So after attachment to items which you ignored that they can possibly be lost if you don't pay attention to your gear state(not to mention item degredation and ressource limitation is a thing furthering the attachment and the cost for repair) it's gone to:
Other people must be able to loot everything from you....because? (everything as in anything is possible to drop)
Why does it have to be possible/ What does it >>add<< that you can take away more of other peoples work beyond what you already get? (pve example extension:) - having done literally nothing for it?
Why is it not enough that people can lose their gear to overkill?
I realize this sounds carebear-ish, but yeah I'm far from that. I just don't get how this is for either side a positive/enriching experience.
You talk about there is no risk, it's too soft:
Without anyone knowing how much of the ressources we do drop, apparently ignoring ressources are the very essence of the game, a legendary boss monsters hide/claw is still a ressource that you will have to carry around to through the stages of crafting those into weapons/armor.
Without anyone knowing how much it costs to repair armor/weapons which doesn't just cost money but ressources again.
I'm not saying stop talking about it, but you might want to stop acting like this is World of Warcraft and adjust to what we know about Ashes first.
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
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Potato BasketMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
So after attachment to items which you ignored that they can possibly be lost if you don't pay attention to your gear state(not to mention item degredation and ressource limitation is a thing furthering the attachment and the cost for repair) it's gone to:
Other people must be able to loot everything from you....because? (everything as in anything is possible to drop)
Why does it have to be possible/ What does it >>add<< that you can take away more of other peoples work beyond what you already get? (pve example extension:) - having done literally nothing for it?
Why is it not enough that people can lose their gear to overkill?
I realize this sounds carebear-ish, but yeah I'm far from that. I just don't get how this is for either side a positive/enriching experience.
You talk about there is no risk, it's too soft:
Without anyone knowing how much of the ressources we do drop, apparently ignoring ressources are the very essence of the game, a legendary boss monsters hide/claw is still a ressource that you will have to carry around to through the stages of crafting those into weapons/armor.
Without anyone knowing how much it costs to repair armor/weapons which doesn't just cost money but ressources again.
I'm not saying stop talking about it, but you might want to stop acting like this is World of Warcraft and adjust to what we know about Ashes first.
lol
As a matter of fact I never really got into WoW.
Anyways, I totally agree with your words, that's why I opened with "It's probably too soon".
This discussion is merely to express my concerns for a possible less satisfying outcome I assume possible.
At this point I'll just call you a troll
Your concerns are not possible since they are based on lacking, better said ignored, information.
I remember why I stopped writing more than one explainatory comment. It's literally a waste of time you just want your own view be adopted nothing else.
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The pain never ends please just end it
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
People that invest $15 for their fist month, then decide it's not their thing and quit, have lost little wealth. If they didn't research and buy-then-quit, that's a $15 lesson. I am not too worried about them. Yes, I know, "but Ashes needs members" and that is true, but Ashes doesn't need every available member possible. No game has that, and many do quite well (yes, I know, some do fail).
Truth is, if an open world PvP game is not your play-style, in the end you likely won't enjoy Ashes as much as others that don't mind it. Luckily there are games that can cater to those that don't like it, not that anyone should quit and go play those games, but they are there.
Do I want Ashes to cater to my desire/needs? Yes.
Do I want Ashes to cater to my friends that have already chosen not to play because of one thing or another? Yes.
Do I want Ashes to backtrack on what their original plan/goal is to accommodate as many players as possible? No. Therefore, like an adult, I will chose to play with others and not rage quit when something I don't like happens.
Funny thing is, nothing about this entire thread was about open world PvP. It's about the death penalty used in the game, and how that might affect an individuals enjoyment of the game.
I stated that the death penalty, when combined with the open world PvP, has a real chance of ending the game quickly. Both by driving players away and by stagnating the game's growth and attractiveness to new players. And that is absolutely true.
To be perfectly frank, it does not matter whether *you* choose to rage quit or not. If you choose not to quit because of rampant PKing, great, good for you, be proud you are an adult and not a "carebear". You'll end up quitting because the game's population drops to the triple digits though.
People tend to view this problem as players. And as players, your tendency is to view this problem from exactly one angle, yours. So let me ask you, if you get repeatedly steam rolled and your hard work routinely stolen from you, and your progress routinely stunted by 10k exp deaths whenever a goon 30 levels above you decides to smash you, how long will you keep playing the game?
The goal of the MMO is to advance and have fun. If the corruption system doesn't do it's job and control PKing, and you are smashed 3-5 times a day, you cannot advance. You won't have fun either, because you are just getting smashed. Over and over and over.
You claim you will be an adult and not rage quit. My guess is you claim this on the assumption that you may die once in awhile to a goon. I'm trying to paint a picture of a world where you die 3-5 times from 3-5 goons daily. Would the game be fun then?
Consider all the angles for the death penalty and ask yourself "exactly how many times a day would I put up with being slapped with a 10k debt and lost mats?". Make yourself the victim in your head, only then can you understand how others might feel.
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People that invest $15 for their fist month, then decide it's not their thing and quit, have lost little wealth. If they didn't research and buy-then-quit, that's a $15 lesson. I am not too worried about them. Yes, I know, "but Ashes needs members" and that is true, but Ashes doesn't need every available member possible. No game has that, and many do quite well (yes, I know, some do fail).
Truth is, if an open world PvP game is not your play-style, in the end you likely won't enjoy Ashes as much as others that don't mind it. Luckily there are games that can cater to those that don't like it, not that anyone should quit and go play those games, but they are there.
Do I want Ashes to cater to my desire/needs? Yes.
Do I want Ashes to cater to my friends that have already chosen not to play because of one thing or another? Yes.
Do I want Ashes to backtrack on what their original plan/goal is to accommodate as many players as possible? No. Therefore, like an adult, I will chose to play with others and not rage quit when something I don't like happens.
Funny thing is, nothing about this entire thread was about open world PvP. It's about the death penalty used in the game, and how that might affect an individuals enjoyment of the game.
I stated that the death penalty, when combined with the open world PvP, has a real chance of ending the game quickly. Both by driving players away and by stagnating the game's growth and attractiveness to new players. And that is absolutely true.
To be perfectly frank, it does not matter whether *you* choose to rage quit or not. If you choose not to quit because of rampant PKing, great, good for you, be proud you are an adult and not a "carebear". You'll end up quitting because the game's population drops to the triple digits though.
People tend to view this problem as players. And as players, your tendency is to view this problem from exactly one angle, yours. So let me ask you, if you get repeatedly steam rolled and your hard work routinely stolen from you, and your progress routinely stunted by 10k exp deaths whenever a goon 30 levels above you decides to smash you, how long will you keep playing the game?
The goal of the MMO is to advance and have fun. If the corruption system doesn't do it's job and control PKing, and you are smashed 3-5 times a day, you cannot advance. You won't have fun either, because you are just getting smashed. Over and over and over.
You claim you will be an adult and not rage quit. My guess is you claim this on the assumption that you may die once in awhile to a goon. I'm trying to paint a picture of a world where you die 3-5 times from 3-5 goons daily. Would the game be fun then?
Consider all the angles for the death penalty and ask yourself "exactly how many times a day would I put up with being slapped with a 10k debt and lost mats?". Make yourself the victim in your head, only then can you understand how others might feel.
I think most of you should wait for the game to be actually tested before saying how the death penalites should work. Personally I think that the penalties for corruption are enough to get most people to stay away from mindlessly killing green players out in the open and take it to pvp zones (which as far as I remember are confirmed). We went through this extensively on the old forums and it was a topic brought back. Every. Fucking. Week. The discussions always ended the same way, feel free to discuss the system but dont get all bothered about it and start arguments over something we have not even seen with our own eyes.
This is why Intrepid should start releasing updates, we don't know how the fuck the game will work so nevermind new players who might chance upon a misinformed post/article and get a complete turn off from the game because Intrepid are still delaying any hard mmo footage/content.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@wolfwood82, so you are "... trying to paint a picture of a world where you die 3-5 times from 3-5 goons daily."
Why? Did not enough people take your side during a rational argument?
If you ask me if I think the death penalty is too harsh, I will say no.
If you ask if I think I am going to get 'steam rolled' 3-5 times daily, I will say no.
If you, however, say "...you will die 3-5 times a day from PVP you can't handle, do you enjoy that?" the obvious answer is no. That's what we call a loaded question.
Please continue to paint your crappy picture and ask if people want to see it though, that makes me happy.
I am a person who enjoys of open world PvP. Even so, I understand IS vision to cater certain type of audience (PvE/PvX/RP). Changing that vision and making open world PvP more hardcore would mean a lot of less interested players.
I will be a little bit restricted with planned corruption system, but I am okay with that. I have reasoned it this way; Now I have to be more selective with my targets and I need to make one or max few attempts before I stop from that day. I am not going after other players just for having fun, I am going after possible profit. Meaning I will try to find that guy who has fat mule with full of resources.
Moreover, I do not need to be that bad guy either, and I know I would enjoy hunting criminals as well especially because of the bountyhunting system (if it will be implemented reasonable way). So even the open world PvP system is quite restricted, I am trying to enjoy it within the rules. I have no problem to adapt, but I guess that is because I consider myself as a true all around player who enjoys every possible content equally. I can Imagine this would be harder for true hc PvP players.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
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Potato BasketMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
edited April 2019
@azathoth Thank you. I appreciate your common sense.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discuss PvE.
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ShadowCreptMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Who cares about Death Penalties when u never die..
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@azathoth Thank you. I appreciate your common sense.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discussion PvE.
Oh not at all. I'm happy that you have your own views but the fact that this is the 17 thread about the same post rattles my bones.
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
It can be, but we can not know that yet and we just need to wait the upcoming testphases first. If the current corruption system will not have hoped results, then it will be tweaked for sure. However, IF the current system restricts too much open world PvP (devs opinion), I do not see it as a solution to make system more penalizing to those who are the targets. I think it would be better to penalize less those corrupted players.
That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
This is more like common problem generally in these forums. And I am not referring to @Nagash post. I understand his point and I kind of agree, this topic has heavily argued and talked many times.
However, we should remember, that some people might have talked same topics several times, but still some people only few or first time. So my suggestion is those who gets irritated of the same topics, just leave them be if you do not want to discuss about them anymore. There is no need to join in conversation just for sake of joining. It is so simple.
There was this another topic where someone was pondering, that is Ashes community enough friendly for newcomers. And I think it is not. People welcomes very nicely all new people, but when they take part to conversations they might be ripped a part straight away. I can imagine they do not get very friendly first impression.
Same with people who make the mistake to critisize the game or developers doings, those usually gets really unwelcome responses from the white knights. This faction usually takes critisisms almost like personal insults.
At the end, basic forum behaviour what I have acknowledge too see almost everywhere. Just based on my experience and opinion, and this can differ a lot from others of course.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
My only concern is when new topics like PvP, Death Penalty, etc. appear in the forums our visitors will see them. A lot of those threads start off with an assumption that is incorrect or a 'worse case' scenario. If members with opposing opinions or with actual knowledge don't post in those threads it heightens the chances of visitors thinking they are correct.
So as much as I hate say "No end game" as soon as possible every time a thread pops up, I will do it.
As much as I don't care about PvP, every time a thread pops up I read it.
@ninfosho, your welcome.
As for PvE deaths penalties, I still don't think they are too harsh. I don't want to do a spirit run. I would also prefer there not being shrines that people heal/resurrect 3 or 5 minutes apart from each other. However, even though I am a casual and will only play maybe 10hrs a week, I am fine with having to back track 20 minutes or more if I was in a sweetly dangerous place. I know that's too much for some PvE players, so I hope there is a balance (please no hearth stones or fast travel or spirit runs).
My only concern is when new topics like PvP, Death Penalty, etc. appear in the forums our visitors will see them. A lot of those threads start off with an assumption that is incorrect or a 'worse case' scenario. If members with opposing opinions or with actual knowledge don't post in those threads it heightens the chances of visitors thinking they are correct. So as much as I hate say "No end game" as soon as possible every time a thread pops up, I will do it. As much as I don't care about PvP, every time a thread pops up I read it.
Actually there is nothing wrong if people gives their answers everytime, but it is more about how they do it. In most situations there is always someone argueing opposite so no one should take a pressure about that.
Ask yourself this: What if few people gets wrong impression about something? So what? What so bad will happen because of that? This actually helped me to just let go from some "battles"..
At the end, everybody is responsible of him/herself to collect information from right places. Forum is semi-good place imo.
Do you need a ride to the Underworld?
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VarkunMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
This one has honestly been beaten to death so many times.
But here are a couple of questions.
If you are corrupt out in the wilds and a caravan happens along and you sign up to attack/defend will corruption be removed if you are killed attacking/defending the caravan?
Will your corruption cause your pvp effectiveness to be decreased while attacking/defending the caravan? or will it be set to its none corrupted level while in the pvp zone?
Close your eyes spread your arms and always trust your cape.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@Varkun, if you are corrupted and a caravan passes along *speculation* I don't think you will have the option to flag and the battle (death or what not) will be treated as it would for anything else you do while corrupted. I'm not sure why there would be a difference.
If I am guarding a caravan and see a corrupt player, they will be treated as a hostile regardless.
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@azathoth Thank you. I appreciate your common sense.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discussion PvE.
Oh not at all. I'm happy that you have your own views but the fact that this is the 17 thread about the same post rattles my bones.
Yeah they should have pinned a few of those threads from the past forums, great read. Very informative.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@azathoth Thank you. I appreciate your common sense.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discussion PvE.
Oh not at all. I'm happy that you have your own views but the fact that this is the 17 thread about the same post rattles my bones.
Yeah they should have pinned a few of those threads from the past forums, great read. Very informative.
we do have a search bar yet no one ever uses it
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@azathoth Thank you. I appreciate your common sense.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discussion PvE.
Oh not at all. I'm happy that you have your own views but the fact that this is the 17 thread about the same post rattles my bones.
Yeah they should have pinned a few of those threads from the past forums, great read. Very informative.
we do have a search bar yet no one ever uses it
Since it's easier to bitch about it in a few more threads, and when the game comes out we will still have people complaining how to make it better etc.
This is always so difficult, is he just that dense or is he trolling?
Either way I am still waiting for the answer to
"How is this any different from items getting destroyed on death, which is a thing in Ashes universally, pvp as well as pve."
I can be a life fulfilling dream. - Zekece
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
So you pulled one quote completely out of context and responded to that. Strawman. Great. We're done here.
Thanks for purposely dodging the point.
P.S: Your fears are unfounded and I find your hostility annoying and immature. Stop it. The question was raised "what are the thoughts on death penalty for PvE/PvP". I offered my opinions and supporting concepts/ideas/theories/experiences. I really don't care if people agree/disagree with them, I have a right to voice said opinions and attempt to share my perspective.
My statements are based on game theory and actual game development techniques, as well as personal experiences and observations from over 20 years of MMO gaming. Not on what Intrepid has right now. I don't know what the death penalty in the game is right now (for either PvP or PvE), and I don't really care since it's not even in Alpha 2 and everything is subject to change. I know what will result in empty servers quickly, and what won't. Harsh penalties in an unpredictable game will result in rapid and permanent drops in player bases. And, from what I've heard, AoC is going to be unpredictable (no level based zones and open world PvP, two factors that will ensure no two game sessions will be the same daily grind).
Unpredictable game play is a good thing, but the penalties need to be curbed accordingly. Players absolutely *love* pretending they are hard core and will insist on the harshest penalties they can think of right up until they have to personally deal with the consequences themselves. Which is specifically why I ask people to consider dealing with the consequences in worse case scenarios *instead* of what they normally consider. Game development techniques>player grandstanding.
This is not intended to turn players off of the game, it's intended to make sure players that want a hard core penalty system actively consider facing the full blown consequences of that system, rather than assume they will kick everyone else's ass and be top dawg. It's literally meant to curb players away from blatantly making demands they themselves will regret. Like P2W systems (which became a thing because players wanted ways to spend money to make games easier...). And yes players always make demands they later regret, there is such a thing as players paradox.
To be clear, my personal opinion is that death penalties serve little to no real purpose in general PvE or PvP except as a means to encourage players to not die. Like with most systems stuffed into MMOs, it's more tradition than sound reasoning, and inevitably does more harm than good to the over all game play. In PvE, it's all but a sadistic means of torturing players in a manner they don't consciously view as torture. For PvP, it's a potential death sentence for any game, as you will die in PvP. Often. And any penalty associated with your death *is* inevitable, and should be carefully scrutinized.
As far as AoC is concerned, I'm not particularly worried. The corruption system has a very clearly defined purpose, and as long as the Dev Team pursues that purpose, it will work. For PvE, again aside from exp debt and item decay, I don't see any need to tack on dropped mats given the unpredictable game environment.
It might be neat if you could drop mats in PvE (instead of item decay, mind you) if creatures that might actually utilize them kill you. I could see goblins or bandits stealing your mats just like a player might, and would welcome a game system that took that into consideration. I can't see A_Large_Rat swiping your mats though, but it might gnaw on your armor a bit.
It would be nice to have a system where repeated threads can be flagged and linked to a page that has the answers to whatever question was being asked. It would save a lot of people a lot of time and joint damage. If someone (by some absurd miracle) does bring up a new, relevant point, it can be addressed and officially appended to the topic page. That way, every topic can actually have an "end", to some extent.
You really think there are going to be more than a handful of people like Billy? Who now have to grind back up 60k - 80k XP to go back to being as strong as they were before they murdered people?
Yes.There will be hundreds of Billy's on every server, and thousand on 20-25% of servers. Those of you that think corruption will have any detering effect on douches, have a fantasy view of the world and gamers in general.
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AzryilMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I imagine in a lot of cases people that wish to go out of their way to murder hobo people will just get a friend to kill them to reset corruption periodically.
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AzathothMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@wolfwood82 said "To be clear, my personal opinion is that death penalties serve little to no real purpose in general PvE or PvP except as a means to encourage players to not die. Like with most systems stuffed into MMOs, it's more tradition than sound reasoning, and inevitably does more harm than good to the over all game play. In PvE, it's all but a sadistic means of torturing players in a manner they don't consciously view as torture. For PvP, it's a potential death sentence for any game, as you will die in PvP. Often. And any penalty associated with your death *is* inevitable, and should be carefully scrutinized" - and I do agree.
You also point out you are trying to give a worse case scenario...
I don't go through life assuming worse case scenarios and making decisions based on that, and life has been really good. I've made bad decisions, but that's okay.
I think your last post was well said. I too think that the loss penalties incurred by players due to death are more tradition than anything else. I know D&D players that still do this, "your character died, you'll have to make your next one a level (sometimes more) lower." Why? The new character didn't fail, the old one did.
On the other side I find it the only real way to offer a risk/set-back. If playing the game just rewarded me for effort and never punished me for failure it would be less fun. [For Sure this is not what you were implying, I know that]. Just going at the same mob again and again until I succeeded and could move one would feel like those old side-scroll games, not my thing either.
I think there should be a penalty for failure, regardless of what that failure was. I think the penalty should scale with the task and level of failure.
I still don't think PvP in Ashes is going worse case scenario. If it does, fuck me, I'm a member for life so that was yet another bad decision. My opinion on the best way to fix this would be to remove PvP from the game. But that would be a different game with different rules, and not what I signed on to play.
As for my immature hostility, I'm just really glad the forums are back
+1 Skull & Crown metal coin
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
You do realise that we have all of the thread we made on this very same topic in the archive. Why don't you look at that and see peoples views?
The dead do not squabble as this land’s rulers do. The dead have no desires, petty jealousies or ambitions. A world of the dead is a world at peace
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VolgaireMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
@ninfosho Dear OP, they'll never know how's the feeling of having your boh dropped or running temple>DP, or temple>boat>eremo... I get all your concerns about death penalty, it's just that nowadays people like easy things, you know? I see a white skull, that still raises my heart.
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NagashMember, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Comments
Other people must be able to loot everything from you....because? (everything as in anything is possible to drop)
Why does it have to be possible/ What does it >>add<< that you can take away more of other peoples work beyond what you already get? (pve example extension:) - having done literally nothing for it?
Why is it not enough that people can lose their gear to overkill?
I realize this sounds carebear-ish, but yeah I'm far from that. I just don't get how this is for either side a positive/enriching experience.
You talk about there is no risk, it's too soft:
Without anyone knowing how much of the ressources we do drop, apparently ignoring ressources are the very essence of the game, a legendary boss monsters hide/claw is still a ressource that you will have to carry around to through the stages of crafting those into weapons/armor.
Without anyone knowing how much it costs to repair armor/weapons which doesn't just cost money but ressources again.
I'm not saying stop talking about it, but you might want to stop acting like this is World of Warcraft and adjust to what we know about Ashes first.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
lol
As a matter of fact I never really got into WoW.
Anyways, I totally agree with your words, that's why I opened with "It's probably too soon".
This discussion is merely to express my concerns for a possible less satisfying outcome I assume possible.
Either way I appreciate everyone partaking.
Your concerns are not possible since they are based on lacking, better said ignored, information.
I remember why I stopped writing more than one explainatory comment. It's literally a waste of time you just want your own view be adopted nothing else.
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
Funny thing is, nothing about this entire thread was about open world PvP. It's about the death penalty used in the game, and how that might affect an individuals enjoyment of the game.
I stated that the death penalty, when combined with the open world PvP, has a real chance of ending the game quickly. Both by driving players away and by stagnating the game's growth and attractiveness to new players. And that is absolutely true.
To be perfectly frank, it does not matter whether *you* choose to rage quit or not. If you choose not to quit because of rampant PKing, great, good for you, be proud you are an adult and not a "carebear". You'll end up quitting because the game's population drops to the triple digits though.
People tend to view this problem as players. And as players, your tendency is to view this problem from exactly one angle, yours. So let me ask you, if you get repeatedly steam rolled and your hard work routinely stolen from you, and your progress routinely stunted by 10k exp deaths whenever a goon 30 levels above you decides to smash you, how long will you keep playing the game?
The goal of the MMO is to advance and have fun. If the corruption system doesn't do it's job and control PKing, and you are smashed 3-5 times a day, you cannot advance. You won't have fun either, because you are just getting smashed. Over and over and over.
You claim you will be an adult and not rage quit. My guess is you claim this on the assumption that you may die once in awhile to a goon. I'm trying to paint a picture of a world where you die 3-5 times from 3-5 goons daily. Would the game be fun then?
Consider all the angles for the death penalty and ask yourself "exactly how many times a day would I put up with being slapped with a 10k debt and lost mats?". Make yourself the victim in your head, only then can you understand how others might feel.
I think most of you should wait for the game to be actually tested before saying how the death penalites should work. Personally I think that the penalties for corruption are enough to get most people to stay away from mindlessly killing green players out in the open and take it to pvp zones (which as far as I remember are confirmed). We went through this extensively on the old forums and it was a topic brought back. Every. Fucking. Week. The discussions always ended the same way, feel free to discuss the system but dont get all bothered about it and start arguments over something we have not even seen with our own eyes.
This is why Intrepid should start releasing updates, we don't know how the fuck the game will work so nevermind new players who might chance upon a misinformed post/article and get a complete turn off from the game because Intrepid are still delaying any hard mmo footage/content.
Why? Did not enough people take your side during a rational argument?
If you ask me if I think the death penalty is too harsh, I will say no.
If you ask if I think I am going to get 'steam rolled' 3-5 times daily, I will say no.
If you, however, say "...you will die 3-5 times a day from PVP you can't handle, do you enjoy that?" the obvious answer is no. That's what we call a loaded question.
Please continue to paint your crappy picture and ask if people want to see it though, that makes me happy.
Forums are back! :h:
I will be a little bit restricted with planned corruption system, but I am okay with that. I have reasoned it this way; Now I have to be more selective with my targets and I need to make one or max few attempts before I stop from that day. I am not going after other players just for having fun, I am going after possible profit. Meaning I will try to find that guy who has fat mule with full of resources.
Moreover, I do not need to be that bad guy either, and I know I would enjoy hunting criminals as well especially because of the bountyhunting system (if it will be implemented reasonable way). So even the open world PvP system is quite restricted, I am trying to enjoy it within the rules. I have no problem to adapt, but I guess that is because I consider myself as a true all around player who enjoys every possible content equally. I can Imagine this would be harder for true hc PvP players.
@Ferryman You precisely described my playing style as well. All I'm trying to say here is I'm afraid there won't be enough "criminals" to enjoy this content to full potential in the first place.
@Nagash having a different perspective than yours makes it automatically wrong for you? you act like I don't deserve to express my opinion. That's the whole purpose of the forums isn't it? commenting "just kill it" will kill the community more than anything.
@Grisu You should read again what I've said.
What in "I agree with you" and "It's too early too know" you misunderstood?
Just relax and take it easy. Eventually Intrepid would do whatever they think is best for the game.
Why being but hurt about someones preference discussed in a forum? Move on.
Anyways, you guys keep arguing PvP although I'm trying to discuss PvE.
Oh not at all. I'm happy that you have your own views but the fact that this is the 17 thread about the same post rattles my bones.
It can be, but we can not know that yet and we just need to wait the upcoming testphases first. If the current corruption system will not have hoped results, then it will be tweaked for sure. However, IF the current system restricts too much open world PvP (devs opinion), I do not see it as a solution to make system more penalizing to those who are the targets. I think it would be better to penalize less those corrupted players.
This is more like common problem generally in these forums. And I am not referring to @Nagash post. I understand his point and I kind of agree, this topic has heavily argued and talked many times.
However, we should remember, that some people might have talked same topics several times, but still some people only few or first time. So my suggestion is those who gets irritated of the same topics, just leave them be if you do not want to discuss about them anymore. There is no need to join in conversation just for sake of joining. It is so simple.
There was this another topic where someone was pondering, that is Ashes community enough friendly for newcomers. And I think it is not. People welcomes very nicely all new people, but when they take part to conversations they might be ripped a part straight away. I can imagine they do not get very friendly first impression.
Same with people who make the mistake to critisize the game or developers doings, those usually gets really unwelcome responses from the white knights. This faction usually takes critisisms almost like personal insults.
At the end, basic forum behaviour what I have acknowledge too see almost everywhere. Just based on my experience and opinion, and this can differ a lot from others of course.
So as much as I hate say "No end game" as soon as possible every time a thread pops up, I will do it.
As much as I don't care about PvP, every time a thread pops up I read it.
@ninfosho, your welcome.
As for PvE deaths penalties, I still don't think they are too harsh. I don't want to do a spirit run. I would also prefer there not being shrines that people heal/resurrect 3 or 5 minutes apart from each other. However, even though I am a casual and will only play maybe 10hrs a week, I am fine with having to back track 20 minutes or more if I was in a sweetly dangerous place. I know that's too much for some PvE players, so I hope there is a balance (please no hearth stones or fast travel or spirit runs).
Actually there is nothing wrong if people gives their answers everytime, but it is more about how they do it. In most situations there is always someone argueing opposite so no one should take a pressure about that.
Ask yourself this: What if few people gets wrong impression about something? So what? What so bad will happen because of that? This actually helped me to just let go from some "battles"..
At the end, everybody is responsible of him/herself to collect information from right places. Forum is semi-good place imo.
But here are a couple of questions.
If you are corrupt out in the wilds and a caravan happens along and you sign up to attack/defend will corruption be removed if you are killed attacking/defending the caravan?
Will your corruption cause your pvp effectiveness to be decreased while attacking/defending the caravan? or will it be set to its none corrupted level while in the pvp zone?
If I am guarding a caravan and see a corrupt player, they will be treated as a hostile regardless.
Yeah they should have pinned a few of those threads from the past forums, great read. Very informative.
we do have a search bar yet no one ever uses it
Since it's easier to bitch about it in a few more threads, and when the game comes out we will still have people complaining how to make it better etc.
Either way I am still waiting for the answer to
"How is this any different from items getting destroyed on death, which is a thing in Ashes universally, pvp as well as pve."
I can be a life devouring nightmare. - Grisu#1819
So you pulled one quote completely out of context and responded to that. Strawman. Great. We're done here.
Thanks for purposely dodging the point.
P.S: Your fears are unfounded and I find your hostility annoying and immature. Stop it. The question was raised "what are the thoughts on death penalty for PvE/PvP". I offered my opinions and supporting concepts/ideas/theories/experiences. I really don't care if people agree/disagree with them, I have a right to voice said opinions and attempt to share my perspective.
@Autumnleaf
My statements are based on game theory and actual game development techniques, as well as personal experiences and observations from over 20 years of MMO gaming. Not on what Intrepid has right now. I don't know what the death penalty in the game is right now (for either PvP or PvE), and I don't really care since it's not even in Alpha 2 and everything is subject to change. I know what will result in empty servers quickly, and what won't. Harsh penalties in an unpredictable game will result in rapid and permanent drops in player bases. And, from what I've heard, AoC is going to be unpredictable (no level based zones and open world PvP, two factors that will ensure no two game sessions will be the same daily grind).
Unpredictable game play is a good thing, but the penalties need to be curbed accordingly. Players absolutely *love* pretending they are hard core and will insist on the harshest penalties they can think of right up until they have to personally deal with the consequences themselves. Which is specifically why I ask people to consider dealing with the consequences in worse case scenarios *instead* of what they normally consider. Game development techniques>player grandstanding.
This is not intended to turn players off of the game, it's intended to make sure players that want a hard core penalty system actively consider facing the full blown consequences of that system, rather than assume they will kick everyone else's ass and be top dawg. It's literally meant to curb players away from blatantly making demands they themselves will regret. Like P2W systems (which became a thing because players wanted ways to spend money to make games easier...). And yes players always make demands they later regret, there is such a thing as players paradox.
@Grisu @ninfosho
To be clear, my personal opinion is that death penalties serve little to no real purpose in general PvE or PvP except as a means to encourage players to not die. Like with most systems stuffed into MMOs, it's more tradition than sound reasoning, and inevitably does more harm than good to the over all game play. In PvE, it's all but a sadistic means of torturing players in a manner they don't consciously view as torture. For PvP, it's a potential death sentence for any game, as you will die in PvP. Often. And any penalty associated with your death *is* inevitable, and should be carefully scrutinized.
As far as AoC is concerned, I'm not particularly worried. The corruption system has a very clearly defined purpose, and as long as the Dev Team pursues that purpose, it will work. For PvE, again aside from exp debt and item decay, I don't see any need to tack on dropped mats given the unpredictable game environment.
It might be neat if you could drop mats in PvE (instead of item decay, mind you) if creatures that might actually utilize them kill you. I could see goblins or bandits stealing your mats just like a player might, and would welcome a game system that took that into consideration. I can't see A_Large_Rat swiping your mats though, but it might gnaw on your armor a bit.
Yes.There will be hundreds of Billy's on every server, and thousand on 20-25% of servers. Those of you that think corruption will have any detering effect on douches, have a fantasy view of the world and gamers in general.
You also point out you are trying to give a worse case scenario...
I don't go through life assuming worse case scenarios and making decisions based on that, and life has been really good. I've made bad decisions, but that's okay.
I think your last post was well said. I too think that the loss penalties incurred by players due to death are more tradition than anything else. I know D&D players that still do this, "your character died, you'll have to make your next one a level (sometimes more) lower." Why? The new character didn't fail, the old one did.
On the other side I find it the only real way to offer a risk/set-back. If playing the game just rewarded me for effort and never punished me for failure it would be less fun. [For Sure this is not what you were implying, I know that]. Just going at the same mob again and again until I succeeded and could move one would feel like those old side-scroll games, not my thing either.
I think there should be a penalty for failure, regardless of what that failure was. I think the penalty should scale with the task and level of failure.
I still don't think PvP in Ashes is going worse case scenario. If it does, fuck me, I'm a member for life so that was yet another bad decision. My opinion on the best way to fix this would be to remove PvP from the game. But that would be a different game with different rules, and not what I signed on to play.
As for my immature hostility, I'm just really glad the forums are back
Most people dont realize there is an archive it seems.
thats means I can upload all my old posts and now one will care