Why does no MMORPG ever implement the shield and spear weapon combination?

Damokles

Seriously guys!
The only class to use a "spear" (more like a lance) and shield in an MMORPG, at least as far as i know, is the lancer from Tera...
It would be really cool, if tanks had the ability to specc into holding a spear in one hand and a shield in another, like a spartan hoplite.
They could give the spear slower attackspeed or something in return, but i really like the idea of forcing the enemy to keep his distance.

Birdie

Because in most games, spears are two handed weapons. Spears can only be used while in formation to keep the enemy troops in a distance. Also strong against cavalry. However it's not useful in 1v1 combat. You can't win with a spear and a shield!
(That's the realistic point of view of course)

Damokles

@Birdie
From an realistic point of view? Okay lets analyze the pro and cons of a spear vs sword in a sword vs spear debate
First of all: i have to agree that the spear and shield combo is strongest in a formation.
But here comes my problem with sword and board tanking of giant monsters.
A spear would give you the actual reach to fight against monstrous (dragons, trolls, gints etc) creatures.
Swords would require you to stand beneath monsters and try to keep their aggro, while a spear would allow you to stab your enemies from a distance (example monster hunter in this instance).
Okay, lets leave tanking in PvE scenarios, and focus on a PvP standpoint. The sword has the pro of a higher attackfrequency, but it also forces you to engage the enemy in extreme close combat.
I saw in Apocalypse that weapons like the spear and helbard are at an advantage, even if we exclude the abilities.
Players with swords had to overcome the natural extra distance that these weapons provided. I could get at least one extra attack in, before the sword user could even think about reaching me.

Birdie

The edge of a spear is small most of the times so if the enemy dodges it you'll just hit him with the pole which won't do anything and he'll have the time to react and stab you. In PVE against big mobs I agree with you though

Damokles

Birdie wrote: »

The edge of a spear is small most of the times so if the enemy dodges it you'll just hit him with the pole which won't do anything and he'll have the time to react and stab you. In PVE against big mobs I agree with you though

Im just saying that it would be a nice addition to the current tank weapons, purely an addition no mainstay weapon

grisu

https://youtu.be/DqtQ1eWxHPY?t=785

Unless the spear is like 4 meters long which starts to go into oversized weapon territory to really distinguish itself for monster play I don't get the logic behind it(especially since it starts to create other problems). The thing tho is, it's a game, it doesn't need logic. Either way it would be a nice idea if their was a weapon combination like that even if it's just visually if not gameplay wise.

Blackhearted

How about the weapon vs type of armor?
Sword vs plate and chainmail?

Small tip hitting armor creates greater pressurepoint, so do spears penetrate armor better?

Like a full plate 2h spear versus a sword+shield in plates?
Are the plates rounded enough to deflect spears?

Damokles

grisu wrote: »

https://youtu.be/DqtQ1eWxHPY?t=785

Unless the spear is like 4 meters long which starts to go into oversized weapon territory to really distinguish itself for monster play I don't get the logic behind it(especially since it starts to create other problems). The thing tho is, it's a game, it doesn't need logic. Either way it would be a nice idea if their was a weapon combination like that even if it's just visually if not gameplay wise.

Would you rather have a pointy stick that is around 2m+ long or a sharp and pointy stick that is 1m long? 1m is sometimes all that is between you and death

Birdie

I would like to see spear and shield to be honest. I'm just stating why I think it's not a thing in most games!

Corpier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLLv8E2pWdk"]https://youtube.com/watch?v=uLLv8E2pWdk[
Not actually scientific in the least, but spears usually win against swords 1v1. Sword and shield has an advantage, but is usually about even against spear 1v1. Sword and shield wins against spear and shield 1v1. Finally in the case of groups: spear wins against sword, spear and shield wins against sword and shield when faced head on, but given more angles of attack sword/sword and shield wins. Essentially, unless both sides line up in phalanx groups, spear and shield is a terrible weapon combination because it sacrifices the mobility and speed of a spear and cannot fully utilize its reach via weaker thrusting force with one hand. Lining up in formation happens A LOT in actual war but almost NEVER in video game combat, so its not a great choice.

Plateau

Just FYI, Skyforge is another MMO that has a spear+shield class (the Knight). The game is pretty P2W, but the leveling experience might still be worth it. It's been a long while since I checked it out, though, so it might be dead already.

Birdie

Spear and shield is more defensive than offensive

Magic Man

I think it's because shield would have no purpose in tab targeted combat unless there's active blocking.

Damokles

Birdie wrote: »

Spear and shield is more defensive than offensive

Which would make sense for a tank though

Atama

I rocked a spear and shield for a long time on my Guardian in Lord of the Rings Online.

LotRO also has a class closely identified with the spear and shield combo, the Warden. But a Champion and Captain can use that combo fine too.

Ravudha

I don't know why everyone's analysing the physics of spears and how they work. I doubt that's the reason they're not in games. If MMO developers can justify scythes and fist weapons there's always a way to justify spears.

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

Birdie

Ravudha wrote: »

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

Not sure if they used wands and staves in the medieval era though

Ravudha

Birdie wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

Not sure if they used wands and staves in the medieval era though

Yeah but those are featured in fiction based off the era (tales of wizards etc). For some reason people who wrote old myths and modern fantasy focus on wands and swords and shields etc and focus less on spears. Maybe some weapons are just naturally more popular *shrug*

MrPancake

I feel like there's a lot of negativity while it's actually something refreshing. Make the spear slower but have more piercing power or something. For the sake of diversity this is a great idea and I would love to see it.

Birdie

Every weapon should have its purpose. For example, spear could be strong against heavy armor because heavy armor wearers are slower and it's easier for you to pierce their armor with a spear from a safe distance. However, it could be weak against light armors because light armor wearers are faster and they could easily dodge the attack. However, because dodging 80% of the attacks would make it VERY unbalanced, it should just lower the damage done instead. Like, not dodging the full attack but avoiding getting hit to any vital organ.

T Elf

My main was a pierce Heroine in DAoC with shield and spear. Had a blast.

Ravudha

I'd like to see spears just for the visual impact. Spears in some other games, and their attack animations, look insanely cool; they could look like halberds, tridents, etc.

Damokles

Ravudha wrote: »

I'd like to see spears just for the visual impact. Spears in some other games, and their attack animations, look insanely cool; they could look like halberds, tridents, etc.

The thing is that Ashes already has spears implemented into the game. But they are currently only twohanded weapons (they also have a seperate weapon halberd )

Nagash

because you can't kill a skeleton with a spear I mean everyone knows that

Damokles

Nagash wrote: »

because you can't kill a skeleton with a spear I mean everyone knows that

Just twist the pitchfork or use the spear like a club in a sweeping manner?

Atama

Ravudha wrote: »

Birdie wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

Not sure if they used wands and staves in the medieval era though

Yeah but those are featured in fiction based off the era (tales of wizards etc). For some reason people who wrote old myths and modern fantasy focus on wands and swords and shields etc and focus less on spears. Maybe some weapons are just naturally more popular *shrug*

That’s really the key here. Tolkien didn’t feature spears prominently, and the whole fantasy genre followed him. Spears were not given much attention in D&D, which clearly copied LotR, and all the fantasy authors and fantasy RPGs that followed largely ignored spears as well.

In reality the spear is the most critical hand to hand melee weapon in the history of warfare, whether you’re taking eastern or western history. But blame the Fellowship of the Ring for all that followed, and nobody at Rivendell stepping up to say, “You have my spear.”

Damokles

Atama wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

Birdie wrote: »

Ravudha wrote: »

My guess: when designing fantasy people think Western medieval, and spears are way down the list of weapons that most people think of from that era. Maybe some Eastern MMOs include spears because they feature a bit more prominently in their military history (just a guess).

Not sure if they used wands and staves in the medieval era though

Yeah but those are featured in fiction based off the era (tales of wizards etc). For some reason people who wrote old myths and modern fantasy focus on wands and swords and shields etc and focus less on spears. Maybe some weapons are just naturally more popular *shrug*

That’s really the key here. Tolkien didn’t feature spears prominently, and the whole fantasy genre followed him. Spears were not given much attention in D&D, which clearly copied LotR, and all the fantasy authors and fantasy RPGs that followed largely ignored spears as well.

In reality the spear is the most critical hand to hand melee weapon in the history of warfare, whether you’re taking eastern or western history. But blame the Fellowship of the Ring for all that followed, and nobody at Rivendell stepping up to say, “You have my spear.”

Now that you mention it.... the only time you really see spears in any middle earth movie are:
1. Riders of rohan when they meet Aragorn and friends
2. Siege of Helms Deep wielded by Uruk-Hai, even though those are pikes and not really spears
3. Wielded by orks in the battle for minas tirith and they look really weak, because they meet a charge of 10.000 riders headon
4. Gondorian soldiers that get instantly killed by orks and other foul beasts
5. Wielded by dwarvs in the battle of 5 armies, and they somehow loose them early on and fight with swords and axes......

Nagash

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

because you can't kill a skeleton with a spear I mean everyone knows that

Just twist the pitchfork or use the spear like a club in a sweeping manner?

I wonder if that would work? "DAVE! get a mortal and make him smack Timothy for a few hours with a spear and then report"

Atama

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

because you can't kill a skeleton with a spear I mean everyone knows that

Just twist the pitchfork or use the spear like a club in a sweeping manner?

I wonder if that would work? "DAVE! get a mortal and make him smack Timothy for a few hours with a spear and then report"

Best weapon vs a skeleton is a xylophone mallet. Once you start playing the music off their rib bones, the skeletons will stop what they’re doing and begin a synchronized dance, chattering their teeth and swapping skulls with each other. It’s a major vulnerability that more combatants should take advantage of.

Lyiat

I'm going to be honest, anyone who thinks a sword is a better weapon in a one on one fight has really fallen for the Hollywood depiction of the lone swordfighter. In actuality, swords were mainly backup weapons, to be used in last resort situations where the fighter's main weapon was lost, damaged, or otherwise disabled. Not to mention, with the amount of steel it took to make them, very few people had them. Spears were not only easier to mass produce, but they were far easier to produce and less expensive to arm your soldiery with. They also required less training. It doesn't take much effort to get people to stand in a row and jab a long pointy stick. It does take a lot of effort to teach people to parry and the correct way to cut and slash without exhausting yourself.

Spears vs Swords
Spears have the advantage in reach
Spears have the advantage in skill floor
Swords have the advantage in skill ceiling
Spears have the advantage against armor, spears can puncture mail and chain fair more easily
Spears have the advantage on horse back
Spears have the advantage in cost

And if you honestly doubt me on any of this, look up a SCA heavy list fighting and take a look at the guys still standing after a skirmish. More often than not it's the guys with polearms.

Nagash

Atama wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

Damokles wrote: »

Nagash wrote: »

because you can't kill a skeleton with a spear I mean everyone knows that

Just twist the pitchfork or use the spear like a club in a sweeping manner?

I wonder if that would work? "DAVE! get a mortal and make him smack Timothy for a few hours with a spear and then report"

Best weapon vs a skeleton is a xylophone mallet. Once you start playing the music off their rib bones, the skeletons will stop what they’re doing and begin a synchronized dance, chattering their teeth and swapping skulls with each other. It’s a major vulnerability that more combatants should take advantage of.

im working on fixing that by rapping cloth on their ribs