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Death Penalty... PVX>PVE?

Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited April 2019 in General Discussion
“People say you don't know what you've got until it's gone. Truth is, you knew what you had, you just never thought you'd lose it.

I know it's probably too early to say without testing so bear with me but as a concept in my opinion the current solution is lacking.

my insight:

As I said, currently I feel like death is missing significance.
From what I understand so far, the punishment for dying is a partial lose of your currency and assets.
So basically the principle is just to make your purse suffer.

I suggest having a chance to drop item\s on death should apply as a standard to everyone and not only when corrupt.
Meaning dying to a corrupt player, you as a non-combatant also have a chance to drop an item.

As a balancing act you will be able to reduce the drop % or completely prevent it by buying an expensive or crafting a rare one time use item e.g. "amulet of losses".
All at the same time this preserves the current principle (by spending money\time for this item), grants additional control to your choices (by having applicable option for "being careful") and makes battles and duels more exciting by encouraging you to play better.
Maybe to keep it fair, while corrupt you could not equip\take advantage of such item (or could you? >:) )

Bottom line, Imagine how emotional attachment to a legendary item makes it truly legendary and adds a deeper sensation of meaning that goes along with the vision behind a game like Ashes. I find it essential.


*Addressing a possible concern, this will not apply during a siege or a war to not disrupt the balance and focus too much.


Also, how do you feel about having it the same way for PVE?
Imagine walking deep into a dark cave when you suddenly encounter a dragon sniffing the crispy corpse of a lone traveler, after slaying the beast you find out while looting his backpack he was clearly not prepared since he dropped his common boots when obviously you don't fight a dragon without a pair of legendary fire-walkers. Haha what a noob right?
From the other hand it also gives purpose to preparation by having you consider should you pull out from the stash your super rare legendary maximus prime armor for this epic challenging quest and risk it for the biscuit?
This kind of stuff make the difference for me.


Let's have a discussion shall we?


Edit:

ALRIGHT IM CONVINCED ABOUT PVP YOU CAREBEARS CHILL ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ
Lets talk PvE now ok? Please.
«13

Comments

  • grisugrisu Member
    edited April 2019
    Discussed to death over the past 16 months for me, they aren't doing any kind of full loot aside from corrupted player potentionally dropping gear items.
    They let you open pvp anyone to steal ressources. End of story for me.

    I only skipped over your post, excuse me, but it is not just a baggage to your coin purse, your items will get damaged or potentionally destroyed on death depending on how much overkill is involved. If
    you have stuff equiped that uses bossdrops or rare ressources you might quite literally not be able to repair it due to those ressources not being available anymore/ at this time. You can literally lose your gear at any time, just not to other players.
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    The discussed death penalty so far is negative experience, respawning at a set location, and dropping some of carried materials.

    Negative experience works like lost experience, except it can't decrease levels. Kind of like an EXP debt.
    Respawning at a set location may not sound like a penalty, but with no fast travel and a purportedly large world, this could set you back a half hour in travel or more if you were out in the frontier.
    Gear is safe, consumables are presumably safe, it's materials that you gathered while out and about that are at risk.

    All these death penalties are modified by the PvP flagging system. Being flagged as a combatant will (last we heard) half the death penalty, including negative experience and materials dropped. Being flagged as corrupted will increase these death penalties by a minimum of 3 times. The more corruption, the higher the multiplier. Higher corruption also brings with it the possibility to drop gear, equipped or otherwise. Corrupted players can also potentially respawn in a random location rather than a set respawn location.

    PvE/PvP death does not affect the death penalties, only the flagging. Flagging is changed by engaging in PvP or entering a designated PvP area (though PvP can be done in all areas of Verra, some areas encourage it more than others).
  • ShadowCreptShadowCrept Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As I’m sure ppl told u already anyone has a chance to drop resources in their inventory, but corrupted get a change to drop actual gear the more corrupted = more % chance
    ezgif.com-video-to-gif.gif
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    Thanks for refreshing my memory but I think you're missing my point guys.

    The place I'm coming from already took into account these things and the current way of how things will work.
    All I'm saying is that to me it seems a bit boring and not that meaningful.

    So I'll gain negative XP? Lose some resources? My gear will lose durability?
    For me it's not harsh enough maybe because I assume it will be pretty easily gained back.

    I guess I'm looking for something that will have a bigger effect emotionally rather than make me spend a little more time to gain it back pretty easily, I feel like it's kind of shallow and disconnected.

    I don't know if you ever experienced a relationship with an item but once you're attached to something and you lose it, it makes you feel a certain way. (I know that sound so messed up 😂)
    Of course you're mad about it but at the same time you enjoy the fact a game can touch you on such a deep level and you kinda appreciate it at the same time(?!)
    Yep. Some of the most unique mixed feelings you can experience.

    AM I THE ONLY ONE HERE?
    C'mon bruh
  • OrcLuckOrcLuck Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I think their loot system is fine.

    I've played a full loot MMO, and all it meant was that the game was 70% grinding and 30% fun. I've also played full loot survival games and I don't find it all that enjoyable. I get that some people get off on it, but I find it tedious. If there were fewer factors in whom had the advantage like hardware and ping to the server maybe it could stand to be harsher, but in this day and age technology has not come far enough to make it fair enough for me to accept punishing defeats at the whim of other people's mood.
  • JjampongJjampong Member, Alpha Two
    Zomnivore wrote: »
    I think their loot system is fine.

    I've played a full loot MMO, and all it meant was that the game was 70% grinding and 30% fun. I've also played full loot survival games and I don't find it all that enjoyable.

    I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day, it's a game and it should be enjoyable.

    Dropping items on death might be enjoyable for people who enjoy that type of realism in that game, or maybe some PvPers would prefer it. Although I don't shy away from PvP, I'm mainly interested in PvE and life skilling. I think a system like this would just annoy me and make me too careful.
    d9Zje1B.gif
    [EU] Hand of Unity | PVX | Semi-Hardcore/Hardcore | Family
    We are still recruiting. Come and have a chat with us at our Discord!
  • NagashNagash Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    let this die
    nJ0vUSm.gif

    The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
  • grisugrisu Member
    My gear will lose durability?
    For me it's not harsh enough maybe because I assume it will be pretty easily gained back.

    I guess I'm looking for something that will have a bigger effect emotionally rather than make me spend a little more time to gain it back pretty easily, I feel like it's kind of shallow and disconnected.

    I literally said you can lose any gear worth some shit permanently, if you choose to ignore the state of information we have then there is no use talking to you.
    DistantExemplaryArgusfish-size_restricted.gif
    I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
    I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    tl;dr all of it but I will just say that currently the penalities are already hated by some people. If I was someone who didnt really like PVP then get penalised harshly becuase somebody is forcing their shit on me would be a game killer. Open world pvp ? great it's part of the game but getting punished hard for non-consensual pvp is a joke.
  • FulltimeWifeFulltimeWife Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    a system similar to this but with a white>pink>red>darkred name was used in a game called PWI. drops increasing from nothing> basic materials>gear>multiple gear items. you could soul bind a item but this would make it untradable. so as dark red griefer you would need to bind a full set. also doing pve cleared the red name back to white so there was a real nice balance between pking and pve. this worked great for over 9 years so i feel positive it will be no problem in ashes too
    wxkas80nggsz.gif
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ok guys
    Forget the PVP but what about PVE?

    How soft and forgiving do you want this game to be?
    Where is the challenge?
    Where are the real consequences?

    I guess we are complete opposites but I see your point, the only concern I have with it is that it will get dull real fast.
    PVE focused approach won't last as long as PVP focused IMO. I'm talking long term.
    I understand the game focuses on both and has great intensive for PVP within the node system, all I'm saying is I'm worried I'ts not enough. I want there to be a risk that will keep me on the edge at all times and not only during sieges and wars. something unpredictable with real consequence rather than slap on the wrist.

    When the game is beaten and explored what's left? the focus will shift to PVP.

    I guess a solution to keep everyone happy could be separate hardcore PVP servers?
    nagash wrote: »
    let this die
    Are you pvping me rn? :p

  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    Ok guys
    Forget the PVP but what about PVE?

    How soft and forgiving do you want this game to be?
    Where is the challenge?
    Where are the real consequences?

    I guess we are complete opposites but I see your point, the only concern I have with it is that it will get dull real fast.
    PVE focused approach won't last as long as PVP focused IMO. I'm talking long term.
    I understand the game focuses on both and has great intensive for PVP within the node system, all I'm saying is I'm worried I'ts not enough. I want there to be a risk that will keep me on the edge at all times and not only during sieges and wars. something unpredictable with real consequence rather than slap on the wrist.

    When the game is beaten and explored what's left? the focus will shift to PVP.

    I guess a solution to keep everyone happy could be separate hardcore PVP servers?
    nagash wrote: »
    let this die
    Are you pvping me rn? :p

    For the PVE we know there will be no leveling zones, so if you are farming some low lvl mobs in some forest and a monster with 10+ levels over you appears then though shit get some lube ready and prepare to be destroyed c:

    I like your profile picture btw Tibia c:
  • CambiguousCambiguous Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
  • Rem_Rem_ Member
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3
    Poko.png
  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Death Penalty in games are just inconveniences. Pointless ones at that.

    Thing is, you die, you lose. Simple enough penalty that applies to every situation, and works well enough to drive up adrenaline in any healthy human. If you need more, well, pitohui. There is already a good bit of inconvenience involved in death, having to respawn and run back to where you were.

    However, I've seen people quit games because they died a few times and racked up "a ton" of exp debt. Each person has their own tolerance levels when it comes to death penalties, and if you want to meet MOST tolerance levels, you do away with the penalty all together aside from whatever inconveniences are already there (like having to respawn).

    A critical death penalty doesn't actually improve the game play. It doesn't make things more "intense", you do. You jack it up yourself by exaggerating how horrible it is and how much you don't want to die, and then you die because inevitable and it just hurts that much more.

    I've never needed a severe penalty to death to simply not want to die in the game. And I've often enjoyed the rush of barely surviving certain situations. In fact the biggest reason I've seen for wanting a severe death penalty is griefing. When death means little to nothing, it's less aggravating for the people we kill, and that makes our killing them less meaningful. I'm not seeing a downside to that.
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.
  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I'd say it's the latter.

    You have to understand every system in the game influences the player base, not just you as a player.

    If you were of a d* bag mindset, and wanted to torment other players for gigglesnorts, the simple fact that every time you killed them caused some level of inconvenience is enough incentive to kill anyone weaker than you. The corruption system may actually *encourage* this behavior, because some players would want that extra challenge and incentive to avoid death *and* enjoy pissing people off.

    Add to it the knowledge that your victim may have lost some item? Fap fap fap...

    Game theory is all about trying to predict the typical response to a scenario. It doesn't really mean *all* players exposed to the same scenario will follow the same path. Some people get their jollies from being d* bags, others from helping people. Some people want extreme death penalties for adrenaline, others are fine without those penalties.

    The corruption system seems more focused on giving *certain* players what they want, while discouraging less inclined players from falling into that crowd. It may reduce the griefing, but it won't eliminate it.
  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Since the main point of contention is lost items, I can say my opinion on the matter is it's an unpleasant idea to me. Lost progress is a natural penalty for failing, but significant lost progress is debilitating in more ways than one: it incentivises overly cautious play to minimize risk. That lost item may be worthless, or it could be priceless. It could be a unique legendary or rotten food. One won't be missed but the other is months of effort and pride. I can say from personal experience playing overly cautious isn't fun. The thrill of courting death is what makes combat and traversal fun, but if the perceived loss is larger than the perceived gain, a player won't bother with the fun content. Constantly using second-hand items, fighting weak enemies, looping the same rut, avoiding player contact, it's all dull and safe.

    Risking significant progress isn't inherently bad, but it needs to be understood what that risk brings to the experience -- what kind of play that encourages, and whether that is the intended experience the developers want to convey. Losing an item on death will increase the tension players feel, perhaps to the point of always looking over one's shoulder, but is that the kind of experience Intrepid's aiming for?
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    You cant drop items if you are not corrupted, only materials and you have a bigger chance to drop them if you are in a non-combatant state/gree state.
  • Potato BasketPotato Basket Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Ilisfet wrote: »
    Since the main point of contention is lost items, I can say my opinion on the matter is it's an unpleasant idea to me. Lost progress is a natural penalty for failing, but significant lost progress is debilitating in more ways than one: it incentivises overly cautious play to minimize risk. That lost item may be worthless, or it could be priceless. It could be a unique legendary or rotten food. One won't be missed but the other is months of effort and pride. I can say from personal experience playing overly cautious isn't fun. The thrill of courting death is what makes combat and traversal fun, but if the perceived loss is larger than the perceived gain, a player won't bother with the fun content. Constantly using second-hand items, fighting weak enemies, looping the same rut, avoiding player contact, it's all dull and safe.

    Risking significant progress isn't inherently bad, but it needs to be understood what that risk brings to the experience -- what kind of play that encourages, and whether that is the intended experience the developers want to convey. Losing an item on death will increase the tension players feel, perhaps to the point of always looking over one's shoulder, but is that the kind of experience Intrepid's aiming for?

    Alright you win. I'm actually convinced regarding PVP.

    What would you say regarding PVE?
    Having a chance of dropping an item on death to a monster doesn't necessarily mean you lost it.
    You can respawn and rush to get it back hoping nobody looted your body first.

    How does that sound?
    Autumnleaf wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    You cant drop items if you are not corrupted, only materials and you have a bigger chance to drop them if you are in a non-combatant state/gree state.

    I'm afraid you didn't actually read what we're on about.
  • VolgaireVolgaire Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    Ilisfet wrote: »
    Since the main point of contention is lost items, I can say my opinion on the matter is it's an unpleasant idea to me. Lost progress is a natural penalty for failing, but significant lost progress is debilitating in more ways than one: it incentivises overly cautious play to minimize risk. That lost item may be worthless, or it could be priceless. It could be a unique legendary or rotten food. One won't be missed but the other is months of effort and pride. I can say from personal experience playing overly cautious isn't fun. The thrill of courting death is what makes combat and traversal fun, but if the perceived loss is larger than the perceived gain, a player won't bother with the fun content. Constantly using second-hand items, fighting weak enemies, looping the same rut, avoiding player contact, it's all dull and safe.

    Risking significant progress isn't inherently bad, but it needs to be understood what that risk brings to the experience -- what kind of play that encourages, and whether that is the intended experience the developers want to convey. Losing an item on death will increase the tension players feel, perhaps to the point of always looking over one's shoulder, but is that the kind of experience Intrepid's aiming for?

    Alright you win. I'm actually convinced regarding PVP.

    What would you say regarding PVE?
    Having a chance of dropping an item on death to a monster doesn't necessarily mean you lost it.
    You can respawn and rush to get it back hoping nobody looted your body first.

    How does that sound?
    Autumnleaf wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    You cant drop items if you are not corrupted, only materials and you have a bigger chance to drop them if you are in a non-combatant state/gree state.

    I'm afraid you didn't actually read what we're on about.

    You are right I didnt :joy: I just wanted to mention it in case there is a misunderstanding somewhere, if you already knew this or it is relevant in anyway to your conversation then no harm done yeah ? c:
  • JjampongJjampong Member, Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    Ilisfet wrote: »
    Since the main point of contention is lost items, I can say my opinion on the matter is it's an unpleasant idea to me. Lost progress is a natural penalty for failing, but significant lost progress is debilitating in more ways than one: it incentivises overly cautious play to minimize risk. That lost item may be worthless, or it could be priceless. It could be a unique legendary or rotten food. One won't be missed but the other is months of effort and pride. I can say from personal experience playing overly cautious isn't fun. The thrill of courting death is what makes combat and traversal fun, but if the perceived loss is larger than the perceived gain, a player won't bother with the fun content. Constantly using second-hand items, fighting weak enemies, looping the same rut, avoiding player contact, it's all dull and safe.

    Risking significant progress isn't inherently bad, but it needs to be understood what that risk brings to the experience -- what kind of play that encourages, and whether that is the intended experience the developers want to convey. Losing an item on death will increase the tension players feel, perhaps to the point of always looking over one's shoulder, but is that the kind of experience Intrepid's aiming for?

    Alright you win. I'm actually convinced regarding PVP.

    What would you say regarding PVE?
    Having a chance of dropping an item on death to a monster doesn't necessarily mean you lost it.
    You can respawn and rush to get it back hoping nobody looted your body first.

    How does that sound?
    Autumnleaf wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »
    I don't have too much to say but judging by a lot of people on the Forums at least having players who aren't trying to pvp, or aren't corrupted dropping items would almost instantly kill the game <3

    Hmm.. Do you think the same way even if It's a very small chance to drop an item?
    Like a very rare occasion or maybe it will depend on the frequency of your deaths, the shorter the period of time between your deaths the higher the chance to drop.

    Absolutely.

    The worst thing you can ever do to a player is drive them into a situation they can't win, and punish them for losing. The fact that people out there just want to kill players, meh. We could potentially do something about it (I'm considering making a guild focused on exactly this issue). However players losing their stuff after being smashed by a group (or a solo high level) is punishment just for attempting to play the game.

    The goal is to make the game fun for everyone involved. That means trying to make the game fun for the poor loser that just got steam rolled trying to pick flowers.

    Alright so you think being pked and lose an item is too harsh of a punishment even with the corruption system in play? It'a not like you will be pked very frequently anyways.
    I think It's the better balance rather than not having a change to drop an item ever.
    Maybe people underestimate the corruption system or I am overestimating I'ts influence.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    You cant drop items if you are not corrupted, only materials and you have a bigger chance to drop them if you are in a non-combatant state/gree state.

    I'm afraid you didn't actually read what we're on about.

    Even when talking about PvE, I couldn't agree more with @wolfwood82 argument. Dying is already inconvenient enough as far as I'm concerned. The fact that I died, no matter how much inconvenience it includes, is more than enough to get me more motivated for the next attempt.
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  • JahlonJahlon Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »

    If you were of a d* bag mindset, and wanted to torment other players for gigglesnorts, the simple fact that every time you killed them caused some level of inconvenience is enough incentive to kill anyone weaker than you. The corruption system may actually *encourage* this behavior, because some players would want that extra challenge and incentive to avoid death *and* enjoy pissing people off.

    The corruption system seems more focused on giving *certain* players what they want, while discouraging less inclined players from falling into that crowd. It may reduce the griefing, but it won't eliminate it.

    I'm going to assume that you aren't fully versed in the Corruption system due to this line of thought.

    For this example, I use the word murder to indicate a corrupted killing a non-combatant. Just easier to have a single verb for it instead of spelling it out.

    Billy the griefer runs around murdering people. The first time he does it, he gets corruption.

    The person he murders suffers a 100% death penalty. Let's say that's 10,000 negative experience gained

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened.

    Billy kills person number two. Person number 2 gets a 10,000 negative experience gain.

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened again.

    Billy kills person number 3. Person 3 gets a 10,000 negative experience gain.

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened yet again. He now falls into RNG of loot drop. He also now needs 2 deaths to clear his corruption state.

    Billy comes across a Bounty Hunter and gets killed. He gets a 30,000 - 40,000 negative experience gain, and shitty bad luck, he dropped his silver ring due to RNG on loot drop. When he rezzes he is still corrupted.

    He comes across someone he wants to try to kill. He tries, and because he is still corrupted, he still has his PvP stats diminished. He dies a second time. He gets another 30,000 - 40,000 negative experience gain.

    Good news for Billy, he is no longer corrupted so therefore he no longer has the corruption stat diminishing on his PvP stats.

    Bad news for Billy, he's 60,000 - 80,000 in debt on XP so his combat stats are diminished. He's also down a silver ring.


    So Billy's 3 victims each gained 10,000 negative experience and some gatherables.

    Billy has gained 60,000 - 80,00 negative experience, lost a ring, lost way more gatherables (since he also lost both times he died).




    You really think there are going to be more than a handful of people like Billy? Who now have to grind back up 60k - 80k XP to go back to being as strong as they were before they murdered people?
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  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As of last I heard corrupted players that die random spawn elsewhere. If this is true, it should cut down on the "Billy just let's his guildmates kill him."

    With as big as Verra will be and the PvP corruption flag, Billy shouldn't last too long in the wild. With random spawn roaming groups of "Bullies" should be much smaller than ever before too (hopefully).
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  • I also have background from full loot PvP games and I kind of understand hardcore PvP players desire to see more freedom in the open world PvP. However, Ashes goals to cater PvE/PvX centric players and they can not do that with harsh open world ruleset.

    Even so, I am interested to test out how current corruption system works. I am going to find a way to do some open world PvP now and then, and see if I can make some profit that way. Moreover, I am interested to see how those sieges and caravans will work out.

    My only concern is that, will there be enough PvP content so I can enjoy that part even everyday if I want to. We will see..
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  • WizardTimWizardTim Member, Alpha One, Adventurer, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited April 2019
    jahlon wrote: »
    wolfwood82 wrote: »
    ninfosho wrote: »

    If you were of a d* bag mindset, and wanted to torment other players for gigglesnorts, the simple fact that every time you killed them caused some level of inconvenience is enough incentive to kill anyone weaker than you. The corruption system may actually *encourage* this behavior, because some players would want that extra challenge and incentive to avoid death *and* enjoy pissing people off.

    The corruption system seems more focused on giving *certain* players what they want, while discouraging less inclined players from falling into that crowd. It may reduce the griefing, but it won't eliminate it.

    I'm going to assume that you aren't fully versed in the Corruption system due to this line of thought.

    For this example, I use the word murder to indicate a corrupted killing a non-combatant. Just easier to have a single verb for it instead of spelling it out.

    Billy the griefer runs around murdering people. The first time he does it, he gets corruption.

    The person he murders suffers a 100% death penalty. Let's say that's 10,000 negative experience gained

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened.

    Billy kills person number two. Person number 2 gets a 10,000 negative experience gain.

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened again.

    Billy kills person number 3. Person 3 gets a 10,000 negative experience gain.

    Billy gets his PvP stats weakened yet again. He now falls into RNG of loot drop. He also now needs 2 deaths to clear his corruption state.

    Billy comes across a Bounty Hunter and gets killed. He gets a 30,000 - 40,000 negative experience gain, and shitty bad luck, he dropped his silver ring due to RNG on loot drop. When he rezzes he is still corrupted.

    He comes across someone he wants to try to kill. He tries, and because he is still corrupted, he still has his PvP stats diminished. He dies a second time. He gets another 30,000 - 40,000 negative experience gain.

    Good news for Billy, he is no longer corrupted so therefore he no longer has the corruption stat diminishing on his PvP stats.

    Bad news for Billy, he's 60,000 - 80,000 in debt on XP so his combat stats are diminished. He's also down a silver ring.


    So Billy's 3 victims each gained 10,000 negative experience and some gatherables.

    Billy has gained 60,000 - 80,00 negative experience, lost a ring, lost way more gatherables (since he also lost both times he died).




    You really think there are going to be more than a handful of people like Billy? Who now have to grind back up 60k - 80k XP to go back to being as strong as they were before they murdered people?

    You're correct, I'm not familiar with the details of the system. What I am familiar with is how easily any system can be exploited and broken, and how percentages of players will follow certain paths.

    First, no one cares about experience debt at max level. And if they are part of a guild that routinely deals with this, they likely have readily available support gurus to help regain that experience debt quickly. Entire guilds are being advertised for banditry and piracy, which is common and typical in MMOs like AoC. The PvP hype is real, the reality~ meh.

    Progressively weakening a player's PvP stat isn't quite a new one for me either. Planetside 1 and 2 used a grief lock system where if you dealt so much damage to friendly players, you suffered weapons lock for a period of time. Kind of hard to kill enemies when you can't shoot.

    Secondly, who's to say these PvP guilds won't have their own Bounty Hunters? What stops Billy from killing a few blokes, laughing at the exp debt, and letting a friend kill him twice and return whatever items he "lost"? A clever guild can work it's way around any game system and do what it wants to have fun.

    So do I think there will be more than a handful of Billy's? Absolutely. I haven't seen a game come out yet that didn't have a real problem right around 3-5pm when grade school lets out and open world PvP is a thing.

    My point is you will have numerous people who just want to be an ass. A fraction of those people will be put off by the severe penalties (or rather, their desire to be an ass will be out weighed by the drawbacks... for a time..), another fraction will actually seek out those penalties for their own personal masochistic opinions on just how hard a game should be.

    If AoC has 20k players on a server, and just 10% are murder hobos, that's about 2000 players, or about 7 guilds of 300 players.

    However I'm not super worried about them. Systems are in place to allow non-murder hobos to actually fight back and maybe, just maybe, hinder their progress or get some returns.

    *My* concern is player retention. Particularly at the 6 month mark when most players are going to wait for before getting the game, to let the usual launch bugs be fixed. By then, you'll probably have max level players running around, including murder hobos. The core issue I see with this style of game is when you have new players starting up the game in the same world as high level players who steam roll them, potentially regularly, simply because they don't really know what they are doing. Players will be particularly prone to quitting a game they haven't invested much in as opposed to one they've spent some time in.

    New players picking up the game for the first time tend to do so with zero research on the game and zero knowledge of the culture within said game. They won't know what nodes are safe or protected by helpful players or where the bandits hang out. And, let's face it, most people don't have the patience to learn these things. If you start up a game for the first time, and get steam rolled right out of the gate (literally), what will your first impressions be of this game? And yes players will do that for gigglesnorts.

    Finally, unless Intrepid plans on using some super secret coding magic, you will always have hackers. Which is an entirely different but no less harmful curse on MMO games.

    All of these factors stack up in the boredom vs rage quit graphs, which varies from person to person. Some people will quit after the first such BS incident, others might tough it out, still others might thrive. All of this needs to be considered when putting together a complicated world like AoC is promising. It's not the 2000 murder hobos who keep the game alive, it's the other 18k players that have to deal with them. The developer's goal should be more focused on retaining that 18k as much as possible, and punishing players for simply being steam rolled in situations they can't win is not how you accomplish this.
  • AzathothAzathoth Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    People that invest $15 for their fist month, then decide it's not their thing and quit, have lost little wealth. If they didn't research and buy-then-quit, that's a $15 lesson. I am not too worried about them. Yes, I know, "but Ashes needs members" and that is true, but Ashes doesn't need every available member possible. No game has that, and many do quite well (yes, I know, some do fail).

    Truth is, if an open world PvP game is not your play-style, in the end you likely won't enjoy Ashes as much as others that don't mind it. Luckily there are games that can cater to those that don't like it, not that anyone should quit and go play those games, but they are there.

    Do I want Ashes to cater to my desire/needs? Yes.
    Do I want Ashes to cater to my friends that have already chosen not to play because of one thing or another? Yes.

    Do I want Ashes to backtrack on what their original plan/goal is to accommodate as many players as possible? No. Therefore, like an adult, I will chose to play with others and not rage quit when something I don't like happens.

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  • ilisfetilisfet Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    ninfosho wrote: »
    What would you say regarding PVE?
    Having a chance of dropping an item on death to a monster doesn't necessarily mean you lost it.
    You can respawn and rush to get it back hoping nobody looted your body first.

    How does that sound?
    Honestly I'd love that. Of all the single player death systems I've had, the corpse run (Souls series) is my favorite. You can negate the entire penalty of death, but in doing so puts you right back where you died, facing what killed you. There's the real tension of lost progress but it's not omnipresent, only during the run back.
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