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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Dev Discussion #10 - Group Composition
LieutenantToast
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Glorious Ashes community - it's time for another Dev Discussion! Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking us questions about Ashes of Creation, we want to ask YOU what your thoughts are.
Our design team has compiled a list of burning questions we'd love to get your feedback on regarding gameplay, your past MMO experiences, and more. Join in on the Dev Discussion and share what makes gaming special to you!
Dev Discussion #10 - Group Composition
Do you prefer groups that require the MMO "trinity" (tank, DPS, healer), or more freeform groups?
Keep an eye out for our next Dev Discussion topic regarding biomes!
3
Comments
Checkmate Leader | EU | The Ashes Post
Having one set of classes be the go-to for all content is not fun.
However, something like Guild Wars 2 attempted an even more open freeform system, but you can see where that landed them... They started to have classes fall into more traditional roles over time because it was easier to balance and gave players more structure around what they like to play.
We also saw tightening of roles in World of Warcraft when they introduced Mythic raids. Blizzard attempted a hybrid functionality with some classes that just couldn't work in Mythic raids because the margin of error has to be lower for raiders in order to challenge them more. By having no roles you cannot make as many assumptions and it becomes a nightmare to balance difficult encounters for the players.
From a game design perspective there has to be some sort of party/raid structure, it doesn't have to follow a trinity system exactly, but without structure you lose balance and then the game becomes stupidly easy or stupidly unfair.
Addon Developer
OG Backer
I liked tanking in 2014 ESO. The only difference between a DPS and a tank was who had a taunt slotted. So long as you could take the heat, you made the cut. Any weapon combination worked, any armor weight worked; you could make 17k HP and 16k resist work so long as you were on point with active defenses.
Then ZOS catapulted enemy damage in the DLC group content. Now you need a shield, heavy armor, 30k HP, 33k resist and block damage reduction just to not get one-shot. The average tank runs 50k HP now. Being a tank went from being a vanguard to being a meatshield armed with a wet noodle. I hate it. This shoehorning of viable builds is what I think of when I hear the term "trinity." I hate it.
Being a tank went from just being durable enough to take the heat and then putting the rest of your stats/gear into supporting the party or dealing damage to putting everything into defense just so you can survive by the skin of your teeth. No more self healing, no more buffing the party, no more dealing damage, no more disabling the enemy -- it's just stack HP, stack armor, hold block and pray your healer has you covered.
THE BAND'S ALL HERE!
The musician role was that of a buffer. In later levels they got a powerful AOE that could contribute to DPS, and they also restored mana to the healers.
The puller could be *any* class. You'd just bring arrows & and bow and go around the area pulling mobs to your group. The downside of this role was that time spent away from the group reduced the amount of exp you would receive, so they'd traditionally level more slowly.
Keeping AoC's class system in mind, as well as my previous experience in MMO's, I think I'd like to see many of the classes have hybrid options. A warrior could pick up a shield for extra defense and tank hits for his group, but a rogue could also have a move that taunted enemies around him and use a "dodge" based tanking method. I know several Warlocks in WoW that wish their Blueberry taunt pets could tank for groups.
I'm playing Classic WoW currently as a druid, and one of my highlights from the past week was when my tank pulled a few too many mobs in Scarlet Monastery before dc'ing. I was the groups healer, but I was able to switch into bear form and successfully tank the pack for my group while a DPS shaman quickly switched to focusing heals on me.
I do foresee some problems, however. As others have mentioned, balancing a bunch of hybrid classes against one another is terribly difficult. This becomes especially apparent in PVP. In Dream of Mirror online, certain classes simply *didn't* PVP. This wasn't a huge issue because you could switch classes on the same character(think FFXIV), but I understand AoC won't have that system.
Another issue I foresee is the inevitable "min/maxxing" of classes. If you take a game like League of Legends or Overwatch and watch high level play, you'll see some common themes in terms of what character is being played in each role for any given meta. For example, during some patches, there is a standout best healer, and it doesn't make sense to play anything else. Despite this, if you join a match, you're likely to see characters that are not the best.
For AoC, it's likely we will have both types of players playing. Those that just want to play whatever is best, and those that want to pick what sounds "cool" to them. Ideally, AoC will have a decent balance so that certain classes don't become must haves while others become literally unplayable.
The risk that is run here is the same that Druid's had in the early patches of classic WoW. Druids were so bad compared to the other classes on launch that the reputation stuck with them through til Burning Crusade, despite them being completely viable in later patches of Vanilla.
Conversely, in retail WoW, at the beginning of BFA characters became less powerful as they leveled, and this felt absolutely awful. A class that is bonkers overpowered at launch that then get's patched to be weaker will always make players feel like crap.
Tl;dr
I think we should non-traditional tanking methods such as "dodge" or "pet" based tanks. Ideally, players will start out abysmally weak. Survivability and DPS should be in tug-o-war, with tankier characters doing less DPS, and glass cannons getting obliterated as easily as they obliterate to create balance.
After all the trinity is probably going to be the best "easy" team comb to play anyway so you shouldnt make it eather to boring to play nor to powerfull so you "cant" play anything else.
Alsow interresting would be if there would be some benefits if you would go Dungeondiving with a divers team as possible, like extra loot ore sth. a'like.
My last thougt on the topic would be, that you shouldnt make to much dungeons that need a specifique number of participans.
This may seem abit against the howl spirit of AOC but some times you just wan to hang out with 3 friends and dont want to care about some random Guy may ore may not "sabotaging" the Dungeondive.
I like when roles are emphasized and encouraged to promote teamwork and when diverse class/role mechanics exist for each role in different content. I think it adds replayability to content if you can experience it from the perspective of multiple roles and each does different things in the same content. Additionally, different content could promote different preferred group compositions, one might only take 1 tank and 1 healer, another having multiple bosses or lots of mobs at once could benefit from 2-3 tanks and/or multiple healers. I would like to see each class/role to contribute uniquely to group play and offer rewards in effectiveness or opportunities for organizing to have all roles and diverse classes. Examples might include bringing a dedicated tank to allow damage dealers to push harder without worrying as much about getting aggro, or bringing a rogue would allow additional loot opportunities from chests they can open by lockpicking that others cannot.
However, I don't like when group elements are strict or require all roles present regardless of content as it can lock players out of playing with who they want and what roles/classes they want to play. I don't want to see situations where people have to pass over bringing a friend who mains a mage damage dealer because they are already bringing a mage/damage dealer from their guild and neither have an alt of the class/role needed to bring 1 of all 8 archetypes or 1 of all 3 roles. If players can do skillful things or have a diversity of build options to do things like timing dodges or spec into self heals, then being able to casually farm loot with friends without having a 15 minute debate on who brings what class/role would be great.
I still must emphasize, that I think there should be content that, if not requires, encourages bringing all roles for the sake of maximizing effectiveness for completion. Yet, other than difficult content people should have freedom to have viable diverse group compositions and wide build variety to creatively problem solve through content.
On the other hand it would be acceptable if enough templars and paladins could take over the job of both tanking and healing during the fight, but not being able to do any role at the highest level.
Pure "diagonal" classes should be dominantly best in their respective field, but weak in other roles, while hibrid classes should be jack of all trades, but master of nothing.
A big raid against a world boss would strictly require a few pure classes while having mostly hibrid classes, however a small group for lesser places could be made out of only hibrid classes.
I do think its possible though to have those requirements/roles be split up in different ways, though. But only if the class/stat systems allow players to trade their abilities freely, without losing or gaining overall power. Which means, for example, you can't have a stat that only benefits heals/healers. Then, theoretically, anyone in the party could be responsible for the various requirements of the fight, whether that be damage, heals, CC, or even movement. Even the tank's personal mitigation could possibly come from other sources, like damage-down debuffs on the enemy, cast by a bard.
But again, the stat system has to be set-up so that nobody can stack damage/heals/tankiness specifically. Otherwise, players have to focus on one output and be locked into the corresponding role. I'm not sure it's even possible to make a complex/satisfying stat system like that. I imagine it would there would be several stats that affect class resources rather than outputs or abilities. Or you would have make thing like Crit Chance affect everything (damage, heals, block power, buff power, etc.).
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All of that is to say, yeah, free-form groups are possible, even in top-tier challenging content with strict balance requirements. But it's a pretty ambitious goal. And it would involve a lot more coordination within parties, to make sure that they have all the abilities/outputs they need.
I'd rather just have the roles be codified in a trinity system, but let players choose HOW they fill their specific role.
I wouldnt mind getting the basic trinity as Ive seen so many games failing to find any balance in that.
Sometimes simplicity is the essence of happiness.
You're bleeding for salvation, but you can't see that you are the damnation itself." -Norther
So i dont think the question is do we need a tank or do we need a healer.. its more about are there options who can fill these roles. So for example is it possible for a summoner in some skill combination to have a summon that is able to be the tank. Or is a class with cleric second able to heal enough. It would be nice if we were able to find certain class combinations that are able to CC and passiv heal enough so that the holy three arent necessary.
MASS BUFFS OPOP!
Okay seriously now, i believe that the trinity is important for a game, but ONLY in dungeons or raids.
Why do i believe that? Players will always try to fill those roles no mater what!
I played GW2 from the beginning, beta days even, and let me tell you... a trinity less game does not work well at the beginning. Dungeons where hard from the beginning, and without a clear class trinity.... that shit got crazy guys. It was normall that people got partly forced to spec into water elementalist, if they wanted to go ele. I played a melee healing tank support (guardian with one handed hammer and shield + two handed hammer), because i could not rely on my teammates to keep me alive. For those that dont know: the one handed hammer heals every third hit around the caster. That was pretty good at the beginning, but there are some crazy builds nowadays in gw2....
Mesmer(illusionist class) that can indefinitely tank and keep nearly all buffs up on their own, necromancers that can solo heal whole raids with the right spec and knowledge, thief builds that rely solely on autoattacks with a staff, while dodging around the whole room like a chihuahua on crack....
Learn from other games mistakes! The trinity has its place, and it would be foolish to throw it away in my opinion. The trinity give dungeons and raids some groundrules/guidelines.
Even though i believe it should be called the quartet, because the support role does not belong in either.
On the flip side, games that dont require specific roles (not to be confused with specific classes) tend to usually be those that require less party play overall. In my book not making full use of parties is one of the biggest sins any MMO can commit.
Also, the more party members that are allowed by a game, more more hybrid roles/classes make sense. If you have groups of 3 it is much harder to add in that bard or to replace the tank with two semi/off-tanks than if you have a group of 5 or 6 players.
Another version in the game without the trinity or with a lose trinity where you can be a tank but do not need one would also be nice. So those two (or more) playstyles existing next to each other would be great
Formerly T-Elf
Free grouping vs Trinity
Open world vs Instanced PvE
(Made a seperate topic to avoid derailing this feedback thread.)
What does Intrepid Studio have in mind to offer the players?
Personally I prefer free composition and to to leave it up to the players to decide what Classes they need in order to form a group and level up.
1) Open world
Obviously a raid boss (big or small) would require one or two tanks to take the hits for the team, and obviously a healer is needed to keep the tank alive.
Some terrains would require a healer to keep the whole groups HP from going to 0 and cleanse trrrain debuffs.
2) Instanced PvE.
There will be some instanced PvE.
Personally I think that it would be best to keep them to a minimum because:
a) The game is all about the effect of player actions on the open world. From Nodes to relationships between player guild, every persons actions have an effect.
b)Instanced content is safeguarded by anything mentioned in a).
There should be minimum avenues where players do content without being exposed danger and risk/reward and gain loot/xp.
In instanced PvE (hopefully it will be hard for the sake of challenge) there should be 1-2 tanks healers bards/support depending on the size of the group.
4)Bards/support
In different games they have different names and signature weapons.
Their role is to inspire the group and strengthen them.
A few things about the role that breaks the trinity.
a)Some of these classes empower warriors better, some empower mages better. How will the Group Finder system cater to this role?
What if the group is 1 tank 1 healer 2 magic dps and 1 warrior bard? Fail.
b)Is it worth having a bard in your group?
I used to fight with my mates over this.
We were 1 tank 5 warriors/roques 1 healer. They wanted a bard. I wanted another warrior. Why, for the damage he/she would cause to the enemy.
What if we were 12-15 people? Then I'd prefer a bard to enhance the remaining 14 people and amplify the damage they would cause to the enemy.
In Line][Age bards were respected and sought after. Why? Because the groups were 10 or so and the bard buffs made a difference.
5)Meta
Very often some classes are left outside of a group because others can do more.
I think that Intrepid should work hard of providing the environment, the world with challenges/mechanisms that require specific solutions from specific classes. (Cleric cleanse, roque climb, summoner calm a mighty beast blocking the way etc etc)
Give one environment ability to 80% of the classes. Dont give such a tool to the strongest 1v1 classes.
This way, every class has something to bring to the table of the adventure.
6) Conclusion.
I think the best thing that AoC can do to inprove group composition is to
NOT ADD GROUP FINDER TO THE GAME.
Let the players decide.
Make the players socialize.
I am tired of mmorpgs in which I am parked in the main city and I group up via g.finder with 3 more randoms to form a trinity and rush in silence a 25 min dungeon.
The only issue with that is that if I role Cleric/Cleric I BETTER be the best healer, not supplanted by a rogue with hots.
While I like to play tanks or healers I could see myself playing a dedicated support role.
We have a group with where we have a member who will go in the first row and 4 dps classes where one of the is able to heal, but he do not want, he more like to play purely dps as other members, not make extra focus to see if somebody need healing. He can do same damage as any other member and the main principle is still freefrom group. What should the team do?
-Force somehow the person to heal? The more it happens, the less people want to play with that class in DPS role. So we reduce the freedom on the class selection to win freedom in the group creation.
-Kick the hybrid class? Why he? We talk about freefrom group. He can do same damage as everybody else.
-kick somebody else? If we need to kick somebody, because we need a specialty in a group it is easier if we just say that our group principle is 'trinity'. So we advertise our free position to a specialty so we do not have to force anybody to do something what he do not want.
Other side I am open to make lot of hybrid classes. So I am open for a dodge focused tank role for a rouge. I am open for manashield like healing option for a mage etc. But we always should emphasis that we need a healer, we need a tank. So if you join into a group you will know that you will play in what role.
I am also open for a fourth role like support role.
I say the same exact thing.
For example; enter a dungeon with
Beyond that I would like it possible that groups can scale up for different activities ie
- duo
- trio
- 5
- 7
- 12
- 20
What I don`t want to see if people having to box or (bot) to play solo.