CC game - BDO combat, while fun, is severely shallow, which I've found after hours upon hours of PvPing. BDO's combat boils down to who can CC first. And if you get CC'd, you pray to the RNG gods their AP is low enough so you don't get one-shot while CC'd. Strategy in 1v1 = CC, don't get CC'd, bait and react fast. Strategy in Mass PvP = Have a large group (recruit another guild if needed), stick with group, hope to win skirmishes, if you win, attack key parts of their base (barricades, hwatchas, flame towers) until you have an opening to the tower, hit tower, time enemy respawn, exit enemy base when they respawn, zerg enemy when they group up again ("P.A. P.A. P.A.! Wiz/Witches ON MY PING!!! P FUCKING A!!!!" - Shot-caller), rinse repeat. If lose skirmishes, "I'm respawning in 20 seconds, respawn in 20, 19, 18..." - Shot-caller, try to spawn at the same time, regroup, try to kill off the zerg (you probably won't), and if you do, rinse and repeat winning skirmish.
BDO is so fxing stupid. Fun. But painfully STUPID. #Facts.
Bdo also used to have relevant eva, acc and dp builds before the dev team ruined them. They will probably bring them back once everyone is full ap to milk more money from players.
Also your view for bdo combat is very shallow. Youre not thinking at all about the mechanics in the combat but how they were carried out by a bad developer. You should also separate gearing options and combat, as you can have bdo combat without bdo gear. Like skills with movement, skills that alter depending on previous and next skill.
The cc mechanics are a good point and I think from all the games Ive played so far WoW had the best cc balance. Ccs had high cd or were difficult to pull out and there were cc breakers/counters with high cds.
Mostly though because I just don't feel they are going to be able to balance it out correctly. Kinda like how Keyboard users (action combat) are so much quicker and fluid than controller users (tab target) and those two playstyles needing to be separated in FPS style games. Controllers just can't keep up with keyboard and mouse users. I feel its going to be the same for tab target not being able to keep up with action combat users.
Alright, you lost me here. What are you talking about?
What does tab-target have to do with controllers? Why is action combat associated with keyboard use, but not tab-target? I am genuinely confused here.
guys, lets be clear. Tab target was great for 10 years ago. Only reason why people still like it is because WoW. Once wow disappear, tab targetting will die with it. Also, there are great options for healers like the targetting on tera that feels too good. Renew yourself as you did with your Nokia 10 years ago. Nokia mobiles were ok 10 years ago, today Samsung smartphones are better. Nother more to say.
Renew yourself as you did with your Nokia 10 years ago. Nokia mobiles were ok 10 years ago, today Samsung smartphones are better. Nother more to say.
Smartphone are still phones. You can still call and text with them. If tab target is an old phone then 'action combat' is an ipod and 'hybrid' is a smartphone.
Mostly though because I just don't feel they are going to be able to balance it out correctly. Kinda like how Keyboard users (action combat) are so much quicker and fluid than controller users (tab target) and those two playstyles needing to be separated in FPS style games. Controllers just can't keep up with keyboard and mouse users. I feel its going to be the same for tab target not being able to keep up with action combat users.
Alright, you lost me here. What are you talking about?
What does tab-target have to do with controllers? Why is action combat associated with keyboard use, but not tab-target? I am genuinely confused here.
There are a lot of similarities that can be pulled. Controller users need aim assist, similar to tab target. Action Combat is much faster paced and can do more intricate maneuvers than tab target, mouse and keyboard is much quicker than controller as examples.
The main thing is that controller can't be balanced against a mouse and keyboard user in FPS games. Mouse and Keyboard users are much quicker and have better aim than controller. I feel the same is going to happen to tab target users vs action combat users and it being a very difficult undertaking to balance. That could in the long run adversely affect the game or hold the games combat back because they can't implement certain things or risk making action combat to strong in comparison.
So yes. I feel they should strictly stick to action combat and make it extremely good and appealing, rather than split their focus and potentially cause a balance nightmare they can't dig themselves out of in the long run.
guys, lets be clear. Tab target was great for 10 years ago. Only reason why people still like it is because WoW. Once wow disappear, tab targetting will die with it. Also, there are great options for healers like the targetting on tera that feels too good. Renew yourself as you did with your Nokia 10 years ago. Nokia mobiles were ok 10 years ago, today Samsung smartphones are better. Nother more to say.
Olwys, let's be clear. The tab-target/action-combat rivalry has been great for the past ten years. The only reason people still pick a side is because their favourite games featured one of these systems. It's time to move on beyond this sad rivalry and embrace a better system.
Fortunately, AoC seems ready to deliver. Welcome to the future of gaming.
Developers have a very very hard time balancing classes as it is. This goes for just about every game in existence, between champions in LoL, guns in FPS games and Battle Royales like Fortnite and MMORPGs especially between PvP and PvE.
Now Ashes is going to make that even harder by having to do balance for all the classes between PvP/PvE and adding a whole new element by adding two distinctly different combat styles on top of the already challenging job of balancing.
I agree...class balance is a major concern of mine as well. Buuuuutttt.....if the Fighter class is brokenly OP, I won't complain x'D lol jk
Comments
I have plenty of other games I can do "Action Combat" in.. MMO's should be more strategy gaming then twitch gaming.
I did find the combat tiresome for pve content, but for pvp it was a blast. In the all the tab target games I played I just learned the sequence for my skills and that was it. If I got hit with a debuff I just hit this button and that got boring. I didnt really mind it, but the best part about tab target only is really trying to devise the right set of skills. Loved doing builds in gw.
But a combination of both is the best way to go, so long as it can be pulled off properly.
Mostly though because I just don't feel they are going to be able to balance it out correctly. Kinda like how Keyboard users (action combat) are so much quicker and fluid than controller users (tab target) and those two playstyles needing to be separated in FPS style games. Controllers just can't keep up with keyboard and mouse users. I feel its going to be the same for tab target not being able to keep up with action combat users.
So while TT may be easier to tag your target, AC may have it's benefits since you are able to aim for specific parts. I like this. Options options options!
Limitations will only bring the game down, IMO. How can the game be groundbreaking, innovative and game-changing (like we're ALL hoping it will be) if we the players are locked in to a specific combat style? It'll be just another BDO at that point (sans the horrid Asian-style RNG system) and NO ONE wants that in AoC.
Developers have a very very hard time balancing classes as it is. This goes for just about every game in existence, between champions in LoL, guns in FPS games and Battle Royales like Fortnite and MMORPGs especially between PvP and PvE.
Now Ashes is going to make that even harder by having to do balance for all the classes between PvP/PvE and adding a whole new element by adding two distinctly different combat styles on top of the already challenging job of balancing.
1) Greatly reduces in-fight STRATEGY (PvP) - This is BDO combat in a nut-shell = Try to land CC > i-frame and/or block and/or Super Armor/Frontal Block > Try to land CC > i-frame / mitigate > Try to land CC > Try to land CC > Try to land CC > land CC > one shot CC'd opponent. WOW HOW FUN!!! In BDO, damage is the ONLY viable build. DP (defensive power) sits in the back of the bus behind accuracy and evasion. Fighting-game combat, like found in BDO, reduces build options, strategy and teamwork, hence everyone gunning for that precious AP (attack power), only hitting typical DP milestones.
2) Greatly reduces in-fight STRATEGY (PvE) - Imagine a raid or dungeon in BDO. Sounds pretty cool right? Fun combat mechanics, right? WRONG (least from a true MMORPG standpoint). The reason you don't see dungeons in BDO, like you see in almost all MMORPG's, is because it simply WOULD NOT WORK with BDO's combat system. Dungeons would be a hack-and-slash gamut, not a true MMORPG experience where Tanks are needed to aggro hard-hitting enemies, Healers/Buffers are needed to keep the group going, and DPS' to make everyone's hard-work worth it. BDO combat does not allow this. It will be a hack-and-slash dungeon, just kill everything and de-aggro when doing too much DPS, with minimal heals just in case. Just look at World Bosses and see how they go. Can you not see how lame this would be in AoC, aka an ACTUAL MMORPG?
3) Caters to a specific audience - One of the beauty's of MMORPG's is that the genre can pull people together from many different ways of life. BDO is disliked by many because the combat system is purely fighting-game-esque. I think it's fun (hell, I've played and spent way too much time and money), but that doesn't mean Fred or Nancy over there think so. What of the Support minded-players? What of the strategists who rather survey and solve what's going on, instead of focusing on button mashing? Those types have NO PLACE IN BDO, and it is because of the combat system. It's a damage-based slug fest. Leave brain at front door, instincts only required. NO THANKS, NOT IN AoC!
4) It'll be a CC game - BDO combat, while fun, is severely shallow, which I've found after hours upon hours of PvPing. BDO's combat boils down to who can CC first. And if you get CC'd, you pray to the RNG gods their AP is low enough so you don't get one-shot while CC'd. Strategy in 1v1 = CC, don't get CC'd, bait and react fast. Strategy in Mass PvP = Have a large group (recruit another guild if needed), stick with group, hope to win skirmishes, if you win, attack key parts of their base (barricades, hwatchas, flame towers) until you have an opening to the tower, hit tower, time enemy respawn, exit enemy base when they respawn, zerg enemy when they group up again ("P.A. P.A. P.A.! Wiz/Witches ON MY PING!!! P FUCKING A!!!!" - Shot-caller), rinse repeat. If lose skirmishes, "I'm respawning in 20 seconds, respawn in 20, 19, 18..." - Shot-caller, try to spawn at the same time, regroup, try to kill off the zerg (you probably won't), and if you do, rinse and repeat winning skirmish.
BDO is so fxing stupid. Fun. But painfully STUPID. #Facts.
They will probably bring them back once everyone is full ap to milk more money from players.
Also your view for bdo combat is very shallow.
Youre not thinking at all about the mechanics in the combat but how they were carried out by a bad developer.
You should also separate gearing options and combat, as you can have bdo combat without bdo gear.
Like skills with movement, skills that alter depending on previous and next skill.
The cc mechanics are a good point and I think from all the games Ive played so far WoW had the best cc balance.
Ccs had high cd or were difficult to pull out and there were cc breakers/counters with high cds.
The main thing is that controller can't be balanced against a mouse and keyboard user in FPS games. Mouse and Keyboard users are much quicker and have better aim than controller. I feel the same is going to happen to tab target users vs action combat users and it being a very difficult undertaking to balance. That could in the long run adversely affect the game or hold the games combat back because they can't implement certain things or risk making action combat to strong in comparison.
So yes. I feel they should strictly stick to action combat and make it extremely good and appealing, rather than split their focus and potentially cause a balance nightmare they can't dig themselves out of in the long run.
no
I still would like to try a hybrid system before placing judgement to avoid prejudice.