by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first.
Number of key presses is probably the stupids metric for deciding what is a better or worse game system I've ever seen.
By that logic, Die Hard (with Bruce Willis) is the best game out there, as it requires no key presses at all.
Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up.
If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference.
Based on that, tab targeting is better.
Setting up tab targeting requires an unruly amount of keybinds. Target closest enemy, target target of my target, target farthest enemy, target closest ally, target farthest ally, target lowest health ally, target enemy targeting me, cycle closest -> farthest, cycle farthest -> closest, etc etc, there could be literally dozens, while a soft lock system lets you use your own eyes and brain to follow target selection and prioritize on your own.
A player that knows what they are doing will have all of their targeting options set up with variations of tab and tilde keys (and Esc in some games that allow for it), along with alt, ctrl and shift modifiers, and they will have different profiles set up for different roles they are playing in the group or raid.
I can't imagine having the confidence to claim it doesn't take an excess of keybinds to have all your targeting options set up, and then immediately say it takes multiple sets of 2+ key combos to set up all your targeting options
Tab targeting systems almost always have more depth than most players realize - and I am only talking about the targeting aspect.
If you set this up in a way that makes sense to you as a player and that fits the role of your character, it is FAR more useful than manually targeting could ever be.
On the other hand, if you do nothing at all to set it up and leave it to where tab targets the nearest enemy and then continual presses target the next further away enemy, what you end up with if mobs are on the move is an unintuitive and unresponsive mess of a target system - but that is the fault of the player, not the game.
Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up.
If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference.
Based on that, tab targeting is better.
lol 😂
Noaani, as usual, defending tab targeting with silly arguments. It's like he has some sort of tab target fetish.
1 - 'Tab target is ''far superior'' only if players set it up'. Right, that applies to anything you do in games...If the player sets it up for his/her play style, it'll be ''far superior''.
2 - 'Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area'. Uhm, not really and not the point. Soft targeting was used as an example for 'locking' i.e the tab side of combat with 'action stance'. Not casual tab target locking which you will have anyway as a tab lover.
3 - 'A player that knows what they are doing will have all of their targeting options set up'...Right, so again, the player needs to set up their targeting options because the game is incapable of providing a system that fits all classes and play styles.
Tbh it just seems like you are coming with excuses for a decades old system because you are scared of change and want things to stay same.
You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous?
It seems like it was important enough for you to repeatedly go back to it. In fact you based the strength of your argument on it, since my misreading of one decimal point was your only retort twice. Now that you admit you made it all up you’re trying to backpedal furiously. You’re even trying to pretend that I was the one who initially focused on it even though clearly you did. You can’t even keep track of what you’re saying in this thread, let alone put together a cohesive argument.
“I like it more” is not an objective statement, no matter how hard you pretend otherwise. Give it up.
by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first.
Number of key presses is probably the stupids metric for deciding what is a better or worse game system I've ever seen.
By that logic, Die Hard (with Bruce Willis) is the best game out there, as it requires no key presses at all.
Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up.
If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference.
Based on that, tab targeting is better.
Setting up tab targeting requires an unruly amount of keybinds. Target closest enemy, target target of my target, target farthest enemy, target closest ally, target farthest ally, target lowest health ally, target enemy targeting me, cycle closest -> farthest, cycle farthest -> closest, etc etc, there could be literally dozens, while a soft lock system lets you use your own eyes and brain to follow target selection and prioritize on your own.
A player that knows what they are doing will have all of their targeting options set up with variations of tab and tilde keys (and Esc in some games that allow for it), along with alt, ctrl and shift modifiers, and they will have different profiles set up for different roles they are playing in the group or raid.
I can't imagine having the confidence to claim it doesn't take an excess of keybinds to have all your targeting options set up, and then immediately say it takes multiple sets of 2+ key combos to set up all your targeting options
by simple virtue of being required to press more keys to achieve the same result as another player who doesn't have to hard lock onto their target first.
Number of key presses is probably the stupids metric for deciding what is a better or worse game system I've ever seen.
By that logic, Die Hard (with Bruce Willis) is the best game out there, as it requires no key presses at all.
Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area. Tab targeting is far superior in these situations, but ONLY if the player sets it up. Players that complain about tab targeting are players that have not set it up.
If there are not multiple targets in the area, the targeting system used makes no meaningful difference.
Based on that, tab targeting is better.
Setting up tab targeting requires an unruly amount of keybinds. Target closest enemy, target target of my target, target farthest enemy, target closest ally, target farthest ally, target lowest health ally, target enemy targeting me, cycle closest -> farthest, cycle farthest -> closest, etc etc, there could be literally dozens, while a soft lock system lets you use your own eyes and brain to follow target selection and prioritize on your own.
A player that knows what they are doing will have all of their targeting options set up with variations of tab and tilde keys (and Esc in some games that allow for it), along with alt, ctrl and shift modifiers, and they will have different profiles set up for different roles they are playing in the group or raid.
I can't imagine having the confidence to claim it doesn't take an excess of keybinds to have all your targeting options set up, and then immediately say it takes multiple sets of 2+ key combos to set up all your targeting options
With the exception of WoW and it's clones, that is what MMO's have been about since the 90's.
Game developers give players far more options than they would need, and players decide which of those options they want, and then work out how to make that fit with the resources they have on hand (keyboard and moue), and set it up to work for them as an individual.
This is why mice and keyboards that are marketed at MMO players have more programmable buttons than similar items marketed at any other segment.
In the context of an MMO player that has specifically set over 150 keybinds for their character, I'm quite confident in being able to state categorically that 12 total keybinds for targeting options isn't excessive.
You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous?
It seems like it was important enough for you to repeatedly go back to it. In fact you based the strength of your argument on it, since my misreading of one decimal point was your only retort twice. Now that you admit you made it all up you’re trying to backpedal furiously. You’re even trying to pretend that I was the one who initially focused on it even though clearly you did. You can’t even keep track of what you’re saying in this thread, let alone put together a cohesive argument.
“I like it more” is not an objective statement, no matter how hard you pretend otherwise. Give it up.
Lmao, you were the first person who dedicated an entire comment to it, in which you didn’t even read it correctly. And I’ll tell you again, if you wanna get clever, maybe actually make sure you’re not wrong first.
Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.
Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.
You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability.
Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.
If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes.
I’ve never said anything remotely like “I like it more” and decided that’s an indicator of superiority. I did say action combat takes objectively less time, which is true because it doesn’t require button pressing to be allowed to use abilities. It also allows for at-will target changes, which it does because you’re not required to tab onto the next target when you can just look at it. It does not auto lock and make you incapable of missing, which is the biggest point in tab’s favor, but which shouldn’t really exist in a PvX game anyway but at least it won’t be including crowd control.
Tab is an outdated system. It’s not quicker, it’s a hand holding lock on, and if you’re healing you’ll end playing whack a mole on the group healthbars widget instead of watching your group in the fight.
Right, so again, the player needs to set up their targeting options because the game is incapable of providing a system that fits all classes and play styles.
This is 100% correct.
There are several dozen targeting options that are available in most games. Some are so obscure they are only available via actual text command (usually /[command] typed in the chat box).
Now, with that many options, if the game tried to bind them all for everyone, it would be a nightmare to remember the ones you wanted, and people with standard keyboards and mice would likely have to be fingr contortionists to get to the specific target keybind they want.
So instad, developers put the options in the game and leave it up to players to bind the options they want at the time to the keys they want them bound to.
The argument here isn't so much about "this is how it's always been, why change it", so much as there are a number of people arguing for change whom have quite clearly never actually played a tab target game in the manner it was intended to be played.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The argument here isn't so much about "this is how it's always been, why change it", so much as there are a number of people arguing for change whom have quite clearly never actually played a tab target game in the manner it was intended to be played.
I'm the opposite, I grew up on tab target mmos and don't like the number of binds you have to set up for targets, especially at the high level where you are making macros that both target and use abilities.
I much prefer to just look at my target then set up a bunch of hot keys to switch around.
The argument here isn't so much about "this is how it's always been, why change it", so much as there are a number of people arguing for change whom have quite clearly never actually played a tab target game in the manner it was intended to be played.
I'm the opposite, I grew up on tab target mmos and don't like the number of binds you have to set up for targets, especially at the high level where you are making macros that both target and use abilities.
I much prefer to just look at my target then set up a bunch of hot keys to switch around.
I'm not a fan of any macro that both targets and uses an ability either. I can think of a few raid encounters where target macros (is, /target [specific mob name]) is useful, but in all situations that I can think of, there are ways to target the specific mob using the games built in target system (targeting the most recent mob to add you or your allies to their threat list deals with almost all of these situations).
This isn't a coincidence either, game developers develop content around the tools they have given players, if those tools include a robust target acquisition system, they will add in ways in which using that system correctly makes you a better player.
The fact that many players opt to cheese the content via macros is the fault of those players.
Edit to add; this is why I am kind of apprehensive about the combat system in Ashes. Rather than the end result being that players can pick and choose how they want to fight, I think what will happen is that the developers will have to develop content that takes the limitations of both systems in to account. They won't be able to develop content that requires players to correctly use a targeting system if they don't require players to even use that targeting system.
The end result, I think, is going to be that no matter whether you opt for action or tab combat, the content itself will be limited.
Yes I'm hoping for soft target locking for the action stance. Pressing tab would be fine as well but don't wanna press another key just to lock in a target. Other than that, if I play a healer for instance, I might go for a traditional MMO camera with mostly tab abilities.
Tab will always take more time to complete an identical action than a soft-target system, because you will always have at least one more button to press in the targeting process. That small bit of time can be the difference between a groupmate living or dying.
Factually incorrect. If someone is behind me I can press tab then my attack key faster than you can turn around, target, then press a key/click a button. Stop pretending like there’s some absolute advantage to one system over another.
You spend .05s to reach for tab, I take .05s to turn my camera and we both press an ability.
Tab is fine if aren’t capable of quick reflexes for some reason, but anyone with quick reflexes will just be hindered by the delays of having to tab to use an ability.
If it takes you a half second to reach for and tap a key then I’m not the one with poor reflexes.
Please make sure you actually read and understand what you’re replying to
.05s =/= .5s
Then you’re absolutely full of crap.
You read .05s as half a second and you’re really trying to act like I’m the one being ridiculous?
Yes. I missed where the decimal point was. Oh wow.
You on the other hand have the delusion that in 1/20th of a second you can spin around, target an enemy, and activate an attack. You either have absolutely no idea how fast that is or you’re trolling, either way you pulled it out of your ass.
For the sake of context, a really good frame rate for an MMO is 80 fps. That is extremely good. You’re saying that you can spin around and attack in the time it takes for a game to render 4 frames of animation.
Or get a stopwatch and time .05 seconds. Which is extremely difficult to do. Hell, on my phone I can’t even tap fast enough on one finger to start and stop a stopwatch in that time. The best I can get is .1 second. And you claim you have superhuman speed and can spin around and attack an enemy almost as fast as a computer can render it.
Again, you are completely full of it. I thought you were talking about a half a second because that’s physically possible. Now it is clear you have no idea what you’re saying, and any shred of credibility you want to claim is gone. Try not to make up completely insane and impossible claims next time you want to present an argument.
You have a poor grasp of how combat functions if you think the enemy is somehow invisible before I decide to attack it. I’m not reacting to a spontaneously appearing mob, I turn to pop off a quick hit to the enemy behind me when I see it charging an attack, then turn back to my primary target in one fluid motion. That’s a straightforward and easy thing to do, and altogether it might take a quarter of a second after noticing it to turn, attack, and turn back.
Go throw your temper tantrum elsewhere.
If you wanted a discussion, then you wouldn’t be complete ignoring the fact that I gave comparable speed to a tab click. And whether you acknowledge it or not, it’ll take more time to tab target for the same process I just described than it takes for action combat.
For every target swap, tab will always have an extra button to press.
He didn't mention invisible enemy anywhere in the quoted post. I read it, twice.
You're also fabricating unmentioned details in the scenario you're claiming you can accomplish. Assuming an opponent behind you is one you've had time to recognize and plan a proper response using tactics rather than a snap reaction (which is what Atama was initially setting up as a scenario).
On top of that, you are still claiming super human reaction speeds. It takes "the average human" (in this particular case, pretty much all healthy humans. Reaction times are very... consistent) .25 seconds to react to visual stimulus. In the time it takes a normal human to perceive a threat, you are able to perceive, register, plan a response, and execute that response? You may be able to pull that off if you react to an audio stimulus, which drops almost a full .1s off your reaction time, but that's assuming you can achieve precision aiming based on audio alone.
Furthermore, your response requires coordination between left and right hand. That means communication between left and right hemispheres of your brain. Tab+Action can be performed with just the left hand, meaning zero communication and zero chance to miss or foul key press sequence. How does this work out? When you use two hands to type on the keyboard, you'll often have typos. That's because the two halves of your brain must constantly communicate with each other to coordinate your key press sequence. You'll notice that the typos almost always involve key press sequence issues when pushing a key with one hand, then the next key with the other in rapid succession. That means YOUR response requires the initial reaction, followed by moving the mouse, timing the action perfectly in motion, and resuming the spin to re-engage another target. Sounds all smooth criminal like, but that's a really REALLY tough claim to prove there chief.
You might think "Well I have buttons on my mouse set for action buttons! So I'm only using one hand and thus one hemisphere!" Nope. You'd have to have the left half of your brain specializing in both spatial awareness AND calculation, which is incredibly rare. If you were one of those rare cases, you would not be wasting your life arguing on a forum, you'd be making YouTube videos of sinking baskets from the bleachers like a boss. Meaning you're two hemispheres are still having to communicate just because you are adding the aim to your action sequence, while tab target completely eliminates that step all together.
Atama is absolutely correct, in the scenario he presented, tab target is much quicker than spin+aim+action.
Your argument about brain communication is so funny, because all it does is prove you wrong.
I already can't wait.
...
So... Yes... As long as you can completely manipulate the hypothetical in any way, shape, or form that you want to best suit your specific argument. Then, absolutely, you win all arguments forever.
>.>
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AtamaMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I’ve never said anything remotely like “I like it more” and decided that’s an indicator of superiority. I did say action combat takes objectively less time, which is true because it doesn’t require button pressing to be allowed to use abilities. It also allows for at-will target changes, which it does because you’re not required to tab onto the next target when you can just look at it. It does not auto lock and make you incapable of missing, which is the biggest point in tab’s favor, but which shouldn’t really exist in a PvX game anyway but at least it won’t be including crowd control.
Of course you didn’t say “you like it more”, because then you’d have been correct about something in this thread. Instead it’s the same tired old misinformation based on crap you make up. Like the insane idea that it’s faster to move a mouse and target an enemy than to press a single key. I mean, seriously, are you just trolling?
There are many great reasons to prefer action combat like soft targeting. It feels more natural. It’s more engaging or exciting. It allows reflexes to be a factor. But your reasons are crap. They’re backwards. Your argument is the equivalent of claiming a bicycle is a better commute method than a car because it has a higher top speed.
I don’t hate action combat. I love it. I love soft targeting especially. But not because it’s faster or easier than tab targeting. It’s more difficult, it’s clunkier, because it forces you to do something yourself rather than automatically doing it. Slower and clunkier isn’t always worse though. It’s slower and clunkier to fly a dragon from one town to another rather than teleportation, but give me the dragon because it’s more fun.
I will probably be called a troll again for just responding, but why don't we just wait until A1/A2 to figure out which is better? I am sure that they will be trying multiple scenerios and people will be able to adjust their gameplay to what they prefer.
If someone doesn't like action (which I assume includes soft targeting), go 75% tab. If someone doesn't like tab, go 75% action. Then you only have to ignore 25% of your abilities to play exactly how you want.
TROLL!
>.>
The argument is kinda useless IMO. Neither system is inherently better then the other. No matter how you dress up any scenario.
Soft target requires more skill/talent, TAB is just more efficient in most ways as it eliminates the player component. TAB is less engaging in combat, while soft requires more effort and focus.
So TAB can be more efficient, but also more boring. Other then that, they're both systems that do the exact same thing.
This hybrid system is interesting because it lets you assign TAB or soft target to your abilities as you see fit... I can do fun things with that.
That means the system allows you to potentially target two people simultaneously. And not just as a primary/secondary ordeal.
Healers and support can devote offense to soft target, and heals to hard target. Tanks can always have a hard target set on whoever they want to use that defend skill on. Etc.
There are many great reasons to prefer action combat like soft targeting. It feels more natural. It’s more engaging or exciting. It allows reflexes to be a factor. But your reasons are crap. They’re backwards. Your argument is the equivalent of claiming a bicycle is a better commute method than a car because it has a higher top speed.
There absolutely are reasons for both combat types, as both have pros and cons.
So far in this thread I've spent the bulk of my posting pointing out some aspects of tab targeting that some seemed to be totally aware of, but have not really put in my thoughts too much about why I think tab targeting is better for an MMO.
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
In an MMO, players will be out and about for hours on end, especially those wanting to play and compete at the top end. Playing a game with action combat where you are having to maintain a heightened alert state for that long is not good, physically.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
The other issue I can see is something I alluded to in an edit on an above post. Both combat types have their advantages and disadvantages, and they have these in almost all areas.
Developers develop content based around the tools players have and what those tools allow players to do, but also avoiding adding things in to the game that those tools won't allow players to do.
With two sets of tools, that means the developers have two sets of things to specifically not put in to their content. This will only really play out on high end content, but it will add in more restrictions to what they can do than a game with only action or only tab target would have (and yes, I am aware that this is an argument against a hybrid system rather than an argument against tab or action).
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
It isn't about while you fight.
In Ashes, due to PvP, an enemy could be around literally any corner. This means if you are out of town, you need to be actively ready at all times for facing that enemy. Honestly, you could be out harvesting material for crafting, but that threat of PvP is still right there - all the time.
Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Not really.
Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat".
Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
The argument here isn't so much about "this is how it's always been, why change it", so much as there are a number of people arguing for change whom have quite clearly never actually played a tab target game in the manner it was intended to be played.
I'm the opposite, I grew up on tab target mmos and don't like the number of binds you have to set up for targets, especially at the high level where you are making macros that both target and use abilities.
I much prefer to just look at my target then set up a bunch of hot keys to switch around.
I'm not a fan of any macro that both targets and uses an ability either. I can think of a few raid encounters where target macros (is, /target [specific mob name]) is useful, but in all situations that I can think of, there are ways to target the specific mob using the games built in target system (targeting the most recent mob to add you or your allies to their threat list deals with almost all of these situations).
This isn't a coincidence either, game developers develop content around the tools they have given players, if those tools include a robust target acquisition system, they will add in ways in which using that system correctly makes you a better player.
The fact that many players opt to cheese the content via macros is the fault of those players.
Edit to add; this is why I am kind of apprehensive about the combat system in Ashes. Rather than the end result being that players can pick and choose how they want to fight, I think what will happen is that the developers will have to develop content that takes the limitations of both systems in to account. They won't be able to develop content that requires players to correctly use a targeting system if they don't require players to even use that targeting system.
The end result, I think, is going to be that no matter whether you opt for action or tab combat, the content itself will be limited.
The target/ability macros I was thinking of were usually used in pvp where you have seconds to cast an interrupt. at least that is where i remember it being.
Talking about macros wasn't really my point but if you are going to blame anyone for their existence, i think it falls on the devs as they are the ones that create a the system where linking multiple button clicks into one is optimal. I don't know if i'd call macros a problem but it is kind of frustrating if you all your abilities can be thrown in a priority queue to be optimal.
When talking about your concerns of encounter design, I don't know what you mean by correctly using tab as the system is pretty simple. Only way i can think you get better at is to select your desired target quicker which from talking with tab people, isn't something that a lot of them want as they seem to be opposed to the "twitch" combat they fear a free aim system will bring. This is just something I've observed though so i'm not sure if this holds true.
Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat.
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Not really.
Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat".
Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally.
To me, the difference is in the level of tension and anxiety that each system causes before combat starts.
With a tab based opening to combat, a player need not be any more ready than to press tab or tilde, and then begin attacking. There is no need for a heightened state of readiness at all, past a general awareness of your surroundings.
With action combat, you need to be ready to precision aim (or reasonably accurately aim) at a moments notice.
Now, this may well just be me. It could be the fact that I am so at home with tab target combat systems that I am able to go from slouching back in my chair listening to some music and drinking a pinot to fully engaged in combat in less time than it takes me to actually even think to put my wine down and not actually miss a beat.
Basically, what I am saying is that if I am not in combat in a tab target game, I am completely at rest, even if there is a real threat of attack.
Now, I'm not going to use my experiences in action combat games as reference, as I know full well that I haven't played as many action games as others would have. However, I have yet to see anyone claim they can go from an at rest state to fully engaged in combat in an action game as quickly and without missing anything.
Players in action games need to maintain less of a rest state (or more of a heightened state of readiness) in order to not be at a disadvantage should combat start without warning.
It may well be that when a player is at home with action combat as I am with tab target combat, they are able to be at that same rest state and still be able to initiate combat with the same level of ease - but as I said above, I've yet to see anyone make that claim. Even prominent streamers that make millions off of playing their games (an industry I will never understand) are at a heightened state the whole time.
This will only ever be a factor when players are out in the world for hours on end, and so for gamers that have no intention of this level of play it will never be an issue.
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I'm on record on these forums (in other threads) as being generally for the hybrid combat system. This still stands, even though I have discovered a few apprehensions since then (specifically about the potential implications for content variety).
I quite obviously personally prefer tab target combat (and will happily point out subtleties of said system to people that are less educated in it's finer points), but what *I* prefer doesn't necessarily mean that is what *I* think would be best for Ashes (not that what I think matters outside of the context of forum debates).
My reason for being all for a hybrid system - despite seeing real issues with it - is because of the potential if Intrepid manage to pull it off. I know a lot of MMO players that have children that play action games (almost exclusively Fortnite). If Intrepid manage to pull this combat system off, there is the potential for many of these action game players to make the switch to an MMO where they will have the opportunity to experience a game with real depth (talking outside of combat here - I don't think anyone would argue that almost any MMO on the market has more depth over all than any BR game).
The problem I see is that in order to allow for the pro's of both combat types, there is a real possibility that both systems will end up dumbed down in different aspects in order to prevent players of one type have an advantage over the other in different combat types.
To me, the only way it could ever work is if Intrepid - and players - accept the fact that different content types will greatly favor one combat type over the other.
If both Intrepid and players accept this one (probable) fact, then issues like the above with state of readiness will be significantly less of an issue - potentially even not an issue at all.
Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat.
I mean, yeah, but proper use of any system is something that separates good players from great players.
If an encounter spawns a group of 12 adds all with the same art assets and name, but with different abilities, and the tank needs to instantly target the correct one mob in that group of adds, if they know the correct target command/target option to target the mob with the abilities that they need to target first, then that tank is clearly going to be better than a tank that doesn't know the correct command/target option.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Not really.
Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat".
Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally.
To me, the difference is in the level of tension and anxiety that each system causes before combat starts.
With a tab based opening to combat, a player need not be any more ready than to press tab or tilde, and then begin attacking. There is no need for a heightened state of readiness at all, past a general awareness of your surroundings.
With action combat, you need to be ready to precision aim (or reasonably accurately aim) at a moments notice.
Now, this may well just be me. It could be the fact that I am so at home with tab target combat systems that I am able to go from slouching back in my chair listening to some music and drinking a pinot to fully engaged in combat in less time than it takes me to actually even think to put my wine down and not actually miss a beat.
Basically, what I am saying is that if I am not in combat in a tab target game, I am completely at rest, even if there is a real threat of attack.
Now, I'm not going to use my experiences in action combat games as reference, as I know full well that I haven't played as many action games as others would have. However, I have yet to see anyone claim they can go from an at rest state to fully engaged in combat in an action game as quickly and without missing anything.
Players in action games need to maintain less of a rest state (or more of a heightened state of readiness) in order to not be at a disadvantage should combat start without warning.
It may well be that when a player is at home with action combat as I am with tab target combat, they are able to be at that same rest state and still be able to initiate combat with the same level of ease - but as I said above, I've yet to see anyone make that claim. Even prominent streamers that make millions off of playing their games (an industry I will never understand) are at a heightened state the whole time.
This will only ever be a factor when players are out in the world for hours on end, and so for gamers that have no intention of this level of play it will never be an issue.
People play games like fortnite as well as other games that require aiming for hours. Go to twitch and watch them. I think you are exaggerating this point of how fatiguing it is. I've gone to many lans where we played games like halo, cod, pubg for 12-24+ hours. I don't think it's any more fatiguing then playing wow or swtor for that long. Hell, i don't think i noticed myself being more fatigued compared to me playing DnD for that long. It wasn't like i play pubg for an afternoon and need to pass out where if i played wow, i could keep going.
The taxing part of the game isn't going to be the aiming, it's going to be related to the activities you are doing and the tension that comes from that.
The tension and anxiety usually come from the situation and not necessarily the system. It's related to the stakes of the situation. Just because you can easily tab to your target, doesn't mean you situation is any less tense or anxious as your opponent has the same advantage. It's not like being jumped in a tab game isn't tense or causes no anxiety. You can still mess up in a tab system as well.
I'd bet you would be more tense and anxious being jumped in a full loot tab game then an action game with no death penalty.
In both systems, you can learn to be calm in high stake situations and react properly.
In addition to this, in ashes, not every ability will requires pin point accuracy. There will be defensive abilities you can put on yourself and don't require targets. You have place-able abilities like the wall or dark fog ability from the BR you can use to obscure your opponents line of site and make it harder for them to hit you. If you play a melee class, you will play similar to how you would in a tab system except you don't need a target, just run at your opponent and start swinging. There are also aoe abilities similar to meteor as well as shot gun like abilties similar to the drifter that are somewhat forgiving to aim.
You can also look other games that use free aim systems to see that just because a game requires aiming doesn't mean you need to be a CS master to play.
Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat.
I mean, yeah, but proper use of any system is something that separates good players from great players.
If an encounter spawns a group of 12 adds all with the same art assets and name, but with different abilities, and the tank needs to instantly target the correct one mob in that group of adds, if they know the correct target command/target option to target the mob with the abilities that they need to target first, then that tank is clearly going to be better than a tank that doesn't know the correct command/target option.
So you have a variety of buttons with targeting is based of the certain actions/types of actions i.e. casting spells, heal, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong but these buttons would seem to become increasingly useless outside of scripted encounters as the number of enemies increases. The more enemies you have outside of a scripted event, the more abilities they are using, and the less reliable these buttons would be. they seem like unique controls for scripted fights which i don't think is good design.
This is exactly what i didn't like about wow arena. I did not like having a variety of targeting buttons that were unique to arenas along with the silence/cc macros i mentioned. They were a bunch of buttons/controls that i only used in those an arena situation.
But remember @mcstackerson, Those streamers most often jump into the most action possible to keep viewers engaged and watching. The fatiguing, stressful part is walking through that clearing knowing at any second there could be an explosion of sound and action. And ratchet that up to 10 if you're carrying some valuable, or have a set goal you are trying to accomplish. I think @noaani has a point, that that level of engagement can be tiring, but i also think it would make the world so much more awesome. Towns become bastions of safety you really value. Finding an out of the way inn to relax and afk for a second becomes a great experience. You start asking around if a path is safe for travel or if pvpers have been patrolling it. I think it would really fuel immersion.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
But remember @mcstackerson, Those streamers most often jump into the most action possible to keep viewers engaged and watching. The fatiguing, stressful part is walking through that clearing knowing at any second there could be an explosion of sound and action. And ratchet that up to 10 if you're carrying some valuable, or have a set goal you are trying to accomplish. I think @noaani has a point, that that level of engagement can be tiring, but i also think it would make the world so much more awesome. Towns become bastions of safety you really value. Finding an out of the way inn to relax and afk for a second becomes a great experience. You start asking around if a path is safe for travel or if pvpers have been patrolling it. I think it would really fuel immersion.
My understanding of his argument is that he thinks the fatiguing part is having to aim, if the fatiguing part is waiting to be jumped then the combat system doesn't matter. I agree that the fatiguing part comes from other aspects like in your examples of walking through an open field and not knowing if someone is watching or when you will start being attacked.
NOTE: i don't think a game being more "fatiguing" is a bad thing, i just think this argument that the fatigue comes from having to aim is flawed.
I agree your comments of engagement and i'm excited for it too but back to the original argument, I think this engagement is coming more from the environment and the risks you are taking in that environment.
Okay I have to say something to this debate.
Both active and tab target have pros and cons.
Active pro:
-highly interactive
-intuitive targetting
-anti stealth to a large degree
-higher accuracy of movement
Active con:
-requires constant adjustments
-requires constant surveilance of the surroundings
-less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example)
-skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic)
What do i mean with that? Well, if we take a third person action combat like apoc for example... the player has to keep on his toes, enemies could be spawning behind him at any point. If you want to look around you, means that you have to turn your character midstride, which would slow you down while advancing. A active combat system also allows you to sweep for invisible enemies, if you know that a rogue is actually fighting you. You are not reliant on the syste to tell you that someone is there, you can just directly target him.
Tab pro:
-more tactical
-easier to keep your surroundings in check
-skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting
-doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things
Tab con:
-repettetive
-boring for dps characters
I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targetting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc).
Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple bosss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD
Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargetting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%.
Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targetting in my opinion.
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mcstackersonMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Okay I have to say something to this debate.
Both active and tab target have pros and cons.
Active pro:
-highly interactive
-intuitive targetting
-anti stealth to a large degree
-higher accuracy of movement
Active con:
-requires constant adjustments
-requires constant surveilance of the surroundings
-less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example)
-skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic)
What do i mean with that? Well, if we take a third person action combat like apoc for example... the player has to keep on his toes, enemies could be spawning behind him at any point. If you want to look around you, means that you have to turn your character midstride, which would slow you down while advancing. A active combat system also allows you to sweep for invisible enemies, if you know that a rogue is actually fighting you. You are not reliant on the syste to tell you that someone is there, you can just directly target him.
Tab pro:
-more tactical
-easier to keep your surroundings in check
-skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting
-doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things
Tab con:
-repettetive
-boring for dps characters
I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targetting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc).
Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple bosss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD
Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargetting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%.
Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targetting in my opinion.
I disagree. Some you mentioned as pros or cons I find either wrong or a difference of preference.
in action, i'm kind of neutral on your pros but i disagree with your cons:
-requires constant surveilance of the surroundings: i think this depends on the game, if you are playing a game you can be attacked at any moment, especially if the game has a low TTK and you can die quickly, you are going to want to constantly survey. If you have a tab setup in ashes, you are probably going to want to keep constant surveillance while doing caravans.
-less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example) I could make an argument against it as you can have the same FOV in both systems but at the very least, i think this is more of a difference then a con as more information is not necessarily a good thing. I could maybe argue if this is the case, it increases the value of communication and team work.
-skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic) this is most definitely a difference and one i prefer. I don't find click on raid frames to heal party members very compelling, i much prefer the more active approach to healing that a free aim system can bring as well as how it can affect group play.
As i said, how attentive you have to be has a lot more to do with the game and not the combat system. Just like in tab games, they have made free aim games where you can look 360 degrees while moving in one direction without impacting your movement speed.
I don't think the rogue/invis thing is much to talk about as it more has to do with how the combat was implemented. Yes, if you could free aim all your abilities in wow, it would make it easier knock rogues out of stealth but wow wasn't set up for free aim. If they designed wow with free aim in mind and didn't want people randomly pegging stealthies, they could have easily made it so these abilities passed through stealth units.
Your tab arguments, -tab being more tactical: I've seen this argument thrown around and i believe it stems from the games people have played that used either tab or free aim systems. All tab means is your abilities go to a target. Any ability you can think of in a tab game could be re-made in a free aim system. You might be able to say that combat in a tab games are more dependent on tactics and less on execution but I don't think that means that is more tactical. You can have the same tactics in a free aim system and i don't think the fact there is an increase dependency on player skill to execute those tactics means the game is less tactical.
-skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting this definitely comes down to preference. Not everyone wants to auto hit their abilities or be auto hit by others.
-doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things - If this is true, it'd say this is also a preference thing or even a con but i'd argue this is more dependent on the game. Just because you don't have to aim in a tab game doesn't mean you don't need to pay attention.
I really don't like this mentality that tanking/healing tab and dps free aim. It seems like a thought that was born from how MMOs are currently played and not open to new ideas. Not saying liking current MMO combat is bad just that i see a people saying that certain aspects of free aim gameplay is bad only because it plays different tab. If you don't like how it plays cool but at least try it out and rate it on it's own merits.
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NodoffMember, Phoenix Initiative, Royalty, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For me, it's simple... I LOATHE tab targeting MMOs, and want nothing to do with that style of combat. BDO has my favorite style of combat in an mmo to date, followed by Tera.
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Wandering MistModerator, Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha One
For me, it's simple... I LOATHE tab targeting MMOs, and want nothing to do with that style of combat. BDO has my favorite style of combat in an mmo to date, followed by Tera.
That's quite a strong opinion you have there @Nodoff . What don't you like about tab targeting combat systems?
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Undead CanuckMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Especially on the forum for a game where at least 25% of your abilities will be tab targeting...
People play games like fortnite as well as other games that require aiming for hours. Go to twitch and watch them. I think you are exaggerating this point of how fatiguing it is. I've gone to many lans where we played games like halo, cod, pubg for 12-24+ hours. I don't think it's any more fatiguing then playing wow or swtor for that long. Hell, i don't think i noticed myself being more fatigued compared to me playing DnD for that long. It wasn't like i play pubg for an afternoon and need to pass out where if i played wow, i could keep going.
People on twitch are making money off of it - or trying to make money off of it. The level of stress (and I use that term loosely) you subject yourself to in order to earn a living is higher than the level of stress you subject yourself to in order to wind down after earning that living elsewhere.
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
So you have a variety of buttons with targeting is based of the certain actions/types of actions i.e. casting spells, heal, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong but these buttons would seem to become increasingly useless outside of scripted encounters as the number of enemies increases.
I'll use the term "curated content" rather than scripted, as much of the content for at least two games I've spent a long time playing was created without an actual script.
That aside, you're correct.
This is why I said that things like this matter the most at the top end, where almost all content is curated.
At the lower end (solo, entry level groups), there are very few instances where you are even fighting more than one mob at a time, and there are never any times that I've seen (entry level group content - not all group content) where there is an actual need to fight one mob instead of another that is dictated by the content.
In this content, simple tab targeting is almost always adequate. This also plays in to why developers don't bother setting up targeting options to hotkeys for players - it is an advanced system that is only needed for advanced users.
I don't know many pieces of software with 200+ possible hotkey options that binds them all for users - most provide hotkeys for the most basic of functions, and then let advanced users set up hotkeys as they see fit.
I agree with the bulk of your post, but not this part - which is a weird thing as it is a factually correct statement.
The reason I disagree is because even though it is technically correct, it isn't a point worth making.
A develop could take an action combat game and replace the targeting system with a tab one. Thing is, if that action combat was designed to be fun an engaging, when it is moved to tab it will not be as fun and engaging.
The reason people like tab target games isn't because the targeting is easier, it is because the fun and engagement of the combat system is moved from targeting to other factors.
So while your above statement is technically true, it is not taking in to account the fact that every player and every developer understands that tab target combat requires other factors of combat to be highlighted in order to make it work.
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I can't imagine having the confidence to claim it doesn't take an excess of keybinds to have all your targeting options set up, and then immediately say it takes multiple sets of 2+ key combos to set up all your targeting options
lol 😂
Noaani, as usual, defending tab targeting with silly arguments. It's like he has some sort of tab target fetish.
1 - 'Tab target is ''far superior'' only if players set it up'. Right, that applies to anything you do in games...If the player sets it up for his/her play style, it'll be ''far superior''.
2 - 'Soft targeting sucks for when there are multiple targets in the same area'. Uhm, not really and not the point. Soft targeting was used as an example for 'locking' i.e the tab side of combat with 'action stance'. Not casual tab target locking which you will have anyway as a tab lover.
3 - 'A player that knows what they are doing will have all of their targeting options set up'...Right, so again, the player needs to set up their targeting options because the game is incapable of providing a system that fits all classes and play styles.
Tbh it just seems like you are coming with excuses for a decades old system because you are scared of change and want things to stay same.
Really? I’m the one who latched onto it?
It seems like it was important enough for you to repeatedly go back to it. In fact you based the strength of your argument on it, since my misreading of one decimal point was your only retort twice. Now that you admit you made it all up you’re trying to backpedal furiously. You’re even trying to pretend that I was the one who initially focused on it even though clearly you did. You can’t even keep track of what you’re saying in this thread, let alone put together a cohesive argument.
“I like it more” is not an objective statement, no matter how hard you pretend otherwise. Give it up.
With the exception of WoW and it's clones, that is what MMO's have been about since the 90's.
Game developers give players far more options than they would need, and players decide which of those options they want, and then work out how to make that fit with the resources they have on hand (keyboard and moue), and set it up to work for them as an individual.
This is why mice and keyboards that are marketed at MMO players have more programmable buttons than similar items marketed at any other segment.
In the context of an MMO player that has specifically set over 150 keybinds for their character, I'm quite confident in being able to state categorically that 12 total keybinds for targeting options isn't excessive.
Lmao, you were the first person who dedicated an entire comment to it, in which you didn’t even read it correctly. And I’ll tell you again, if you wanna get clever, maybe actually make sure you’re not wrong first.
I’ve never said anything remotely like “I like it more” and decided that’s an indicator of superiority. I did say action combat takes objectively less time, which is true because it doesn’t require button pressing to be allowed to use abilities. It also allows for at-will target changes, which it does because you’re not required to tab onto the next target when you can just look at it. It does not auto lock and make you incapable of missing, which is the biggest point in tab’s favor, but which shouldn’t really exist in a PvX game anyway but at least it won’t be including crowd control.
Tab is an outdated system. It’s not quicker, it’s a hand holding lock on, and if you’re healing you’ll end playing whack a mole on the group healthbars widget instead of watching your group in the fight.
There are several dozen targeting options that are available in most games. Some are so obscure they are only available via actual text command (usually /[command] typed in the chat box).
Now, with that many options, if the game tried to bind them all for everyone, it would be a nightmare to remember the ones you wanted, and people with standard keyboards and mice would likely have to be fingr contortionists to get to the specific target keybind they want.
So instad, developers put the options in the game and leave it up to players to bind the options they want at the time to the keys they want them bound to.
The argument here isn't so much about "this is how it's always been, why change it", so much as there are a number of people arguing for change whom have quite clearly never actually played a tab target game in the manner it was intended to be played.
I'm the opposite, I grew up on tab target mmos and don't like the number of binds you have to set up for targets, especially at the high level where you are making macros that both target and use abilities.
I much prefer to just look at my target then set up a bunch of hot keys to switch around.
I'm not a fan of any macro that both targets and uses an ability either. I can think of a few raid encounters where target macros (is, /target [specific mob name]) is useful, but in all situations that I can think of, there are ways to target the specific mob using the games built in target system (targeting the most recent mob to add you or your allies to their threat list deals with almost all of these situations).
This isn't a coincidence either, game developers develop content around the tools they have given players, if those tools include a robust target acquisition system, they will add in ways in which using that system correctly makes you a better player.
The fact that many players opt to cheese the content via macros is the fault of those players.
Edit to add; this is why I am kind of apprehensive about the combat system in Ashes. Rather than the end result being that players can pick and choose how they want to fight, I think what will happen is that the developers will have to develop content that takes the limitations of both systems in to account. They won't be able to develop content that requires players to correctly use a targeting system if they don't require players to even use that targeting system.
The end result, I think, is going to be that no matter whether you opt for action or tab combat, the content itself will be limited.
I already can't wait.
...
So... Yes... As long as you can completely manipulate the hypothetical in any way, shape, or form that you want to best suit your specific argument. Then, absolutely, you win all arguments forever.
>.>
There are many great reasons to prefer action combat like soft targeting. It feels more natural. It’s more engaging or exciting. It allows reflexes to be a factor. But your reasons are crap. They’re backwards. Your argument is the equivalent of claiming a bicycle is a better commute method than a car because it has a higher top speed.
I don’t hate action combat. I love it. I love soft targeting especially. But not because it’s faster or easier than tab targeting. It’s more difficult, it’s clunkier, because it forces you to do something yourself rather than automatically doing it. Slower and clunkier isn’t always worse though. It’s slower and clunkier to fly a dragon from one town to another rather than teleportation, but give me the dragon because it’s more fun.
TROLL!
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The argument is kinda useless IMO. Neither system is inherently better then the other. No matter how you dress up any scenario.
Soft target requires more skill/talent, TAB is just more efficient in most ways as it eliminates the player component. TAB is less engaging in combat, while soft requires more effort and focus.
So TAB can be more efficient, but also more boring. Other then that, they're both systems that do the exact same thing.
This hybrid system is interesting because it lets you assign TAB or soft target to your abilities as you see fit... I can do fun things with that.
That means the system allows you to potentially target two people simultaneously. And not just as a primary/secondary ordeal.
Healers and support can devote offense to soft target, and heals to hard target. Tanks can always have a hard target set on whoever they want to use that defend skill on. Etc.
Possibilities...
So far in this thread I've spent the bulk of my posting pointing out some aspects of tab targeting that some seemed to be totally aware of, but have not really put in my thoughts too much about why I think tab targeting is better for an MMO.
Almost all action games out there (all that I know of, at least) allow the player some respite. As an example, if you play a BR, you finish the match and there is no need to start the next one straight away.
In a persistent MMO, with essentially open PvP, this is not always going to be an option. If you are in an area where you can be attacked, you need to maintain a heightened state of readiness in order to deal with that attack when it comes.
In an MMO, players will be out and about for hours on end, especially those wanting to play and compete at the top end. Playing a game with action combat where you are having to maintain a heightened alert state for that long is not good, physically.
This leads me to believe that the players that want to compete at the top end in Ashes will all spec largely towards the tab target based abilities - at least for the first few things they will want to do in combat - as very few people would be able to physically maintain that heightened state of readiness for that length of time.
There are many ways this could play out post launch when players inevitably complain that tab target players have the advantage, all I know is that there will have to be changes to make action combat less reliant on initial reflexes than it is in other action games.
The other issue I can see is something I alluded to in an edit on an above post. Both combat types have their advantages and disadvantages, and they have these in almost all areas.
Developers develop content based around the tools players have and what those tools allow players to do, but also avoiding adding things in to the game that those tools won't allow players to do.
With two sets of tools, that means the developers have two sets of things to specifically not put in to their content. This will only really play out on high end content, but it will add in more restrictions to what they can do than a game with only action or only tab target would have (and yes, I am aware that this is an argument against a hybrid system rather than an argument against tab or action).
Hm interesting argument. It can be hard for the player to focus for long periods of time yes. But we won't be fighting 24/7. There's much to do. When we do fight however, I'd want to focus as much as possible.
It isn't about while you fight.
In Ashes, due to PvP, an enemy could be around literally any corner. This means if you are out of town, you need to be actively ready at all times for facing that enemy. Honestly, you could be out harvesting material for crafting, but that threat of PvP is still right there - all the time.
Being ready for action combat and being ready for tab combat are very different things.
Not really.
Being ready for combat just means higher tension and anxiety. Combat hasn't actually started yet, so there's know real difference between the two systems. It's also an irrelevant case for AoC because you can be ready with TAB abilities for quick responses to an ambush rather then being forced to "be ready for action combat".
Action combat is more engaging though, so it's more mentally fatiguing. You're correct about prolonged periods of it being tiring, but it's viable exercise believe it or not. Meaning if you stick to prolonged periods of action combat, you'll eventually acclimate to it and be "stronger" mentally.
Talking about macros wasn't really my point but if you are going to blame anyone for their existence, i think it falls on the devs as they are the ones that create a the system where linking multiple button clicks into one is optimal. I don't know if i'd call macros a problem but it is kind of frustrating if you all your abilities can be thrown in a priority queue to be optimal.
When talking about your concerns of encounter design, I don't know what you mean by correctly using tab as the system is pretty simple. Only way i can think you get better at is to select your desired target quicker which from talking with tab people, isn't something that a lot of them want as they seem to be opposed to the "twitch" combat they fear a free aim system will bring. This is just something I've observed though so i'm not sure if this holds true.
Encounters in tab games don't get their difficulty from the tab system itself and instead the difficulty comes from other aspects of the combat.
With a tab based opening to combat, a player need not be any more ready than to press tab or tilde, and then begin attacking. There is no need for a heightened state of readiness at all, past a general awareness of your surroundings.
With action combat, you need to be ready to precision aim (or reasonably accurately aim) at a moments notice.
Now, this may well just be me. It could be the fact that I am so at home with tab target combat systems that I am able to go from slouching back in my chair listening to some music and drinking a pinot to fully engaged in combat in less time than it takes me to actually even think to put my wine down and not actually miss a beat.
Basically, what I am saying is that if I am not in combat in a tab target game, I am completely at rest, even if there is a real threat of attack.
Now, I'm not going to use my experiences in action combat games as reference, as I know full well that I haven't played as many action games as others would have. However, I have yet to see anyone claim they can go from an at rest state to fully engaged in combat in an action game as quickly and without missing anything.
Players in action games need to maintain less of a rest state (or more of a heightened state of readiness) in order to not be at a disadvantage should combat start without warning.
It may well be that when a player is at home with action combat as I am with tab target combat, they are able to be at that same rest state and still be able to initiate combat with the same level of ease - but as I said above, I've yet to see anyone make that claim. Even prominent streamers that make millions off of playing their games (an industry I will never understand) are at a heightened state the whole time.
This will only ever be a factor when players are out in the world for hours on end, and so for gamers that have no intention of this level of play it will never be an issue.
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I'm on record on these forums (in other threads) as being generally for the hybrid combat system. This still stands, even though I have discovered a few apprehensions since then (specifically about the potential implications for content variety).
I quite obviously personally prefer tab target combat (and will happily point out subtleties of said system to people that are less educated in it's finer points), but what *I* prefer doesn't necessarily mean that is what *I* think would be best for Ashes (not that what I think matters outside of the context of forum debates).
My reason for being all for a hybrid system - despite seeing real issues with it - is because of the potential if Intrepid manage to pull it off. I know a lot of MMO players that have children that play action games (almost exclusively Fortnite). If Intrepid manage to pull this combat system off, there is the potential for many of these action game players to make the switch to an MMO where they will have the opportunity to experience a game with real depth (talking outside of combat here - I don't think anyone would argue that almost any MMO on the market has more depth over all than any BR game).
The problem I see is that in order to allow for the pro's of both combat types, there is a real possibility that both systems will end up dumbed down in different aspects in order to prevent players of one type have an advantage over the other in different combat types.
To me, the only way it could ever work is if Intrepid - and players - accept the fact that different content types will greatly favor one combat type over the other.
If both Intrepid and players accept this one (probable) fact, then issues like the above with state of readiness will be significantly less of an issue - potentially even not an issue at all.
If an encounter spawns a group of 12 adds all with the same art assets and name, but with different abilities, and the tank needs to instantly target the correct one mob in that group of adds, if they know the correct target command/target option to target the mob with the abilities that they need to target first, then that tank is clearly going to be better than a tank that doesn't know the correct command/target option.
People play games like fortnite as well as other games that require aiming for hours. Go to twitch and watch them. I think you are exaggerating this point of how fatiguing it is. I've gone to many lans where we played games like halo, cod, pubg for 12-24+ hours. I don't think it's any more fatiguing then playing wow or swtor for that long. Hell, i don't think i noticed myself being more fatigued compared to me playing DnD for that long. It wasn't like i play pubg for an afternoon and need to pass out where if i played wow, i could keep going.
The taxing part of the game isn't going to be the aiming, it's going to be related to the activities you are doing and the tension that comes from that.
The tension and anxiety usually come from the situation and not necessarily the system. It's related to the stakes of the situation. Just because you can easily tab to your target, doesn't mean you situation is any less tense or anxious as your opponent has the same advantage. It's not like being jumped in a tab game isn't tense or causes no anxiety. You can still mess up in a tab system as well.
I'd bet you would be more tense and anxious being jumped in a full loot tab game then an action game with no death penalty.
In both systems, you can learn to be calm in high stake situations and react properly.
In addition to this, in ashes, not every ability will requires pin point accuracy. There will be defensive abilities you can put on yourself and don't require targets. You have place-able abilities like the wall or dark fog ability from the BR you can use to obscure your opponents line of site and make it harder for them to hit you. If you play a melee class, you will play similar to how you would in a tab system except you don't need a target, just run at your opponent and start swinging. There are also aoe abilities similar to meteor as well as shot gun like abilties similar to the drifter that are somewhat forgiving to aim.
You can also look other games that use free aim systems to see that just because a game requires aiming doesn't mean you need to be a CS master to play.
So you have a variety of buttons with targeting is based of the certain actions/types of actions i.e. casting spells, heal, etc. Correct me if i'm wrong but these buttons would seem to become increasingly useless outside of scripted encounters as the number of enemies increases. The more enemies you have outside of a scripted event, the more abilities they are using, and the less reliable these buttons would be. they seem like unique controls for scripted fights which i don't think is good design.
This is exactly what i didn't like about wow arena. I did not like having a variety of targeting buttons that were unique to arenas along with the silence/cc macros i mentioned. They were a bunch of buttons/controls that i only used in those an arena situation.
NOTE: i don't think a game being more "fatiguing" is a bad thing, i just think this argument that the fatigue comes from having to aim is flawed.
I agree your comments of engagement and i'm excited for it too but back to the original argument, I think this engagement is coming more from the environment and the risks you are taking in that environment.
Both active and tab target have pros and cons.
Active pro:
-highly interactive
-intuitive targetting
-anti stealth to a large degree
-higher accuracy of movement
Active con:
-requires constant adjustments
-requires constant surveilance of the surroundings
-less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example)
-skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic)
What do i mean with that? Well, if we take a third person action combat like apoc for example... the player has to keep on his toes, enemies could be spawning behind him at any point. If you want to look around you, means that you have to turn your character midstride, which would slow you down while advancing. A active combat system also allows you to sweep for invisible enemies, if you know that a rogue is actually fighting you. You are not reliant on the syste to tell you that someone is there, you can just directly target him.
Tab pro:
-more tactical
-easier to keep your surroundings in check
-skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting
-doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things
Tab con:
-repettetive
-boring for dps characters
I for one would say that both systems are good for the people that they target. Tab targetting is better for tanks and healers, who have to keep their surroundings in check, and where it would be counter productive to target all their skills manually. Healers for example, could give through important information to dps classes (like boss cds, terrain changes, raid cd, etc).
Active combat was literally designed for dps classes. It gives them the high action feeling that they need to be engaged with their role. I have to admit that i nearly began to snooze away during multiple bosss fights in wow, because it is not really engaging to play a dps once you got your rotation memorized as muscle memories. XD
Dont forget, we will always be able to choose how much action and tabtargetting we will have, with a min of one being at least 25%.
Open world would be easier to traverse in in tab targetting in my opinion.
I disagree. Some you mentioned as pros or cons I find either wrong or a difference of preference.
in action, i'm kind of neutral on your pros but i disagree with your cons:
-requires constant surveilance of the surroundings: i think this depends on the game, if you are playing a game you can be attacked at any moment, especially if the game has a low TTK and you can die quickly, you are going to want to constantly survey. If you have a tab setup in ashes, you are probably going to want to keep constant surveillance while doing caravans.
-less informative in high action combat situations (raid or dungeon crawling for example) I could make an argument against it as you can have the same FOV in both systems but at the very least, i think this is more of a difference then a con as more information is not necessarily a good thing. I could maybe argue if this is the case, it increases the value of communication and team work.
-skills require you to target them (healing could become problematic) this is most definitely a difference and one i prefer. I don't find click on raid frames to heal party members very compelling, i much prefer the more active approach to healing that a free aim system can bring as well as how it can affect group play.
As i said, how attentive you have to be has a lot more to do with the game and not the combat system. Just like in tab games, they have made free aim games where you can look 360 degrees while moving in one direction without impacting your movement speed.
I don't think the rogue/invis thing is much to talk about as it more has to do with how the combat was implemented. Yes, if you could free aim all your abilities in wow, it would make it easier knock rogues out of stealth but wow wasn't set up for free aim. If they designed wow with free aim in mind and didn't want people randomly pegging stealthies, they could have easily made it so these abilities passed through stealth units.
Your tab arguments,
-tab being more tactical: I've seen this argument thrown around and i believe it stems from the games people have played that used either tab or free aim systems. All tab means is your abilities go to a target. Any ability you can think of in a tab game could be re-made in a free aim system. You might be able to say that combat in a tab games are more dependent on tactics and less on execution but I don't think that means that is more tactical. You can have the same tactics in a free aim system and i don't think the fact there is an increase dependency on player skill to execute those tactics means the game is less tactical.
-skills will automatically land on your enemy and dont require your targetting this definitely comes down to preference. Not everyone wants to auto hit their abilities or be auto hit by others.
-doesnt require you to spend too much energy in combat, and lets you focus on other things - If this is true, it'd say this is also a preference thing or even a con but i'd argue this is more dependent on the game. Just because you don't have to aim in a tab game doesn't mean you don't need to pay attention.
I really don't like this mentality that tanking/healing tab and dps free aim. It seems like a thought that was born from how MMOs are currently played and not open to new ideas. Not saying liking current MMO combat is bad just that i see a people saying that certain aspects of free aim gameplay is bad only because it plays different tab. If you don't like how it plays cool but at least try it out and rate it on it's own merits.
That's quite a strong opinion you have there @Nodoff . What don't you like about tab targeting combat systems?
However, as I said in the post where I first bought this up, games like BR's and even online FPS games all have a built in rest period. You aren't on alert for hours on end, you are on alert while you are in game, and not even for all of that - usually.
With an MMO with open PvP like Ashes, if you are not in town, you are on alert. This will be for significantly longer periods than in any of the examples you gave, even if players play those games for longer.
It's like the difference between working a 10 hour shift without a break, or a 16 hours shift with three or four breaks. The 16 hour shift is easier.
I'll use the term "curated content" rather than scripted, as much of the content for at least two games I've spent a long time playing was created without an actual script.
That aside, you're correct.
This is why I said that things like this matter the most at the top end, where almost all content is curated.
At the lower end (solo, entry level groups), there are very few instances where you are even fighting more than one mob at a time, and there are never any times that I've seen (entry level group content - not all group content) where there is an actual need to fight one mob instead of another that is dictated by the content.
In this content, simple tab targeting is almost always adequate. This also plays in to why developers don't bother setting up targeting options to hotkeys for players - it is an advanced system that is only needed for advanced users.
I don't know many pieces of software with 200+ possible hotkey options that binds them all for users - most provide hotkeys for the most basic of functions, and then let advanced users set up hotkeys as they see fit.
The reason I disagree is because even though it is technically correct, it isn't a point worth making.
A develop could take an action combat game and replace the targeting system with a tab one. Thing is, if that action combat was designed to be fun an engaging, when it is moved to tab it will not be as fun and engaging.
The reason people like tab target games isn't because the targeting is easier, it is because the fun and engagement of the combat system is moved from targeting to other factors.
So while your above statement is technically true, it is not taking in to account the fact that every player and every developer understands that tab target combat requires other factors of combat to be highlighted in order to make it work.