Microtransactions for cosmetics are perfectly fine. There is no pay to win as they are only cosmetics. Only people who want alternative looks will buy them (like me! I love sparkly effects!). Intrepid has stated many times that pay to win (i.e. paying for something that actually affects gameplay) will not happen.
What is wrong with putting cosmetics in a shop? They have said that the things you are buying are alternative looks to items. I am sure that there will be lots of stuff that looks wonderful and people will be happy with. But others will want that sparkly effect. They will be happy to pay for it, but you do not have to.
Microtransactions for cosmetics are perfectly fine. There is no pay to win as they are only cosmetics. Only people who want alternative looks will buy them (like me! I love sparkly effects!). Intrepid has stated many times that pay to win (i.e. paying for something that actually affects gameplay) will not happen.
What is wrong with putting cosmetics in a shop? They have said that the things you are buying are alternative looks to items. I am sure that there will be lots of stuff that looks wonderful and people will be happy with. But others will want that sparkly effect. They will be happy to pay for it, but you do not have to.
https://imgur.com/a/MUKOsFo Dosen't really look like there is anything for the normal player, that looks cool
Just like insomnia said. Cosmetic Cashs shop is not a must and it will get abused. If I would hire any of you to make Cash Shop the most $$ what would you do? They won't sacrifice the resources for cosmetics just to sit there, not making profit. Lets say you make that sparkly armor to buy for real money and sparkly armor to obtain in game. How would you make it sell well since they are both obtainable one way or another. Here are comon practices that I already mentioned in mmo: Less attractive armor, Ridiculous grind, Adding lots of variety new cosmetics to shop than those to be obtainable in game. Mmo is also about appearance with those good armor sets and etc. "As long it doesn't affect stats it's not P2W". Ok good but again it will affect the game. Unless you claim they won't care about profit. (Insert pikachu meme) <--- players supporting cosmetic cash shop when cash shop gets more attention than actual game. And again what if there won't be equivalence to those items in cash shop. Promises can be made and I can make you a promise that I won't buy anything from cash shop but we all know I probably will.
Well, I at least know the people complaining are all tabbies, because they have clearly not player Tera. In Tera they have all the actual armor sets only available in game, then added the stuff like business wear and swimsuits into the cash shop. Non-lore specific stuff. This type of cash shop is always an option as well. IS has stated all items will relate to the lore of the world in some way though, so we won't have to worry about crazy outfits like in Tera on the cash shop.
1. The core game is funded by Steven 2. Cash shop was fr creating a cushion of funds to rely on and give us as many extra things as possible. 3. Apoc testing requires funding, hence all the additional microtransactions and such related to Apoc paths and what not. 4.Core game is still funded by Steven. Apoc has not changed that nor has any of the mmo's resources gone into Apoc. KS resources are to be used to fund the stretch goals. Apoc's funding comes from microtransactions and such. 5. Cash shop updates monthly so not a big deal really.
Why do we have to pay for sub if there is additional system to make money available. I'm not suggesting to get rid of any of those 2 (sub, cash shop).
It's really nice that we don't have to buy the box version for AoC.
Take these two statements and you have answered why there is a cash shop.
The XP bundle is for the Legendary Path in the Apocalypse Cosmetics line.
The Free to Play Line has 13 Rewards in in thus far. And it stops earning rewards at Level 25. Interesting enough they actually give you Embers (cash shop currency) as one of the rewards. You get a reward basically every other level up to 25.
The Legendary Path (the pay to access line) has 61 Rewards (Plus you earn the rewards from the Free to Play Line). It takes getting all the way up level 50 to get the best looking cosmetic. Now Note I said 61 Rewards. 21 of these are bonus XP.
Now, lets break this concern down:
Is it fair that someone who buys the Legendary Parth is going to chew to level 25 faster than someone who doesn't? No. I will freely admit that this is not fair. If someone pays $10 to unlock the chapter they should not be able to get to level 25 faster than someone who doesn't.
All fine and good.
HOWEVER
Nobody who unlocks the Legendary path will be stopping at level 25. They are going to be going up to 50 to get the best looking armor piece, and the top level weapon skins.
So, at this point Steven and Company could do three things
1) Leave it alone. It really is irrelevant
2) Take out all the XP bonuses prior to level 25 to keep it fair and equal across the board. Then double all the XP bonuses in value from level 26 onward. Which basically is going to leapfrog you through levels. So if they were going to do that, they could just as easily:
3) Take out the XP bonuses and then lower the XP needed to get to level 50.
I don't know why it matters how fast someone else acquires skins - It is all "fair" enough. I don't know why it matters how fast other people get to level 50, either.
This is a testing environment. The associated activities and rewards are just there to make the testing more fun for each individual - as opposed to simply clicking around and waiting for stuff to break.
As @Dygz stated, this is a testing environment. Not the actual game where somehow you get to keep things (besides cosmetics) one in Ashes. If you are so concerned that someone is going to be better dressed than you because they pitched in a few extra dollars how do you handle the real world?
Looking more sharp than the guy next to you at an interview is an inherent advantage that usually requires real money.
Are members really upset that some players who pay more will burn through the content quicker? That seems like the opposite of an actual issue, isn't the goal to enjoy as much of the content as possible? Imo taking time to enjoy the game is better than blowing through it to get a costume quicker.
I don't know why it matters how fast someone else acquires skins - It is all "fair" enough. I don't know why it matters how fast other people get to level 50, either.
This is a testing environment. The associated activities and rewards are just there to make the testing more fun for each individual - as opposed to simply clicking around and waiting for stuff to break.
As @Dygz stated, this is a testing environment. Not the actual game where somehow you get to keep things (besides cosmetics) one in Ashes. If you are so concerned that someone is going to be better dressed than you because they pitched in a few extra dollars how do you handle the real world?
Looking more sharp than the guy next to you at an interview is an inherent advantage that usually requires real money.
Are members really upset that some players who pay more will burn through the content quicker? That seems like the opposite of an actual issue, isn't the goal to enjoy as much of the content as possible? Imo taking time to enjoy the game is better than blowing through it to get a costume quicker.
I'll take the other end of the argument.
Isn't it not straight "Pay to....." if I drop $10 on the Legendary path and chew through the free content faster than someone who can't afford to pay the $10?
I don't want to call it "P2W" because you aren't "winning" but you are certainly "paying" to do "something"
Just the other side of the argument.
As far as the "This is a testing environment" we can agree to disagree.
While yes Apocalypse does feed the MMORPG as far as testing goes, once you monetize something its a product.
It's pay to test. It's pay to play. The rewards don't help you win any contested play. If you don't want to pay to test, don't. If you don't want to purchase rewards - don't. Your choice.
There is a limited list of things in life I have enjoyed that couldn't, in some form or another I'm sure, be considered "paying" to do "something."
Unfortunately it's a construct of our society. One day in the far future we might be able to engage in free trade of concepts, ideas, and resources. Until then, everyone has to pay to eat, drink, and live in a safe environment. So paying for something as far as a game goes, I'm pretty sure this is not a new concept.
I might be wrong, are there no other games that allow free access but monetize additional content? As long as this is not the route they go with Ashes (I bequest of the Gods) I am good.
What no-one has commented on so far is the play style of folks who REALLY want cosmetics for the main MMO, but who really, really can't stand PVP / BR.
In that case, having an option to pay and speed up cosmetic gain / earn embers IS totally the right option. It's a way to persuade many more people to not only get involved in APOC, but also to make some not unethical extra income for Intrepid.
What no-one has commented on so far is the play style of folks who REALLY want cosmetics for the main MMO, but who really, really can't stand PVP / BR.
My brother and I loath BRs. I've skipped most of the testing because I just don't want to spend time doing something I hate (and i'm bad at). The introduction of cosmetics has made me consider it again. Now, I suffer through it. My brother, on the other hand, still won't even considering loading up APOC.
NOT TRUE! You can't tell me that this scarf that makes me look like a badass DOESN'T help me win :P I mean, if I look like a badass, I am obviously winning
I just want to remind that whatever happens with the game we should move on and test it If you like it or not. One aspect that we disagree with in game won't necessarily make the game bad. I hope they adress the combat in the proper way because that's the last step holding them away from success in my opinion. The whole purpose of this discussion was to make people talk, rise questions and perhaps invite new ideas. Hopefully it's a good feedback as well. It definitively put some life into forum.
What no-one has commented on so far is the play style of folks who REALLY want cosmetics for the main MMO, but who really, really can't stand PVP / BR.
What happened to being able to earn the cool stuff just by playing the game, and not having to open your wallet. Seems the nicest stuff, are now in cash shops. This is why the older gamers are getting tired of these games
I heard there is bonus exp with one bundle but not sure if it's true if so, that's really sad.
You heard wrong. Intrepid would consider that pay-to-win and they won't do that.
Someone linked a photo, though i can't find it right now, where they shows, that someone that buys the epic path, will get an xp boost. So you are wrong
Your level has nothing to do with power, but only affects cosmetic progression. Those that pay earn cosmetics faster. While it skirts the line of p2convenience, it is in no way p2win. Once again, if you consider non-stat affecting cosmetics p2w then you are going to have a hard time here.
You just said there wasn't an xp boost, which isn't completely true. I just pointet that out
What happened to being able to earn the cool stuff just by playing the game, and not having to open your wallet. Seems the nicest stuff, are now in cash shops. This is why the older gamers are getting tired of these games
I heard there is bonus exp with one bundle but not sure if it's true if so, that's really sad.
You heard wrong. Intrepid would consider that pay-to-win and they won't do that.
Someone linked a photo, though i can't find it right now, where they shows, that someone that buys the epic path, will get an xp boost. So you are wrong
Your level has nothing to do with power, but only affects cosmetic progression. Those that pay earn cosmetics faster. While it skirts the line of p2convenience, it is in no way p2win. Once again, if you consider non-stat affecting cosmetics p2w then you are going to have a hard time here.
You just said they didn't give xp boost, which was completely true. I just pointet that out
Do you know a sub game that doesn't have a cash shop?
Is that a norm that every company has to follow? I mean, some irregularity would be nice in today's markets.
Fixed your typo for you
I am just gonna leave this list here:
-Wages for employees -Incentives for hard work and effort -Server cost -Electricity bill -Possible legal adviser fee (just in case) -Building cost or rent payed monthly
Ran out of time but this is what I have off the top of my head.
Thanks for fixing the typo. I hope I won't make more xD. I think I will hehe. It all depends how successful the game will be but if half of million people paying their subs won't cover those expenses then what will? We don't know their expenses unless you have access to that. There were mmos before cash shops somehow managing by living of on box price and sub. I'm all in to support their team but I find it really hard to believe the cash shop is the only option. I would be willing to pay for huge expansions than random singular "cosmetics" additions.
On one hand I am all in with the path IS says they are doing. Only cosmetics, all cash purchases are account bound, nothing but looks gained .. ever.
On the other hand, god dammit I hate cash shops in game. The concerns are valid being as there hasnt been a game yet to not abuse this. Even BDO showed us how cosmetic only can still be twisted into a less than honest endeavor. Look at pubg, I have tens of thousands of points that are worthless to even use BC I wont pay cash to unlock any of the crates.
Personally, id rather have a box price. Id rather spend 2x more in the supscription per month and put 100% of the labor into the content. However this WILL NOT make as much profit as a cash shop and eventually, at some point, it will come down to that. Greed will win out over all, it always has, and always will. 🤑
The best option in my opinion, is 90 days in the cash shop, then availible in game, everything.
Take heart, at least we have some really good promises. Thats more than most give us.
What no-one has commented on so far is the play style of folks who REALLY want cosmetics for the main MMO, but who really, really can't stand PVP / BR.
Guess you've missed some of my posts.
? ?! I've looked back over the thread, this is the first time you've commented.
I am so sorry, there are times that the scarred damage to my brain fails to allow me the memory of other thread contents.
Oh man, I try to stay positive and friendly here but this post is, uh, not easy to respond to. OP, the studio needs to make money, they're a business. The question is *how* they make it. Here, with AoC and Intrepid, they've been open, clear, and fully transparent with us how they plan to monetize.
They're being far more ethical about their monetization than like almost any other studio out there right now. I just have no empathy for anyone complaining about it, Intrepid is really doing it the right way here.
I'm not sure we could even ask for more than a ethical company with clear and open communication about pricing and receivables. I personally am glad I can easily show my support for the company, in a real and tangible way, by making purchases at the cosmetics shop.
Oh man, I try to stay positive and friendly here but this post is, uh, not easy to respond to. OP, the studio needs to make money, they're a business. The question is *how* they make it. Here, with AoC and Intrepid, they've been open, clear, and fully transparent with us how they plan to monetize.
They're being far more ethical about their monetization than like almost any other studio out there right now. I just have no empathy for anyone complaining about it, Intrepid is really doing it the right way here.
I'm not sure we could even ask for more than a ethical company with clear and open communication about pricing and receivables. I personally am glad I can easily show my support for the company, in a real and tangible way, by making purchases at the cosmetics shop.
Well, I'm assuming you must be tired of other more aggressive threads about cash shop. I'm sorry that I made you feel displeased. My post is only a concern and not a complain. I'm not calling out to drastic actions or rally people in one thing or another. I just invite everyone to discussion. I have posted a lot of reasons why I'm concerned about cash shop. Every counter argument I get is that its not P2W or that they are business and they need to make money or that I simply whine. The most interesting thing to me is that the game could survive and thrive without cash shop and if you would like to support the company there could be an alternative way for you. Sadly it's the only option considered. At this point I think most people were raised by companies "must be" practices . It appears that its unthinkable for some if such thing like cash shop wouldnt be implemented in any mmo or that its simply irrelevant to the game since it doesn't affect stats. There were some people saying that they would be willing to pay bigger sub prices or box prices to heave steady content flowing with no unhealthy practices included. It would be better for us content and maintenance wise. It's just some argument worth talking about. In the end I respect all of your arguments and thank you for participation. I am sorry again if I displeased anyone I really didn't mean to do that.
Servers can't run without funds. Cash shop is an easy way to get cash from those people willing to pay cash to test the systems and mechanics for the MMORPG via APOC.
Servers can't run without funds. Cash shop is an easy way to get cash from those people willing to pay cash to test the systems and mechanics for the MMORPG via APOC.
Comments
Intrepid has stated many times that pay to win (i.e. paying for something that actually affects gameplay) will not happen.
What is wrong with putting cosmetics in a shop? They have said that the things you are buying are alternative looks to items. I am sure that there will be lots of stuff that looks wonderful and people will be happy with. But others will want that sparkly effect. They will be happy to pay for it, but you do not have to.
Dosen't really look like there is anything for the normal player, that looks cool
Here are comon practices that I already mentioned in mmo:
Less attractive armor,
Ridiculous grind,
Adding lots of variety new cosmetics to shop than those to be obtainable in game.
Mmo is also about appearance with those good armor sets and etc.
"As long it doesn't affect stats it's not P2W".
Ok good but again it will affect the game. Unless you claim they won't care about profit.
(Insert pikachu meme) <--- players supporting cosmetic cash shop when cash shop gets more attention than actual game.
And again what if there won't be equivalence to those items in cash shop.
Promises can be made and I can make you a promise that I won't buy anything from cash shop but we all know I probably will.
1. The core game is funded by Steven
2. Cash shop was fr creating a cushion of funds to rely on and give us as many extra things as possible.
3. Apoc testing requires funding, hence all the additional microtransactions and such related to Apoc paths and what not.
4.Core game is still funded by Steven. Apoc has not changed that nor has any of the mmo's resources gone into Apoc. KS resources are to be used to fund the stretch goals. Apoc's funding comes from microtransactions and such.
5. Cash shop updates monthly so not a big deal really.
The XP bundle is for the Legendary Path in the Apocalypse Cosmetics line.
The Free to Play Line has 13 Rewards in in thus far. And it stops earning rewards at Level 25. Interesting enough they actually give you Embers (cash shop currency) as one of the rewards. You get a reward basically every other level up to 25.
The Legendary Path (the pay to access line) has 61 Rewards (Plus you earn the rewards from the Free to Play Line). It takes getting all the way up level 50 to get the best looking cosmetic. Now Note I said 61 Rewards. 21 of these are bonus XP.
Now, lets break this concern down:
Is it fair that someone who buys the Legendary Parth is going to chew to level 25 faster than someone who doesn't? No. I will freely admit that this is not fair. If someone pays $10 to unlock the chapter they should not be able to get to level 25 faster than someone who doesn't.
All fine and good.
HOWEVER
Nobody who unlocks the Legendary path will be stopping at level 25. They are going to be going up to 50 to get the best looking armor piece, and the top level weapon skins.
So, at this point Steven and Company could do three things
1) Leave it alone. It really is irrelevant
2) Take out all the XP bonuses prior to level 25 to keep it fair and equal across the board. Then double all the XP bonuses in value from level 26 onward. Which basically is going to leapfrog you through levels. So if they were going to do that, they could just as easily:
3) Take out the XP bonuses and then lower the XP needed to get to level 50.
I don't know why it matters how fast other people get to level 50, either.
This is a testing environment.
The associated activities and rewards are just there to make the testing more fun for each individual - as opposed to simply clicking around and waiting for stuff to break.
Looking more sharp than the guy next to you at an interview is an inherent advantage that usually requires real money.
Are members really upset that some players who pay more will burn through the content quicker? That seems like the opposite of an actual issue, isn't the goal to enjoy as much of the content as possible? Imo taking time to enjoy the game is better than blowing through it to get a costume quicker.
Isn't it not straight "Pay to....." if I drop $10 on the Legendary path and chew through the free content faster than someone who can't afford to pay the $10?
I don't want to call it "P2W" because you aren't "winning" but you are certainly "paying" to do "something"
Just the other side of the argument.
As far as the "This is a testing environment" we can agree to disagree.
While yes Apocalypse does feed the MMORPG as far as testing goes, once you monetize something its a product.
The rewards don't help you win any contested play.
If you don't want to pay to test, don't.
If you don't want to purchase rewards - don't.
Your choice.
Unfortunately it's a construct of our society. One day in the far future we might be able to engage in free trade of concepts, ideas, and resources. Until then, everyone has to pay to eat, drink, and live in a safe environment. So paying for something as far as a game goes, I'm pretty sure this is not a new concept.
I might be wrong, are there no other games that allow free access but monetize additional content? As long as this is not the route they go with Ashes (I bequest of the Gods) I am good.
Please no F2P Ashes!
In that case, having an option to pay and speed up cosmetic gain / earn embers IS totally the right option. It's a way to persuade many more people to not only get involved in APOC, but also to make some not unethical extra income for Intrepid.
The whole purpose of this discussion was to make people talk, rise questions and perhaps invite new ideas. Hopefully it's a good feedback as well. It definitively put some life into forum.
You just said there wasn't an xp boost, which isn't completely true. I just pointet that out
You just said they didn't give xp boost, which was completely true. I just pointet that out
It all depends how successful the game will be but if half of million people paying their subs won't cover those expenses then what will? We don't know their expenses unless you have access to that. There were mmos before cash shops somehow managing by living of on box price and sub. I'm all in to support their team but I find it really hard to believe the cash shop is the only option. I would be willing to pay for huge expansions than random singular "cosmetics" additions.
.. ever.
On the other hand, god dammit I hate cash shops in game. The concerns are valid being as there hasnt been a game yet to not abuse this. Even BDO showed us how cosmetic only can still be twisted into a less than honest endeavor. Look at pubg, I have tens of thousands of points that are worthless to even use BC I wont pay cash to unlock any of the crates.
Personally, id rather have a box price. Id rather spend 2x more in the supscription per month and put 100% of the labor into the content. However this WILL NOT make as much profit as a cash shop and eventually, at some point, it will come down to that. Greed will win out over all, it always has, and always will. 🤑
The best option in my opinion, is 90 days in the cash shop, then availible in game, everything.
Take heart, at least we have some really good promises. Thats more than most give us.
-CS
?!
I've looked back over the thread, this is the first time you've commented.
I am so sorry, there are times that the scarred damage to my brain fails to allow me the memory of other thread contents.
I meant no disrespect or insult towards you.
THIS GAME IS PAY TO WHINE.
They're being far more ethical about their monetization than like almost any other studio out there right now. I just have no empathy for anyone complaining about it, Intrepid is really doing it the right way here.
I'm not sure we could even ask for more than a ethical company with clear and open communication about pricing and receivables. I personally am glad I can easily show my support for the company, in a real and tangible way, by making purchases at the cosmetics shop.
I have posted a lot of reasons why I'm concerned about cash shop. Every counter argument I get is that its not P2W or that they are business and they need to make money or that I simply whine.
The most interesting thing to me is that the game could survive and thrive without cash shop and if you would like to support the company there could be an alternative way for you. Sadly it's the only option considered.
At this point I think most people were raised by companies "must be" practices . It appears that its unthinkable for some if such thing like cash shop wouldnt be implemented in any mmo or that its simply irrelevant to the game since it doesn't affect stats.
There were some people saying that they would be willing to pay bigger sub prices or box prices to heave steady content flowing with no unhealthy practices included. It would be better for us content and maintenance wise. It's just some argument worth talking about.
In the end I respect all of your arguments and thank you for participation. I am sorry again if I displeased anyone I really didn't mean to do that.
https://www.paradoxgaming.net/the-steven-answer
^ Explains why the funded MMORPG needed to monetize