No Substance

Another livestream with no substance. Just more of “this is what we’re doing and this is how it’ll work”. It’s been months and we’re not seeing any progress. Just words and some art. This isn’t open development because we’re barely seeing anything develop. Art and words isn’t open development.

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Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

-the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????

First half of development?

The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.

vmangman wrote: »

-what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.

There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

-the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????

First half of development?

The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.

vmangman wrote: »

-what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.

There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

Literally a waste of time.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

-the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????

First half of development?

The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.

vmangman wrote: »

-what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.

There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

Literally a waste of time.

That seems like what someone says when they are faced with facts that prove their position to be nonsensical and untenable, yet don't wish face the fact that they may have been wrong all along.

leamese

I disagree with the original poster. I liked the livestream. We saw mmo stuff and they talked about development. You can clearly see that are advancing. It is not as open as they promised, but I'm cool with it.

VmanGman

noaani wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

-the first half of the development literally produced a playable BR so you’re an idiot for saying it’s nonsense for people to expect something to be shown after the first half. They’re literally showing a playable BR after the first half so how can you say that the first half had nothing to show for it?????

First half of development?

The game is at about 15% developed right now - at best.

A BR takes about 5% of the development time of a full MMO, that is why so many game developers make them. I mean, they are literally MMO's with worlds about 5% of the size, without quests, with far fewer classes, a much simpler combat system with hardly any equipment and most importantly with no PvE content.

To make the claim that the fact that we have a BR is in any way indicative of how far through development the MMO should be is about as far fetched as any other claims you've made.

vmangman wrote: »

-what are you taking about when you say that Intrepid couldn’t start development before they had the money? Steven has said from the very beginning that he has the money to self fund and that the Kickstarter was merely a way to get the community involved and to expand the scope of the game.

There is a difference between having money tied up in real estate (where Steven made the bulk of his wealth) and having funds on hand to pay staff.

Yes, Steven had the money to have this game made himself if he wanted to. However, that money wasn't freed up until after he got the community involved to make sure that there was interest in his idea for a game.

Without the money being freed up, there is no development happening. I'm not sure about you, but I don't work for promises in lieu of a salary, and I wouldn't expect people at Intrepid to do so either.

Haha ok. Here we go.

If you say that the game is at best 15% developed after about 3 years that means we need another 15 years or so to reach 100% considering that the development speed will more or less stay linear. Let’s say 12 years to be generous because the first couple years were slower development. That’s insane and I once again proved how you are talking out of your bum. Not to mention that you pulled those numbers out of thin air with clearly nothing to back them up. By your pathetic math Intrepid would be done with the game by 2032 at best. Hahahahaha.

Steven said he had $30 million of his money ready to invest. You’re once again pulling information out of your bum and saying that that money wasn’t ready to be invested and it was just tied up in real state. If you want to call Steven a liar and say that he didn’t actually have the money and wasn’t willing to invest unless he saw that the Kickstarter did well then go ahead

And you didn’t even address the fact that you think DESTRUCTION IS MERELY ART. Hahaha.

Dude you’re a joke. Stop talking. It’s seriously embarrassing.

Noaani

vmangman wrote: »

If you say that the game is at best 15% developed after about 3 years that means we need another 15 years or so to reach 100% considering that the development speed will more or less stay linear.

Nope.

Virtually every MMO ramps it's staffing level up from a few people pre-development (Ashes in 2017), to a few dozen for initial development (Intrepid in 2019), up to a few hundred - when you include work contracted out to other studios - for the 12 - 18 months before release (Intrepid in 2022/2023).

If we follow your logic - that Intrepid are 3 years in to developing Ashes, and that development of an MMO is linear, then that would mean that Steven had a fully staffed studio in 2016.

If this is not an argument you are willing to make and hold to, then you have to reconsider another aspect of your argument as well - either the linear statement or the 3 years of development statement, at least one of them does not fit if you do not also then argue that Intrepid had a fully staffed studio in 2016.

Now, if Intrepid had that fully staffed studio up and running back then, why did Steven make such a big deal in 2018 about staff hires and the fact that his team was always expanding.

And lets not forget the need to move to a larger office.

Now, I'm not going to tell you which parts of your argument I think you should reconsider, I'm going to leave that to you. However, you can't logically claim that MMO development is linear and that Intrepid have been in development for 3 years when we have comments directly from Intrepid about how their staff is expanding.

vmangman wrote: »

Steven said he had $30 million of his money ready to invest.

If you have $30 million you can invest in a product, you have it invested elsewhere until that project is ready to roll.

This is one of the differences between people with $30 million and people without $30 million.

Saying it is ready to invest does not mean that it is sitting in a bank. It means that he is willing to liquidate assets that are easy to liquidate in order to fund the game.

vmangman wrote: »

And you didn’t even address the fact that you think DESTRUCTION IS MERELY ART. Hahaha.

Please explain to me what part of destruction Intrepid could show us that is not art.

Dygz

Yeah! That's what I want to know.
What counts as open development besides art and words???
A video showcasing siege destruction would still be art. I guess vmangman means is still art or concept art.

Friday's livestream focused on siege destruction and revealed that part of the delay for sieges has been the devs waiting to try to incorporate the Unreal Chaos system and finally deciding to try to code something similar themselves. Dunno how they could be more open about that.
I suppose they could remain completely silent about the progress on siege destruction development until they have an action video to demo that destruction - but that would be closer to the closed development that should be the crux of the complaint. That would be the equivalent of Nodes 3-caliber closed development.

We've been told that the delay in the Divine Nodes article is that aspects of the designs for Divine Nodes and Military Nodes have significantly changed - we don't necessarily need the details of the original designs for that to be considered open communication... though it would be nice to get that reasoning a couple of months earlier than we did.

I dunno why anyone would expect development pace to remain linear when Steven continues to increase the number of staff. Also, Agile development is modular, so it's easy to build upon more quickly upon the foundation(s).
While I do think that we should already have more races available than just Humans at this point in development, I also know that it's not going to take three years for the devs to give us Dwarves another three years for the devs to give us Orcs, another three years for the devs to give us Elves and another three years for the devs to give us Tulnar.
That's not the way Agile development works - it's not even the way Waterfall development works.

What's the major mistake of the March Creative Director's Letter??: Steven raising the expectation that there will be weekly updates of info for MMORPG development.
But, people should have known by then, and should certainly know by now, that Steven's dates should be disregarded - especially since he is the stop-gate that causes those dates to be missed. Nodes 3 is coming "Soon!"

"Our goal is to regularly provide you with updates on the progress of development through videos, articles, and art assets in a more consistent way."
---Steven Sharif

I dunno that it's true that we've been getting weekly updates on the MMORPG, but it is true that we have been getting updates on the progress of MMORPG development several times per month... it's just that the bulk of those updates are art assets for creatures, like the Dragons and the Troll, rather than articles and mechanics videos.
Everyone would love more articles and more mechanics videos, but, there have been significant delays - delays compared to Steven's original (unrealistic) estimates.
Heck - even the most recent quarterly Creative Directors Letter has been delayed/skipped.

The complaint seems to be that IS is not as transparent as they used to be, but... quite a lot of that previous transparency was dates that IS can't meet. No point in having that continue.
And I am happy to have early access to game assets, environments and gameplay features in exchange for that manner of "transparency".
We'll have to see what changes Chapter 2 of Apoc brings us (Dec 17th?) - and - how quickly we get access to play Castle Siege Mode.

Roko

Development as a whole, not just in games, is a very slow process. And some times it even requires developers to go back and rework stuff they had already worked on. like they said happened with the network architecture back in December making it even slower because it means no news until new headway is made.

What this means for us the spectators is that we have to compromise on one of two things. Either we get constant news that are all filler and no killer. Or we get incredibly slow news (some times 6 months or longer as you mentioned) with the killer stuff. we can't expect it to go both ways. it's not realistic and it doesn't mean they are not being transparent, it just means the development is just not keeping up with news cycles. so they are forced to fill it with fluff if they want to put something out.

TL:DR substance takes time, that's why we must endure 6 months or longer to get it.

Black Sword

I saw two things I liked:
1) The Trebuchet (spelling?) [from Alex]
2) And the Elder Red Dragon

TOTALLY AWESOME.

Wandering Mist

vmangman wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

Makinoji wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

Makinoji wrote: »

vmangman wrote: »

Makinoji wrote: »

Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

Idk why certain people keep reading into things that aren't there or true and spread panic but to each their own.

There’s been months of basically just art and words. Read the quotes from the last Creative Director’s Letter posted as a response above.

Steven himself said in that letter that the team “will be focused on updating you (the community) more frequently with a look into our progress on systems and designs” and that they will be “giving you (the community) greater sight into the development of the systems and mechanics that go into creating what will be the greatest MMORPG”.

The quotes above do not describe art and words. So please don’t tell me that I’m reading into things that aren’t there or that my idea just simply doesn’t align with what was shown. The quotes above are from Steven himself. So help me understand how I’m being ridiculous in my statements and expectations of more than just art and words?

These are all things they have done since the March CD letter (see below list)

Information after information. Even some snapchat updates about the development of the castle sieges.
APOC itself uses assets from the MMORPG and is being used to test the MMO combat. They are feeding us slowly but it's there in black and white and in digital to review. Again I stand by my statement from before of
Art and words are part of the development process. Just because your idea of what you wanted to see didn't align with what was shown doesn't discredit the information that was given.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Recent_media
2019-11-22 Livestream
2019-11-07 Discord lore reading and Q&A
2019-11-07 Blog: Servant of the Damned (Creation of the Cursed Charger)
2019-11-05 Newsletter
2019-11-05 Blog: Bounties of the Verdant Keeper
2019-11-02 Extra Life Livestream
2019-10-31 Livestream
2019-10-12 Newsletter
2019-10-12 Apocalypse gaming session with some lite QnA Livestream
2019-10-11 Blog: Forest of Erinthia game update
2019-10-11 Blog: Enter the Glorious Gourd Contest
2019-10-02 Blog: Shades Unseen
2019-10-02 Apocalypse QnA and Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream
2019-09-30 Blog: October Giveaway - Free Armor of the Autumn Knight
2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part II)
2019-09-30 Apocalypse Gaming Session Late Night Edition Livestream (Part I)
2019-09-27 Livestream
2019-09-27 Blog: Unlock a free Emberstorm Dragon
2019-09-24 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse early access trailer
2019-09-19 Blog: Otterly playful
2019-09-18 Blog: Ashes of Creation Apocalypse heads into early access
2019-09-04 Newsletter
2019-08-29 Livestream
2019-08-28 Blog: The Order of the Luminous Levin
2019-08-21 Video - Ashes of Creation MMORPG Teaser
2019-08-15 Dungeon Crawler Network podcast interview with creative director Steven Sharif
2019-08-14 Discord Q&A
2019-08-14 Blog: Steam Announce And Play Test FAQ For Ashes of Creation Apocalypse
2019-08-09 Blog: A Noble Steed
2019-08-06 Newsletter
2019-08-02 Blog: Account servces update and downtime on August 5
2019-07-31 Blog: The Groves of Slumbering Shade
2019-07-30 Blog: Rocky Beginnings
2019-07-26 Livestream
2019-07-16 Blog: Creative Director's Letter and Mayoral Caravan System
2019-07-02 Newsletter
2019-07-02 Blog: The Maestros of Merriment
2019-06-28 Livestream
2019-06-27 Developer Diaries: Animation
2019-06-22 Blog: A Fell Venture (Creation of the Fellbeak Macaw)
2019-06-04 Newsletter
2019-05-30 Livestream
2019-05-29 Blog: Pilgramage of the Diviner
2019-05-28 Developer Diaries: Weapon Modeling
2019-05-23 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Economic Node Type
2019-05-07 Video - Ashes of Creation Lore of the Hippogryph
2019-04-30 Developer Diaries: Building Tech
2019-04-19 Steven Sharif Interview - The Golden Feather
2019-04-17 Steven Sharif Interview - Ashes Pathfinder
2019-04-15 Steven Sharif Interview - Paradox Gaming Network
2019-04-11 Steven Sharif Interview - Dungeon Crawler Network
2019-04-10 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Scientific Node Type
2019-04-04 Newsletter
2019-04-02 Blog: The Beastmasters of Niküa Cosmetics
2019-03-27 Developer Diaries: Node Tech
2019-03-26 Blog: Know Your Nodes - Advance and Destroy
2019-03-21 GDC 2019 Creative Director Interview
2019-03-16 Blog: Know Your Nodes - The Basics
2019-03-12 Blog: 10 Facts About Castle Sieges in the MMORPG
2019-03-08 Video - Ashes of Creation Apocalypse Castle Siege Gameplay
2019-03-08 Livestream
2019-03-07 Discord Q&A
2019-03-07 Blog: Creative Director's Letter

Yes, on paper that looks like a lot of information, but most that is just fluff. Like yesterday’s livestream most what Intrepid puts out has no substance.

The Know Your Nodes blogposts were great! But unfortunately they were short lived. They’ve had some good pieces of information released, but most of it is just little crumbs that don’t actually show much development. As you can see in my quotes from the CDL, Steven said that they want to give us updates on systems and mechanics.

And you should know that no one can take your list seriously when you include paid pre-launch cosmetics in your list of updates... come on man... paid cosmetics are not development updates.

I merely pasted that list, it's not my job to curate knowledge for you. You are intelligent enough to sift through the bits, however seeing that you took my response in the way you did only further proves my point of people wanting to hear what they want to. This is where I say good day.

Yes, that list proves my point. Most of the things on that list have no substance. So how does you posting a list full of fluff prove my point, that most of Intrepid’s communication lacks substance, wrong?

I thought you were making an argument to show that Intrepid is full of valuable updates, but instead you proved my point correct by posting a list of fluff. Yes, I am intelligent enough to sift through that list and see that it’s mostly fluff and that it even includes paid cosmetics. So what are you trying to say because you’re currently helping my point?

Edit: whether you wrote the list or just copy pasted doesn’t make a difference since you ended up using it to prove a point.

I consider this a bit of a catch 22 situation for Intrepid. The community have demanded regular updates but games development is a slow process. Weekly updates aren't going to yield much new information that the community will understand. So either Intrepid keep up the regular updates that are largely "fluff", or they stay quiet until something substantial happens, which wouldn't be regular at all.

Of course, the way you write these threads comes across as you thinking that there is something malicious going on. Do you believe that either Intrepid are holding out on us with information or that they are slacking off?

The last substantial update was the last Know Your Nodes blog. That was six months ago. I explained all of this in another thread.

So yes, when in 6 months of development we’re basically only getting fluff I will call Intrepid out.

I’m just saying that they’re not being honest and someone needs to call them out. When after 6 months of development with almost no substantial update and a missed self imposed Creative Director’s Letter we get a livestream as lackluster as yesterday’s something needs to be said.

Sigh, and yet you are trying to call them out from a position of ignorance, not only of what they are doing but of how games development works in general. It is perfectly normal for a games studio to finish a lot of the artwork before anything else, as it doesn't rely on other departments to get going. In fact, it's not uncommon for artists to be drafted into other departments in order to speed things along once the majority of the artwork is completed.

sunfrog

Here you go. Here's a screen grab from the latest livestream.

Shoklen

^ Programmers life.....

Mesis

I have to agree, last livestream did not show a lot. It is quite dissapointing to see slow to no progress in development or any info about game.

I dont know what is wrong but there is definetly an issue somewhere here

Wandering Mist

Mesis wrote: »

I have to agree, last livestream did not show a lot. It is quite dissapointing to see slow to no progress in development or any info about game.

I dont know what is wrong but there is definetly an issue somewhere here

Is there? Tell me, how many video games of this scale have you been part of developing? Or even how many game development cycles have you followed this closely?

I keep seeing people say that things are going wrong at Intrepid or that development is slow and yet these same people have absolutely no clue about games development at all.

Noaani

Mesis wrote: »

I have to agree, last livestream did not show a lot. It is quite dissapointing to see slow to no progress in development or any info about game.

I dont know what is wrong but there is definetly an issue somewhere here

What exactly is it you expect Intrepid to be working on right now that could be shown?

The only things that can be worked on right now are either art assets not totally reliant on other systems, and code.

The fact that we know Ashes will have its own propriety destruction system rather than using Unreals is actually huge, I can't name ANY other game that has EVER given this much detail about the games back end systems this early in development.

Yet some people still claim it isn't open development - presumably just because rhey haven't seen the one thing they personally want to see.

unknown

This content has been removed.

VmanGman

skafftaruss wrote: »

@vmangman. Don't worry. It's hilarious that white knights seem to answer a question with a question. Answering simple questions are too hard for gaming politicians. I want this game to be a smash hit as well. Let's see. Cheers!

My man.

Wandering Mist

skafftaruss wrote: »

@vmangman. Don't worry. It's hilarious that white knights seem to answer a question with a question. Answering simple questions are too hard for gaming politicians. I want this game to be a smash hit as well. Let's see. Cheers!

Questioning someone's ignorant ramblings is "white knighting" now? Also, if you read the OP you'll find there isn't a question of any kind in there, just your average internet whining. What "simple questions" are we supposed to have answered?

Noaani

skafftaruss wrote: »

@vmangman. Don't worry. It's hilarious that white knights seem to answer a question with a question. Answering simple questions are too hard for gaming politicians. I want this game to be a smash hit as well. Let's see. Cheers!

People aren't answering a question with a question, they are trying to ascertain context on the original question in order to properly answer it.

This is usually only needed if the original question was poorly framed. If someone seems to think people often answer their questions with another question rather than answering said question, chances are, that person needs to add more appropriate context in order to adequately frame the situation when asking questions.

sunfrog

I think they would like to see something like this with things crossed off as they are completed.

Child Item