No Substance

Another livestream with no substance. Just more of “this is what we’re doing and this is how it’ll work”. It’s been months and we’re not seeing any progress. Just words and some art. This isn’t open development because we’re barely seeing anything develop. Art and words isn’t open development.
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Comments

  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    What you have preferred to see, or for them to say?
  • vmangman wrote: »
    Another livestream with no substance. Just more of “this is what we’re doing and this is how it’ll work”. It’s been months and we’re not seeing any progress. Just words and some art. This isn’t open development because we’re barely seeing anything develop. Art and words isn’t open development.

    In case you missed the 7 March CD letter, they stopped open development then.
    PQHgamQ.png
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Jahlon wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Another livestream with no substance. Just more of “this is what we’re doing and this is how it’ll work”. It’s been months and we’re not seeing any progress. Just words and some art. This isn’t open development because we’re barely seeing anything develop. Art and words isn’t open development.

    In case you missed the 7 March CD letter, they stopped open development then.

    You could not be further from the truth.

    I will now quote excerpts from the letter that say the exact opposite of what you stated:

    “ Margaret Krohn and Sarah Flanagan who are helping bridge the gap between communication of the development of the game to the community and vice versa. Beginning this month, you will start to see regular content updates on our road to Alpha One”


    “ With the addition of our new community team, you will begin to see new content and regular weekly updates on the progress of the MMORPG, and our journey to Alpha One”

    “ As we move towards our future testing periods, we have taken your feedback regarding development updates, and moving forward we will be focused on updating you more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs. Part of what I have tasked Margaret and Sarah with is defining a Content Roadmap that highlights the project’s development and what goes on behind the scenes”

    “ One of the great things about our project is the ability for you, our community, to look into the development of a game this size”

    “ Moving forward, we will continue working hard on preparing for Alpha One, and giving you greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORP”

    Multiple times through the letter Stephen says the exact opposite of what you just stated, that they’re stopping open development. Care to elaborate where you get your facts or what you mean?
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    What you have preferred to see, or for them to say?

    More than just art and words. They keep talking about destruction, but aren’t showing us anything. We’ve seen art of some races structures, but nothing in game or more detailed information. There’s just a bunch of talk and not much walk.

    They have a self imposed letter that is supposed to drop every 3 months. Every three months... and they couldn’t even get that out. That’s some horrible open development.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    edited November 23
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

    I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    edited November 24
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

    I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.

    Yes, that list proves my point. Most of the things on that list have no substance. So how does you posting a list full of fluff prove my point, that most of Intrepid’s communication lacks substance, wrong?

    I thought you were making an argument to show that Intrepid is full of valuable updates, but instead you proved my point correct by posting a list of fluff. Yes, I am intelligent enough to sift through that list and see that it’s mostly fluff and that it even includes paid cosmetics. So what are you trying to say because you’re currently helping my point?

    Edit: whether you wrote the list or just copy pasted doesn’t make a difference since you ended up using it to prove a point.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

    I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.

    Yes, that list proves my point. Most of the things on that list have no substance. So how does you posting a list full of fluff prove my point, that most of Intrepid’s communication lacks substance, wrong?

    I thought you were making an argument to show that Intrepid is full of valuable updates, but instead you proved my point correct by posting a list of fluff. Yes, I am intelligent enough to sift through that list and see that it’s mostly fluff and that it even includes paid cosmetics. So what are you trying to say because you’re currently helping my point?

    Edit: whether you wrote the list or just copy pasted doesn’t make a difference since you ended up using it to prove a point.

    I consider this a bit of a catch 22 situation for Intrepid. The community have demanded regular updates but games development is a slow process. Weekly updates aren't going to yield much new information that the community will understand. So either Intrepid keep up the regular updates that are largely "fluff", or they stay quiet until something substantial happens, which wouldn't be regular at all.

    Of course, the way you write these threads comes across as you thinking that there is something malicious going on. Do you believe that either Intrepid are holding out on us with information or that they are slacking off?
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

    I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.

    Yes, that list proves my point. Most of the things on that list have no substance. So how does you posting a list full of fluff prove my point, that most of Intrepid’s communication lacks substance, wrong?

    I thought you were making an argument to show that Intrepid is full of valuable updates, but instead you proved my point correct by posting a list of fluff. Yes, I am intelligent enough to sift through that list and see that it’s mostly fluff and that it even includes paid cosmetics. So what are you trying to say because you’re currently helping my point?

    Edit: whether you wrote the list or just copy pasted doesn’t make a difference since you ended up using it to prove a point.

    I consider this a bit of a catch 22 situation for Intrepid. The community have demanded regular updates but games development is a slow process. Weekly updates aren't going to yield much new information that the community will understand. So either Intrepid keep up the regular updates that are largely "fluff", or they stay quiet until something substantial happens, which wouldn't be regular at all.

    Of course, the way you write these threads comes across as you thinking that there is something malicious going on. Do you believe that either Intrepid are holding out on us with information or that they are slacking off?

    The last substantial update was the last Know Your Nodes blog. That was six months ago. I explained all of this in another thread.

    So yes, when in 6 months of development we’re basically only getting fluff I will call Intrepid out.

    I’m just saying that they’re not being honest and someone needs to call them out. When after 6 months of development with almost no substantial update and a missed self imposed Creative Director’s Letter we get a livestream as lackluster as yesterday’s something needs to be said.
  • vmangman wrote: »
    So yes, when in 6 months of development we’re basically only getting fluff I will call Intrepid out.
    In what way are you qualified to call out a game developer?

  • We all know people are gonna bitch and moan up to and after they show us a completed game
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited November 24
    Caeryl wrote: »
    We all know people are gonna bitch and moan up to and after they show us a completed game

    Yeah, some people are never happy.

    I don't get the complaint. The OP complains that all the developers showed us was art and words, and he wants to see destruction. Destruction is just art.

    Its like some people don't realize that producing a game of this size is a massive undertaking - one that takes 5 years or longer - and that the first half of that will produce almost nothing at all to show.

    It also doesn't help that these same people somehow seem to think an MMO can begin development before the company has money to pay for said development. Basically, it's just obvious to me that some people just don't understand how the world works.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    noaani wrote: »
    Caeryl wrote: »
    We all know people are gonna bitch and moan up to and after they show us a completed game

    Yeah, some people are never happy.

    I don't get the complaint. The OP complains that all the developers showed us was art and words, and he wants to see destruction. Destruction is just art.

    Its like some people don't realize that producing a game of this size is a massive undertaking - one that takes 5 years or longer - and that the first half of that will produce almost nothing at all to show.

    It also doesn't help that these same people somehow seem to think an MMO can begin development before the company has money to pay for said development. Basically, it's just obvious to me that some people just don't understand how the world works.

    Bro, you are so full of shit. Stop talking because you’re wasting everyone’s time. It’s absolutely impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you because you literally just spew nonsense out of your bum at all times.

    I’ll now make bullet points in hopes that you might somehow by a miracle understand simple things:
    -I didn’t ask for destruction. I asked for substance. Destruction was just an example because Intrepid does so much talking about it.
    -destruction is literally not just art. That’s why it’s taking them so long to show it because it’s complex and they want to have something really good to show. Are you an idiot? How can you possibly claim that destruction is just art?????
    -the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????
    -what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.

    I keep messaging you back hoping that you’ll get your head out of you bum and put forward a coherent thought that makes sense within the conversation, but you fail to do so over and over again. It’s an absolute waste of time talking to you.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    I think you should stick to reddit, seems they will feed your anger and frustration more.

    Everyone here has made valid points of discussion and I believe this post has had its run.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Makinoji wrote: »
    I think you should stick to reddit, seems they will feed your anger and frustration more.

    Everyone here has made valid points of discussion and I believe this post has had its run.

    I’m good thanks.
    You didn’t answer when I said that your list proves my point.
    And Noaani’s points are literally nonsense, as I showed in my response to him. If you think I’m wrong in the counter arguments I brought to his points please explain. Almost nothing of what he said is a valid point.
  • MakinojiMakinoji Member, Warrior of Old
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    I think you should stick to reddit, seems they will feed your anger and frustration more.

    Everyone here has made valid points of discussion and I believe this post has had its run.

    I’m good thanks.
    You didn’t answer when I said that your list proves my point.
    And Noaani’s points are literally nonsense, as I showed in my response to him. If you think I’m wrong in the counter arguments I brought to his points please explain. Almost nothing of what he said is a valid point.

    That list was for you to look over not for me to dissect for you as I said before. If you wanted the non-fluff you'd find it but you're so focused on what you want to see and hear.

    I don't blame anyone for not responding to you when you tell them this, which is a violation of the forum rules...

    "Bro, you are so full of shit. Stop talking because you’re wasting everyone’s time. It’s absolutely impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you because you literally just spew nonsense out of your bum at all times"

    Once that happens there's actually no point to further any discussions.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    I think you should stick to reddit, seems they will feed your anger and frustration more.

    Everyone here has made valid points of discussion and I believe this post has had its run.

    I’m good thanks.
    You didn’t answer when I said that your list proves my point.
    And Noaani’s points are literally nonsense, as I showed in my response to him. If you think I’m wrong in the counter arguments I brought to his points please explain. Almost nothing of what he said is a valid point.

    That list was for you to look over not for me to dissect for you as I said before. If you wanted the non-fluff you'd find it but you're so focused on what you want to see and hear.

    I don't blame anyone for not responding to you when you tell them this, which is a violation of the forum rules...

    "Bro, you are so full of shit. Stop talking because you’re wasting everyone’s time. It’s absolutely impossible to have an intelligent conversation with you because you literally just spew nonsense out of your bum at all times"

    Once that happens there's actually no point to further any discussions.

    The point is that that list is full of fluff. Yes, there are some non-fluff elements, but they are no where close to the majority. The list is full of fluff and I don’t need to look through it much to see that especially since I’ve kept up with all development since the beginning.

    And Noaani always talks out of his bum. I’ve called him out on it over and over again across multiple threads and his blatant lying in this thread was the last straw. Yes, I was harsh, but he is literally lying to our faces: “destruction is just art”? “ It also doesn't help that these same people somehow seem to think an MMO can begin development before the company has money to pay for said development”? Destruction is not just art and Ashes definitely had funding before the Kickstarter because Steven is fully funding it. Those are complete lies and he constantly uses lies to support his points. I’ve had enough of him constantly spewing them.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited November 24
    vmangman wrote: »
    -the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????
    First half of development?

    The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

    A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

    To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.
    vmangman wrote: »
    -what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.
    There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

    Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

    Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    noaani wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    -the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????
    First half of development?

    The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

    A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

    To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.
    vmangman wrote: »
    -what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.
    There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

    Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

    Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

    Literally a waste of time.
  • vmangman wrote: »
    noaani wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    -the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????
    First half of development?

    The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

    A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

    To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.
    vmangman wrote: »
    -what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.
    There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

    Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

    Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

    Literally a waste of time.

    That seems like what someone says when they are faced with facts that prove their position to be nonsensical and untenable, yet don't wish face the fact that they may have been wrong all along.
  • leameseleamese Member, Braver of Worlds
    I disagree with the original poster. I liked the livestream. We saw mmo stuff and they talked about development. You can clearly see that are advancing. It is not as open as they promised, but I'm cool with it.
  • vmangmanvmangman Member, Founder
    noaani wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    -the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????
    First half of development?

    The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

    A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

    To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.
    vmangman wrote: »
    -what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.
    There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

    Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

    Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.


    Haha ok. Here we go.

    If you say that the game is at best 15% developed after about 3 years that means we need another 15 years or so to reach 100% considering that the development speed will more or less stay linear. Let’s say 12 years to be generous because the first couple years were slower development. That’s insane and I once again proved how you are talking out of your bum. Not to mention that you pulled those numbers out of thin air with clearly nothing to back them up. By your pathetic math Intrepid would be done with the game by 2032 at best. Hahahahaha.

    Steven said he had $30 million of his money ready to invest. You’re once again pulling information out of your bum and saying that that money wasn’t ready to be invested and it was just tied up in real state. If you want to call Steven a liar and say that he didn’t actually have the money and wasn’t willing to invest unless he saw that the Kickstarter did well then go ahead

    And you didn’t even address the fact that you think DESTRUCTION IS MERELY ART. Hahaha.

    Dude you’re a joke. Stop talking. It’s seriously embarrassing.
  • noaaninoaani Member
    edited November 24
    vmangman wrote: »
    If you say that the game is at best 15% developed after about 3 years that means we need another 15 years or so to reach 100% considering that the development speed will more or less stay linear.
    Nope.

    Virtually every MMO ramps it's staffing level up from a few people pre-development (Ashes in 2017), to a few dozen for initial development (Intrepid in 2019), up to a few hundred - when you include work contracted out to other studios - for the 12 - 18 months before release (Intrepid in 2022/2023).

    If we follow your logic - that Intrepid are 3 years in to developing Ashes, and that development of an MMO is linear, then that would mean that Steven had a fully staffed studio in 2016.

    If this is not an argument you are willing to make and hold to, then you have to reconsider another aspect of your argument as well - either the linear statement or the 3 years of development statement, at least one of them does not fit if you do not also then argue that Intrepid had a fully staffed studio in 2016.

    Now, if Intrepid had that fully staffed studio up and running back then, why did Steven make such a big deal in 2018 about staff hires and the fact that his team was always expanding.

    And lets not forget the need to move to a larger office.

    Now, I'm not going to tell you which parts of your argument I think you should reconsider, I'm going to leave that to you. However, you can't logically claim that MMO development is linear and that Intrepid have been in development for 3 years when we have comments directly from Intrepid about how their staff is expanding.
    vmangman wrote: »
    Steven said he had $30 million of his money ready to invest.
    If you have $30 million you can invest in a product, you have it invested elsewhere until that project is ready to roll.

    This is one of the differences between people with $30 million and people without $30 million.

    Saying it is ready to invest does not mean that it is sitting in a bank. It means that he is willing to liquidate assets that are easy to liquidate in order to fund the game.
    vmangman wrote: »
    And you didn’t even address the fact that you think DESTRUCTION IS MERELY ART. Hahaha.
    Please explain to me what part of destruction Intrepid could show us that is not art.

  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds
    edited November 24
    Yeah! That's what I want to know.
    What counts as open development besides art and words???
    A video showcasing siege destruction would still be art. I guess vmangman means is still art or concept art.

    Friday's livestream focused on siege destruction and revealed that part of the delay for sieges has been the devs waiting to try to incorporate the Unreal Chaos system and finally deciding to try to code something similar themselves. Dunno how they could be more open about that.
    I suppose they could remain completely silent about the progress on siege destruction development until they have an action video to demo that destruction - but that would be closer to the closed development that should be the crux of the complaint. That would be the equivalent of Nodes 3-caliber closed development.

    We've been told that the delay in the Divine Nodes article is that aspects of the designs for Divine Nodes and Military Nodes have significantly changed - we don't necessarily need the details of the original designs for that to be considered open communication... though it would be nice to get that reasoning a couple of months earlier than we did.

    I dunno why anyone would expect development pace to remain linear when Steven continues to increase the number of staff. Also, Agile development is modular, so it's easy to build upon more quickly upon the foundation(s).
    While I do think that we should already have more races available than just Humans at this point in development, I also know that it's not going to take three years for the devs to give us Dwarves another three years for the devs to give us Orcs, another three years for the devs to give us Elves and another three years for the devs to give us Tulnar.
    That's not the way Agile development works - it's not even the way Waterfall development works.

    What's the major mistake of the March Creative Director's Letter??: Steven raising the expectation that there will be weekly updates of info for MMORPG development.
    But, people should have known by then, and should certainly know by now, that Steven's dates should be disregarded - especially since he is the stop-gate that causes those dates to be missed. Nodes 3 is coming "Soon!"

    "Our goal is to regularly provide you with updates on the progress of development through videos, articles, and art assets in a more consistent way."
    ---Steven Sharif

    I dunno that it's true that we've been getting weekly updates on the MMORPG, but it is true that we have been getting updates on the progress of MMORPG development several times per month... it's just that the bulk of those updates are art assets for creatures, like the Dragons and the Troll, rather than articles and mechanics videos.
    Everyone would love more articles and more mechanics videos, but, there have been significant delays - delays compared to Steven's original (unrealistic) estimates.
    Heck - even the most recent quarterly Creative Directors Letter has been delayed/skipped.

    The complaint seems to be that IS is not as transparent as they used to be, but... quite a lot of that previous transparency was dates that IS can't meet. No point in having that continue.
    And I am happy to have early access to game assets, environments and gameplay features in exchange for that manner of "transparency".
    We'll have to see what changes Chapter 2 of Apoc brings us (Dec 17th?) - and - how quickly we get access to play Castle Siege Mode.
  • RokoRoko Member, Braver of Worlds
    Development as a whole, not just in games, is a very slow process. And some times it even requires developers to go back and rework stuff they had already worked on. like they said happened with the network architecture back in December making it even slower because it means no news until new headway is made.

    What this means for us the spectators is that we have to compromise on one of two things. Either we get constant news that are all filler and no killer. Or we get incredibly slow news (some times 6 months or longer as you mentioned) with the killer stuff. we can't expect it to go both ways. it's not realistic and it doesn't mean they are not being transparent, it just means the development is just not keeping up with news cycles. so they are forced to fill it with fluff if they want to put something out.

    TL:DR substance takes time, that's why we must endure 6 months or longer to get it.
    Santy-Previous-Sig.png
    It is when we hit our lowest point. That we are open to the Greatest Change.
    -Avatar Aang
  • I saw two things I liked:
    1) The Trebuchet (spelling?) [from Alex]
    2) And the Elder Red Dragon

    TOTALLY AWESOME.
  • Wandering MistWandering Mist Member, Founder
    vmangman wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    vmangman wrote: »
    Makinoji wrote: »
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

    Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

    There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

    Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

    The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

    These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

    Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
    APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
    Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.


    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
    2019-11-22 Livestream
    2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
    2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
    2019-11-05 Newsletter
    2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
    2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
    2019-10-31 Livestream
    2019-10-12 Newsletter
    2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
    2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
    2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
    2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
    2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
    2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
    2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
    2019-09-27 Livestream
    2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
    2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
    2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
    2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
    2019-09-04 Newsletter
    2019-08-29 Livestream
    2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
    2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
    2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
    2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
    2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
    2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
    2019-08-06 Newsletter
    2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
    2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
    2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
    2019-07-26 Livestream
    2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
    2019-07-02 Newsletter
    2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
    2019-06-28 Livestream
    2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
    2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
    2019-06-04 Newsletter
    2019-05-30 Livestream
    2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
    2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
    2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
    2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
    2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
    2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
    2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
    2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
    2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
    2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
    2019-04-04 Newsletter
    2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
    2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
    2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
    2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
    2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
    2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
    2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
    2019-03-08 Livestream
    2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
    2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

    Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

    The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

    And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

    I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.

    Yes, that list proves my point. Most of the things on that list have no substance. So how does you posting a list full of fluff prove my point, that most of Intrepid’s communication lacks substance, wrong?

    I thought you were making an argument to show that Intrepid is full of valuable updates, but instead you proved my point correct by posting a list of fluff. Yes, I am intelligent enough to sift through that list and see that it’s mostly fluff and that it even includes paid cosmetics. So what are you trying to say because you’re currently helping my point?

    Edit: whether you wrote the list or just copy pasted doesn’t make a difference since you ended up using it to prove a point.

    I consider this a bit of a catch 22 situation for Intrepid. The community have demanded regular updates but games development is a slow process. Weekly updates aren't going to yield much new information that the community will understand. So either Intrepid keep up the regular updates that are largely "fluff", or they stay quiet until something substantial happens, which wouldn't be regular at all.

    Of course, the way you write these threads comes across as you thinking that there is something malicious going on. Do you believe that either Intrepid are holding out on us with information or that they are slacking off?

    The last substantial update was the last Know Your Nodes blog. That was six months ago. I explained all of this in another thread.

    So yes, when in 6 months of development we’re basically only getting fluff I will call Intrepid out.

    I’m just saying that they’re not being honest and someone needs to call them out. When after 6 months of development with almost no substantial update and a missed self imposed Creative Director’s Letter we get a livestream as lackluster as yesterday’s something needs to be said.

    Sigh, and yet you are trying to call them out from a position of ignorance, not only of what they are doing but of how games development works in general. It is perfectly normal for a games studio to finish a lot of the artwork before anything else, as it doesn't rely on other departments to get going. In fact, it's not uncommon for artists to be drafted into other departments in order to speed things along once the majority of the artwork is completed.
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