What no-one has commented on so far is the play style of folks who REALLY want cosmetics for the main MMO, but who really, really can't stand PVP / BR.
Guess you've missed some of my posts.
? ?! I've looked back over the thread, this is the first time you've commented.
I am so sorry, there are times that the scarred damage to my brain fails to allow me the memory of other thread contents.
I meant no disrespect or insult towards you.
No offense taken, and you are right my comments were in other discussions, and I certainly don't expect you to remember them; though it would be nice if you did.
I'm a bit confused here, so if any kind soul could share a light, would be much appreciated: the game once fully released will be a monthly subscription based game, and for this open beta (which is free) will be some micro transactions for cosmetics and exp boost only, is this correct?, and if so could I get an official statement regarding this matter link please, because: if the game will be sub based + micro transactions, is a no for me, but, if they are only trying to monetize the beta testing game with cosmetics only (and exp boosts) and just the beta testing game, it is quite fine with me, and I would even go as far as to say is a smart move from Intrepid, having some extra coin is always good.
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop.
APOC-Standalone game with BR, Siege Battles, and Horde Mode Monster. Free 2 play. Cosmetics available to be earned that will be used in the mmo also. Season Pass for $10/10 weeks( a dollar a week) available that allows access to "Legendary Path" that offers more cosmetics than free option. EXP BOOSTS as part of the Legendary Path only speed acquisition of cosmetics not power in APOC.
@Gadwar, some people might be okay with a box cost or a higher sub, but when the $15/mo was first mentioned a lot of people thought that was way too much. Most likened it to WoW having a cheaper sub cost and since Ashes is not WoW they sub should be lower. It's an argument with some merit. I'm okay with $15-20/mo, but not everyone is.
There will be other ways to support. We have known from the KS that the goal will be to branch out at least with novels. So others could support by purchasing those when/if implemented. However, many will consider that a crash-grab too.
Games can survive without cash shops, sure. That doesn't mean they should. I think a lot of the resistance you face is due to the hypothetical situation you provided. Most of the threads that start with doomsday scenarios, yours didn't.
However, this thread according to the OP is along the hypothetical train of "MMO's make in game cosmetics look poor, cheap, or outdated. They only sell their good stuff in the cash shop." Since this is an Ashes forum, most assumed you were suggesting IS was going to produce under-par cosmetics in game and somehow force us to use the cash shop if we want to look nice.
I don't think that will be the case with Ashes. If you are proven right kudos, IS dropped the ball and disappointed us. If, in the end, this was a wrong assertion then your thread is just another Ashes Doomsday topic.
When we reply to your posts, they are also personal opinions. You can take them or leave them.
Where did they ever say or show that armor sets are less attractive than the cash purchased ones (please give links)? All they are selling are alternate versions (usually with different colors or effects). Did you watch the stream with the basic 'pants and t-shirt' they showed us? It is amazing.
In my experience, cash shops are cash shops. You want to buy something, buy it. If not, don't.
Anyone who has looked at other posts or websites or streams would know that the xp boosts are for Apocalypse (so you get your alternate cosmetic items faster) and not the MMORPG. Don't be sad.
When you talk about 'the game', are you talking about Ashes of Creation or Apocalypse? They are separate, and their cash shops will also be different (as in, we haven't seen the shop for AoC yet).
It's getting to the point where the amount of emphasis on cosmetics in the cash shop is excessive.
We are still in alpha and there have been over 100 individual items listed with unique or limited appeal.
how flooded will the market place get before it feels like a free to play MMO?
character customization is getting more and more pay walled.
at what point will the player base feel that the actual game is playing second fiddle to the shop front...because that is the risk and the turn off. I have witnessed other MMOs create content only to justify the cosmetics built around them.
I have already expressed my opinion of microtransactions in an other thread with over 2k posts. but to summarize
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
Who cares how many cosmetic items are in the shop? If you want to buy some, do so. If you don't want to buy any, don't. You don't even have to open the shop if you are one of those that won't buy anything. Nobody is making you buy anything.
As soon as someone can provide proof (actual proof, not hearsay) that anything in the cash shop is pay to win, then we can all get out the pitchforks.
Since the MMORPG has yet to come out, what knowledge does anyone have on how it will fare? Everyone keeps saying that this will happen or that will happen. How about we wait and find out what happens?
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop. Whocando said:
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop. Whocando said:
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
Cash shop featuring only cosmetics which have 0 impact on the game and if your REALLY want cosmetics then there will be the possibility to earn them in-game (they can't be bought either). Seriously just look up some information before judging anything.
@Nekhara yeah I heard the the 'no p2w' mantra on many occasions even when it's not relevant to what I have said or the subject at hand.
what if my sub fees fund shop item production? who cares right....
Nobody really cares where the money will go as long as we get good quality content and enough of it to keep us satisfied that is what we are paying for after all, if Intrepid will just pump out updates with most of the content being cash shop items then that's bad, but as long as they provide us with the important stuff then it's only something on the side.
I am sorry, you are complaining that the 3.2 seconds that an artist takes to make a colour change and click 'Save' to an item for the cash shop is not okay? They have said many times that most of the items will just be alternative looks to items that you can get in game.
If it helps them make a better game, I will gladly pay extra for some bling. As people say, if you don't like it, don't use the cash shop.
Your argument is that money from your sub will fund the cash shop. No. The first person who bought something from the cash shop started paying for items in the cash shop. As each item is bought, it funds other items for the shop. And so on, and so on. Our sub money will go into the main MMORPG (since we haven't started paying for subscriptions yet).
@Gadwar, some people might be okay with a box cost or a higher sub, but when the $15/mo was first mentioned a lot of people thought that was way too much. Most likened it to WoW having a cheaper sub cost and since Ashes is not WoW they sub should be lower. It's an argument with some merit. I'm okay with $15-20/mo, but not everyone is.
There will be other ways to support. We have known from the KS that the goal will be to branch out at least with novels. So others could support by purchasing those when/if implemented. However, many will consider that a crash-grab too.
Games can survive without cash shops, sure. That doesn't mean they should. I think a lot of the resistance you face is due to the hypothetical situation you provided. Most of the threads that start with doomsday scenarios, yours didn't.
However, this thread according to the OP is along the hypothetical train of "MMO's make in game cosmetics look poor, cheap, or outdated. They only sell their good stuff in the cash shop." Since this is an Ashes forum, most assumed you were suggesting IS was going to produce under-par cosmetics in game and somehow force us to use the cash shop if we want to look nice.
I don't think that will be the case with Ashes. If you are proven right kudos, IS dropped the ball and disappointed us. If, in the end, this was a wrong assertion then your thread is just another Ashes Doomsday topic.
About world of warcraft here is what I have to say. The thing with wow is that its a really outdated game struggling to keep it's player base interested. Also the blizzard devs are not heaving the best time with their fan base. If the comparison were made in 2008 or Wrath of the lich king expansion ( somewhere around this expac) were the game thrived I would understand the demand for lower sub. Back in the day wow had higer sub price around 30$ or 20$ I don't remember well and im to lazy to Google, sorry!
Merchandise sold outside the game should be ok. Physical Lore wiki books, collection sets, t shirts. Cd tracks with in game music, World maps. It's one of the ways to support and have no impact on the game at all, and shouldn't be called cash grab.
All being said is that its not P2W and the topic closed. That's where my concerns are coming from. If the cash shop won't bring any in game breaking immersion or lore gear and there won't be any hidden and common practices in it. I will be amazed. I will be really happy that I'm wrong. I want this game to succeed with or without cash shop.
I hope you didn't miss my post in which I stated it's the best to accept whatever it may be and test the game to your liking. Cash Shop isn't a doom for this game but a opportunity for the developers to show that a different practise can be done.
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop. Whocando said:
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
Cash shop featuring only cosmetics which have 0 impact on the game and if your REALLY want cosmetics then there will be the possibility to earn them in-game (they can't be bought either). Seriously just look up some information before judging anything.
Please point me to where did I said anything about cosmetics impacting the game?, I said, simply and clear, and I will said it again for sake of being even more clear: "subscription paid model + in game cash shop model it is unacceptable". And I mentioned sheep because there will be people that will use that in game cash shop, which will fuel the already rampant greed on the industry (any industry) and later will complain about how companies try to milk them. This is simply a matter of principles, which have been moving against the former and moving towards uncontrolled greed since some time now, there used to be 3 economic models: buy to play, sub to play, free to play, each with their own and quite respectable way of making money (as any company should), nowadays we have some hybrid abominations that should have being put down at first sight as we do with rabid animals, but were left o live and infect others. But maybe I'm not making my point clear enough yet, so allow me to explain deeper and wider: there's many reasons why people play games, so lets not get into that, but one of those things is to feel rewarded and flaunt your accomplishments, this are show in many ways, your lvl, your tittles, your gear, eeach of those need time, skill, social interaction (or the lack of), wits, coordination (in different amounts), the subscription payed model game should have all those in the tag price of the subscription and not a single coin extra.
@Valaryant Cool. You asked a question. I gave you an answer. You have now let everyone know how abhorrent Intrepid's business model is to you. You may now wander off into the wilds of the internet and find a game that fits your principles. I have the sneaking suspicion that you knew exactly how it all worked, and your earlier, blinking-deer-in-the-headlights comment was just a set up for you to climb up on your soapbox and moralize. What do think is going to happen? That you are going to Norma Rae a social movement and get people to leave the game in droves? Not going to happen.
There are several known psychological reasons to buy or collect things.
I personally am aware that I bought at first in the cash shop, because of fear of missing out, combined with convenience:
I know that I would use cosmetic x in game, I have my concerns that my server may never unlock the content that would allow access to similar in game. Or, if it were unlocked it would be too much of a struggle for me to pick up on what I might intend to be only a disposable rp character.
I am still buying, for much the same reason, but to a much lesser degree. (Also due to being unable 100% to admit that investing in ashes was a mistake, another psychological thing)
I have reduced spending, (though not stopped) having had a 180 shift on my opinion of Intrepid. I cannot reconcile their stated ideals with some of their contrary actions.
I actually think that the cash shop is doing wonders for the game, after all, if they saturate the market with cosmetics prior to launch, each 'unique' cash shop piece becomes much less perceptibly valuable against those REALLY valuable in game legendary cosmetics that we've yet to see.
Yes, society is driven by consumerism and capital, no that's not a perfect ideal, but so far we've been unable to produce any viable alternatives.
Yes, the cosmetic store is a cash grab, but if it is a way to ultimately fund the change you wish to see, ie a great mmorpg, then I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.
Yes, the cosmetic store is a cash grab, but if it is a way to ultimately fund the change you wish to see, ie a great mmorpg, then I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.
Look at my previous posts in this thread I listed all my concerns. Tho I warn you. It's a lot of text.
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop. Whocando said:
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
Cash shop featuring only cosmetics which have 0 impact on the game and if your REALLY want cosmetics then there will be the possibility to earn them in-game (they can't be bought either). Seriously just look up some information before judging anything.
Please point me to where did I said anything about cosmetics impacting the game?, I said, simply and clear, and I will said it again for sake of being even more clear: "subscription paid model + in game cash shop model it is unacceptable". And I mentioned sheep because there will be people that will use that in game cash shop, which will fuel the already rampant greed on the industry (any industry) and later will complain about how companies try to milk them. This is simply a matter of principles, which have been moving against the former and moving towards uncontrolled greed since some time now, there used to be 3 economic models: buy to play, sub to play, free to play, each with their own and quite respectable way of making money (as any company should), nowadays we have some hybrid abominations that should have being put down at first sight as we do with rabid animals, but were left o live and infect others. But maybe I'm not making my point clear enough yet, so allow me to explain deeper and wider: there's many reasons why people play games, so lets not get into that, but one of those things is to feel rewarded and flaunt your accomplishments, this are show in many ways, your lvl, your tittles, your gear, eeach of those need time, skill, social interaction (or the lack of), wits, coordination (in different amounts), the subscription payed model game should have all those in the tag price of the subscription and not a single coin extra.
Ah I misunderstood slightly due to you saying it is 'unacceptable' my bad.
On the other hand personally I do feel I should get all the content with the subscription alone, however if I can get something extra (which I can also get in game) by paying for it then I don't really mind, of course I am referring to cosmetics only, that's why as long as intrepid provide good in-game earnable cosmetics and good looking base armors then I don't mind it too much if they add some extra into the cash shop.
Your argument is that money from your sub will fund the cash shop. No.
I might 've expressed myself wrong. Sorry about that. My argument is a concern that when the cash shop will start making money on big scale. It might become a perpetuum mobile on a scale that It will get more attention than actual game or it will develop a business strategy unhealthy to us. Therefore it's my concern and it doesn't mean it will happen. It's just a worry of a veteran mmo player based on experience and speculation. Thanks for your opinion!
Yes, the cosmetic store is a cash grab, but if it is a way to ultimately fund the change you wish to see, ie a great mmorpg, then I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.
Look at my previous posts in this thread I listed all my concerns. Tho I warn you. It's a lot of text.
@Valaryant I will try to make this simple and clear.
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop. Whocando said:
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
Cash shop featuring only cosmetics which have 0 impact on the game and if your REALLY want cosmetics then there will be the possibility to earn them in-game (they can't be bought either). Seriously just look up some information before judging anything.
Please point me to where did I said anything about cosmetics impacting the game?, I said, simply and clear, and I will said it again for sake of being even more clear: "subscription paid model + in game cash shop model it is unacceptable". And I mentioned sheep because there will be people that will use that in game cash shop, which will fuel the already rampant greed on the industry (any industry) and later will complain about how companies try to milk them. This is simply a matter of principles, which have been moving against the former and moving towards uncontrolled greed since some time now, there used to be 3 economic models: buy to play, sub to play, free to play, each with their own and quite respectable way of making money (as any company should), nowadays we have some hybrid abominations that should have being put down at first sight as we do with rabid animals, but were left o live and infect others. But maybe I'm not making my point clear enough yet, so allow me to explain deeper and wider: there's many reasons why people play games, so lets not get into that, but one of those things is to feel rewarded and flaunt your accomplishments, this are show in many ways, your lvl, your tittles, your gear, etc. each of those need time, skill, social interaction (or the lack of), wits, coordination each in different amounts, the subscription payed model games should have all those in the tag price of the subscription and not a single coin extra, as it was meant to be when first created.
Comments
MMO-No box cost or cost for dlc or expansions. $15 month subscription plus OPTIONAL cosmetic only cash shop.
APOC-Standalone game with BR, Siege Battles, and Horde Mode Monster. Free 2 play. Cosmetics available to be earned that will be used in the mmo also. Season Pass for $10/10 weeks( a dollar a week) available that allows access to "Legendary Path" that offers more cosmetics than free option. EXP BOOSTS as part of the Legendary Path only speed acquisition of cosmetics not power in APOC.
There will be other ways to support. We have known from the KS that the goal will be to branch out at least with novels. So others could support by purchasing those when/if implemented. However, many will consider that a crash-grab too.
Games can survive without cash shops, sure. That doesn't mean they should. I think a lot of the resistance you face is due to the hypothetical situation you provided. Most of the threads that start with doomsday scenarios, yours didn't.
However, this thread according to the OP is along the hypothetical train of "MMO's make in game cosmetics look poor, cheap, or outdated. They only sell their good stuff in the cash shop." Since this is an Ashes forum, most assumed you were suggesting IS was going to produce under-par cosmetics in game and somehow force us to use the cash shop if we want to look nice.
I don't think that will be the case with Ashes. If you are proven right kudos, IS dropped the ball and disappointed us. If, in the end, this was a wrong assertion then your thread is just another Ashes Doomsday topic.
Where did they ever say or show that armor sets are less attractive than the cash purchased ones (please give links)? All they are selling are alternate versions (usually with different colors or effects). Did you watch the stream with the basic 'pants and t-shirt' they showed us? It is amazing.
We are still in alpha and there have been over 100 individual items listed with unique or limited appeal.
how flooded will the market place get before it feels like a free to play MMO?
character customization is getting more and more pay walled.
at what point will the player base feel that the actual game is playing second fiddle to the shop front...because that is the risk and the turn off. I have witnessed other MMOs create content only to justify the cosmetics built around them.
I have already expressed my opinion of microtransactions in an other thread with over 2k posts.
but to summarize
My observation has been that microtransactions prematurely kill the longevity of games. It is and always has been a max profit anti consumer practice.
The sad truth is microtransactions wouldn't exists if consumers didn't purchase them an there is a pretty good chance that the content* they provide would already be added to the game as base line otherwise.
Chicken/Egg pet skin now in the cashshop......
As soon as someone can provide proof (actual proof, not hearsay) that anything in the cash shop is pay to win, then we can all get out the pitchforks.
Since the MMORPG has yet to come out, what knowledge does anyone have on how it will fare? Everyone keeps saying that this will happen or that will happen. How about we wait and find out what happens?
@Whocando your observations are on point, and thank you for mentioning this has already being discussed in a lengthy post before, so I will avoid repeating what I'm sure has already being said, so I will just add: sheep deserve to be sheared.
The complaint is that you feel compelled to purchase every cosmetic in the cash shop?
yeah I heard the the 'no p2w' mantra on many occasions even when it's not relevant to what I have said or the subject at hand.
what if my sub fees fund shop item production? who cares right....
If it helps them make a better game, I will gladly pay extra for some bling. As people say, if you don't like it, don't use the cash shop.
Your argument is that money from your sub will fund the cash shop.
No.
The first person who bought something from the cash shop started paying for items in the cash shop. As each item is bought, it funds other items for the shop. And so on, and so on. Our sub money will go into the main MMORPG (since we haven't started paying for subscriptions yet).
Merchandise sold outside the game should be ok. Physical Lore wiki books, collection sets, t shirts. Cd tracks with in game music, World maps. It's one of the ways to support and have no impact on the game at all, and shouldn't be called cash grab.
All being said is that its not P2W and the topic closed. That's where my concerns are coming from. If the cash shop won't bring any in game breaking immersion or lore gear and there won't be any hidden and common practices in it. I will be amazed. I will be really happy that I'm wrong. I want this game to succeed with or without cash shop.
I hope you didn't miss my post in which I stated it's the best to accept whatever it may be and test the game to your liking. Cash Shop isn't a doom for this game but a opportunity for the developers to show that a different practise can be done.
Thank you also for a good post.
There are several known psychological reasons to buy or collect things.
I personally am aware that I bought at first in the cash shop, because of fear of missing out, combined with convenience:
I know that I would use cosmetic x in game, I have my concerns that my server may never unlock the content that would allow access to similar in game. Or, if it were unlocked it would be too much of a struggle for me to pick up on what I might intend to be only a disposable rp character.
I am still buying, for much the same reason, but to a much lesser degree. (Also due to being unable 100% to admit that investing in ashes was a mistake, another psychological thing)
I have reduced spending, (though not stopped) having had a 180 shift on my opinion of Intrepid. I cannot reconcile their stated ideals with some of their contrary actions.
I actually think that the cash shop is doing wonders for the game, after all, if they saturate the market with cosmetics prior to launch, each 'unique' cash shop piece becomes much less perceptibly valuable against those REALLY valuable in game legendary cosmetics that we've yet to see.
Yes, society is driven by consumerism and capital, no that's not a perfect ideal, but so far we've been unable to produce any viable alternatives.
Yes, the cosmetic store is a cash grab, but if it is a way to ultimately fund the change you wish to see, ie a great mmorpg, then I'm still waiting to hear why that's a bad thing.
On the other hand personally I do feel I should get all the content with the subscription alone, however if I can get something extra (which I can also get in game) by paying for it then I don't really mind, of course I am referring to cosmetics only, that's why as long as intrepid provide good in-game earnable cosmetics and good looking base armors then I don't mind it too much if they add some extra into the cash shop.
Thanks for your opinion!