If I did see correctly, I read that some of you think that binding many keys for a "proper" use of the tab targeting is some sort of unintuitive, overkill way of playing an MMO. Well I agree with you on the unituitive part, but the point of it is to make it intuitive. When we use only the basics of tab targeting, it's completely braindead and has a lot of problems in terms of speed to interact and many other things. That is why we need to set some parameters and more keys to make it efficient, with the other goal in mind of properly configuring it by finding a balance with usefulness and a lot of options to work with. If there is too much, of course it will be shity, it requires time to get a grip on it. It's like adding another layer of mechanics to an MMO, contrary to an action MMO with soft targeting where you "aim" at your target. But when you master it, it's like piano, it becomes natural and will be just as fast as playing an action MMO, but with the tab targeting advantages.
I do agree that the tab targeting has its limitations, just like soft targeting. In the end it all comes down to a matter of tastes and what you master as a player. But the way the tab targeting is seen, is for the most part blinded by the vision of the "dynamism, engagement" or whatever it is of the soft targeting from action MMOs. Some of the tab MMOs are slow not because of the tab targeting system, but the way the game itself is made. If we take a look at some asians god-tier player from starcraft, even though it's a totally different game, take a look at how they manage so much shortcuts with little time, their APM is insane, and when I play those games, it feels boring asf, not because of the game, but because me as a user can't fully use the potential of the game. I don't see why using like 10 or more keys for the tab targeting in an MMO will make those keys useless, just because they can sometimes be used in very specific situations by the way, we are just making sure to be ready in the most possible scenarios.
Based on my experiences, some of the action MMOs I played are even slower than tab ones because using and hitting with a skill lock your camera on your target and your character during the animation. (it’s just an example out of many, I agree gamedesign wise some skills need to lock you, but that's not the point here) This is only slowing the game, if most of the movement is free while being “auto-aim”, this is where a game can shine by both mechanics and dynamism.
One dimension of the MMOs rarely correctly used is the movement, not the atk.speed, not some well made animations, simply the move speed of your character. And most of the dynamism from MMOs originate from it in my opinion. And I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs. When the movement itself is a mechanic, and you need to master it, paired up with what's make a deep gameplay it becomes the ultimate combination. (that only tab targeting can provide).
Of course, that is only my opinion and by definition is not necessarily true, but I can provide some material if you want to. I guess showing you would be better than words.
Wow, great responses. Just figured I make a New Year's topic.
You all have enlightened me as to what the "hybrid" system is going to be I assume...a clunky-ass box of rocks! HAH!
No, kidding aside and skipping the rebuttle. I have complete faith in the man upstairs to make the right choice.
As for my two cents, I just wanna play the damn game!
People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.
Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.
If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.
You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
I agree with the bulk of your post, but not this part - which is a weird thing as it is a factually correct statement.
The reason I disagree is because even though it is technically correct, it isn't a point worth making.
A develop could take an action combat game and replace the targeting system with a tab one. Thing is, if that action combat was designed to be fun an engaging, when it is moved to tab it will not be as fun and engaging.
The reason people like tab target games isn't because the targeting is easier, it is because the fun and engagement of the combat system is moved from targeting to other factors.
So while your above statement is technically true, it is not taking in to account the fact that every player and every developer understands that tab target combat requires other factors of combat to be highlighted in order to make it work.
This quote about how tab is more tactical and my point was all those things related to your class/abilities you find fun/engaging/tactical in a tab system can also exist in a free aim systems. Tab and aiming are just delivery systems for your skills. As you said, you prefer not worry about aiming and focus on your class/abilities as well as other aspects of combat (my words but i assume this is the case) and that's cool. My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
This quote about how tab is more tactical and my point was all those things related to your class/abilities you find fun/engaging/tactical in a tab system can also exist in a free aim systems. Tab and aiming are just delivery systems for your skills. As you said, you prefer not worry about aiming and focus on your class/abilities as well as other aspects of combat (my words but i assume this is the case) and that's cool. My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
Fully agreed. People here keep thinking of 'action MMOs' they've played (although minority, even on the forums where generally old school gamers dwell) and go like ''tab target has more depth'', ''I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs.''. What they don't seem to get is that there has never been a truly action based MMORPG. It's either soft targeting or the AoE spam that is BDO (even those games with all their deficiencies, succeeded in drawing people from games with tab target).
As mentioned multiple times and recently by @mcstackerson , tab targeting essentially is having the necessity of a target being selected in order to use your abilities - It's simply a method that bypasses aiming. Anything you do in tab target games, you can technically do in action ones. Not only this is a fact but also what Steven considers ''tab targeting''.
''Action'' would be any ability that does not require a target to be used (again, by the definition of Steven). This includes AoEs and placeable abilities, teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based.
Therefore, when Intrepid says that they will have a ''hybrid combat'' system, it's really not confusing or hard to understand at all. You will choose how much action or tab abilities you want in your action bar (up tp 75% on either one) and your choices will have consequences - just like anything you'll do in this game, so choose wisely. Hybrid combat is by no means something ground breaking or extremely innovative. We have many example of such games already such as Guild Wars 2 (only lacking the manual third person aiming of APOC). I know you were joking @perseus01 but still, rest assured, it won't be ''clunky-ass box of rocks 👀''. The tab target enthusiasts are having trouble to understand how merging of action combat will happen but that is perhaps the result of miscommunication or lack thereof.
Point being, don't let your biases cloud your judgement about anything - think and learn for yourselves and try not to relate to your past experiences of ''tab target'' or ''action combat'' MMORPGs because those definitions and the gameplay attached to them, are not relevant for Ashes of Creation. You may use the definitions of both system I mentioned above (both confirmed by Steven) to have a better understanding of the hybrid combat we will have in the MMORPG.
I read you Magic Man. I'm not going to quote you because currently I am reading through a ~6×3 screen. I just want to clarify that I do represent the older generation and the newer of gamers. I can recall playing a game as being mentioned of tab targeting while also "soft-targeting" the enemy. Final Fantasy being one of the first, except its turn-based as far as utilizing the system goes. I can remember a MMO, maybe 2 where I can't ever f***ing click the target. Thats where I see the "Hybrid" name coming in and fixing that sort of situation utilizing the tab-target system. I would also assume, as someone has already mentioned, seeing the soft-target utilization commanding 2 targets at once, which I think would really be great for healers, as well.
With all the abilities that are going to be utilized, I would assume IS would have no other choice.
My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
Again, this isn't about *can*.
In order for your specific point here to be valid as an option for a developer to peruse (rather than just something that is technically possible), you have to believe that one of the two following statements are not true.
1, developers are able to take any combat system and flesh it out to a point where it is too much for players.
2, In order to combat #1, developers pick a target difficulty/engagement level to aim for.
Now, if you believe one or both of the above are not true, all you need to reply with is exactly which of these two facts you do not believe is true, and your reasoning as to why you believe this. You need not read the rest of this post unless you agree with the above two statements.
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Now, assuming you agree with the above two points, you then have to look at things from a developers perspective.
If you have a functional tab target game that meets your target level of difficulty/engagement, and you then add free aiming to that system, you are now overshooting your target.
On the other hand, if you have a free target system that meets your target level of difficulty/engagement and decide to make it a tab game, it will now undershoot your target.
Even as someone that is all about tab target games, I don't dispute the above.
The point I'm making is that no developer making a game worth playing would just add or remove a system that increases or decreases the target level of difficulty/engagement without then reassessing that level to make sure it is still met.
Therefore, if developers take a tab target system and make it free aim, one of two things must be true:
Either that system was under performing in terms of target level of difficulty/engagement; or some other system was removed in order to make space within that target level of difficulty/engagement for free aiming to also exist.
The same applies if developers take a free aim system and alter it to tab targeting - either the free aim system was too much for players, or they would have had to add another layer to combat to bring it back to the target level of difficulty/engagement.
This is why - while your statement was technically true - it is not worth making as an argument as it is not something that any developer making a game worth playing would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
Now, of course, literally none of the above applies to shit game developers (looking at you, XL and Blizzard).
People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.
Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.
If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.
You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
I literally never got attacked in all the time I played BDO, so I don't consider it a game worth bringing up in a discussion about players being in a heightened state.
Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).
When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.
It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.
Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.
Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.
So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).
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NodoffMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For me, it's simple... I LOATHE tab targeting MMOs, and want nothing to do with that style of combat. BDO has my favorite style of combat in an mmo to date, followed by Tera.
That's quite a strong opinion you have there @Nodoff . What don't you like about tab targeting combat systems?
They are clunky/clumsy and they significantly lower the combat skill ceiling (auto aim), while being much less engaging.
Fully agreed. People here keep thinking of 'action MMOs' they've played (although minority, even on the forums where generally old school gamers dwell) and go like ''tab target has more depth'', ''I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs.''. What they don't seem to get is that there has never been a truly action based MMORPG. It's either soft targeting or the AoE spam that is BDO (even those games with all their deficiencies, succeeded in drawing people from games with tab target).
Well, If I remember correctly C9 is a perfect example of a "truly action based MMORPG" when I played it, there was no tab targeting & soft targeting. If someone can confirm.
While it is true that older games (tab ones) are a lot less popular than before, compared to action MMOs, I think the attractiveness comes from the novelty of the game more than the system used. About the part of dynamism from tab targeting, I think only of one game Aion played by very good players. Honestly if we compare the amount of dynamism tab MMOs and Action MMOs gives. The proportion is far superior for the action MMOs. Since obviously 80% of the tab ones have a slow asf pace, it's quite obvious. The idea I wanted to share was if there is a good recipe. The tab targeting have more potential in term of dynamism than action MMOs we have now.
As mentioned multiple times and recently by @mcstackerson , tab targeting essentially is having the necessity of a target being selected in order to use your abilities - It's simply a method that bypasses aiming. Anything you do in tab target games, you can technically do in action ones. Not only this is a fact but also what Steven considers ''tab targeting''.
''Action'' would be any ability that does not require a target to be used (again, by the definition of Steven). This includes AoEs and placeable abilities, teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based.
Therefore, when Intrepid says that they will have a ''hybrid combat'' system, it's really not confusing or hard to understand at all. You will choose how much action or tab abilities you want in your action bar (up tp 75% on either one) and your choices will have consequences - just like anything you'll do in this game, so choose wisely. Hybrid combat is by no means something ground breaking or extremely innovative. We have many example of such games already such as Guild Wars 2 (only lacking the manual third person aiming of APOC). I know you were joking @perseus01 but still, rest assured, it won't be ''clunky-ass box of rocks 👀''. The tab target enthusiasts are having trouble to understand how merging of action combat will happen but that is perhaps the result of miscommunication or lack thereof.
Point being, don't let your biases cloud your judgement about anything - think and learn for yourselves and try not to relate to your past experiences of ''tab target'' or ''action combat'' MMORPGs because those definitions and the gameplay attached to them, are not relevant for Ashes of Creation. You may use the definitions of both system I mentioned above (both confirmed by Steven) to have a better understanding of the hybrid combat we will have in the MMORPG.
Referring to this I guess Aion is a very good example of this hybrid system (at least in my mind) since the classes works by having non-tab targeting abilities. Well, those abilities are very simple in the way they are not tab, but they work more or less like this :"... teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based." Tho' there is no manual aiming (bow for exemple).
I wonder how really AOC's hybrid system will be, I read somewhere that it the tab/soft targeting switch depends (sometimes) on the augment. I think that the castle siege will bring a lot of answers regarding this.
What I hope is if we are really setting "action skills" that we will be free of our movements, at least with the camera.
When I tried Bless Online on re-release, some classes were locked in their movements and it was horrible to play with. (**** this game).
If someone has a clear idea on how it will work, I would like to hear it. Or if there is already a topic regarding the hybrid system, I failed to find it.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.
Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.
If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.
You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
I literally never got attacked in all the time I played BDO, so I don't consider it a game worth bringing up in a discussion about players being in a heightened state.
Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).
When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.
It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.
Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.
Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.
So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).
But it kind of is about *can*. It's about certain aspects not being unique to tab.
You could most definitely make a combat system that is too much for players and you could layer aiming on top of it but that is beside the point. I don't think any traditional combat system comes close to being that hard and to make one that difficult, it would have to become extremely abstract, to the point it would not look anything like a traditional combat system.
Maybe it would help if we got an example. Please tell me the name of a tab game that you think would be too difficult to play in a free aim system. Lets assume any skills with a travel time are projectiles and instant abilities are raycast/hitscan. If you can't think of one, maybe you could make one up or make change a game you know?
You are trying to make an argument that they might exceed some difficulty cap they set for themselves.
First, that still doesn't change the fact you can make it free aim. Just because it becomes more difficult then planned doesn't mean you can't do it. It also doesn't mean people can't play it because it's more difficult then planned.
Second, the difficulty isn't just defined by the character controls/abilities. it's the character controls/abilities against whatever you have to fight in the game. In some games, equipment is also a deciding factor on how hard the game is. Playing an rpg naked is usually harder then playing it fully geared in the best stuff.
Third, if you really need to get back to your arbitrary difficulty cap, you can do something similar to what they are doing with the hybrid system and alter skills to make them more rewarding to land (i.e. more damage, healing).
I think the bottom line is that no combat system gets anywhere near that hard and if it did, it still could have aiming layered on top.
People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
I was using twitch as an example of where you can see people playing these games for long periods of time but they are not the only ones. There are plenty of people, who play games that require aiming for hours. Downtime is very minimal as match making usually does a good job of getting you back in games but i think that's beside the point.
Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.
If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.
You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
I literally never got attacked in all the time I played BDO, so I don't consider it a game worth bringing up in a discussion about players being in a heightened state.
Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).
When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.
It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.
Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.
Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.
So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).
Everything you are saying seems to point to the environment being the stresser and not the fact it requires aiming. Just because you didn't get attacked in BDO doesn't mean you couldn't be which is similar to ashes. Just because you can be attacked in ashes doesn't mean you will be.
I'm willing to agree to disagree but I think BDO fits the bill. I'm not sure how it is now but you used to be attacked relatively frequently for grinding spots, it didn't stop me from grind for whole weekends. I also didn't spend the whole time in constant fear of being attacked even though i could lose 30+ minutes if someone got me. If anything, I got in a flow and zoned out most of the time. Most importantly, the fact it required aiming didn't contribute to any stress.
You are correct though, we will see how it is when the game launches.
But it kind of is about *can*. It's about certain aspects not being unique to tab.
Oh, there is nothing in a tab system that can't be in another system, absolutely.
However, assuming you are aiming for a total system engagement point count of 10, and free aiming takes up 4 of those 10 engagement points, that means you only have 6 points left to add.
Tab targeting takes up 0 points, so you can add 10 points in other areas.
That is what a tab target system is. It is putting the focus of combat in areas other than targeting.
An example of a tab target game that pushes things to the limit of what players are able to maintain would be EQ2. Any tab target game with under 15 abilities could be easily altered to be free aiming (my disdain for such games is laid out on these forums). It's when you start to get up to 30 abilities or more, and where there is no possibility of a rotation and even a spell priority system can't account for all possibilities that taking a tab target game and making it free aiming simply wouldn't be feasible without dumbing down that tab target sytem.
Everything you are saying seems to point to the environment being the stresser and not the fact it requires aiming.
The environment is a factor, but it is the level of focus needed leading in to actual combat in an action combat game over a tab combat game.
The ready state you need to be in to begin combat when all you need to do is press tab and then press 1 is somewhat lower than the ready state you need to be in when in order to begin combat you need to target a moving character (or even target near a moving character).
It is as much about anticipation anxiety as it is anything else.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targeting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc).
Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple boss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD
Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargeting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%.
Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targeting in my opinion.
My main in NWO was a healer. Aimed healing was fun - challenging and engaging because healers have to deal some damage in order to replenish healing mana. Which means turning focus from tracking players who need healing to find enough victims and then re-locating where patients are. Sometimes pets or other players might run into the path of the aim and block the heal for the intended target. But, AOEs help mitigate that issue.
In Ashes, the hybrid combat means that players can choose which they prefer. Augments will also help with that. If I felt I sucked at aimed healing, I would do 75 tab/25 action. For action, I would have as many AOEs as possible and I would attempt to add AOE healing augments to action abilities if that's available.
I don't understand why "fatigue" is an issue for a hybrid system, but I, too, commonly played NWO for 12-18 hours per day several times per week without feeling "fatigue".
Only anticipation I felt was having more fun with the action combat of NWO than with tab-target. I didn't have to be in a "state" to want to play either type of combat. I just have more fun with action than I do with tab-target.
Comments
I do agree that the tab targeting has its limitations, just like soft targeting. In the end it all comes down to a matter of tastes and what you master as a player. But the way the tab targeting is seen, is for the most part blinded by the vision of the "dynamism, engagement" or whatever it is of the soft targeting from action MMOs. Some of the tab MMOs are slow not because of the tab targeting system, but the way the game itself is made. If we take a look at some asians god-tier player from starcraft, even though it's a totally different game, take a look at how they manage so much shortcuts with little time, their APM is insane, and when I play those games, it feels boring asf, not because of the game, but because me as a user can't fully use the potential of the game. I don't see why using like 10 or more keys for the tab targeting in an MMO will make those keys useless, just because they can sometimes be used in very specific situations by the way, we are just making sure to be ready in the most possible scenarios.
Based on my experiences, some of the action MMOs I played are even slower than tab ones because using and hitting with a skill lock your camera on your target and your character during the animation. (it’s just an example out of many, I agree gamedesign wise some skills need to lock you, but that's not the point here) This is only slowing the game, if most of the movement is free while being “auto-aim”, this is where a game can shine by both mechanics and dynamism.
One dimension of the MMOs rarely correctly used is the movement, not the atk.speed, not some well made animations, simply the move speed of your character. And most of the dynamism from MMOs originate from it in my opinion. And I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs. When the movement itself is a mechanic, and you need to master it, paired up with what's make a deep gameplay it becomes the ultimate combination. (that only tab targeting can provide).
Of course, that is only my opinion and by definition is not necessarily true, but I can provide some material if you want to. I guess showing you would be better than words.
You all have enlightened me as to what the "hybrid" system is going to be I assume...a clunky-ass box of rocks! HAH!
No, kidding aside and skipping the rebuttle. I have complete faith in the man upstairs to make the right choice.
As for my two cents, I just wanna play the damn game!
That is something we all can agree on i imagine xD
Yes, you will want to be on alert when in the open world in ashes but it's not because of aiming, it's because you can be attacked at any time and there is a death penalty.
If you want other proof, that stress comes from gameplay as apposed to if it requires aiming, look at wow or any other MMO. If you played the game for any length of time, you would probably notice it's extremely easy for you to level for long periods of time but after doing a hard raid that took a lot out of you, you might have wanted a break. Same thing if you participate in ranked arena or RPGs. You are risking your rating every time you play a match and after a very tense match, you might want to wind down because of how stressful the match was.
You can be attacked at any time in Black desert, a open world pvp mmo that requires aiming, does that mean people can't grind for hours because it's too stressful?
This quote about how tab is more tactical and my point was all those things related to your class/abilities you find fun/engaging/tactical in a tab system can also exist in a free aim systems. Tab and aiming are just delivery systems for your skills. As you said, you prefer not worry about aiming and focus on your class/abilities as well as other aspects of combat (my words but i assume this is the case) and that's cool. My point is that you can have the same depth in class and ability systems in a free aim system. The difference is you have aiming layered on top.
Fully agreed. People here keep thinking of 'action MMOs' they've played (although minority, even on the forums where generally old school gamers dwell) and go like ''tab target has more depth'', ''I think the tab-targeting permits us more dynamism than you can ever find in other action MMOs.''. What they don't seem to get is that there has never been a truly action based MMORPG. It's either soft targeting or the AoE spam that is BDO (even those games with all their deficiencies, succeeded in drawing people from games with tab target).
As mentioned multiple times and recently by @mcstackerson , tab targeting essentially is having the necessity of a target being selected in order to use your abilities - It's simply a method that bypasses aiming. Anything you do in tab target games, you can technically do in action ones. Not only this is a fact but also what Steven considers ''tab targeting''.
''Action'' would be any ability that does not require a target to be used (again, by the definition of Steven). This includes AoEs and placeable abilities, teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based.
Therefore, when Intrepid says that they will have a ''hybrid combat'' system, it's really not confusing or hard to understand at all. You will choose how much action or tab abilities you want in your action bar (up tp 75% on either one) and your choices will have consequences - just like anything you'll do in this game, so choose wisely. Hybrid combat is by no means something ground breaking or extremely innovative. We have many example of such games already such as Guild Wars 2 (only lacking the manual third person aiming of APOC). I know you were joking @perseus01 but still, rest assured, it won't be ''clunky-ass box of rocks 👀''. The tab target enthusiasts are having trouble to understand how merging of action combat will happen but that is perhaps the result of miscommunication or lack thereof.
Point being, don't let your biases cloud your judgement about anything - think and learn for yourselves and try not to relate to your past experiences of ''tab target'' or ''action combat'' MMORPGs because those definitions and the gameplay attached to them, are not relevant for Ashes of Creation. You may use the definitions of both system I mentioned above (both confirmed by Steven) to have a better understanding of the hybrid combat we will have in the MMORPG.
With all the abilities that are going to be utilized, I would assume IS would have no other choice.
In order for your specific point here to be valid as an option for a developer to peruse (rather than just something that is technically possible), you have to believe that one of the two following statements are not true.
1, developers are able to take any combat system and flesh it out to a point where it is too much for players.
2, In order to combat #1, developers pick a target difficulty/engagement level to aim for.
Now, if you believe one or both of the above are not true, all you need to reply with is exactly which of these two facts you do not believe is true, and your reasoning as to why you believe this. You need not read the rest of this post unless you agree with the above two statements.
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Now, assuming you agree with the above two points, you then have to look at things from a developers perspective.
If you have a functional tab target game that meets your target level of difficulty/engagement, and you then add free aiming to that system, you are now overshooting your target.
On the other hand, if you have a free target system that meets your target level of difficulty/engagement and decide to make it a tab game, it will now undershoot your target.
Even as someone that is all about tab target games, I don't dispute the above.
The point I'm making is that no developer making a game worth playing would just add or remove a system that increases or decreases the target level of difficulty/engagement without then reassessing that level to make sure it is still met.
Therefore, if developers take a tab target system and make it free aim, one of two things must be true:
Either that system was under performing in terms of target level of difficulty/engagement; or some other system was removed in order to make space within that target level of difficulty/engagement for free aiming to also exist.
The same applies if developers take a free aim system and alter it to tab targeting - either the free aim system was too much for players, or they would have had to add another layer to combat to bring it back to the target level of difficulty/engagement.
This is why - while your statement was technically true - it is not worth making as an argument as it is not something that any developer making a game worth playing would ever do without extenuating circumstances.
Now, of course, literally none of the above applies to shit game developers (looking at you, XL and Blizzard).
Any game that involves match making also doesn't apply, as I have already said. While some players may play the game for hours, the simple fact that they have a break between matches is all that it takes to ease the stress (and I use the term stress lightly).
When you are on alert like that, it only takes a minute or two away from it to break things up and provide the player with some respite. Additionally, the time between matches gives players an opportunity to step away from the computer for what ever reason they may need to without issue of worry - something Ashes players out in the open have no way of achieving that we know of.
It's all well and good you saying that you don't think it will be an issue. I do. We have different opinions and that's cool.
Thing is, there is no way either of us can see who is right and who is wrong, as no game developer has made a game where it is possible to put yourself in that position, for that long and with action combat. I could use the fact that no games that make this possible exist as a form of proof that I am right - but absence of evidence is not evidence.
Even Ashes beta won't provide a suitable environment to test this, as it is as reliant on other players as much as any other factor, and most players don't play how they normally would during a beta.
So we have to wait until a while after launch in order to see if this does become an issue. To me, this in itself is an issue - even if the issue as I see it doesn't play out how I think it will (problem noticed 4 - 6 months after launch, developers recognize and admit it less than 9 months after launch, 12 - 15 months after launch combat has a it's first major revamp/rebalance that reduces the action aspects of action combat by a small amount, but across the board).
They are clunky/clumsy and they significantly lower the combat skill ceiling (auto aim), while being much less engaging.
Well, If I remember correctly C9 is a perfect example of a "truly action based MMORPG" when I played it, there was no tab targeting & soft targeting. If someone can confirm.
While it is true that older games (tab ones) are a lot less popular than before, compared to action MMOs, I think the attractiveness comes from the novelty of the game more than the system used. About the part of dynamism from tab targeting, I think only of one game Aion played by very good players. Honestly if we compare the amount of dynamism tab MMOs and Action MMOs gives. The proportion is far superior for the action MMOs. Since obviously 80% of the tab ones have a slow asf pace, it's quite obvious. The idea I wanted to share was if there is a good recipe. The tab targeting have more potential in term of dynamism than action MMOs we have now.
Referring to this I guess Aion is a very good example of this hybrid system (at least in my mind) since the classes works by having non-tab targeting abilities. Well, those abilities are very simple in the way they are not tab, but they work more or less like this :"... teleporting/blinking in a direction as well as manual aiming you see in APOC - literally everything that isn't target based." Tho' there is no manual aiming (bow for exemple).
I wonder how really AOC's hybrid system will be, I read somewhere that it the tab/soft targeting switch depends (sometimes) on the augment. I think that the castle siege will bring a lot of answers regarding this.
What I hope is if we are really setting "action skills" that we will be free of our movements, at least with the camera.
When I tried Bless Online on re-release, some classes were locked in their movements and it was horrible to play with. (**** this game).
If someone has a clear idea on how it will work, I would like to hear it. Or if there is already a topic regarding the hybrid system, I failed to find it.
But it kind of is about *can*. It's about certain aspects not being unique to tab.
You could most definitely make a combat system that is too much for players and you could layer aiming on top of it but that is beside the point. I don't think any traditional combat system comes close to being that hard and to make one that difficult, it would have to become extremely abstract, to the point it would not look anything like a traditional combat system.
Maybe it would help if we got an example. Please tell me the name of a tab game that you think would be too difficult to play in a free aim system. Lets assume any skills with a travel time are projectiles and instant abilities are raycast/hitscan. If you can't think of one, maybe you could make one up or make change a game you know?
You are trying to make an argument that they might exceed some difficulty cap they set for themselves.
First, that still doesn't change the fact you can make it free aim. Just because it becomes more difficult then planned doesn't mean you can't do it. It also doesn't mean people can't play it because it's more difficult then planned.
Second, the difficulty isn't just defined by the character controls/abilities. it's the character controls/abilities against whatever you have to fight in the game. In some games, equipment is also a deciding factor on how hard the game is. Playing an rpg naked is usually harder then playing it fully geared in the best stuff.
Third, if you really need to get back to your arbitrary difficulty cap, you can do something similar to what they are doing with the hybrid system and alter skills to make them more rewarding to land (i.e. more damage, healing).
I think the bottom line is that no combat system gets anywhere near that hard and if it did, it still could have aiming layered on top.
Everything you are saying seems to point to the environment being the stresser and not the fact it requires aiming. Just because you didn't get attacked in BDO doesn't mean you couldn't be which is similar to ashes. Just because you can be attacked in ashes doesn't mean you will be.
I'm willing to agree to disagree but I think BDO fits the bill. I'm not sure how it is now but you used to be attacked relatively frequently for grinding spots, it didn't stop me from grind for whole weekends. I also didn't spend the whole time in constant fear of being attacked even though i could lose 30+ minutes if someone got me. If anything, I got in a flow and zoned out most of the time. Most importantly, the fact it required aiming didn't contribute to any stress.
You are correct though, we will see how it is when the game launches.
However, assuming you are aiming for a total system engagement point count of 10, and free aiming takes up 4 of those 10 engagement points, that means you only have 6 points left to add.
Tab targeting takes up 0 points, so you can add 10 points in other areas.
That is what a tab target system is. It is putting the focus of combat in areas other than targeting.
An example of a tab target game that pushes things to the limit of what players are able to maintain would be EQ2. Any tab target game with under 15 abilities could be easily altered to be free aiming (my disdain for such games is laid out on these forums). It's when you start to get up to 30 abilities or more, and where there is no possibility of a rotation and even a spell priority system can't account for all possibilities that taking a tab target game and making it free aiming simply wouldn't be feasible without dumbing down that tab target sytem.
The environment is a factor, but it is the level of focus needed leading in to actual combat in an action combat game over a tab combat game.
The ready state you need to be in to begin combat when all you need to do is press tab and then press 1 is somewhat lower than the ready state you need to be in when in order to begin combat you need to target a moving character (or even target near a moving character).
It is as much about anticipation anxiety as it is anything else.
In Ashes, the hybrid combat means that players can choose which they prefer. Augments will also help with that. If I felt I sucked at aimed healing, I would do 75 tab/25 action. For action, I would have as many AOEs as possible and I would attempt to add AOE healing augments to action abilities if that's available.
I don't understand why "fatigue" is an issue for a hybrid system, but I, too, commonly played NWO for 12-18 hours per day several times per week without feeling "fatigue".
Only anticipation I felt was having more fun with the action combat of NWO than with tab-target. I didn't have to be in a "state" to want to play either type of combat. I just have more fun with action than I do with tab-target.